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Re: [tied] hound

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  • Richard Wordingham
    Note that this post is encoded in UTF-8. ... No. Slavic *g goes back to PIE *g, *gW, *gH and *gHW. Gothic goes back to PIE *k^, *k and, in Gothic final
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 7, 2009
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      Note that this post is encoded in UTF-8.

      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Anatoly Guzaev <anatoly_guzaev@...> wrote:
      >
      > It seems that Gothic fra-hinþan is a cognate of Russian про-гонять/progonjat' (chase, expell, гнаться 'to chase'; SC progoniti, Cz honit, hnát 'chase').

      No. Slavic *g goes back to PIE *g, *gW, *gH and *gHW. Gothic <h> goes back to PIE *k^, *k and, in Gothic final position only, *g^H and *gH. (I trust you weren't comparing the Gothic <þ>, which is part of the stem, with the Slavic infinitive ending.) This all you are left with that match are a rare place of articulation (phonation is inconsistent), an uncertain vowel and /n/.

      Richard.
    • Piotr Gasiorowski
      ... Nope. The Slavic verbs are derived from the root *gWHen- strike (cf. the old present of *gUnati, *z^enoN I chase away ). *gonjoN, *goniti chase,
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 7, 2009
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        On 2009-10-07 07:02, Anatoly Guzaev wrote:
        >
        >
        > It seems that Gothic /fra-hinþan/ is a cognate of Russian/
        > про-гонять/progonjat'/ (chase, expell,/ гнаться/ 'to chase'; SC/
        > progoniti/, Cz /honit, hnát/ 'chase').

        Nope. The Slavic verbs are derived from the root *gWHen- 'strike' (cf.
        the old present of *gUnati, *z^enoN 'I chase away'). *gonjoN, *goniti
        'chase, follow' comes from the iterative *gWHon-eje/o- 'strike
        repeatedly'. Germanic has several nouns derived from the same root, e.g.
        *Gunþiz < *gWHn.'-ti- 'battle' (OIc. gunnr, OE gu:þ), but no primary verb.

        Piotr
      • dgkilday57
        ... ===== I found some examples in which Gothic , with verbs of motion, indicates or implies the end of the motion, or the permanence of the result.
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
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          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "andythewiros" <anjarrette@...> wrote:
          >
          > In case no one else has done so, I just wanted to comment that your idea of Gmc *hunDa- being related to Gothic <frahinþan> makes a lot of sense and is quite plausible. The connection with words meaning 'point, sting, goad, spur, pole, spear, shaft,to prick, to goad, to sting, to incite', although plausible in light of the effect of the Skt prefix pra-, I find less likely because there is little of the Gmc sense of 'capture, imprison' or 'obtain, reach'. However the Gmc meanings can easily be related to the 'hand' as that which catches or that which obtains. The *k^n.tó can then be what facilitates catching game, as opposed to chasing it. Just my two cents' worth. I think your theory may require more substantiation of the equation of Skt. pra- with Gmc fra-.
          >
          =====

          I found some examples in which Gothic <fra->, with verbs of motion, indicates or implies the end of the motion, or the permanence of the result.

          <qiman> 'to come'; <fra-qiman> 'to come to the end of, use up, consume'. In 2 Corinthians 12:1 <qima> renders Greek <eleúsomai> 'I will come'; in 12:15 <fraqima> renders <dapané:so:> 'I will consume', and <fraqimada> renders <ekdapane:thé:somai> 'I will be completely consumed'. In Luke 8:41 <qam> renders <êlthen> 'he came'; in 8:43 <fraqam> renders the verb expressed in Greek by the participle <prosanaló:sa:sa> 'having used up (besides)'.

          <niman> 'to take, pick up, remove'; <fra-niman> 'to take to oneself, take possession of, acquire'. In Luke 17:31 <niman> renders <ârai> 'to pick up' (household objects); in 19:12 <franiman> renders <labeîn heautôi> 'to take for himself, take possession of' (a kingdom).

          <wairpan> 'to cast (away)'; <fra-wairpan> 'to throw (abroad), scatter'. In Matthew 5:29&30 <wairp> renders <bále> 'cast!' (your scandalizing eye and hand away from you); in 9:36 <frawaurpanai> renders <êsan eri:mménoi> 'they had been scattered' (the crowds, into various habitations).

          <bi-rinnan> 'to run around, surround, encircle'; <fra-rinnan> 'to run into, encounter'. In John 10:24 <birunnun> renders <ekúklo:san> 'they encircled'; in Luke 10:30 <frarann> renders <periépesen> 'he fell among' (bandits; had the Good Samaritan not shown up, his run would have ended permanently).

          <itan> 'to eat' (moving food into one's belly); <fra-itan> 'to eat up, devour, consume completely'. In Luke 17:27&28 <etun> renders <é:sthion> 'they were eating'; in 15:30 <fret> renders the verb expressed by <kataphagó:n> 'having devoured'.

          Now in 2 Cor. 10:5 <frahinþandans> renders the nom. pl. pres. act. part. <aikhmalo:tízontes> 'capturing, making prisoner' (literally at spear-point, from <aikhmé:> 'spear-point, spear'). The Greek phrase is peculiar, even for Paul: <aikhmalo:tízontes pân nóe:ma eis tè:n hupakoè:n toû Khristoû> 'capturing every thought into the obedience of Christ'. The imagery is of mental warriors driving thoughts at spear-point into confinement. Possibly Ulfilas chose <fra-hinþan> to render <aikhmalo:tízein> because some noun derived from *k^ent-, such as *hinþra- or *hinþan-, was current in his Gothic as 'spear-point' or 'spear'. Again in Romans 7:23 we find <frahinþando> for the acc. sg. <aikhmalo:tízonta>, and in Luke 4:19 the dat. pl. <aikhmaló:tois> 'captives of the spear, prisoners of war' is rendered by the dat. pl. <frahunþanaim> of the pret. pass. part. of <frahinþan>, not as though the original were *e:ikhmalo:tisménois, but because <aikhmálo:tos> is effectively the verbal adjective of <aikhmêi halônai> 'to be captured at spear-point'.

          If my view on *hunDa- is to be maintained, it seems necessary to postulate 'incite into motion' vel sim. as the original sense of *k^ent-. To our knowledge, the domestication of dogs for use in hunting preceded the breeding of domestic cattle. Then *k^n.tó- 'facilitator of incitation (of game), hunting dog, hound' could belong to this earlier stage, and might well be the earliest Indo-European word for 'domestic dog', preserved in Germanic as *hunDa-, but replaced elsewhere by a derivative of *pék^u- 'livestock'. Stockbreeders required dogs of a different temperament, who could keep herds together without inciting them into a stampede. For inciting individual animals to move, pointed goads were necessary. Such derivatives of *k^ent- as Greek <kéntron> and <kontós>, and Latvian <si:ts>, could originally have referred to goads (and the shafts upon which they were mounted) for prodding cattle, and belong to this later stage. These derivatives would have acted back on the sense of the primary verb, giving the specialization 'incite by pricking, prick, goad'. In Gothic I suspect that the simplex <-hinþan> in a military context meant something like 'to incite with a spear', either by actual poking or by threatening to do so, as armed men herding prisoners. As in the other examples, <frahinþan> would then indicate the motion going to completion, 'to incite into confinement, take captive at spear-point'. And of course the etymological connection with <hunds> would no longer be felt by Gothic-speakers, having been forgotten long ago.

          As for 'hand', until something better comes along, I will stick with a derivative of *ken-dH- 'to make compressed, squeeze, pinch' vel sim. as outlined in another thread. Hands may indeed catch (and incite) but the MAIN thing they do is grasp, grip, squeeze, etc.

          DGK
        • andythewiros
          ... Your full explanation is excellent and makes me see your point very clearly, and I assent to it. ... I will try to find that thread, unless you can point
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
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            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "andythewiros" <anjarrette@> wrote:
            > >
            > > In case no one else has done so, I just wanted to comment that your idea of Gmc *hunDa- being related to Gothic <frahinþan> makes a lot of sense and is quite plausible. The connection with words meaning 'point, sting, goad, spur, pole, spear, shaft,to prick, to goad, to sting, to incite', although plausible in light of the effect of the Skt prefix pra-, I find less likely because there is little of the Gmc sense of 'capture, imprison' or 'obtain, reach'. However the Gmc meanings can easily be related to the 'hand' as that which catches or that which obtains. The *k^n.tó can then be what facilitates catching game, as opposed to chasing it. Just my two cents' worth. I think your theory may require more substantiation of the equation of Skt. pra- with Gmc fra-.
            > >
            > =====
            >
            > I found some examples in which Gothic <fra->, with verbs of motion, indicates or implies the end of the motion, or the permanence of the result.
            >
            > <qiman> 'to come'; <fra-qiman> 'to come to the end of, use up, consume'. In 2 Corinthians 12:1 <qima> renders Greek <eleúsomai> 'I will come'; in 12:15 <fraqima> renders <dapané:so:> 'I will consume', and <fraqimada> renders <ekdapane:thé:somai> 'I will be completely consumed'. In Luke 8:41 <qam> renders <êlthen> 'he came'; in 8:43 <fraqam> renders the verb expressed in Greek by the participle <prosanaló:sa:sa> 'having used up (besides)'.
            >
            > <niman> 'to take, pick up, remove'; <fra-niman> 'to take to oneself, take possession of, acquire'. In Luke 17:31 <niman> renders <ârai> 'to pick up' (household objects); in 19:12 <franiman> renders <labeîn heautôi> 'to take for himself, take possession of' (a kingdom).
            >
            > <wairpan> 'to cast (away)'; <fra-wairpan> 'to throw (abroad), scatter'. In Matthew 5:29&30 <wairp> renders <bále> 'cast!' (your scandalizing eye and hand away from you); in 9:36 <frawaurpanai> renders <êsan eri:mménoi> 'they had been scattered' (the crowds, into various habitations).
            >
            > <bi-rinnan> 'to run around, surround, encircle'; <fra-rinnan> 'to run into, encounter'. In John 10:24 <birunnun> renders <ekúklo:san> 'they encircled'; in Luke 10:30 <frarann> renders <periépesen> 'he fell among' (bandits; had the Good Samaritan not shown up, his run would have ended permanently).
            >
            > <itan> 'to eat' (moving food into one's belly); <fra-itan> 'to eat up, devour, consume completely'. In Luke 17:27&28 <etun> renders <é:sthion> 'they were eating'; in 15:30 <fret> renders the verb expressed by <kataphagó:n> 'having devoured'.
            >
            > Now in 2 Cor. 10:5 <frahinþandans> renders the nom. pl. pres. act. part. <aikhmalo:tízontes> 'capturing, making prisoner' (literally at spear-point, from <aikhmé:> 'spear-point, spear'). The Greek phrase is peculiar, even for Paul: <aikhmalo:tízontes pân nóe:ma eis tè:n hupakoè:n toû Khristoû> 'capturing every thought into the obedience of Christ'. The imagery is of mental warriors driving thoughts at spear-point into confinement. Possibly Ulfilas chose <fra-hinþan> to render <aikhmalo:tízein> because some noun derived from *k^ent-, such as *hinþra- or *hinþan-, was current in his Gothic as 'spear-point' or 'spear'. Again in Romans 7:23 we find <frahinþando> for the acc. sg. <aikhmalo:tízonta>, and in Luke 4:19 the dat. pl. <aikhmaló:tois> 'captives of the spear, prisoners of war' is rendered by the dat. pl. <frahunþanaim> of the pret. pass. part. of <frahinþan>, not as though the original were *e:ikhmalo:tisménois, but because <aikhmálo:tos> is effectively the verbal adjective of <aikhmêi halônai> 'to be captured at spear-point'.
            >
            > If my view on *hunDa- is to be maintained, it seems necessary to postulate 'incite into motion' vel sim. as the original sense of *k^ent-. To our knowledge, the domestication of dogs for use in hunting preceded the breeding of domestic cattle. Then *k^n.tó- 'facilitator of incitation (of game), hunting dog, hound' could belong to this earlier stage, and might well be the earliest Indo-European word for 'domestic dog', preserved in Germanic as *hunDa-, but replaced elsewhere by a derivative of *pék^u- 'livestock'. Stockbreeders required dogs of a different temperament, who could keep herds together without inciting them into a stampede. For inciting individual animals to move, pointed goads were necessary. Such derivatives of *k^ent- as Greek <kéntron> and <kontós>, and Latvian <si:ts>, could originally have referred to goads (and the shafts upon which they were mounted) for prodding cattle, and belong to this later stage. These derivatives would have acted back on the sense of the primary verb, giving the specialization 'incite by pricking, prick, goad'. In Gothic I suspect that the simplex <-hinþan> in a military context meant something like 'to incite with a spear', either by actual poking or by threatening to do so, as armed men herding prisoners. As in the other examples, <frahinþan> would then indicate the motion going to completion, 'to incite into confinement, take captive at spear-point'. And of course the etymological connection with <hunds> would no longer be felt by Gothic-speakers, having been forgotten long ago.


            Your full explanation is excellent and makes me see your point very clearly, and I assent to it.

            >
            > As for 'hand', until something better comes along, I will stick with a derivative of *ken-dH- 'to make compressed, squeeze, pinch' vel sim. as outlined in another thread. Hands may indeed catch (and incite) but the MAIN thing they do is grasp, grip, squeeze, etc.
            >
            > DGK
            >

            I will try to find that thread, unless you can point me to it here. The explanation above makes it clear that <frahinþan> is basically associated with 'spear/goad' like the Greek word it translates, so I guess I will have to retract my hypothesis about its relation to 'hand'.

            Andrew
          • andythewiros
            ... (I found the thread in which the above was mentioned). Not that my opinion counts for much, but just based on first impressions I would say something
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 12, 2009
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              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > As for 'hand', until something better comes along, I will stick with a derivative of *ken-dH- 'to make compressed, squeeze, pinch' vel sim. as outlined in another thread. Hands may indeed catch (and incite) but the MAIN thing they do is grasp, grip, squeeze, etc.
              >
              > DGK
              >

              (I found the thread in which the above was mentioned). Not that my opinion counts for much, but just based on first impressions I would say something better has to come along: "pinch, squeeze" are not frequently used verbs or concepts (as it seems to me), and hardly the immediate verbs that come to mind when one thinks of "hand" ("grasp, grip, catch, take, give, hold, have", I would say, come to mind much more immediately when one thinks of "hand"). "Compress" is also an action that is not frequently performed by the hands, it seems to me, except when making a fist.

              I still think the popular but rejected association with *dek^mt "ten" is more likely original.

              Andrew
            • Torsten
              ... Perhaps we shouldn t search for the derivation process within IE. Here are some glosses for your enjoyment: Uralisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch: kunta 1
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 13, 2009
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                > If my view on *hunDa- is to be maintained, it seems necessary to
                > postulate 'incite into motion' vel sim. as the original sense of
                > *k^ent-. To our knowledge, the domestication of dogs for use in
                > hunting preceded the breeding of domestic cattle. Then *k^n.tó-
                > 'facilitator of incitation (of game), hunting dog, hound' could
                > belong to this earlier stage, and might well be the earliest
                > Indo-European word for 'domestic dog', preserved in Germanic as
                > *hunDa-, but replaced elsewhere by a derivative of *pék^u-
                > 'livestock'. Stockbreeders required dogs of a different
                > temperament, who could keep herds together without inciting them
                > into a stampede. For inciting individual animals to move, pointed
                > goads were necessary. Such derivatives of *k^ent- as Greek
                > <kéntron> and <kontós>, and Latvian <si:ts>, could originally have
                > referred to goads (and the shafts upon which they were mounted) for
                > prodding cattle, and belong to this later stage. These derivatives
                > would have acted back on the sense of the primary verb, giving the
                > specialization 'incite by pricking, prick, goad'. In Gothic I
                > suspect that the simplex <-hinþan> in a military context meant
                > something like 'to incite with a spear', either by actual poking or
                > by threatening to do so, as armed men herding prisoners. As in the
                > other examples, <frahinþan> would then indicate the motion going to
                > completion, 'to incite into confinement, take captive at spear-
                > point'. And of course the etymological connection with <hunds>
                > would no longer be felt by Gothic-speakers, having been forgotten
                > long ago.

                Perhaps we shouldn't search for the derivation process within IE.
                Here are some glosses for your enjoyment:

                Uralisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch:
                'kunta 1 'Geschlecht, Sippe, Gemeinschaft' FU, ? U
                ...
                kunta 2 'wildes Rentier' FU, ? U
                lapp.
                N go,d´de -dd- 'wild reindeer',
                L kådde:,
                K (246) T ko,nte, Kld. ko,nt,
                Not. koa,dd 'wild; wildes Rentier',
                N go,ddudâs -ss- -s- ~ go,ddâs 'four-year-old male reindeer'
                (> finn. kuntus, kunteus 'drei- od. vierjähriges Rentier') |

                wog. (WV 118) TJ konka: KU xonG&, P kunn& 'Rentier' ||

                ?[sam.
                jen. Ch. kêre?, hêre?, B kede 'wildes Rentier',
                (Mikola: NyK 66: 39) kezæ?;
                kam. (Castr. Mskr., mitg. Toiv.: FUF 21: 128) kouna].

                Vgl. alt.: mong. qanda-Gai 'elk, sort of moose', tung kandaga 'losI'.

                Wog. ka: und G& sind Ableitungssuffixe (vgl. TJ pæska-, KU pasG&, P pass& 'Fausthandschuh' ~ ostj. V pas), aus der vorangehenden Konsonantenverbindung *nt (*kuntkta) ist t geschwunden. Sam. jen. ? ist ebenfalls ein Ableitungssuffix.

                Der Vokal der ersten Silbe im Jen. ist eine unregelmäßige Entsprechung der Vokale im Lapp. und Wog.

                Möglicherweise ist es ein eurasisches Wanderwort.

                VglWb. 81; O. Donner: Suomi 1882:286, MSFOu. 71:84; Halász: NyK 23:30), Gombocz: NyK 32: 190; Äimä: JSFOu. 30/30a: 72; Kalima: MSFOu. 44: 50, 127; Beitr.90; Toivonen: FUF21: 128; UJb. 17: 187,SitzFAk. 1949: 171; Vasmer, REtWb, 2 ; 617; FUV; E. Itkonen: UAJb. 18: 60; SKES; Räsänen: STEP 1963 : 187; Mikola: NyK 66:39.


                kunta- 3 'fangen; (eine Beute) finden' FU, ? U
                ...'

                Vergleichendes Wörterbuch der Jenissei-Sprachen:
                '4kan, II (n, Pl. kan,en) 'Weg des großen Winternomadisierens';
                mket., nket. 4ka:n,&, Pl. kán,en;
                jug. 4kah:n,, Pl. kan,ïn ds.;
                [] PJ *ka?&n,&; PJ (S) *ka:n,- (~g-) ds.
                ...
                kán,tan, 'großer Jagdzug'
                (Winternomadisieren, dauerte vom November-Dezember bis zum April-Mai)
                < sket. 4kan, 'Winterjagdweg', 'Winterwanderungsweg'
                + 4tan, 'schleppen', 'ziehen' (Schleppe', 'Polarschlitten');
                tkán,tan,avetin
                'sie machen sich auf den Weg des Winternomadisierens',
                Prät. tkán,tan,ól´betin (8.1)
                ..
                2ko?p (f, Pl. 3ko:n)
                1) 'Erdeichhörnchen',
                jug. 2ko?p, Pl. kófïn; imb. (M) ko:p, eed-s^es^ (Mes) koóp / koop (Kl) ds.;
                [] PJ (S) *ko?p (~g-, -o-);
                2) ...
                ...
                3ko:nno 'Erdeichhörnchen jagen' < 3ko:n 'Erdeichhörnchen' + 3qo: 'töten', 'erbeuten':
                sket. t3ko:nnoavet 'ich jage Erdeichhörnchen',
                Prät. t3ko:nno Gól´bet [3ko:nno...bet] (8.1);
                jug. kófïnnou ds.: dikófinnouáget´ 'ich jage Erdeichhörnchen',
                Prät. dikófinnou4o:rget´ [kófïnnou...get´] (8.1)
                ...
                4ku:n´e; jug. 4kuh:n, Pl. kúnïn/kunïn,;
                imb. (M, W) kuúne/kuun´a (Kl),
                ost. (M) kuún´a,
                pump. (W) kun, eed-s^es^ (Mes) ku:n ds.;
                [] PJ *ku?ono:
                PJ (S) *ku:n´ (~g-) 'Vielfraß'; B 1957 vgl. mit kar., sag. quna ds.;
                C^ís 1976 vgl. mit
                s^or. kunu, chak. xunu, bas^k. kono ds., udm. kon´i 'Eichhörnchen',
                russ. kunitsa < finno-ugrischen Sprachen (?)
                '


                Torsten
              • Torsten
                ... German Hetze battue ... cf. http://www.dict.cc/german-english/jdn+hetzen.html http://www.dict.cc/german-english/ein+Tier+hetzen.html
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 13, 2009
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                • Torsten
                  Maybe a translation would be in order (with a few supplements). ... Uralisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch: kunta 1 family, relatives, community FU, ? U ...
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 13, 2009
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                    Maybe a translation would be in order (with a few supplements).

                    > Perhaps we shouldn't search for the derivation process within IE.
                    > Here are some glosses for your enjoyment:

                    Uralisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch:
                    'kunta 1 'family, relatives, community' FU, ? U
                    ...
                    kunta 2 'wild reindeer' FU, ? U
                    Saami
                    N go,d´de -dd- 'wild reindeer',
                    L kådde:,
                    K (246) T ko,nte, Kld. ko,nt,
                    Not. koa,dd 'wild; wild reindeer',
                    N go,ddudâs -ss- -s- ~ go,ddâs 'four-year-old male reindeer'
                    (> finn. kuntus, kunteus 'three- or four-year-old reindeer') |

                    Mansi (WV 118) TJ konka: KU xonG&, P kunn& 'reindeer' ||

                    ?[Samoyed
                    Enets Ch. kêre?, hêre?, B kede 'wild reindeer',
                    (Mikola: NyK 66: 39) kezæ?;
                    Kamass (Castr. Mskr., mitg. Toiv.: FUF 21: 128) kouna].

                    Cf Alt.: Mong. qanda-Gai 'elk, sort of moose', Tung. kandaga 'losI'.

                    Mansi ka: and G& are derivational suffixes (cf. TJ pæska-, KU pasG&, P pass& 'mitten' ~ Khanty V pas), from the preceding consonant cluster *nt (*kuntkta) t has disappeared. Samoyed Enets ? is likewise a derivational suffix.

                    The vowel of the first syllable in Enets is an irregular correspondence of the vowels in Saami and Mansi.

                    Possibly it is a Eurasian Wanderwort.



                    kunta- 3 'catch; find (a prey)' FU, ? U
                    ...'


                    Vergleichendes Wörterbuch der Jenissei-Sprachen:
                    'kan, I (Kot. M) kan, 'river' (Kan River in Central Sibiria);
                    ass. (M) kan,, kam. (M) xan,enbi, Ar. (M) xan, id.
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kan_River

                    4kan, II (n, Pl. kan,en) 'road of the great winter nomadic migration';
                    Middle Ket., Northern Ket. 4ka:n,&, Pl. kán,en;
                    Jug. 4kah:n,, Pl. kan,ïn ds.;
                    [] Proto-Yeiseian *ka?&n,&;
                    Proto-Yeniseian (S) *ka:n,- (~g-) ds.
                    ...

                    kán,tan, 'great hunting expedition'
                    (winter nomadic migration, lasted from november-december until april-may)
                    < sket. 4kan, 'winter hunting road', 'winter migration road'
                    + 4tan, 'drag', 'pull' ('drag (of hunt)', 'polar sled');
                    tkán,tan,avetin
                    'they set out on the road of the winter nomadic migration',
                    pret. tkán,tan,ól´betin (8.1)
                    ..
                    2ko?p (f, Pl. 3ko:n)
                    1) 'gopher',
                    Jug. 2ko?p, Pl. kófïn; Imb. (M) ko:p, eed-s^es^ (Mes) koóp / koop (Kl) id.;
                    [] Proto-Yeniseian (S) *ko?p (~g-, -o-);
                    2) ...
                    ...
                    3ko:nno 'hunting gophers' < 3ko:n 'gophers' + 3qo: 'kill', 'carry off':
                    sket. t3ko:nnoavet 'I hunt gophers',
                    pret. t3ko:nno Gól´bet [3ko:nno...bet] (8.1);
                    Jug. kófïnnou ds.: dikófinnouáget´ 'I hunt gophers',
                    pret. dikófinnou4o:rget´ [kófïnnou...get´] (8.1)
                    ...
                    4ku:n´e;
                    Jug. 4kuh:n, Pl. kúnïn/kunïn,;
                    Imb. (M, W) kuúne/kuun´a (Kl),
                    Ost. (M) kuún´a,
                    Pump. (W) kun, eed-s^es^ (Mes) ku:n id.;
                    [] Proto-Yeniseian *ku?ono:
                    Proto-Yeniseian (S) *ku:n´ (~g-) 'Wolverine';
                    B 1957 cf. with Kar., Sag. quna id.;
                    C^ís 1976 cf. with
                    S^or. kunu, Chak. xunu, Bas^k. kono id., Udm. kon´i 'gopher',
                    Russ. kunitsa < Finno-Ugric languages (?)
                    '


                    Torsten
                    >
                  • dgkilday57
                    ... According to Kluge and were formed in NHG from , which goes back to OHG. He suggests a possible connection with hate , which
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 14, 2009
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                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > And add
                      > German Hetze "battue"
                      >
                      > > http://www.thefreedictionary.com/battue
                      > > (and hetzen "excite, goad")
                      >
                      > cf.
                      > http://www.dict.cc/german-english/jdn+hetzen.html
                      > http://www.dict.cc/german-english/ein+Tier+hetzen.html
                      > http://www.dict.cc/german-english/Hetzjagd.html
                      > http://tinyurl.com/yfakxj7

                      According to Kluge <Hetze> and <Hatz> were formed in NHG from <hetzen>, which goes back to OHG. He suggests a possible connection with 'hate', which Koebler mentions (with a question mark) and Pokorny (IEW 517) is lukewarm about; WGmc *hattjan would then be based on the zero-grade *k^h2d-. The passage 'hate' > 'chase' is rather shaky. Rather than *k^eh2d-, the root in question may be *keh2d- or *keh1d- (IEW 516 'schaedigen, berauben, verfolgen'), not well documented and the only normal grade is a dubious pluperfect <ekeke:dei> in Hesychius; nevertheless WGmc *hattjan 'cause to chase' would be regular and not require any great semantic stretch.

                      DGK
                    • Torsten
                      ... Try hunzen , now that you got your dictionaries open. It s supposedly from Hund , but AFAICS it s cognate with hunt . Torsten
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 14, 2009
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                        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > And add
                        > > German Hetze "battue"
                        > >
                        > > > http://www.thefreedictionary.com/battue
                        > > > (and hetzen "excite, goad")
                        > >
                        > > cf.
                        > > http://www.dict.cc/german-english/jdn+hetzen.html
                        > > http://www.dict.cc/german-english/ein+Tier+hetzen.html
                        > > http://www.dict.cc/german-english/Hetzjagd.html
                        > > http://tinyurl.com/yfakxj7
                        >
                        > According to Kluge <Hetze> and <Hatz> were formed in NHG from
                        > <hetzen>, which goes back to OHG. He suggests a possible
                        > connection with 'hate', which Koebler mentions (with a question
                        > mark) and Pokorny (IEW 517) is lukewarm about; WGmc *hattjan would
                        > then be based on the zero-grade *k^h2d-. The passage 'hate' >
                        > 'chase' is rather shaky. Rather than *k^eh2d-, the root in
                        > question may be *keh2d- or *keh1d- (IEW 516 'schaedigen, berauben,
                        > verfolgen'), not well documented and the only normal grade is a
                        > dubious pluperfect <ekeke:dei> in Hesychius; nevertheless WGmc
                        > *hattjan 'cause to chase' would be regular and not require any
                        > great semantic stretch.

                        Try 'hunzen', now that you got your dictionaries open. It's supposedly from 'Hund', but AFAICS it's cognate with 'hunt'.


                        Torsten
                      • dgkilday57
                        ... Kluge s.v. : Ztw. nhd. zu Hund gebildet wie duzen, erzen, siezen zu du, Er, Sie, somit urspr. Hund nennen , dann jem. wie einen Hund behandeln .
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 16, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > > And add
                          > > > German Hetze "battue"
                          > > >
                          > > > > http://www.thefreedictionary.com/battue
                          > > > > (and hetzen "excite, goad")
                          > > >
                          > > > cf.
                          > > > http://www.dict.cc/german-english/jdn+hetzen.html
                          > > > http://www.dict.cc/german-english/ein+Tier+hetzen.html
                          > > > http://www.dict.cc/german-english/Hetzjagd.html
                          > > > http://tinyurl.com/yfakxj7
                          > >
                          > > According to Kluge <Hetze> and <Hatz> were formed in NHG from
                          > > <hetzen>, which goes back to OHG. He suggests a possible
                          > > connection with 'hate', which Koebler mentions (with a question
                          > > mark) and Pokorny (IEW 517) is lukewarm about; WGmc *hattjan would
                          > > then be based on the zero-grade *k^h2d-. The passage 'hate' >
                          > > 'chase' is rather shaky. Rather than *k^eh2d-, the root in
                          > > question may be *keh2d- or *keh1d- (IEW 516 'schaedigen, berauben,
                          > > verfolgen'), not well documented and the only normal grade is a
                          > > dubious pluperfect <ekeke:dei> in Hesychius; nevertheless WGmc
                          > > *hattjan 'cause to chase' would be regular and not require any
                          > > great semantic stretch.
                          >
                          > Try 'hunzen', now that you got your dictionaries open. It's supposedly from 'Hund', but AFAICS it's cognate with 'hunt'.

                          Kluge s.v. <hunzen>:

                          Ztw. nhd. zu Hund gebildet wie duzen, erzen, siezen zu du, Er, Sie, somit urspr. 'Hund nennen', dann 'jem. wie einen Hund behandeln'. So gehoert schwaeb. (ver)hundaasen 'miszhandeln' zum Scheltwort Hundaas. Daen. <hundse> stammt aus dem Nhd. Vgl. <verhunzen> [erst bei Causenmacher (Lpz. 1701) 62 "die Sache verhunzen"].

                          This seems to be the majority view. Friedrich Blatz, _Nhd. Grammatik_, Bd. I, S. 711-2 (1900) has more details:

                          Das Verbalsuffix -zen bildet Intensiva und Iterativa, ... dient daher auch zur Bezeichnung wiederholter Toene oder Laute, z.B. achzen (ach), ... siezen, duzen (mit du anreden) [auch mhd.], ihrzen [mhd. irzen]. ... Ob hunzen, verhunzen von Hund kommt oder slavischen Ursprungs ist, scheint zweifelhaft.

                          This suffix goes back to OHG, e.g. <blecchazzen> 'blitzen', cf. MDu <blicken> 'glaenzen'; <trophezzen> 'distillare', cf. <tropho:n>, NHG <tropfen>; <chahhazzen> 'ridere' = OE <ceahhettan>; also OE has <cohhettan> 'tussitare' from *cohhian, cf. ME <coughen>, MDu <kuchen> 'to cough'. The suffix is Common WGmc at least.

                          Several other scholars cite the possible Slavic source as Bohemian <huntowati> 'hunzen, zu Grunde richten, schlachten', though not all consider this plausible. Hardly anyone wants to derive <hunzen> from 'hunt'. It seems to me that a loanword might well have been paretymologized as a derivative of <Hund>, but without more digging I can say nothing about this <huntowati>.

                          DGK
                        • dgkilday57
                          ... F. Weigand & F. Schmitthenner, Dt. Wb. I:712 (1873): hunzen = die Ehre abschneidend, spottend, scheltend behandeln ... Erst im 16. Jh., in welchem huntzen
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 19, 2009
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                            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Try 'hunzen', now that you got your dictionaries open. It's supposedly from 'Hund', but AFAICS it's cognate with 'hunt'.
                            >
                            > Kluge s.v. <hunzen>:
                            >
                            > Ztw. nhd. zu Hund gebildet wie duzen, erzen, siezen zu du, Er, Sie, somit urspr. 'Hund nennen', dann 'jem. wie einen Hund behandeln'. So gehoert schwaeb. (ver)hundaasen 'miszhandeln' zum Scheltwort Hundaas. Daen. <hundse> stammt aus dem Nhd. Vgl. <verhunzen> [erst bei Causenmacher (Lpz. 1701) 62 "die Sache verhunzen"].
                            >
                            > This seems to be the majority view. Friedrich Blatz, _Nhd. Grammatik_, Bd. I, S. 711-2 (1900) has more details:
                            >
                            > Das Verbalsuffix -zen bildet Intensiva und Iterativa, ... dient daher auch zur Bezeichnung wiederholter Toene oder Laute, z.B. achzen (ach), ... siezen, duzen (mit du anreden) [auch mhd.], ihrzen [mhd. irzen]. ... Ob hunzen, verhunzen von Hund kommt oder slavischen Ursprungs ist, scheint zweifelhaft.
                            >
                            > This suffix goes back to OHG, e.g. <blecchazzen> 'blitzen', cf. MDu <blicken> 'glaenzen'; <trophezzen> 'distillare', cf. <tropho:n>, NHG <tropfen>; <chahhazzen> 'ridere' = OE <ceahhettan>; also OE has <cohhettan> 'tussitare' from *cohhian, cf. ME <coughen>, MDu <kuchen> 'to cough'. The suffix is Common WGmc at least.
                            >
                            > Several other scholars cite the possible Slavic source as Bohemian <huntowati> 'hunzen, zu Grunde richten, schlachten', though not all consider this plausible. Hardly anyone wants to derive <hunzen> from 'hunt'. It seems to me that a loanword might well have been paretymologized as a derivative of <Hund>, but without more digging I can say nothing about this <huntowati>.

                            F. Weigand & F. Schmitthenner, Dt. Wb. I:712 (1873):

                            hunzen = die Ehre abschneidend, spottend, scheltend behandeln ... Erst im 16. Jh., in welchem huntzen = durch Abschneiden kuerzen ["zuhuntzte ... Kleidung" (Mathesius, Sarepta Bl. 69{a}) = zu sehr gekuerzte], einscheinend kuerzen. Mit regelrechter Verschiebung des t zu z entlehnt aus boehm. huntovati, humtovati = verhunzen, aber huntowati eig. = schlachten.

                            A. de Cihac, Dict. d'etym. daco-romane I:134 (1879):

                            Ha^nt>uesc, i, vb., de'pe'cer, dilace'rer, de'membrer, de'chirer; -hant>, s., hant> de morta^ciune 'charogne'; cfr. c^ech. huntovati 'faire le me'tier de boucher', hunt 'grand morceau'; l'all. hunzen, aushunzen 'gourmander' est de la me^me source c^ech.

                            J.F. S^umavske'ho, C^esko-Nemecky slovnik 164 (1851):

                            Hunt, u 'Stuerzkarren; Knollen, groszes Stuekk; Klotz zu Schindeln; groszes Holzscheit'; --e'r^ 'Landfleischhauer, Steckviehhaendler; Verderber, Sudler'; ... --e'r^uju 'Landfleischhauer sein'.

                            Kluge seems to have been unaware of "zuhuntzte Kleidung"; this 16th-c. sense of <huntzen> can hardly come from 'Hund nennen'. However a loan from the Czech form <huntovati> should not have lost the second syllable; we have 15th-c. Ger. <hauf(e)nitz> 'howitzer' from Boh. <houfnice> 'stone-sling, catapult'. More likely Boh. <hunte'r^> was borrowed into early NHG as *Huntzer 'meat-cutter, butcher' and the verb <huntzen> was back-formed, literally 'to cut meat, butcher, hack to pieces, cut short' etc., figuratively 'to cut down to size, belittle, die Ehre abschneiden, spotten, schelten, schimpfen'.

                            I do not know the source of this Czech <hunt> 'piece, lump', etc.

                            DGK
                          • Torsten
                            ... The -ova-, -uje- suffix creates verbs from nouns in Slavic languages. It is very common, bilinguals might have discarded it in translation. ... Somehow the
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 20, 2009
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                              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Try 'hunzen', now that you got your dictionaries open. It's
                              > > > supposedly from 'Hund', but AFAICS it's cognate with 'hunt'.
                              > >
                              > > Kluge s.v. <hunzen>:
                              > >
                              > > Ztw. nhd. zu Hund gebildet wie duzen, erzen, siezen zu du, Er,
                              > > Sie, somit urspr. 'Hund nennen', dann 'jem. wie einen Hund
                              > > behandeln'. So gehoert schwaeb. (ver)hundaasen 'miszhandeln' zum
                              > > Scheltwort Hundaas. Daen. <hundse> stammt aus dem Nhd. Vgl.
                              > > <verhunzen> [erst bei Causenmacher (Lpz. 1701) 62 "die Sache
                              > > verhunzen"].
                              > >
                              > > This seems to be the majority view. Friedrich Blatz, _Nhd.
                              > > Grammatik_, Bd. I, S. 711-2 (1900) has more details:
                              > >
                              > > Das Verbalsuffix -zen bildet Intensiva und Iterativa, ... dient
                              > > daher auch zur Bezeichnung wiederholter Toene oder Laute, z.B.
                              > > achzen (ach), ... siezen, duzen (mit du anreden) [auch mhd.],
                              > > ihrzen [mhd. irzen]. ... Ob hunzen, verhunzen von Hund kommt oder
                              > > slavischen Ursprungs ist, scheint zweifelhaft.
                              > >
                              > > This suffix goes back to OHG, e.g. <blecchazzen> 'blitzen', cf.
                              > > MDu <blicken> 'glaenzen'; <trophezzen> 'distillare', cf.
                              > > <tropho:n>, NHG <tropfen>; <chahhazzen> 'ridere' = OE
                              > > <ceahhettan>; also OE has <cohhettan> 'tussitare' from *cohhian,
                              > > cf. ME <coughen>, MDu <kuchen> 'to cough'. The suffix is Common
                              > > WGmc at least.
                              > >
                              > > Several other scholars cite the possible Slavic source as
                              > > Bohemian <huntowati> 'hunzen, zu Grunde richten, schlachten',
                              > > though not all consider this plausible. Hardly anyone wants to
                              > > derive <hunzen> from 'hunt'. It seems to me that a loanword
                              > > might well have been paretymologized as a derivative of <Hund>,
                              > > but without more digging I can say nothing about this <huntowati>.
                              >
                              > F. Weigand & F. Schmitthenner, Dt. Wb. I:712 (1873):
                              >
                              > hunzen = die Ehre abschneidend, spottend, scheltend behandeln ...
                              > Erst im 16. Jh., in welchem huntzen = durch Abschneiden kuerzen
                              > ["zuhuntzte ... Kleidung" (Mathesius, Sarepta Bl. 69{a}) = zu sehr
                              > gekuerzte], einscheinend kuerzen. Mit regelrechter Verschiebung
                              > des t zu z entlehnt aus boehm. huntovati, humtovati = verhunzen,
                              > aber huntowati eig. = schlachten.
                              >
                              > A. de Cihac, Dict. d'etym. daco-romane I:134 (1879):
                              >
                              > Ha^nt>uesc, i, vb., de'pe'cer, dilace'rer, de'membrer, de'chirer;
                              > -hant>, s., hant> de morta^ciune 'charogne'; cfr. c^ech. huntovati
                              > 'faire le me'tier de boucher', hunt 'grand morceau'; l'all. hunzen,
                              > aushunzen 'gourmander' est de la me^me source c^ech.
                              >
                              > J.F. S^umavske'ho, C^esko-Nemecky slovnik 164 (1851):
                              >
                              > Hunt, u 'Stuerzkarren; Knollen, groszes Stuekk; Klotz zu Schindeln;
                              > groszes Holzscheit'; --e'r^ 'Landfleischhauer, Steckviehhaendler;
                              > Verderber, Sudler'; ... --e'r^uju 'Landfleischhauer sein'.
                              >
                              > Kluge seems to have been unaware of "zuhuntzte Kleidung"; this
                              > 16th-c. sense of <huntzen> can hardly come from 'Hund nennen'.
                              > However a loan from the Czech form <huntovati> should not have lost
                              > the second syllable; we have 15th-c. Ger. <hauf(e)nitz> 'howitzer'
                              > from Boh. <houfnice> 'stone-sling, catapult'. More likely Boh.
                              > <hunte'r^> was borrowed into early NHG as *Huntzer 'meat-cutter,
                              > butcher' and the verb <huntzen> was back-formed, literally 'to cut
                              > meat, butcher, hack to pieces, cut short' etc., figuratively 'to
                              > cut down to size, belittle, die Ehre abschneiden, spotten,
                              > schelten, schimpfen'.

                              The -ova-, -uje- suffix creates verbs from nouns in Slavic languages. It is very common, bilinguals might have discarded it in translation.

                              > I do not know the source of this Czech <hunt> 'piece, lump', etc.

                              Somehow the whole thing looks hunt-related, the last quotes having to do with dissecting the quarry, cf 'Unmaking' in
                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_hunting


                              Vasmer has only
                              'gúnja 'zerlumptes Kleidungsstück',
                              gúnka 'Kinderwindel',
                              ukr. hún´a 'grober Tuchrock',
                              bulg. gún´a 'Mantel von Ziegenhaar',
                              skr. gûnj 'Art Oberkleid',
                              sloven. gúnj,
                              c^ech. houne^ 'haariger Stoff, Kotze',
                              slk. hun^a,
                              poln. gunia, dass.
                              || Entlehnt aus airan. gaunya:- f. 'die farbige'
                              ...'
                              I can't say whether this might be related.


                              BTW, in
                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunting
                              I found this
                              'The word for hunting in Ancient Greek, kynègia, is derived from kynos 'dog'.'


                              Torsten
                            • dgkilday57
                              ... The loan could have gone in either direction, then. O. Wiese, ZfdWf 3:243 (1903) gives a reasonably good argument for deriving from
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 21, 2009
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                                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > [...]
                                > >
                                > > F. Weigand & F. Schmitthenner, Dt. Wb. I:712 (1873):
                                > >
                                > > hunzen = die Ehre abschneidend, spottend, scheltend behandeln ...
                                > > Erst im 16. Jh., in welchem huntzen = durch Abschneiden kuerzen
                                > > ["zuhuntzte ... Kleidung" (Mathesius, Sarepta Bl. 69{a}) = zu sehr
                                > > gekuerzte], einscheinend kuerzen. Mit regelrechter Verschiebung
                                > > des t zu z entlehnt aus boehm. huntovati, humtovati = verhunzen,
                                > > aber huntowati eig. = schlachten.
                                > >
                                > > A. de Cihac, Dict. d'etym. daco-romane I:134 (1879):
                                > >
                                > > Ha^nt>uesc, i, vb., de'pe'cer, dilace'rer, de'membrer, de'chirer;
                                > > -hant>, s., hant> de morta^ciune 'charogne'; cfr. c^ech. huntovati
                                > > 'faire le me'tier de boucher', hunt 'grand morceau'; l'all. hunzen,
                                > > aushunzen 'gourmander' est de la me^me source c^ech.
                                > >
                                > > J.F. S^umavske'ho, C^esko-Nemecky slovnik 164 (1851):
                                > >
                                > > Hunt, u 'Stuerzkarren; Knollen, groszes Stuekk; Klotz zu Schindeln;
                                > > groszes Holzscheit'; --e'r^ 'Landfleischhauer, Steckviehhaendler;
                                > > Verderber, Sudler'; ... --e'r^uju 'Landfleischhauer sein'.
                                > >
                                > > Kluge seems to have been unaware of "zuhuntzte Kleidung"; this
                                > > 16th-c. sense of <huntzen> can hardly come from 'Hund nennen'.
                                > > However a loan from the Czech form <huntovati> should not have lost
                                > > the second syllable; we have 15th-c. Ger. <hauf(e)nitz> 'howitzer'
                                > > from Boh. <houfnice> 'stone-sling, catapult'. More likely Boh.
                                > > <hunte'r^> was borrowed into early NHG as *Huntzer 'meat-cutter,
                                > > butcher' and the verb <huntzen> was back-formed, literally 'to cut
                                > > meat, butcher, hack to pieces, cut short' etc., figuratively 'to
                                > > cut down to size, belittle, die Ehre abschneiden, spotten,
                                > > schelten, schimpfen'.
                                >
                                > The -ova-, -uje- suffix creates verbs from nouns in Slavic languages. It is very common, bilinguals might have discarded it in translation.

                                The loan could have gone in either direction, then. O. Wiese, ZfdWf 3:243 (1903) gives a reasonably good argument for deriving <verhunzen> from *verhumpezen, and Franck, Ned. Etym. Woordb. 378 relates the simplex <hunzen> to Dutch <homp> 'afgesneden stuk'. From what little I have found out, Mathesius was from the border area and the Sarepta has many examples of Bergmannssprache; possibly Czech <hunt> was extracted from <huntzen>, itself from *humpezen, and passed on to Romanian in the sense 'piece of meat'.

                                > > I do not know the source of this Czech <hunt> 'piece, lump', etc.
                                >
                                > Somehow the whole thing looks hunt-related, the last quotes having to do with dissecting the quarry, cf 'Unmaking' in
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_hunting

                                A possible connection, yes.

                                > Vasmer has only
                                > 'gúnja 'zerlumptes Kleidungsstück',
                                > gúnka 'Kinderwindel',
                                > ukr. hún´a 'grober Tuchrock',
                                > bulg. gún´a 'Mantel von Ziegenhaar',
                                > skr. gûnj 'Art Oberkleid',
                                > sloven. gúnj,
                                > c^ech. houne^ 'haariger Stoff, Kotze',
                                > slk. hun^a,
                                > poln. gunia, dass.
                                > || Entlehnt aus airan. gaunya:- f. 'die farbige'
                                > ...'
                                > I can't say whether this might be related.

                                Probably not, but I am no Slavist.

                                > BTW, in
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunting
                                > I found this
                                > 'The word for hunting in Ancient Greek, kynègia, is derived from kynos 'dog'.'

                                Literally 'dog-driving' or 'driving with dogs' which fits reasonably well with what I proposed for Gmc. *hunDa-.

                                DGK
                              • dgkilday57
                                ... Johann Mathesius was a clergyman in Joachimsthal. The participle occurs in a series of participles describing, with some disdain, the miners
                                Message 15 of 19 , Oct 23, 2009
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                                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > [...]
                                  > >
                                  > > The -ova-, -uje- suffix creates verbs from nouns in Slavic languages. It is very common, bilinguals might have discarded it in translation.
                                  >
                                  > The loan could have gone in either direction, then. O. Wiese, ZfdWf 3:243 (1903) gives a reasonably good argument for deriving <verhunzen> from *verhumpezen, and Franck, Ned. Etym. Woordb. 378 relates the simplex <hunzen> to Dutch <homp> 'afgesneden stuk'. From what little I have found out, Mathesius was from the border area and the Sarepta has many examples of Bergmannssprache; possibly Czech <hunt> was extracted from <huntzen>, itself from *humpezen, and passed on to Romanian in the sense 'piece of meat'.

                                  Johann Mathesius was a clergyman in Joachimsthal. The participle <zuhuntzte> occurs in a series of participles describing, with some disdain, the miners' clothing. The wearing of cut clothing was apparently a major issue for Reformation authorities. I ran across a whole monograph on this topic by L. Bartsch, "Die saechsischen Kleiderordnungen" (Mitt. Freib. Altertumsvereins 20:1-44, 1883).

                                  Anyhow, M.'s 16th-c. <huntzen> can hardly come from *humpezen or *humpenzen, since M. uses uncontracted forms like <kupferenzen> 'to smell and taste like copper'. Wiese is probably correct as far as <verhunzen> 'to botch, spoil, make unfit for use' seems connected with early NHG (Luther) <Huempler> 'unskilled worker', Dutch <hompelig> 'uneven', <homp> 'hump', of obscure Low German origin. And Grimm and Kluge are probably correct as far as <hunzen> 'treat as a dog' goes. That is, there are three sources for <(ver)hunzen>.

                                  > > > I do not know the source of this Czech <hunt> 'piece, lump', etc.
                                  > >
                                  > > Somehow the whole thing looks hunt-related, the last quotes having to do with dissecting the quarry, cf 'Unmaking' in
                                  > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_hunting
                                  >
                                  > A possible connection, yes.
                                  >
                                  > > Vasmer has only
                                  > > 'gúnja 'zerlumptes Kleidungsstück',
                                  > > gúnka 'Kinderwindel',
                                  > > ukr. hún´a 'grober Tuchrock',
                                  > > bulg. gún´a 'Mantel von Ziegenhaar',
                                  > > skr. gûnj 'Art Oberkleid',
                                  > > sloven. gúnj,
                                  > > c^ech. houne^ 'haariger Stoff, Kotze',
                                  > > slk. hun^a,
                                  > > poln. gunia, dass.
                                  > > || Entlehnt aus airan. gaunya:- f. 'die farbige'
                                  > > ...'
                                  > > I can't say whether this might be related.
                                  >
                                  > Probably not, but I am no Slavist.

                                  At ant rate since <hunt> is not pan-Slavic it probably came into Czech from the German of the Erzgebirge, so M.'s <huntzen> is most likely native, but I have no plausible explanation for it.

                                  DGK
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