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Re: Morimarusa

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  • dgkilday57
    ... I think this had the same origin as the usual heaven , and being used for painted ceiling panel created some confusion, which was solved by
    Message 1 of 241 , Jan 7, 2010
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      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
      > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > [...]
      > > >
      > > > Here's a *very* tentative idea:
      > > >
      > > > I have a suspicion the Germanic "heaven" is a loan
      > > >
      > > > Wortschatz der Germanischen Spracheinheit:
      > > > 'hemina, hemila m. Himmel, Zimmerdecke. g. himins m. Himmel;
      > > > an. himinn m. dass.;
      > > > as. heBan und himil m.,
      > > > afries. himel, himul,
      > > > ags. heofon m., engl. heaven;
      > > > ahd. himil m. Himmel, Zimmerdecke,
      > > > mnd. himel, nhd. Himmel.
      > > >
      > > > Davon abgeleitet
      > > > ahd. himilizi, himilze,
      > > > mhd. himelze, himelz n. Zimmerdecke, Baldachin,
      > > > mnd. hemelte Zimmerdecke, ndl. gehemelte Gaumen (aus
      > > > he-militia-).
      > > > Vgl. gr. kmélethron. (73:8)'
      > > >
      > > > 1) the odd suffix -et-,
      > > > 2) the inlaut alternation w/m and
      > > > 3) the auslaut alternation l/n (some kind of heteroclitic)
      > > > sets it apart from other Germanic words (except for *litel- and
      > > > *mikel- also having property 3)
      > >
      > > First things last. In <himilizzi> usw. the Gmc. suffix *-itja
      > > apparently functions as a collective, parallel to its use in OE
      > > <Elmet> 'Elmwood' (cf. Kluge, Nom. Stammb. 2. Aufl. 36). The sense
      > > of <himil> here was neither 'heaven' nor 'ceiling', but 'painted
      > > panel', and an assembly of these constituted one ceiling, as
      > > indicated by a gloss of Hrabanus Maurus:
      > >
      > > "Laquearia sunt que cameram subtegunt et ornant que et lacunaria
      > > dicuntur pro quibus nos de ligno tabulas pingimus et _himil_
      > > nuncupamus."
      >
      > Some connection with *kumul-? Anyway, claiming IE-ness on the basis of a tree name is risky.

      I think this <himil> had the same origin as the usual 'heaven', and being used for 'painted ceiling panel' created some confusion, which was solved by using the collective suffix. A tantum plurale would not have fixed anything because there are several 'heavens' in most theologies anyway.

      The tree-name 'elm' is IE, but the rarity of the formation is a problem. As for Udolph's *Bro:m-ith- and other OE collectives in -ithi-, -ithja- (not -itja-), these could be adaptations of an abstract suffix. I fail to grasp Udolph's thesis about the relation between English and continental -ithi-, as these must have been brought by post-Grimm Gmc.-speakers anyway.

      > You will enjoy this:
      > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/57163
      > (the tinyurl's don't work, they may have referred to something in the files section; but at least check this out:
      > http://tinyurl.com/yarcpvg
      > )
      > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/57206
      > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/57238
      > Or absorbed Venetic substrate in Hispanic Gothic?
      > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/57238
      > Apparently Udolph missed them, since he assumed the suffix was Germanic.

      Well, maps don't lie, and there's more to Gmc. suffixation than I can find in Kluge. I'm skeptical about dividing -(i)ta:ni: into two suffixes. Time is running out, and I'll try to address the other issues another day.

      DGK
    • Tavi
      ... Irish ... ethnonym ... (preferably in its ASCII or Latin-1 form), modified only where you think it misidentifies the correspondences of the sounds or
      Message 241 of 241 , May 11, 2012
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Wordingham"
        <richard.wordingham@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Delamarre objects to this that *wºlkW-o- should have given Old
        Irish
        > > **flech and Gaulish **ulipos, so he links the Irish word to the
        ethnonym
        > > Uolcos 'falcon', which he relates to Latin falco: < *g^wol-k-
        > > (traditional *g^h), from a root *g^wel- 'to curve'.
        >
        > In the interests of clarity, please use the standard spelling
        (preferably in its ASCII or Latin-1 form), modified only where you think
        it misidentifies the correspondences of the sounds or phonemes involved.
        If you need to make a point about what you think the actual
        pronunciation was, use square brackets ([]). (I am speaking as a
        member, not a moderator.)
        >
        I don't think this is a matter of transcription/encoding as much as of
        the actual choice of the reconstructed phonemes. For reasons I stated
        before, I think classical "voiced aspirated" stops (series III) were
        actually *plain* voiced, so there's no point in perpetuating their
        corresponding symbols. IMHO, there're two possible choices for the PIE
        stop system, depending on if one includes glottalics or not:

        series I - voiceless (phonologically aspirated) / voiceless aspirated
        series II - glottalic / (unaspirated) voiceless
        series III - voiced

        The first system is the one reconstructed for Proto-Kartvelian and the
        second one for Proto-Altaic. The latter has the advantage as being more
        flexible as regarding the outcome of earlier glottalics, variable among
        paleo-dialects.
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