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Fw: Re: [tied] Re: Mid-first century BCE Yazigian prerequisites

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  • george knysh
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 2 1:43 PM
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      --- On Sun, 8/2/09, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

      > From: george knysh <gknysh@...>
      > Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Mid-first century BCE Yazigian prerequisites
      > To: gknysh@...
      > Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 9:11 PM
      >
      >
      > --- On Sun, 8/2/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...>
      > wrote:
      >
      >
      > > GK: Here is another source about burial practices in
      > the area of and near the amber road in the 1rst-4th cs. CE:
      > >
      > http://club-
      > kaup.narod. ru/kaup_r_ kylakov_hist_ of_prussia_
      > 1283_4.html
      > >
      > > The Lubsow graves are also mentioned. There is no
      > difficulty in seeing them as Germanic. The author is quite
      > familiar with the differences and similarities of burial
      > practices among various ethna
      >
      > Then he should have use five lives of the several pages to
      > dismiss any connection between Przeworsk/Scandinav
      > ian/Wielbark/ Marobodus inhumation and Sarmatian
      > inhumation.
      >
      > ****GK: Are you sure that would be enough? (:=)) Shouldn't
      > there be proof that the described inventory was genuine and
      > not a planned falsified substitution of the real stuff as
      > described in Heimskringla (:=))? Also: think about a reverse
      > situation. If some Kossinna type continued to urge that the
      > "Aryans" of the Ukrainian steppes came from northern Europe,
      > would contemporary archaeologists of Sarmatia be obligated
      > to forego the elementary assumptions of their discipline and
      > add pages of proof to indicate that the Sarmatian graves of
      > their area are not connected to the graves of Germany and
      > Scandinavia? What Kulakov did is enough for any honest
      > scientist.****
      >
      > (interestingly he also mentions the West Balts who were
      > immediate neighbours of the Germanics in the north, and
      > opines that the biritualism of Wielbark was partially a
      > borrowing from that source (the other influence being
      > Marbodian))
      > >
      >
      > Obviously there are others than you who want there so bad
      > to be a migration-tight iron curtain around Germania and
      > Scandinavia.
      >
      > ****GK: Well they're incapable of seeing what's not there
      > Torsten.****
      >
      > > GK: Correction. Here is the Kulikov text on this: "The
      > characteristics of the burial rite of the amber country
      > which exemplifies equine headgear of the Proto-Vimose and
      > Vimose type [GK: i.e. the Celtic stuff] are particularly
      > interesting.
      >
      > Very interesting.
      > Vimose is on Fyn (the island you couldn't spell).
      > Tell me more about its Celticness.
      > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Vimose
      > http://tinyurl.
      > com/l5pqww
      > You're winging it again, right?
      >
      > ****GK: I said "Celtic stuff" as an abbreviation of a
      > previous post outlining the Celtic origins of this type of
      > object. The fact that it is named after Vimose is just a
      > matter of convenience. Here is Kulikov: "The Celtic material of 100 BCE-> 100 CE etc., (as cited earlier)". He then continues:"In all their areas [i.e. those of the Celts GK] at the end of La Tene we find bronze chain type belts, predecessors of the details of the Vimose type equine headgears."... "Among the finds discovered in the camps of 1rst c. CE Roman legions ... are many type Rh1 equine headgears predecessors of Vimose (called Proto-Vimose [in the professional literature GK]) the originating source of the Vimose equine headgear type prepared on such Celtic models for Rome's auxiliary cavalry." Try not to choke (:=)).****)>

      > Thirty years ago [GK 1974. Unfortunately the K. online
      > version doesn't include the title of the sources]the most
      > authoritative (and heretofore the sole) investigator of the
      > burial ritual of the Aestii of Roman times, Jan Jaskanis,
      > had somewhat a priori noted the West Baltic origin of the
      > biritualistic tradition of the 1-4 cs. in southeastern
      > Baltia... But in fact we lack foundations for the assertion
      > of the West Baltic authenticity of the carriers of the
      > tradition of biritualism in the amber country of Roman
      > times. In the Przeworsk area to the south... the appearance
      > of inhumations. .. are interpreted as the appearance in the
      > north of some Marcomanni and Quadi (Nieweljowski, A., 1981).
      >
      >
      > That's a new one. But the Marcomanni and Quadi were
      > neighbors of the Yasigi, so why not.
      >
      > What is most likely though is
      > that this "appearance" (since the (earlier) inhumations are
      > principally female) is to be interpreted as the existence of
      > matrimonial relations between ethnically related
      > communities. "
      > >
      >
      > The appearance of inhumations should be interpreted as the
      > existence of matrimonial relations between ethnically
      > related communities? What does that mean?

      ****GK: Presumably that Lugians and Gutones took Marcomannian and Quadian wives who were buried according to their rite. Which partly adopted inhumations under Celtic influence.****
      >
      > There were some relations through marriage between
      > ethnically related communities and then they decided they
      > should be interred in mounds without cremations? But in
      > Denmark there exist many relations through marriage between
      > ethnically related communities and yet they don't build
      > mounds and inter their loved ones in them. Why is that?
      >
      > Torsten

      ****GK: Who cares? The important point is that professional archaeologists confirm time and again the essentially Germanic inventory of both cremation and inhumation graves in 1rst c. Germania. And no one sees any analogies between Sarmatian and Germanic inhumations (which is why they don't bother to waste their time on refutations). Where necessary (i.e. the Chernyakhov culture) the differences are described.*****
      >
    • tgpedersen
      ... I ll manage. Celtic, you said? http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/27139 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/27140 ... I
      Message 2 of 21 , Aug 3 4:25 AM
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        > > > GK: Correction. Here is the Kulikov text on this: "The
        > > characteristics of the burial rite of the amber country
        > > which exemplifies equine headgear of the Proto-Vimose and
        > > Vimose type [GK: i.e. the Celtic stuff] are particularly
        > > interesting.
        > >
        > > Very interesting.
        > > Vimose is on Fyn (the island you couldn't spell).
        > > Tell me more about its Celticness.
        > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Vimose
        > > http://tinyurl.
        > > com/l5pqww
        > > You're winging it again, right?
        > >
        > > ****GK: I said "Celtic stuff" as an abbreviation of a
        > > previous post outlining the Celtic origins of this type of
        > > object. The fact that it is named after Vimose is just a
        > > matter of convenience. Here is Kulikov: "The Celtic material of
        > > 100 BCE-> 100 CE etc., (as cited earlier)". He then continues:"In
        > > all their areas [i.e. those of the Celts GK] at the end of La
        > > Tene we find bronze chain type belts, predecessors of the details
        > > of the Vimose type equine headgears."... "Among the finds
        > > discovered in the camps of 1rst c. CE Roman legions ... are many
        > > type Rh1 equine headgears predecessors of Vimose (called Proto-
        > > Vimose [in the professional literature GK]) the originating
        > > source of the Vimose equine headgear type prepared on such Celtic
        > > models for Rome's auxiliary cavalry." Try not to choke
        > > (:=)).****)>


        I'll manage. Celtic, you said?
        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/27139
        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/27140


        > > Thirty years ago [GK 1974. Unfortunately the K. online
        > > version doesn't include the title of the sources]the most
        > > authoritative (and heretofore the sole) investigator of the
        > > burial ritual of the Aestii of Roman times, Jan Jaskanis,
        > > had somewhat a priori noted the West Baltic origin of the
        > > biritualistic tradition of the 1-4 cs. in southeastern
        > > Baltia... But in fact we lack foundations for the assertion
        > > of the West Baltic authenticity of the carriers of the
        > > tradition of biritualism in the amber country of Roman
        > > times. In the Przeworsk area to the south... the appearance
        > > of inhumations. .. are interpreted as the appearance in the
        > > north of some Marcomanni and Quadi (Nieweljowski, A., 1981).
        > >
        > >
        > > That's a new one. But the Marcomanni and Quadi were
        > > neighbors of the Yasigi, so why not.
        > >
        > > What is most likely though is
        > > that this "appearance" (since the (earlier) inhumations are
        > > principally female) is to be interpreted as the existence of
        > > matrimonial relations between ethnically related
        > > communities. "
        > > >
        > >
        > > The appearance of inhumations should be interpreted as the
        > > existence of matrimonial relations between ethnically
        > > related communities? What does that mean?
        >
        > ****GK: Presumably that Lugians and Gutones took Marcomannian and
        > Quadian wives who were buried according to their rite. Which partly
        > adopted inhumations under Celtic influence.****

        I though the Przework inhumations were older than the southern Elbe Germanic ones?


        > > There were some relations through marriage between
        > > ethnically related communities and then they decided they
        > > should be interred in mounds without cremations? But in
        > > Denmark there exist many relations through marriage between
        > > ethnically related communities and yet they don't build
        > > mounds and inter their loved ones in them. Why is that?
        > >
        > > Torsten
        >
        > ****GK: Who cares?

        what happens among the Danes? I do, since I'm one of them.

        > The important point is that professional archaeologists confirm
        > time and again the essentially Germanic inventory of both cremation
        > and inhumation graves in 1rst c. Germania.

        Yes they do. They confirm the essential Germanicness of a suddenly appearing upper class which wanted to distinguish themselves by being buried in mounds or in inhumation graves separate from the common Germanic cremating riff-raff, and which seemed to be fond of horses.

        > And no one sees any analogies between Sarmatian and Germanic
        > inhumations

        And evidence to the contrary are stray finds of straying weapons etc.

        > (which is why they don't bother to waste their time on
        > refutations).

        They have families to support and know better than to do otherwise.


        Torsten
      • tgpedersen
        ... Some more stray finds of Sarmatian ring-pommeled swords. At least that s what you called them. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/31967
        Message 3 of 21 , Aug 3 5:37 AM
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          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > > > > GK: Correction. Here is the Kulikov text on this: "The
          > > > characteristics of the burial rite of the amber country
          > > > which exemplifies equine headgear of the Proto-Vimose and
          > > > Vimose type [GK: i.e. the Celtic stuff] are particularly
          > > > interesting.
          > > >
          > > > Very interesting.
          > > > Vimose is on Fyn (the island you couldn't spell).
          > > > Tell me more about its Celticness.
          > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Vimose
          > > > http://tinyurl.
          > > > com/l5pqww
          > > > You're winging it again, right?
          > > >
          > > > ****GK: I said "Celtic stuff" as an abbreviation of a
          > > > previous post outlining the Celtic origins of this type of
          > > > object. The fact that it is named after Vimose is just a
          > > > matter of convenience. Here is Kulikov: "The Celtic material of
          > > > 100 BCE-> 100 CE etc., (as cited earlier)". He then
          > > > continues:"In all their areas [i.e. those of the Celts GK] at
          > > > the end of La Tene we find bronze chain type belts,
          > > > predecessors of the details of the Vimose type equine
          > > > headgears."... "Among the finds discovered in the camps of 1rst
          > > > c. CE Roman legions ... are many type Rh1 equine headgears
          > > > predecessors of Vimose (called Proto-Vimose [in the
          > > > professional literature GK]) the originating source of the
          > > > Vimose equine headgear type prepared on such Celtic models for
          > > > Rome's auxiliary cavalry." Try not to choke
          > > > (:=)).****)>
          >
          >
          > I'll manage. Celtic, you said?
          > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/27139
          > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/27140
          >

          Some more stray finds of Sarmatian ring-pommeled swords. At least that's what you called them.
          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/31967
          They seemed to stray a lot.
          http://tinyurl.com/mqwefx


          Torsten
        • tgpedersen
          ... Next, you ll probably claim Roman provincial origin for the ring-pommeled swords and lorica squamata. That won t work either. http://tinyurl.com/lm76g5
          Message 4 of 21 , Aug 3 7:26 AM
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            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > > > > GK: Correction. Here is the Kulikov text on this: "The
            > > > > characteristics of the burial rite of the amber country
            > > > > which exemplifies equine headgear of the Proto-Vimose and
            > > > > Vimose type [GK: i.e. the Celtic stuff] are particularly
            > > > > interesting.
            > > > >
            > > > > Very interesting.
            > > > > Vimose is on Fyn (the island you couldn't spell).
            > > > > Tell me more about its Celticness.
            > > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Vimose
            > > > > http://tinyurl.
            > > > > com/l5pqww
            > > > > You're winging it again, right?
            > > > >
            > > > > ****GK: I said "Celtic stuff" as an abbreviation of a
            > > > > previous post outlining the Celtic origins of this type of
            > > > > object. The fact that it is named after Vimose is just a
            > > > > matter of convenience. Here is Kulikov: "The Celtic material of
            > > > > 100 BCE-> 100 CE etc., (as cited earlier)". He then
            > > > > continues:"In all their areas [i.e. those of the Celts GK] at
            > > > > the end of La Tene we find bronze chain type belts,
            > > > > predecessors of the details of the Vimose type equine
            > > > > headgears."... "Among the finds discovered in the camps of 1rst
            > > > > c. CE Roman legions ... are many type Rh1 equine headgears
            > > > > predecessors of Vimose (called Proto-Vimose [in the
            > > > > professional literature GK]) the originating source of the
            > > > > Vimose equine headgear type prepared on such Celtic models for
            > > > > Rome's auxiliary cavalry." Try not to choke
            > > > > (:=)).****)>
            > >
            > >
            > > I'll manage. Celtic, you said?
            > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/27139
            > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/27140
            > >
            >
            > Some more stray finds of Sarmatian ring-pommeled swords. At least
            > that's what you called them.
            > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/31967
            > They seemed to stray a lot.
            > http://tinyurl.com/mqwefx


            Next, you'll probably claim Roman provincial origin for the ring-pommeled swords and lorica squamata. That won't work either.

            http://tinyurl.com/lm76g5

            'The Origins of `Scale' Armour
            Originating in the Middle East, where it had been in use since at
            least the seventh century BC, scale armour was used by the Roman army
            throughout its whole existence, and one of the reasons for its long
            life was probably its ease of manufacture and repair . Consisting of
            metal plates sewn to each other and to a backing, it offered an
            acceptable degree of protection at a modest cost, the wearer could
            move freely while wearing it, and, suitably cleaned and polished, it
            would shine brightly on parade like a snake's skin or a freshly
            caught fish. For an army like the Roman army, with its large numbers
            of auxiliaries, it was also ideal for equipping second-rank troops
            and cavalry at minimal cost.

            Although very little used in ancient Greece — the scarcity of
            archaeological finds is matched by the scarcity of paintings showing
            it — scale armour must have come to Italy through Greece in the first
            instance. Its widespread adoption under the Principate must have been
            the result of the massive recruitment of Eastern auxiliaries into the
            Roman army during the first century AD.'



            Torsten
          • george knysh
            ... I ll manage. Celtic, you said? http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/27139 http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/27140
            Message 5 of 21 , Aug 3 8:53 AM
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              --- On Mon, 8/3/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

              > >
              > > GK: I said "Celtic stuff" as an abbreviation of a
              > > previous post outlining the Celtic origins of this type of
              > > object. The fact that it is named after Vimose is just a
              > > matter of convenience. Here is Kulikov: "The Celtic material of
              > > 100 BCE-> 100 CE etc., (as cited earlier)". He then continues:"In
              > > all their areas [i.e. those of the Celts GK] at the end of La
              > > Tene we find bronze chain type belts, predecessors of the details
              > > of the Vimose type equine headgears.". .. "Among the finds
              > > discovered in the camps of 1rst c. CE Roman legions ... are many
              > > type Rh1 equine headgears predecessors of Vimose (called Proto-
              > > Vimose [in the professional literature GK]) the originating
              > > source of the Vimose equine headgear type prepared on such Celtic
              > > models for Rome's auxiliary cavalry." Try not to choke
              > > (:=)).>

              I'll manage. Celtic, you said?
              http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/27139
              http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/27140

              ****GK: Yes. The Vimose type equine headgear (found in dozens of Germanic (and some Baltic) sites from Denmark to Lithuania) is definitely of Celtic origin.****

              > > Thirty years ago [GK 1974. Unfortunately the K. online
              > > version doesn't include the title of the sources]the most
              > > authoritative (and heretofore the sole) investigator of the
              > > burial ritual of the Aestii of Roman times, Jan Jaskanis,
              > > had somewhat a priori noted the West Baltic origin of the
              > > biritualistic tradition of the 1-4 cs. in southeastern
              > > Baltia... But in fact we lack foundations for the assertion
              > > of the West Baltic authenticity of the carriers of the
              > > tradition of biritualism in the amber country of Roman
              > > times. In the Przeworsk area to the south... the appearance
              > > of inhumations. .. are interpreted as the appearance in the
              > > north of some Marcomanni and Quadi (Nieweljowski, A., 1981).
              > >
              > >
              > > That's a new one. But the Marcomanni and Quadi were
              > > neighbors of the Yasigi, so why not.
              > >
              > > What is most likely though is
              > > that this "appearance" (since the (earlier) inhumations are
              > > principally female) is to be interpreted as the existence of
              > > matrimonial relations between ethnically related
              > > communities. "
              > > >
              > >
              > > The appearance of inhumations should be interpreted as the
              > > existence of matrimonial relations between ethnically
              > > related communities? What does that mean?
              >
              > GK: Presumably that Lugians and Gutones took Marcomannian and
              > Quadian wives who were buried according to their rite. Which partly
              > adopted inhumations under Celtic influence.

              I though the Przework inhumations were older than the southern Elbe Germanic ones?

              ****GK: The oldest ones are. That is why it would be useful to have a better description of these burials. All that one can say at present is that if they are "Przeworsk" they are automatically non-Sarmatian in the eyes of archaeologists, who, for example readily distinguish between Zarubinian burials, Scythian burials on Zarubinian territory, and Sarmatian burials on Zarubinian territory. No one has ever spoken of Sarmatian burials on Przeworsk territory. A Przeworsk inhumation grave means one which in every other respect is just as "Przeworsk" as the cremation burials. Which means Germanic.****

              > > There were some relations through marriage between
              > > ethnically related communities and then they decided they
              > > should be interred in mounds without cremations? But in
              > > Denmark there exist many relations through marriage between
              > > ethnically related communities and yet they don't build
              > > mounds and inter their loved ones in them. Why is that?
              > >
              > > Torsten
              >
              > GK: Who cares?

              what happens among the Danes? I do, since I'm one of them.

              ****GK: Your usual red herring twisteroo. Pathetic. Or are you a time traveller. As I clearly stated:

              > The important point is that professional archaeologists confirm
              > time and again the essentially Germanic inventory of both cremation
              > and inhumation graves in 1rst c. Germania.

              Yes they do. They confirm the essential Germanicness of a suddenly appearing upper class which wanted to distinguish themselves by being buried in mounds or in inhumation graves separate from the common Germanic cremating riff-raff, and which seemed to be fond of horses.

              > And no one sees any analogies between Sarmatian and Germanic
              > inhumations

              And evidence to the contrary are stray finds of straying weapons etc.

              ****GK: Just shows your hermeneutic incompetence. Stray finds are just that. If you want to know who is buried in a grave you have to study its shape, the body position, the ritual, the inventory. Stray finds of Persian goblets or Chinese swords in Alanic graves were never interpreted by professionals who know what they are doing to mean that a Persian or Chinese was buried there.****

              > (which is why they don't bother to waste their time on
              > refutations) .

              They have families to support and know better than to do otherwise.

              ****GK: Yes. There is a vast global conspiracy against Snorrism.****

              Torsten

              --- In cybalist@yahoogroup s.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@ ...> wrote:

              Next, you'll probably claim Roman provincial origin for the ring-pommeled swords and lorica squamata. That won't work either.

              ****GK: Are these found in Germanic graves of that period? Oh right just another pathetic red herring... Sorry Torsten. Vimose type headgear are there. Celtic influence. No recorded Sarmatian headgears in Germanic graves. No migration. And everyone knows about the Sarmatian auxiliaries stationed in Britain.****
            • gknysh
              ... ****GK: The above is just one meaning of stray find . There is of course another meaning: objects found independently of a formal burial (just lying
              Message 6 of 21 , Aug 3 9:36 AM
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                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
                > And evidence to the contrary are stray finds of straying weapons etc.
                >
                > GK: Just shows your hermeneutic incompetence. Stray finds are just that. If you want to know who is buried in a grave you have to study its shape, the body position, the ritual, the inventory. Stray finds of Persian goblets or Chinese swords in Alanic graves were never interpreted by professionals who know what they are doing to mean that a Persian or Chinese was buried there.

                ****GK: The above is just one meaning of "stray find". There is of course another meaning: objects found independently of a formal burial (just "lying around" or as part of a hoard or something similar). Some such objects may be evidence of something concrete depending on the context of the find. For instance a Yazigian arrow imbeded in the defense walls of a Zarubinian fortress is properly interpreted as proof of a military assault (esp. because there are many such in such positions. A single arrowhead might have proved very little. Dozens in many places with accompanying evidence (burnings) is another matter.) One has to analyze such stray finds carefully. A sword lying on the ground could mean many things. The more vague possibilities the less secure the conclusion.*****
              • tgpedersen
                ... The above fancy words serve to express George s exasperation that after so many years Torsten still hasn t learned to fetch. ... Yes, and if George calls
                Message 7 of 21 , Aug 3 1:38 PM
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                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "gknysh" <gknysh@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@> wrote:
                  > > And evidence to the contrary are stray finds of straying weapons
                  > > etc.
                  > >
                  > > GK: Just shows your hermeneutic incompetence.

                  The above fancy words serve to express George's exasperation that after so many years Torsten still hasn't learned to fetch.


                  > Stray finds are just that. If you want to know who is buried in a
                  > grave you have to study its shape, the body position, the ritual,
                  > the inventory. Stray finds of Persian goblets or Chinese swords in
                  > Alanic graves were never interpreted by professionals who know what
                  > they are doing to mean that a Persian or Chinese was buried there.

                  Yes, and if George calls something a stray find, it becomes by that very speech act a stray find. Why can't Torsten learn that? Some strange kind of brain damage?


                  > ****GK: The above is just one meaning of "stray find". There is of
                  > course another meaning: objects found independently of a formal
                  > burial (just "lying around" or as part of a hoard or something
                  > similar). Some such objects may be evidence of something concrete
                  > depending on the context of the find. For instance a Yazigian arrow
                  > imbeded in the defense walls of a Zarubinian fortress is properly
                  > interpreted as proof of a military assault (esp. because there are
                  > many such in such positions. A single arrowhead might have proved
                  > very little. Dozens in many places with accompanying evidence
                  > (burnings) is another matter.) One has to analyze such stray finds
                  > carefully.

                  Yes, let's do that. What does a Sarmatian dragon standard and a Sarmatian ring-pommeled sword mean in a Danish bog together with supposedly Celtic equine headgear?


                  > A sword lying on the ground could mean many things.

                  A sword lying a a Danish bog means just one thing if you are a professional who knows what he's doing. Weapon sacrifice.


                  > The more vague possibilities the less secure the conclusion.*****

                  And that's why since you don't want this secure conclusion you delivered in the last paragraph a number of vague possibilities.


                  Torsten
                • george knysh
                  ... The above fancy words serve to express George s exasperation that after so many years Torsten still hasn t learned to fetch. ... Yes, and if George calls
                  Message 8 of 21 , Aug 3 2:25 PM
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                    --- On Mon, 8/3/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:


                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroup s.com, "gknysh" <gknysh@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In cybalist@yahoogroup s.com, george knysh <gknysh@> wrote:
                    > > And evidence to the contrary are stray finds of straying weapons
                    > > etc.
                    > >
                    > > GK: Just shows your hermeneutic incompetence.

                    The above fancy words serve to express George's exasperation that after so many years Torsten still hasn't learned to fetch.

                    ****GK: Yes. If by "learn to fetch" is meant the capacity to understand the ABC of archaeological literature in so far as it combats your Snorrist idiocies. You simply turn off the intellect and turn on the snarky vituperations. The true believer syndrome. *****


                    > Stray finds are just that. If you want to know who is buried in a
                    > grave you have to study its shape, the body position, the ritual,
                    > the inventory. Stray finds of Persian goblets or Chinese swords in
                    > Alanic graves were never interpreted by professionals who know what
                    > they are doing to mean that a Persian or Chinese was buried there.

                    Yes, and if George calls something a stray find, it becomes by that very speech act a stray find.

                    ****GK: George is nerely reporting the conclusions of professional archaeologists, and not involving himself in dilettantic analytic exercises attempting to twist these conclusions towards Snorrism. That would be intellectually dishonest, and that I leave to true believers.****

                    Why can't Torsten learn that? Some strange kind of brain damage?

                    ****GK: Apparently self-analysis doesn't seem to help much (:=))****

                    > GK: The above is just one meaning of "stray find". There is of
                    > course another meaning: objects found independently of a formal
                    > burial (just "lying around" or as part of a hoard or something
                    > similar). Some such objects may be evidence of something concrete
                    > depending on the context of the find. For instance a Yazigian arrow
                    > imbeded in the defense walls of a Zarubinian fortress is properly
                    > interpreted as proof of a military assault (esp. because there are
                    > many such in such positions. A single arrowhead might have proved
                    > very little. Dozens in many places with accompanying evidence
                    > (burnings) is another matter.) One has to analyze such stray finds
                    > carefully.

                    Yes, let's do that. What does a Sarmatian dragon standard and a Sarmatian ring-pommeled sword mean in a Danish bog together with supposedly Celtic equine headgear?

                    ****GK: I don't know, but I'm willing to listen to the experts. What I do know is that Celtic influenced equine headgear in Germanic area graves does not indicate a Sarmatian presence.****

                    > A sword lying on the ground could mean many things.

                    A sword lying a a Danish bog means just one thing if you are a professional who knows what he's doing. Weapon sacrifice.

                    ****GK: Fine if that's the consensus of learned opinion. What's that got to do with the absence of Sarmatian graves in Germania and of any evidence for the kind of Sarmatian presence required to indicate a Snorrist scenario? Answer: zilch. Another Torsten red herring.****

                    > The more vague possibilities the less secure the conclusion.

                    And that's why since you don't want this secure conclusion you delivered in the last paragraph a number of vague possibilities.

                    ****GK: For an ideologist his unproven thesis is ever the "secure conclusion". Instead of wasting everybody's time with these inanities, why don't you provide further particulars about the Przeworsk inhumations you made so much of (since they are the only ones in line with your Ariovistus variant of Snorrism)? That's what you were supposedly looking into. Instead we get a lot of the usual Torsten red herring nonsense (the theme about "stray finds" you raised years ago. It was part of your bla bla which led to your being asked to put up or shut up.)*****
                  • tgpedersen
                    Ah, where were we... Pliny, Naturalis Historia, Book IV. XIII.: http://tinyurl.com/nmmg7j 96 Incipit deinde clarior aperiri fama ab gente Inguaeonum, quae
                    Message 9 of 21 , Aug 7 3:48 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Ah, where were we...

                      Pliny, Naturalis Historia, Book IV. XIII.:
                      http://tinyurl.com/nmmg7j
                      '
                      96 Incipit deinde clarior aperiri fama ab gente Inguaeonum, quae est prima in Germania. Mons Saevo ibi, inmensus nec Ripaeis iugis minor, inmanem ad Cimbrorum usque promunturium efficit sinum, qui Codanus vocatur, refertus insulis, quarum clarissima est Scatinavia, inconpertae magnitudinis, portionem tantum eius, quod notum sit, Hillevionum gente quingentis incolente pagis: quare alterum orbem terrarum eam appellant. nec minor est opinione Aeningia.

                      97 quidam haec habitari ad Vistlam usque fluvium a Sarmatis, Venedis, Sciris, Hirris tradunt, sinum Cylipenum vocari et in ostio eius insulam Latrim, mox alterum sinum Lagnum, conterminum Cimbris. promunturium Cimbrorum excurrens in maria longe paeninsulam efficit, quae Tastris appellatur. XXIII inde insulae Romanis armis cognitae. earum nobilissimae Burcana, Fabaria nostris dicta a frugis multitudine sponte provenientis, item Glaesaria a sucino militiae appellata, barbaris Austeravia, praeterque Actania.'




                      "From this point more definite information begins
                      to open up, beginning with the race of the Inguaeones,
                      the first that we come to in Germany. Here there
                      is an enormous mountain, the Saevo, as big as those
                      of the Ripaean range, which forms an enormous
                      bay reaching to the Cimbrian promontory; it is
                      named the Codanian Gulf, and is studded with islands.
                      The most famous of these is Scandinavia; its size
                      has not been ascertained, and so far as is known,
                      only part of it is inhabited, its natives being the
                      Hilleviones, who dwell in 500 villages, and call their
                      island a second world. Aeningia is thought to be
                      equally big. Some authorities report that these
                      regions as far as the river Vistula are inhabited by
                      the Sarmati, Venedi, Sciri and Hirri, and that there
                      is a gulf named Cyhpenus, with the island of Latris
                      at its mouth, and then another gulf, that of Lagnus,
                      at which is the frontier of the Cimbri. The Cimbrian
                      promontory projects a long way into the sea, forming
                      a peninsula called Tastris. Then there are twenty-
                      three islands known to the armed forces of Rome ;
                      the most noteworthy of these are Burcana, called
                      by our people Bean Island from the quantity of wild
                      beans growing there, and the island which by the
                      soldiery is called Glass Island from its amber, but
                      by the barbarians Austeravia, and also Actania."


                      Shchukin handles that information thus:
                      'Pliny begins his account from the Cimbrian peninsula (promuntorium), ie. Denmark [TP no, Jutland], after which he follows the Gulf of Codanus, with its many islands. The largest is Skatinavia. The "other", the "next" the "opposite land" (alterem orbem terrarum) of similar size, is called Aeningia and had been settled as far as the river Vistula by Sarmatians, Venedi, Sciri and Hirri. Then Pliny returns in his account to the peninsula of Cimbri. Thus we have before us, as D.A. Machinsky rightly supposes a description of the route around the Baltic. The notion about the Baltic as a huge bay (Codanus Sinus) curving like an eyebrow does not belong to Pliny alone, but also to his predecessor and contemporary Pomponius Mela who had written his "Chronology" around 44 AD, and this notion could have arisen if the bank opposite the Cimbrian peninsula to the east beyond the sea with its many islands had been known to exist. The land opposite was the Lithuanian-Latvian shore. Evidently, there had been intentional or chance crossings of the Baltic from west to east. And so D.A. Machinsky thinks that Pliny's Aeningia was most probably the Courzeme peninsula, where some Veneti lived right up to the Middle Ages and where in the 19th century a part of the inhabitants was called "Ventini". Toponyms such as the river Venta and the town of Ventspils are still preserved.
                      There is an opinion, to be sure, that the land opposite "Scatinavia" was Polish Pomerania. Pliny's text allows for such an interpretation, but the first supposition seems more likely. Pliny starts the settlement of Aeningia with the Sarmatians. But we know that the most northerly Sarmatian memorials of this time are in the Middle Dnieper region south of Kiev. Pliny must also have known about this, even if only approximately, from his conversations with Mithridates of the Bosporus and with Platinus Silvanus. Besides he was himself a prefect of the squadron at Misin, a sub-unit of which was still stationed in Chersonesus from where he would have received intelligence information on the barbarian lands. Apparently, Aeningia was not just confined to the Courzeme peninsula. This was essentially all of Eastern Europe between the Baltic, the Vistula and the Dnieper region. The Venedi, Sciri and Hirri lived somewhere here in Aeningia (illus. 40)'


                      Apparently archaeology is in conflict with the written sources here.
                      'The land opposite [to the Cimbrian peninsula / Jutland] was the Lithuanian-Latvian shore.' Highly unlikely interpretation.
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Baltic_Sea_map.png
                      And the expediency of moving Pliny's Aeningia there does not resolve the conflict between Pliny and archaeology wrt. the question of whether the Sarmatians were on the Baltic or not.


                      Torsten
                    • george knysh
                      ... Ah, where were we... ****GK: Waiting for more information about the Przeworsk inhumations you believe to be relevant to your thesis.**** Pliny, Naturalis
                      Message 10 of 21 , Aug 7 8:39 AM
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                        --- On Fri, 8/7/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:




                        Ah, where were we...

                        ****GK: Waiting for more information about the Przeworsk inhumations you believe to be relevant to your thesis.****

                        Pliny, Naturalis Historia, Book IV. XIII.:
                        http://tinyurl. com/nmmg7j
                        '
                        96 Incipit deinde clarior aperiri fama ab gente Inguaeonum, quae est prima in Germania. Mons Saevo ibi, inmensus nec Ripaeis iugis minor, inmanem ad Cimbrorum usque promunturium efficit sinum, qui Codanus vocatur, refertus insulis, quarum clarissima est Scatinavia, inconpertae magnitudinis, portionem tantum eius, quod notum sit, Hillevionum gente quingentis incolente pagis: quare alterum orbem terrarum eam appellant. nec minor est opinione Aeningia.

                        97 quidam haec habitari ad Vistlam usque fluvium a Sarmatis, Venedis,
                        Sciris, Hirris tradunt, sinum Cylipenum vocari

                        ****GK: Pliny is reporting some "quidam". These vague views are not comparable to archaeological data and hardly constitute a problem. But as long as we are talking about this footnote to a footnote, there are some additional points which could be made. I don't think the Pliny text should read "Sarmatis, Venedis" but rather "Sarmatis Venedis". In fact it's the Venedi which are being discussed. As late as Tacitus there was no set opinion about this population, i.e. were they "Sarmatae" or "Germani"? (Cf. Germania, cap. 46) And cf. the tabula Peutingeriana at

                        http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/TabulaPeutingeriana.jpg

                        which has both "Venedae" and "Sarmatae Venedae" on the North Danubian plains.. (this information could have gone back to the time of the Moesian governor Plautus Aelianus). Note the "Roxolani Sarmatae" still east of the Dnister. And the Lupiones Sarmatae west of the Venedae.
                        So we're not really dealing with Sarmatians proper here in this almost certainly corrupted Pliny segment. I think I know who these Danubian Sarmatae Venedae were (Pliny had alternative information about this population) but since this doesn't really affect your thesis I won't mention this here.*****



                        Apparently archaeology is in conflict with the written sources here.

                        ****GK: I agree.****
                        'The land opposite [to the Cimbrian peninsula / Jutland] was the Lithuanian-Latvian shore.' Highly unlikely interpretation.

                        ****GK: Quite. For the Romans "Sarmatia" ended at the Vistula. I think that the corrupted Pliny passage may have omitted something between its "Sarmatis Venedis" and its "Scirris Hirris", like a "deinde" or something similar. I think the Scirri probably referred (in this source, whatever it was) to the Yastorf or Elbe G. population east of the Codanus on the Baltic, and west of the Vistula.****
                        http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ File:Baltic_ Sea_map.png

                        And the expediency of moving Pliny's Aeningia there does not resolve the conflict between Pliny and archaeology wrt. the question of whether the Sarmatians were on the Baltic or not.

                        ****GK: Well of course the "Sarmatians" were on the Baltic. The only question is: which "Sarmatians"? No Roman or Greek writer to my knowledge ever located the Sarmatians proper (i.e. Yazigi, Roxolani, Aorsi, Alani) on the Baltic.****
                      • tgpedersen
                        ... ?? It usually would to you elsewhere. ... ?? Footnote to a footnote? How? ... So does Wikipedia, it seems. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti They
                        Message 11 of 21 , Aug 7 1:22 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- On Fri, 8/7/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Ah, where were we...
                          >
                          > ****GK: Waiting for more information about the Przeworsk inhumations you believe to be relevant to your thesis.****
                          >
                          > Pliny, Naturalis Historia, Book IV. XIII.:
                          > http://tinyurl. com/nmmg7j
                          > '
                          > 96 Incipit deinde clarior aperiri fama ab gente Inguaeonum, quae est prima in Germania. Mons Saevo ibi, inmensus nec Ripaeis iugis minor, inmanem ad Cimbrorum usque promunturium efficit sinum, qui Codanus vocatur, refertus insulis, quarum clarissima est Scatinavia, inconpertae magnitudinis, portionem tantum eius, quod notum sit, Hillevionum gente quingentis incolente pagis: quare alterum orbem terrarum eam appellant. nec minor est opinione Aeningia.
                          >
                          > 97 quidam haec habitari ad Vistlam usque fluvium a Sarmatis,
                          > Venedis, Sciris, Hirris tradunt, sinum Cylipenum vocari
                          >
                          > ****GK: Pliny is reporting some "quidam". These vague views are not > comparable to archaeological data and hardly constitute a problem.

                          ?? It usually would to you elsewhere.
                          > But as long as we are talking about this footnote to a footnote,

                          ?? Footnote to a footnote? How?

                          > there are some additional points which could be made. I don't think
                          > the Pliny text should read "Sarmatis, Venedis" but rather "Sarmatis
                          > Venedis".

                          So does Wikipedia, it seems.
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti
                          They provide no reason. But let's assume it's true:
                          Why are they called Sarmatian Venedi?
                          Were they ruled by a Sarmatian upper class who suddenly established themselves in the country?

                          The top slice of Europe on the Tabula Peutingeriana
                          http://tinyurl.com/npwkts
                          between the topmost river and the sea seems to read
                          --- suevia -- alamannia -- armalausi -- marcomanni --
                          quadi/lutugi -- bur -- sarmate uagi -- nes. sarmatarum --
                          amaxobiisarmate -- lupiones sarmate -- venadisarmatae --
                          alpes bastarnice -- blastarni -- ??

                          That's a lot of different Sarmatae. Do these composites mean those peoples had been Sarmatized?

                          I found in Shchukin in his comments to chapter IX
                          '* It is noteworthy that from the mid-first century AD the burials started to appear in what is now a long chain of barrows along the Kuban' river, called "The Golden Cemetery". Male burials with weapons decidedly predominate here, and the number of Roman objects is so impressive that N.I. Veselovskiy supposed that these are burials of barbarised Romans28. However, one would have more reason to speak of Romanised barbarians. Possibly, what we have here is the cemetery of the detachment of catafracti warriors employed by the Romans to maintain order in the former Siracian lands. So far, it is hard to decide whether this auxiliary contingent of foederati consisted of the Aorsi, the Alans, or the Siraci enrolled to the Roman service. It could even consist of the representatives of different tribes.'

                          That means these Romanized Sarmatians left no particularly Sarmatian trace. In fact this could be a description of the suddenly appearing new upper layer in Przeworskia and later. Whatever Sarmatian relics was found among them might as well by archaeologists have been characterized as stray finds.



                          > In fact it's the Venedi which are being discussed.

                          If so, why call them Sarmatian Venedi' instead of just 'Venedi'?
                          > As late as Tacitus there was no set opinion about this population,
                          > i.e. were they "Sarmatae" or "Germani"? (Cf. Germania, cap. 46)

                          Yes, that description is compatible with a population mixed of the two.


                          > And cf. the tabula Peutingeriana at
                          >
                          > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/TabulaPeutingeriana.jpg
                          >
                          > which has both "Venedae" and "Sarmatae Venedae" on the North Danubian plains.. (this information could have gone back to the time of the Moesian governor Plautus Aelianus). Note the "Roxolani Sarmatae" still east of the Dnister. And the Lupiones Sarmatae west of the Venedae.
                          > So we're not really dealing with Sarmatians proper here in this
                          > almost certainly corrupted Pliny segment.

                          It that the supposedly misplaced comma you call corruption, or is there something else?

                          > I think I know who these Danubian Sarmatae Venedae were (Pliny had
                          > alternative information about this population) but since this
                          > doesn't really affect your thesis I won't mention this here.*****

                          Oh, please tell us, uncle George!


                          >
                          > Apparently archaeology is in conflict with the written sources here.
                          >
                          > ****GK: I agree.****
                          > 'The land opposite [to the Cimbrian peninsula / Jutland] was the
                          > Lithuanian-Latvian shore.' Highly unlikely interpretation.
                          >
                          > ****GK: Quite. For the Romans "Sarmatia" ended at the Vistula. I
                          > think that the corrupted Pliny passage may have omitted something
                          > between its "Sarmatis Venedis" and its "Scirris Hirris", like a
                          > "deinde" or something similar.

                          So it would have read ... ?

                          > I think the Scirri probably referred (in this source, whatever it
                          > was) to the Yastorf or Elbe G. population east of the Codanus on
                          > the Baltic, and west of the Vistula.****

                          So these Scirii were something else?
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scirii

                          > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ File:Baltic_ Sea_map.png
                          >
                          > And the expediency of moving Pliny's Aeningia there does not
                          > resolve the conflict between Pliny and archaeology wrt. the
                          > question of whether the Sarmatians were on the Baltic or not.
                          >
                          > ****GK: Well of course the "Sarmatians" were on the Baltic. The
                          > only question is: which "Sarmatians"? No Roman or Greek writer to
                          > my knowledge ever located the Sarmatians proper (i.e. Yazigi,
                          > Roxolani, Aorsi, Alani) on the Baltic.****

                          Okay, so they were improper Sarmatians. That was my impression too. I'm fine with that.


                          Torsten
                        • tgpedersen
                          ... BTW on those Hilleviones; this has been on my to-do list for some time: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58290
                          Message 12 of 21 , Aug 7 2:29 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Ah, where were we...
                            >
                            > Pliny, Naturalis Historia, Book IV. XIII.:
                            > http://tinyurl.com/nmmg7j
                            > '
                            > 96 Incipit deinde clarior aperiri fama ab gente Inguaeonum, quae est prima in Germania. Mons Saevo ibi, inmensus nec Ripaeis iugis minor, inmanem ad Cimbrorum usque promunturium efficit sinum, qui Codanus vocatur, refertus insulis, quarum clarissima est Scatinavia, inconpertae magnitudinis, portionem tantum eius, quod notum sit, Hillevionum gente quingentis incolente pagis: quare alterum orbem terrarum eam appellant. nec minor est opinione Aeningia.
                            >
                            > 97 quidam haec habitari ad Vistlam usque fluvium a Sarmatis, Venedis, Sciris, Hirris tradunt, sinum Cylipenum vocari et in ostio eius insulam Latrim, mox alterum sinum Lagnum, conterminum Cimbris. promunturium Cimbrorum excurrens in maria longe paeninsulam efficit, quae Tastris appellatur. XXIII inde insulae Romanis armis cognitae. earum nobilissimae Burcana, Fabaria nostris dicta a frugis multitudine sponte provenientis, item Glaesaria a sucino militiae appellata, barbaris Austeravia, praeterque Actania.'
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > "From this point more definite information begins
                            > to open up, beginning with the race of the Inguaeones,
                            > the first that we come to in Germany. Here there
                            > is an enormous mountain, the Saevo, as big as those
                            > of the Ripaean range, which forms an enormous
                            > bay reaching to the Cimbrian promontory; it is
                            > named the Codanian Gulf, and is studded with islands.
                            > The most famous of these is Scandinavia; its size
                            > has not been ascertained, and so far as is known,
                            > only part of it is inhabited, its natives being the
                            > Hilleviones, who dwell in 500 villages, and call their
                            > island a second world. Aeningia is thought to be
                            > equally big. Some authorities report that these
                            > regions as far as the river Vistula are inhabited by
                            > the Sarmati, Venedi, Sciri and Hirri, and that there
                            > is a gulf named Cyhpenus, with the island of Latris
                            > at its mouth, and then another gulf, that of Lagnus,
                            > at which is the frontier of the Cimbri. The Cimbrian
                            > promontory projects a long way into the sea, forming
                            > a peninsula called Tastris. Then there are twenty-
                            > three islands known to the armed forces of Rome ;
                            > the most noteworthy of these are Burcana, called
                            > by our people Bean Island from the quantity of wild
                            > beans growing there, and the island which by the
                            > soldiery is called Glass Island from its amber, but
                            > by the barbarians Austeravia, and also Actania."
                            >



                            BTW on those Hilleviones; this has been on my to-do list for some time:



                            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58290
                            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58311
                            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58325

                            Note the Hallins:
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilleviones
                            'In the 6th century AD, Jordanes wrote that among the many tribes inhabiting the island of Scandza were the Suehans and the Hallins'

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalundborg
                            at the end of a fjord
                            http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolindsund
                            once a narrow overgrown strait
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolding
                            at the end of a fjord

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calates

                            Aage Houken
                            Håndbog i danske stednavne

                            'KOLD, adj. glda. kaldær, vn. kaldr.
                            Bruges i stn. om sur, fugtig jord el. i sammensætninger, hvor der kan sigtes til kold beliggenhed
                            [KOLD, adj. ODa. kaldær, vn kaldr.
                            Used in cmpd. of acidic, humid earth, or in cmpd. in which cold location might be referred to.]:
                            Koldmose, Koldkilde, Koldbæk, Kuldbjerg, Gadbjerg s. Tørrild h.

                            1. Kasted s. Hasle h. *1215-24 Calztat. Se reg. A: STED 88.
                            2. Kolding, se reg. F: 25.
                            Kolind s. Djurs Nørre h. *1416 Kollingh, 1467 Kalingh.
                            Begge navne går tilbage på et opr. *Kaldung, en afledning til adj. kold; byerne ligger begge i bunden af fjorde. Efter Hald er *Kaldungh opr. navn på det udtørrede Kolindsund. I dial. på stedet er -ing blevet til -ind. Hald VS 44.
                            [Both names go back to an orig. *Kaldung, a derivative of the adj. kold "cold"; the towns are both situated at the end of fjords]
                            3. Koldby, Hjerpsted s. Højer h. 1543 Koldebuy.
                            Skal efter DS V, 314 i forleddet rumme en afledning *kalda, vn. kalda „kold kilde".
                            4. Kollemorten, Ø. Nykirke s. Nørvang h. *1401-50 Kallæ Martin, 1466 Kollemorten. Efterleddet er tun „gårdsplads, indhegning", mellemleddet mark el. mar „sump". Se DS VIII, 63. Reg. A: TUN 4.
                            5. Kaldred, Bregninge s. Skippinge h. c. 1370 Kaldruthæ. [near Kalundborg]
                            Efterled rud „rydning" med vokalreduktion til e, vel udtalt [&] i tryksvag position. Det er mul. subst re:th, vn. rétt „indhegning". Se reg. A: RE:TH 3, RØD 63. ANM.
                            Om navne som Koldkur, Kollekolle, Koldkåd se nedenfor under KÅD.
                            Om Kolby, Samsø, se reg. A: KARL.
                            [but Kolby (Kolby Kås) is the old ferry port of the island]
                            Da. kås (hypothetically from ON *ka:s, but not found) is (outside of Bornholm) a harbor consisting of two rows of stones set out from a coast.
                            http://www.naturbornholm.dk/default.asp?m=287
                            http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A5s
                            Since it seems to belong with this set of words:
                            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/64139
                            it is reasonable to assume *kal-/*hal- (obviously pre-Germamic) does too.
                            ...
                            Kalveboderne,
                            Jens Sørensens søkort 1697 Kallebo Gat,
                            Meiers kort 1656 Kalleboe
                            som navn på en bebyggelse på Amagers sydkyst inden for 5 småøer.
                            [as name of a settlement on the south coast of Amager within 5 small islands]
                            ...
                            Kalvø, flere steder, ofte utvivlsomt øer hvor kalve har gået til græsning. Ingen af de danske Kalvø'er ligger sammen med en større ø.
                            [Kalø, several places, often without doubt islands where calves have been taken for grazing. None of the Danish Kalvø's are situated near a larger island.]
                            Kalø, Bregnet s. Ø. Lisbjerg h. er kendt også som hgd. *1320 Kalløff, 1340 Caluø.'
                            http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kal%C3%B8
                            http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kal%C3%B8_Slotsruin

                            Kalundborg (with Kaldred) - Kolby - Kalø is the old direct route between Sjælland and Jutland (now ending instead in Århus slightly to the south of Kalø Vig).

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halland

                            de Vries:
                            'halr m. 'mann'
                            (< germ. * haliþ, mit Schwund dental im Auslaut), aschw. hälith. —
                            Ob wgerm. Halamardus 'Göttername in einer weihe-inschrift' hierher gehört, wie v. Grienberger Zfda 35, 1891 vermutet,
                            ist recht unsicher; vgl.
                            ae. hæle, hæleð 'mann, held', as. helið, ahd. helid 'held'. —
                            gr. kéllo: 'treibe', kélomai 'treibe an', lat. celer 'rasch', ai. kaláyati 'treibt'. —
                            vgl. halda und ho,lðr.
                            Nach IEW 524 eher zu ai. kalya 'gesund, rüstig', gr. kállos 'Schönheit'. —
                            Nicht als 'mann aus Halland' zu deuten, wie F. Jónsson, Sprogforh. 307 erwägt (also wie virðar, ýtar).
                            Ein zweites wort halr dürfte run. norw. hali akk. sg. (Wetzstein von Ström 7. Jht), sein,
                            das kaum so früh aus *haliþ gekürzt sein kann.
                            Deshalb nimmt Kiil ANF 68, 1953, 89-95 ein wort *hali- an,
                            verwandt mit hel,
                            und das also 'toter, totgeweihter' bedeuten soll.
                            An mehreren stellen in der an. lit. hat das wort halr eine pejorative bedeutung.'

                            From *Kal-et- "kal- inhabitant"? The double-valued connotation might indicate an old ethnic conflict.

                            UEW:
                            'kala 'Fisch' U
                            Finn. kala 'Fisch';
                            est. kala |

                            lapp. N guolle -l-, L kuolle:, K (328) T ki:,lle, Kld. ku~,ll, Not. kuo,ll |

                            mord E M kal |

                            tscher. KB U B kol |

                            ostj. (OL 281) V kul, DN xut´, O xul (Vj. n´är&k kul usw. 'roher Fisch'> syrj. I Ob n´arxul) |

                            wog. (WV 115) TJ ko:l, KU So. xu:l, P kul |

                            ung. hal ||

                            sam.
                            jur. (165) O xa:l´e, Nj. ka:r´e;
                            jen. Ch. kaðe, (Donn.—Joki: ISFOu. 58/1: 13) Ch. kare, K kare B kare;
                            twg. kole, (Donn.—Joki: a.a.O. 16) kuale, kuolle;
                            selk. (Donn. Mskr.) TaM kel, qel, Ty. kel, (MSFOu. 49: 32) qeli, Ke. k,uel, (Leht.: MSFOu. 122: 320) Tur.qe:li: kam. kola;
                            koib.(Klapr., mitg.Donn.: MSFOu. (64, 32, 41) kola;
                            mot. (ebd.) kele;
                            karag. (Pall., mitg. Donn.: MSFOu. 64: 17) kalè;
                            taig. (Klapr., mitg. Donn.: MSFOu. 64: 41) kallà.

                            Vgl. ? alt.:
                            ma.-tung. *k´olo ~ *k´olto:
                            tung. ollo, oldo, olro, lam. olra 'Fisch',
                            orok. xolto,
                            ude oloxo,
                            gold. xolto(n) 'gekochter Fisch';
                            ieur.: lat. squalus 'ein größerer Meerfisch' (<*(s)qalo).


                            kalæ 1 Netz' U
                            Finn. (T. I. Itk.: JSFOu. 32/3: 66)
                            kalin (Gen. kalimen) 'rectis quaedam species ad sagenam pertinens'
                            (> lapp. Ko. Not. ka:l,em 'das zweite Teilnetz des Zugnetzes vom Netzsacke aus gerechnet');
                            est. kale 'Schleppbeutelnetz' |

                            syrj.
                            S kulem 'ugf. 10-15 Klafter langes Netz mit Flößen und Netzsenkern',
                            P kuve:m 'Beutelnetz, Fischreuse (?)' |

                            ostj. (OL 88) V kal&w, DN xot&p, O xal&p 'Netz' |

                            wog. (Kann. Mskr.) KU xul&p, P ku:l&p, So. xu:l&p 'verkko; Netz' |

                            ung. háló 'Netz; Fischergarn; Schlinge' ||

                            sam.
                            jen. Ch. kuoðese?, B kuorese?.

                            Finn. und syrj. m, das obugrische p, und ung. ó (< *p oder *m) sind denom. Nominalsuffixe.


                            kälä- 'waten' FU
                            ? Finn. kahlaa-, kaalaa- 'waten' (< ? lapp.);
                            ? est. (Eesti-venesõnaraamat 1955) kahla- 'bresti v vode, perexoditI' (< ? finn.) |
                            1app. N galle-, -a:l- 'id., (tr.) wade in', L ka:lle:- 'waten', K (321) T Kld. Not. ka:,lle- |

                            mord. E. kel´e-, M käl´e- |

                            tscher. KB kelä-, U B kela-|

                            wotj. S kol- 'ins Wasser treten', (Wichm., mitg. Uot.: 65: 190) G kolî- 'waten' |

                            syrj. S kel-, PO kó:l- |

                            ostj. (OL 213) V kül-, DN kit-, O kil- 'aufsteigen; an Land gehen, (465) aufstehen' |

                            wog. (Kann.: FUF 14:35, 73)
                            TJ koäl-, KU koöl-, So. koa:l- 'aufstehen; landen', (Kann.—Liim.: MSFOu. 101: 376,134: 94,251)
                            P ka:l- ~ koal-, kal- 'aufstehen, fahren, kommen' |

                            ung.
                            kel- 'aufstehen; sich erheben; aufgehen (Sonne); keimen, sprießen',
                            átkel- 'hinüberfahren; (einen Fluß) durchschreiten', kelet 'Ost; (altung.) Furt, Obergang',
                            kelö´ 'átjáró (a kís ereken); Furt über die kleine Bäche)'.

                            Vgl. juk. kel-, kolu 'come, go'; alt.: türk. kel- 'come'.
                            Die Zugehörigkeit des. finn. Wortes ist wegen ah, aa der ersten Silbe unsicher.
                            In den Ug. Sprachen kann eine Bedeutungsentwicklung
                            'waten' -> 'landen' -> 'aufsteigen, aufstehen'
                            eingetreten sein.
                            Selk. q&l- '(zu Fuß) gehen' (Györke: MNy. 37: 304) gehört wegen der Velarität seines Vokals nicht hierher.

                            kälæ 1 '(geronnenes) Blut' U

                            ? lapp. N gielo, gi:llum- ~ gil'lu- ~ gi:lum-, ~ gi:lum 'clot of coagulated blood', L kielo:v ?|

                            ostj. (462) Ni. kat&, Kaz. kali 'Blut; (selt.) Beerensaft (rot)' |

                            wog. (WV 41) KU ke:l&p, VN So. ke:lp 'Blut; rot'] ||

                            ? sam. jur. (436) OP Nj. s´elw 'hart getrocknetes Blut'
                            (> syrj.
                            I s´elja 'zapeks^ijsja (o krovi)',
                            I s´elmi-, s´eljas´- 'zapekatIsja, zapec^Isja (o krovi)',
                            ostj. O s´el&w 'geronnene Blutkugel').

                            Lapp. o, m, ostj. &, wog. p und sam. jur. w sind ableitungssuffixe.
                            Wegen des anlautenden s´ ist es unsicher, ob das jur. Wort hierher gehört; als Fortsetzung von U *k würde man s erwarten.
                            Ostj. (OL 61)
                            Trj. kålp&n, wåj&G 'Opfertier (in den Gebetsprüchen)' (wåj&G 'Tier'),
                            DN xat&p 'Blut' (Lehtisalo: MSFOu. 58: 134 mit ?)
                            kann wegen des velaren Vokalismus nicht hierher gestellt werden.

                            kälæ 2 '(versumpfter) See, Bucht' FU, ? U
                            Wotj.
                            S kalem 'Busen, Bucht im Flusse',
                            (Wied.) kalim 'Pfütze, Lache' |

                            syrj.
                            Lu. Pec^. Ud. VU ti-kela Ortsname (an diesem Orte gibt es nur einen See) (Lu.), 'kleiner Waldsee (Pec^.),
                            Ort mit vielen kleinen Teichen nahe beieinander (Ud.),
                            kleine Bucht im See (VU)' (ti 'der See') |

                            ostj. (397)
                            Vj. köl,&G: jiGi töj k. 'kleines baumloses Moor in der Quellgegend eines Flusses od. bei einem Flußarm',
                            DN kal& 'gangbares, ziemlich festes Moor zwischen harten Bodenstrecken, Niederung',
                            Kaz. kal, 'baumloses, nasses Moor, Sumpf, im Winter stellenweise nicht zugefroren' |

                            wog. (WV 138)
                            KU ke:li (?>ostj. Kam. kel& 'nicht zugefroren (Stelle)'),
                            P ke:l&G, So. ke:liG 'Morast'
                            (>ostj. s^erk. kel& 'c^istoe boloto bez derevIev') ||

                            ? sam. selk. kêl´, kuel´ 'Seebusen, Flußbusen', (Donn. Mskr.) Ty. köl 'Flußbusen'.

                            Wotj. m, syrj. a und ostj., wog. G sind ableitungssuffixe.
                            Wegen des anlautenden k ist es unsicher, ob das selk. Wort hierher gehört.
                            Selk. Ta. kaalds^ 'schmale, niedrige, nasse Tundra mit Wald auf beiden Seiten'
                            (Gombocz: NyK 32: 193) gehört aus lautlichen Gründen nicht hierher.


                            kältä- 'fischen (mit dem Zugnetz)' FP

                            Tscher. (Beke: MSFOu. 76:55) *kelð&- 'Fische fangen',
                            (MRS) kelðe 'nevod',
                            B kelðe 'eine Art großen Netzes aus Leinwand für zwei Fischer' |

                            wotj.
                            S K kalt-, (Wichm.: MSFOu. 36:73)
                            G kaltî.- 'mit dem Zugnetz fischen',
                            S K kalton 'Zugnetz' |

                            syrj.
                            S Lu. kelt-, V kevt- 'mit dem Zugnetz fischen (S V), aus der Suppe die besten Bissen herausfischen (Lu.),
                            S keltin 'kleines Zugnetz'.

                            Tscher. e (<*ek) in kelðe ist ein Ableitungssuffix.
                            Möglicherweise ist FP *kältä- eine kausative Ableitung von FU *kälä- 'waten' in FP Zeit.
                            Die Zusammenstellung der perm. Wörter mit lapp. go:,l´de- 'rummage about...' usw. ist nicht akzeptabel.
                            Siehe auch *kulta- 'fischen (? mit dem Zugnetz, Treibnetz)' FU, ? U.

                            kulta- 'fischen (? mit dem Zugnetz, Treibnetz)' FU, ? U
                            lapp.
                            N go,l´de- -ld-
                            'rummage about,
                            dabble in something,
                            ladle or take food out of the cooking-pot for the animals' food;
                            deplenish a river of its fish',
                            L kålte:- 'einen Gegenstand aus einer Flüssigkeit (heraus)schöpfen, herausnehmen',
                            N go,ldâ l´dag- 'linked drift-nets',
                            L kåltå 'ein Zugnetz'
                            (> finn. dial. kulta-, kuulta- 'fänga fisk under lektiden; Fische fangen während der Laichzeit; gräva i; graben, wühlen;
                            (SKES) lippoa (sukoja koskesta); Schnäpel aus der Stromschnelle fangen (keschern)',
                            kulle (Gen. kultern) 'eine Art Lachsnetz, Treibnetz',
                            kar.
                            kuulta-, kuullatta- 'kuultaa, kalastaa kutuaikana; fischen während der Laichzeit') |

                            ostj. (378)
                            Trj. kol- 'Fische auf eine besondere Weise fangen',
                            Kaz. xo,lt- 'mit einer schwimmenden Reuse fischen',
                            Vj. kolt&: k. joG&lpon 'eine Art Treibnetz' (joG&lpon 'beutelartiges Trampnetz'),
                            Kam. xutt& : x. pun 'Treibnetz',
                            O xolti: x. pon 'schwimmende Reuse, sackartiges Treibnetz' (pun, pon 'Reuse') |

                            wog. (VNGy. 1: 265,264)
                            LM khult-: lunt khulti 'a lúd orrával keres, kutat; die Gans sucht mit ihrem Schnabel',
                            LO xult- 'kalydanom promys^ljatI',
                            xultne pon 'kalydan' (pon keceháló; Garnnetz') ||

                            ?? sam.
                            selk. (Erd.) Ta. qoltæi- 'schöpfen'.

                            Selk. æi ist ein Ableitungssuffix.
                            Im Gegensatz zu mehreren Forschern (s. Literatur) gehört das finn. Wort nicht in den Urwortschatz der finn. Sprache.
                            Nach Posti (KSVk. 1978: 61) stammt das finn. kuulta-, kulta- aus dem Wort kuule- 'hören'.
                            Die Bedeutung 'Fische fangen' könnte man auf Grund der dialektalen Bedeutung 'fühlen, tasten' des finn. Verbs kuule- gut erklären.
                            In der ostj. Trj. Form ist das t aus dem Stamm verschwunden.
                            Das selk. Wort gehört nur dann hierher, wenn seine ursprüngliche Bedeutung 'fischen' war.
                            Wotj. kalt- und syrj. kelt- 'mit dem Zugnetz fischen' könnten zwar auf Grund des sporadischen Lautwandels FU *u > urpermisches *i > *o (> wotj. a, syrj. e) als die Entsprechungen des lapp. go,l´de- erklärt werden, sie gehören aber sowohl lautlich wie auch semantisch eher in einen anderen etymologischen Zusammenhang
                            (s. unter *kältä- 'fischen (mit dem Zugnetz)' FP.

                            Collinder
                            'fi kalin ~ kalime- one section (net) of a dragnet;
                            est kale a kind of bag-shaped drift-net |

                            zr kulem net, (weir-)basket |

                            vg kulp net |

                            os kalew, S hot&p |

                            hu háló ||

                            ynH kuoðese net; kuoðia-, B kuorea- to fish with a net.


                            fi kalma
                            odour of a corpse;
                            spirit holding sway over a burial-ground;
                            ruler over the grave or graves, death;
                            ulcer, cancer; nether-world;
                            corpse; pallid as a corpse |

                            lp guolmâs ~ guol´bmâsâ- pale, pallid, wan |

                            md kalmo grave, tomb; kalma- bury ||

                            yr hal´mer corpse (deriv.) |

                            ynH kameðo, B kamero |

                            km kolmu spirit (of the departed).


                            vty kalym pool, puddle (of stagnant water); inlet or bay in a river (derivative) |

                            zr kõla, kola: ty-k. small inlet of a lake; small forest-lake (ty lake) |

                            vg keelyg marsh, bog |

                            os köl/&g (open ö) a kind of marsh ||

                            sk keel´, kuel´ inlet, bay of lake or river.'


                            Vasmer
                            'kal G. -a 'Kot, Unrat',
                            ukr. kal/ 'Kot, Schlamm, Schmutz',
                            abg. kalU pe:lós (Supr., Euch. Sin.),
                            bulg. kalU´t,
                            skr. k`ào G. kâla,
                            c^akav. kál, G. kála,
                            sloven. kâl/,
                            c^ech. slk. kal 'trübes Wasser, Sehlamm, Sumpf, Kot',
                            poln. kal/ 'Kot, Lache, Sumpf, Schmutz'. ||

                            Urverw.: aind. ka:las 'blauschwarz', kalan,´kam 'Fleck, Makel',
                            griech. ke:l`as ´e:méra 'schwarzer Tag', ke:l`as a`íks 'Ziege mit Fleck',
                            lat. ca:lidus 'mit einer Blässe auf der Stirn',
                            ca:li:go: 'Nebel',
                            ...

                            Andererseits vergleicht man das slav. *kalU mit griech. pe:lós, dor. pa:lós 'Lehm' (Meillet MSL. 13,291, Et. 418, Slavia 3,676ff.), doch ist letzteres von palkós: pe:lós Hesych und von lit. pélke. 'Bruch' kaum zu trennen, s. W. Schulze a. a. O., Persson 943, Walde-Hofmann 1,139; 2,239, gegen Berneker EW. 1,476 und Preobr. 1,287 ff.'



                            Hans Kuhn:
                            Vor- und frühgermanische Ortsnamen in Norddeutschland und in den Niederlanden
                            'Ein drittes vorgermanisches Suffix, an dem unser Nordwesten Anteil hat, ist -andr-. Es ist am bekanntesten wohl aus Homer. Er nennt dort in Kleinasien die Flüsse Maiandros und Skamandros und die Troerin Kassandra. In der Troas lag außerdem ein Antandros, Phrygien hatte den Fluß Alandros. Das Griechische hatte auch Lehnwörter mit diesem Suffix (darunter unser Salamander), wohl auch aus diesem Osten. Die Vorherrschaft des a ist selten so groß wie in dieser Gruppe. Außerhalb ihres Raumes gibt es kleinere Nester mit solchen Namen in den Ländern am westlichen Mittelmeer und dann eine größere Gruppe in Westdeutschland und Belgien (vgl. Bach, D. Namenkunde 2, 1, 215 f.). Am häufigsten scheinen sie da im Gebiet von Mittelrhein und Maas. Schon von Plinius ist hier, im östlichen Belgien, der Stammesname Texuandri bezeugt. Die Gruppe reicht jedoch mit 8 bis 12 Namen über den Rhein in unser Untersuchungsgebiet. Zuerst die sicheren Fälle:
                            Asendere, alte Gerichtsstätte bei Tungerloh, w. Coesfeld,
                            Callendoorn (oder Collendoorn), bei Hardenbergh, Overijssel, 1381 Calendoren, Kaldern, an der Lahn nw. Marburg, alt Calantra Calderen; diese beiden Namen scheinen mit gr. kálandra kálandros „Lerche" verwandt zu sein,
                            Geseldorn, zu Sendenhorst, sö. Münster, alt Gesondron Gisenderve,
                            Vragender, zu Lichtenvoorde, w. Winterswijk, Gelderland, alt Vragender und auch Vrageren,
                            IJsendoorn, onö. Tiel, Betuwe, alt Isandra Isendra, Zevender (Zeventer), sw. Utrecht, alt Zevendre Suvendere Zevender.

                            Hierzu kommen einige zweifelhafte Fälle:
                            Attendorn, im Sauerland, alt Attandarra Attindarra Attindere u. a., nach Dittmaier (Siedlungsnamen und Siedlungsgesch. d. Bergischen Landes, 50) gebildet aus einem Personennamen und darra „Darre", so wie Odenthal (s. unten) und Lausdorn, bei Clerf, Luxemburg (alt Lutteres- und Liutardesdarra). Da jedoch att- zu den weitverstreuten alten Namenstämmen (mit anlauts-a) gehört (Attakon Attalia Attika usw., dazu in der Nähe ein wüstes Attepe), die Stadt auch in einer altbesiedelten Kalkmulde liegt — nahe Ennest —, so glaube ich eher an ein *Attandra.

                            Deventer, Overijssel, alt Daventre u. a.; hier scheint das Suffix unsere Lautverschiebung durchgemacht zu haben. Es gibt jedoch auch Daventry in England (Northamptonshire), dazu Dentern, zu Schwitten, n. Menden, um 1230 Deventer, alle mit demselben Lautstand. Vielleicht ist der Name (in der germanisierten Form) vom niederländischen Deventer ausgegangen.

                            Ferndorf, Bach und Dorf n. Siegen, alt Berentraph Ferentreph.
                            Hellendoorn, w. Almeloe, Overijssel, alt Hellendoren Helendoren u. a.; verwandt mit Kaldern und Callendoorn, aber mit H- statt K-, oder aber „Höllentore", wie wahrscheinlich die Hellendoren, die Jellinghaus diesem Namen gleichsetzt.
                            Kiliandr, erwähnt von einem Isländer um 1150, zwischen Paderborn und Mainz.
                            Odenthal, nö. Köln, alt Vdindar Udendare -darre, nach Dittmaier ein Kompositum (vgl. zu Attendorn).
                            Öhndorf, Bach, zur Sieg bei Betzdorf, mdal. Ürndoff, von Dittmaier (Das apa-Problem 49) aus *Urindr-apa erklärt.
                            Varentrappe, Bach und Ort, nahe Hattingen, 837 Farnthrapa; nach Dittmaier (a. a. O.) aus *Farandr-apa.
                            Waroldern, s. Arolsen, 1106 Waroldoron, Weselderen, früher Teil von Dolberg, onö. Hamm, 1269 Wiselderen, 1293 Wisel-dorle; da *Gesandra zu Geseldorn geworden ist, können Waroldern und *Weselderen wohl auf *Warandra und *Wisandra zurückgehn; sie würden dann zu weitbekannten Flußnamenstämmen gehören.'


                            Is -inde/-inge = -iþi = -isI ?

                            Just south of Kalisz is Silesia. Pretty wet that too, it seems:

                            Zbigniew Gol/a,b
                            The Origin of the Slavs, a Linguist's view
                            pp. 302-304
                            'It should, however, be noted that we cannot precisely demarcate the western boundaries of that late Proto-Slavic habitat; e.g., the regions of Western Pomorania and Lower Silesia seem to be zones of close Slavic-Germanic contacts, of mixed colonization. The fact that even before the great migration of peoples the most important Germanic tribes in the Odra basin, the Burgundians and the Vandals, left that region, after which the Slavic population instantly reemerged, suggests that the following interpretation is most plausible: the Teutons seem to have dwelt among the basic Slavic population as transient warrior groups, most probably in some strongholds (compare the present-day Israeli settlements on the west bank of the Jordan River). Once they had abandoned them (perhaps under the pressure of the local Slavic population), the Slavic masses, no longer inhibited, moved further west and occupied the whole basin of the Odra River and poured into the L/aba basin (6th-7th cents. A.D.). These early historical times do not belong to the subject of this book. Even so, I would like to emphasize here the origins of the toponym Silesia, i.e., Slavic *SIle,z^Isko (cf. Pol. S´la,sk, OPol. S´la,sko). This adjectival derivative is based upon the hydronym *SIle,za, Pol. S´le,z.a and the oronym *SIle,z^a // SIle,z^I, Pol. S´le,z.a (góra), etc.

                            The case of the hydronym and oronym S´le,z.a and its derivatives S´la,sk(o), S´le,z.anie is not only very important, but also very revealing of a certain nationalistic bias which, unfortunately, has not been rare in European onomastics. The founder of Slavic antiquities, P. S^afarik, accepted the hypothesis proposed by I. Imsieg in 1830 of an etymological connection between these names and the Germanic ethnicon Silíggai (Ptolemy), Silingi (Hypatius, 5th cent. A.D.). This view has been maintained by the majority of leading scholars (among others L. Niederle, F. Miklosich, A. Bruckner, J. Rozwadowski; see S. Rospond, Sl/ownik staroz.ytnos´ci sl/owian´skich, 1975, V, pp. 566-67). Historical evidence about the Vandalian Silingi (Germanic Silingo:z) and linguistic (phonemic and derivational) analysis of these Slavic names strongly supported the hypothesis.

                            As to the location of this tribe, the Silingi dwelt first in present-day Upper Lusatia (the Upper Spree basin) and then, after the Markomannian Wars, they moved to Lower Silesia (3rd cent. A.D.). It is probable that their remnants still remained in Silesia in the fifth cent. A.D. and were subsequently absorbed by the Slavs (see H. L/owmian´ski, Sl/ownik staroz.ytnos´ci sl/owian´skich, 1975, V, pp. 180-81). This historical background is sufficient for an unbiased linguist, who sees the not only a regular but even quite banal treatment of Germanic lexical material in the Slavic development *Silingaz (sing.) > *SIle,z,I (cf. Germanic *kuningaz > kUne,z,I, etc.), then in the derivation of a possssive adjective *sIle,z,I > *sIle,z^I/a/e (cf. kUne,z,I > kUne,z^I/a/e, etc.). Now, it would be quite understandable that the Slavs, who surrounded the Silingian enclave, called the river and the mountain located in the center of that enclave the 'Silingian river' and 'Silingian mountain', in Proto-Slavic *SIle,z^a (re^ka)39, *SIle,z^a (gora) or *SIle,z^I *vIrxU).39 Compare the similar old possessive toponym Niemcza (*Ne^mIc^a) 'German (settlement)' also located in Silesia, just south of Mount S´le,z.a ~ Sobótka. It is revealing to note that the same oronym has also been attested in Lower Lusatia: Zlensegor (1225), Slensegor (1227), i.e., *SIle,z^a Gora, Pol. S´le,z.a Góra (cf. Rospond, loc. cit.), which would prove the older location of the Silingi. This convincing etymology, which cannot be attacked either on linguistic or historical grounds, has been strongly opposed by M. Rudnicki and S. Rospond on rather weak grounds. Since the Rudnicki-Rospond hypothesis shows some serious linguistic gaps, I will devote some remarks to a critique of it.

                            The whole idea of these authors (see M. Rudnicki, Slavia Occidentalis 8: 534-36, 1929, and 12: 398-402, 1933, and S. Rospond, Sl/ownik staroz.ytnos´ci sl/owian´skich V, 1975, p. 564 s.v. S´le,z.a and pp. 566-67 s.v. Sle,z.anie) is connected with the hypothesis of the historian W. Semkowicz, who in his article Historyczno-geograficzne podstawy S´la,ska (the first chapter of the book Historia S´la,ska, ed. St. Kutrzeba, PAU, Cracow, 1933) proposed a Slavic (Polish) etymology for these toponyms. Namely, he attempted to show that S´le,z.a, S´le,z. can be derived from the root *sle,g- contained in Pol. dial. (Wielkopolska and Mal/opolska) sie,gna,c´ 'soak, get wet', s´le,ganina 'rainy season, humidity', s´la,gwa // s´la,kwa 'humid, foggy air; foul weather; sleet', przes´la,gl/y 'soaked through' (W. Semkowicz, loc. cit., 12). The derivatives *sle,g-jI/ja, i.e., S´le,z., S´le,z.a, referring to the mountain and the river respectively, would simply mean 'foggy and humid mountain', and 'river flowing across swampy ground', which actually has justification in the climate and physiography of the region. Here I would like to note that Semkowicz's reasoning is theoretically correct at first glance; even his reconstruction of the primary form of the toponyms with -z^- from -gj- is better than Rospond's speculation about the forms *s´le,dza > s´le,za, etc., allegedly from *sle,ga in connection with the third palatalization of velars in Proto-Slavic. But if we scrutinize the dialectal Polish forms in the context of comparative Slavic material, then the "nativist" etymology loses its ground: the comparative Slavic material, supported by IE correspondences, shows that the primary form of the root, the alleged *sle,g- (Pol. dial. s´le,g-, etc.) was sle,k-, i.e., with a final voiceless k (cf. Russ. sljakot' f., dial, sljac^a 'rare mud from rain and snow', S-C sl`èka 'tide'; here also belong the regular Polish forms with k: s´la,kna,c´ 'get wet', s´la,kwa 'wet weather', Vasmer III: 682). The primary form *sle,k- has good support from comparative IE material: e.g., Lith. sliñkti, slenkù 'schleichen (von der Schlange)', Latv. slìkt 'sich senken, im Wasser untergehen', etc.: only in Germanic is there an IE variant in -g: e.g., OE slincan 'kriechen', etc. (for details see Pokorny, 961, s.v. slenk-, sleng- 'winden, drehen; sich schlingen, kriechen'). Of course, the semantic development 'creep' > 'get wet', etc., is complicated, but if we realize that as an intermediary state we could have 'to flow slowly' or something similar, the change becomes possible. In any case the dialectal Polish forms with -g- seem to be secondary, later: they probably represent an expressive voicing of primary voiceless consonants, which takes place in certain words, e.g., wielki > wielgi, glista > glizda, etc. So, the toponyms S´le,z.a, S´le,z. (or rather S´la,z. in modernized Polish form) cannot be derived from *Sle,g-ja, *Sle,g-jI, since the Proto-Slavic form of the root (i.e., dial. Pol. s´le,g-na,-c´, etc.) was *sle,k-. The old derivatives in -ja, -jI of this root would sound like *Sle,c^a, *Sle,c^I — which, of course, do not exist. In view of all these facts, we must return to the old etymology of S´le,z.a, etc., which presupposes *SIle,z^a, etc., a possessive derivative from the ethnicon *SIle,z,i, which was borrowed from the Germanic *Silingo:z (Ptolemy's Silíggai, Hypatius' Silingi). I will end my critique here, although it could be expanded, especially to take in some obvious mistakes in M. Rudnicki's linguistic reasoning (for example, his statement that "obce *Siling- z sufiksem -akU dal/oby sl/ów. *SIle,g-akU...", which is wrong because it does not take into consideration the third palatalization of velars: from *Siling-akU· we would regularly obtain SIle,z,akU). Such details would not add anything substantial to the discussion. It seemed necessary to me to raise the subject because it shows how careful we must be in etymological analysis and that attempts to prove the native etymology of a toponym at any price may divert us from linguistically and historically well-justified explanations to vague speculations.'

                            On *sla,g- etc, cf.
                            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/61680
                            It seems:
                            1) we are dealing with a loan into Germanic
                            2) the root alternates -g-/-k- in Germanic too.
                            3) the root alternates -e-/-a- too
                            cf. Da. slask, sjask "wet mess", Eng. slush

                            *kald-ward- > Hal-bard-, Hað-bard-?


                            Latvian kakls, Livonian kaggõl, Estonian kael, Gmc. xals- "neck"

                            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/48805

                            But
                            A North Caucasian Etymological Dictionary
                            '*qHwol/wV neck, collar Av.-And. *qwilu (~xw-); Darg. *qIwab; Lezg. *xIaw.
                            | Av.-And. *qwilu (~xw~) back of the head: Tind. xolu. Isolated in Tind., but with probable external parallels. |
                            Darg. *qIwab 1 neck 2 collar Ak. qaIb 1; Chir. qIwab 2.
                            Cf. also Ur., Tsud. qIwab, Kub. qIab 'neck' etc.
                            Lezg. *xIaw collar: Lezg. xew, Tab. xIaw; Ag. *X'aw; Rut. xIïw; Tsakh. xIow (Mishl.).
                            Cf. also Tab. Düb. xIaw, Lezg Khl. xIäw, Ag. Bursh., Burk. X'aw, Tp. h/aw, Obl. base *xIowa- (cf. Lezg. xiwe-, Rut. xIïwï- - whence also the direct base -xIïw, Tsakh. xIowa-). 3d class in Rut. and Tsakh.
                            See Khaidakov 1973, 90.
                            Reconstructed for the EC level. Corresspondences are regular.'

                            Obviuously too early for conclusion. But let the people judge.




                            Torsten
                          • george knysh
                            ... I found in Shchukin in his comments to chapter IX ****GK: Which Shchukin work are you citing?**** * It is noteworthy that from the mid-first century AD
                            Message 13 of 21 , Aug 7 3:29 PM
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                              --- On Fri, 8/7/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:



                              I found in Shchukin in his comments to chapter IX

                              ****GK: Which Shchukin work are you citing?****

                              '* It is noteworthy that from the mid-first century AD the burials started to appear in what is now a long chain of barrows along the Kuban' river, called "The Golden Cemetery". Male burials with weapons decidedly predominate here, and the number of Roman objects is so impressive that N.I. Veselovskiy supposed that these are burials of barbarised Romans28. However, one would have more reason to speak of Romanised barbarians. Possibly, what we have here is the cemetery of the detachment of catafracti warriors employed by the Romans to maintain order in the former Siracian lands. So far, it is hard to decide whether this auxiliary contingent of foederati consisted of the Aorsi, the Alans, or the Siraci enrolled to the Roman service. It could even consist of the representatives of different tribes.'

                              That means these Romanized Sarmatians left no particularly Sarmatian trace.

                              ****GK: Why? Shchukin doesn't say that, and Veselovskyi must have reasons to feel they are "barbarised" Romans (elements of the burial rite? objects?)****

                              In fact this could be a description of the suddenly appearing new upper layer in Przeworskia and later. Whatever Sarmatian relics was found among them might as well by archaeologists have been characterized as stray finds.

                              ****GK: Were Sarmatian relics actually found? That's news to me. As to the Shchukin text: :one would need to have a look at the description of these graves. The defeat of the Siraci by combined Roman, Bosporan, and Aorsan auxiliaries occurred in 49 CE. We know of many Aorsan (and Alan) graves in the ensuing period. It would be totally unusual for these "Golden Cemetary" burials to be so "Romanised" as to be genetically indistinguishable (if they are indeed "Romanised" barbarians.) But independently of what one decides as between the hypotheses of Veselovskyi and Shchukin (the former seems much preferable, given the cultural environment of these burials), I don't see how this applies to the Przeworskia of the time frame which is important for you, viz. 75-50 BCE. There can be no talk of Sarmatian Romanization at that time. Or "Germanization" for that matter. We have good examples of "Germanized" Scythians and (various) Sarmatians in the Gothic Chernyakhiv
                              state. From what we know of the (incompletely discussed) Przeworsk inhumations of Ariovistus' time there is no reason to view them as the reliquiae of Germanized Sarmatians. Germanized Celts at most or Celticized Germanics more probably. And when one gets to the 1rst c. CE it's too late for you isn't it?****
                            • george knysh
                              ... . ... So it would have read ... ? ****GK: It would be presumptuous of me to adequately rewrite Pliny. But I assume the text might have been something like
                              Message 14 of 21 , Aug 7 4:04 PM
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                                --- On Fri, 8/7/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
                                .
                                >
                                > GK: For the Romans "Sarmatia" ended at the Vistula. I
                                > think that the corrupted Pliny passage may have omitted something
                                > between its "Sarmatis Venedis" and its "Scirris Hirris", like a
                                > "deinde" or something similar.

                                So it would have read ... ?

                                ****GK: It would be presumptuous of me to adequately rewrite Pliny. But I assume the text might have been something like this:

                                97 quidam haec habitari ad Vistlam usque fluvium a Sarmatis
                                > Venedis,[deinde a?...] Sciris(,?) Hirris tradunt, sinum Cylipenum vocari...****


                                > I think the Scirri probably referred (in this source, whatever it
                                > was) to the Yastorf or Elbe G. population east of the Codanus on
                                > the Baltic, and west of the Vistula.****

                                So these Scirii were something else?
                                http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Scirii


                                ****GK: I would think that these migrated from the Scirian heimat on the Baltic.****
                              • tgpedersen
                                ... Rome and the Barbarians in Central and Eastern Europe 1st Century B.C. - 1st Century A.D. Part ii. The Beginning of the Early Roman Period ... Whatever his
                                Message 15 of 21 , Aug 7 5:18 PM
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                                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- On Fri, 8/7/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I found in Shchukin in his comments to chapter IX
                                  >
                                  > ****GK: Which Shchukin work are you citing?****

                                  Rome and the Barbarians in Central and Eastern Europe
                                  1st Century B.C. - 1st Century A.D.
                                  Part ii. The Beginning of the Early Roman Period


                                  > '* It is noteworthy that from the mid-first century AD the burials
                                  > started to appear in what is now a long chain of barrows along the
                                  > Kuban' river, called "The Golden Cemetery". Male burials with
                                  > weapons decidedly predominate here, and the number of Roman objects
                                  > is so impressive that N.I. Veselovskiy supposed that these are
                                  > burials of barbarised Romans28. However, one would have more reason
                                  > to speak of Romanised barbarians. Possibly, what we have here is
                                  > the cemetery of the detachment of catafracti warriors employed by
                                  > the Romans to maintain order in the former Siracian lands. So far,
                                  > it is hard to decide whether this auxiliary contingent of foederati
                                  > consisted of the Aorsi, the Alans, or the Siraci enrolled to the
                                  > Roman service. It could even consist of the representatives of
                                  > different tribes.'
                                  >
                                  > That means these Romanized Sarmatians left no particularly
                                  > Sarmatian trace.
                                  >
                                  > ****GK: Why? Shchukin doesn't say that, and Veselovskyi must have
                                  > reasons to feel they are "barbarised" Romans (elements of the
                                  > burial rite? objects?)****

                                  Whatever his reasons, they didn't impress Shchukin. And as described, they match perfectly the 'new' Germanic inhumations graves: plenty expensive Roman stuff, cheap local stuff, no other ethnic characteristics (except for the odd tamga, dragon standard and ring-pommeled sword).


                                  > In fact this could be a description of the suddenly appearing new
                                  > upper layer in Przeworskia and later. Whatever Sarmatian relics was
                                  > found among them might as well by archaeologists have been
                                  > characterized as stray finds.
                                  >
                                  > ****GK: Were Sarmatian relics actually found? That's news to me. As
                                  > to the Shchukin text: :one would need to have a look at the
                                  > description of these graves. The defeat of the Siraci by combined
                                  > Roman, Bosporan, and Aorsan auxiliaries occurred in 49 CE. We know
                                  > of many Aorsan (and Alan) graves in the ensuing period. It would be
                                  > totally unusual for these "Golden Cemetary" burials to be so
                                  > "Romanised" as to be genetically indistinguishable (if they are
                                  > indeed "Romanised" barbarians.) But independently of what one
                                  > decides as between the hypotheses of Veselovskyi and Shchukin (the
                                  > former seems much preferable, given the cultural environment of
                                  > these burials), I don't see how this applies to the Przeworskia of
                                  > the time frame which is important for you, viz. 75-50 BCE. There
                                  > can be no talk of Sarmatian Romanization at that time. Or
                                  > "Germanization" for that matter. We have good examples of
                                  > "Germanized" Scythians and (various) Sarmatians in the Gothic
                                  > Chernyakhiv state.

                                  Yes, you've said that several times.

                                  > From what we know of the (incompletely discussed) Przeworsk
                                  > inhumations of Ariovistus' time there is no reason to view them as
                                  > the reliquiae of Germanized Sarmatians.

                                  Romanized Sarmatians in Germanic lands, that was.

                                  BTW check out the spearblade A3 from Mus^ov in the File section
                                  from
                                  Jaraslav Pes^ka - Jaroslav Tejral
                                  Das germanische Königsgrab von Mus^ov in Mähren [ie Moravia]
                                  Here's the text discussing it:
                                  pp. 106-107
                                  '- Typ III (A 3): Breite Lanzenspitze mit spitzovalem Blatt, Mittelrippe vom Typ PL 4A nach Kaczanowski und Tüllenquerschnitt vom Typ PT 4 nach Kaczanowski (Ilkjær Typ 2). Dieser Typ ist ziemlich selten. Er wurde z.B. auf dem Gräberfeld in Großromstedt/D 46 festgestellt.
                                  Die Lanze vom Typ III ist ganz spezifisch, was die Verzierung (vgl. S. 109 [a spearblade decorated with small circles]) und auch die Form des Blatts betrifft. Solche breiten Lanzen waren bei den Germanen in der älteren römischen Zeit sehr ungewöhnlich [unusual]. Mit der Ausnahme der nächsten Analogie aus dem schon erwähnten Großromstedt kommen noch die Funde aus dem unweit gelegenen Gebiet entlang des Oberlaufs der Elbe in Betracht, die W. Adler4 seinem Typ Lh2 zuordnet. Auf dem Gräberfeld in Putensen werden diese Lanzen in den Ausklang der älteren römischen Kaiserzeit bzw. in die Periode der Markomannenkriege datiert.'
                                  ...
                                  pp. 108-111
                                  'Obwohl die Lanzenspitzen aus dem Grab in Musov wohl allgemein als germanisch bezeichnet werden können, gilt dies ganz eindeutig nur für die breite Spitze mit tauschierten Zeichen (A 3). Für die übrigen Typen (I, II und IV) können Analogien auch im römischen Milieu gefunden werden.
                                  Ähnliche Lanzen haben eine relativ breite Datierungsspanne 55. Aus dem oben erwähnten Vergleichsmaterial geht zwar hervor, daß der Schwerpunkt der Lanzen aus Musov in der zweiten Hälfte des 2. Jahrhunderts liegt. Einige Elemente deuten aber auf einen breiteren Zeitraum. Beim Versuch der Bestimmung gewisser Entwicklungstendenzen der Lanzenspitzen im Sinne der chronologischen Stellung dieser Funde werden am häufigsten die Form, die Länge, der Querschnitt der Spitze und auch die An-oder Abwesenheit der Mittelrippe oder das Verhältnis zwischen Blatt- und Tüllenlänge bewertet56. Alle Autoren sind sich einig, daß die Waffen dieses Typs eine eigenständige Entwicklung hatten, ohne größere Beeinflussung von außen und ohne Übernahme von fremden (z.B. römischen) Mustern57. Auf die Schwierigkeiten bei der Datierung von Lanzen- und Speerspitzen bei Anwendung der oben erwähnten Kriterien hat schon K. Godlowski58 aufmerksam gemacht. Diese Tatsache wird auch von Beobachtungen auf verschiedenen germanischen Gräberfeldern bestätigt, wo in demselben Zeithorizont eine ganze Reihe von Lanzentypen vertreten ist.


                                  Die tauschierte Verzierung der Lanzenspitze A3

                                  P. Kaczanowski59 hat ein umfassendes Verzeichnis der tauschierten Lanzen- und Pfeilspitzen ausgearbeitet. Er registriert insgesamt 59 Fundstellen auf dem Gebiet Polens (Przeworsk-Kultur) und aus Skandinavien. Uns ist es gelungen, dieses Verzeichnis nur um vier weitere Fundorte zu erweitern, d.h. Musov-Königsgrab (Nr. 60), Kvakovce in der Slowakei (Nr. 61)60, Bezno in Böhmen, okr. Mladä Boleslav/CZ (Nr. 62)61 (Abb. 7) und Akkas-Toijala in Finnland (Nr. 63)62 (Abb. 8). Zu den außergewöhnlichen Funden aus dem Königsgrab von Musov gehört die mit Silbertauschierung verzierte blattförmige Lanzenspitze A 3. Die Verzierung besteht aus Punktkreisen, Kreuz, Winkel und Doppelwinkel mit Halbmondabschlüssen. Diese Kombination der Verzierung ist sehr selten im barbarischen Milieu; dasselbe gilt für Funde der mit Tauschierung verzierten Lanzen. Am häufigsten finden wir sie im Milieu der Przeworsk-Kultur und auch in nördlichen Regionen Europas63, und zwar besonders in der zweiten Hälfte des 2. Jahrhunderts 64. Eine analoge Anordnung der Punktkreise wie auf der Tülle und auf dem Blatt zeigt die Lanze aus Serby/PL65; drei übereinander angeordneten Punktkreise besitzt z.B. das Exemplar aus Putensen, Grab 15 66; beide stehen zeitlich unserem Exemplar sehr nahe. Aus den Moorfunden im Norden Europas kennen wir mehrere mit Tauschierung verzierte Lanzen mit symmetrisch angeordneten mehrfachen Ringen. Diese Lanzen erscheinen überwiegend in den Stufen C1-C2, d. h. in der jüngeren römischen Kaiserzeit67. Zu der Kombination Kreuz, Winkel und Doppelwinkel mit Halbmondabschlüssen finden wir aber in den bis heute bekannten Quellen keine identischen Gegenstücke. Die sehr verschieden kombinierte Struktur der Verzierungselemente auf den mit Tauschierung verzierten Lanzen gipfelt in der Przeworsk-Kultur am Ende der älteren und am Anfang der jüngeren römischen Kaiserzeit68. Sehr schwierig ist die Interpretation der magischen Symbole auf der Lanze von Musov. Hinter drei Symbolen (ohne den Halbmond) könnten sich nach unserer Meinung drei Buchstaben des ältesten germanischen Runen-Alphabets, des sog. Futhark, verbergen69, das bei den germanischen Stämmen offensichtlich schon im 2. Jahrhundert n. Chr. bekannt war und sich seit dem 3. Jahrhundert besonders in Skandinavien stärker verbreitet hat. Falls folgendes gilt: Doppelwinkel = s (soweln = Sonne), Winkel = k (kaunaz = Krankheit), und Kreuz = g (gebo = Geschenk), und wenn diese Buchstaben wirklich zum Futhark gehören, dann können gewisse Kulturverbindungen des germanischen Königs aus Musov zu den Nordregionen Europas in Betracht gezogen werden.'

                                  The important thing here is: no one says 'tamga'.
                                  What's your opinion?


                                  > Germanized Celts at most or Celticized Germanics more probably.

                                  > And when one gets to the 1rst c. CE it's too late for you isn't it?****

                                  Well, it's like this: As I announced some weeks ago, but which you may have missed, I realized that whatever project Ariovistus / Harjagist had, it was ultimately a failure, so it can't have been the real origin of the spread of Germanic (the Wetterau traces of Przeworsk disappear). Therefore I must claim two separate Sarmatian vel sim. incursions, one into Przeworsk, one into the Marbod etc complex, which was more successful. They both have inhumation, but of different type.

                                  Other than that, I think both enterprises represented an old strategic dream: setting up a base near the borders of Rome's home turf, Italy, and in time launch a crushing blow to them, a dream dreamt by Filip II, Mithridates, Ariovistus, and whichever *n,Wod-an-'s followed, a dream that was ultimately successful.

                                  The quote of Shchukin of Romanized Sarmatians was meant more like a proof of concept. BTW didn't the Royal Sarmatians disappear at the same time as Zarubincy collapsed (Shchukin)?


                                  Torsten
                                • george knysh
                                  ... Rome and the Barbarians in Central and Eastern Europe 1st Century B.C. - 1st Century A.D. Part ii. The Beginning of the Early Roman Period ... Whatever his
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Aug 7 6:56 PM
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                                    --- On Sat, 8/8/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:


                                    > I found in Shchukin in his comments to chapter IX
                                    >
                                    > GK: Which Shchukin work are you citing?

                                    Rome and the Barbarians in Central and Eastern Europe
                                    1st Century B.C. - 1st Century A.D.
                                    Part ii. The Beginning of the Early Roman Period

                                    > '* It is noteworthy that from the mid-first century AD the burials
                                    > started to appear in what is now a long chain of barrows along the
                                    > Kuban' river, called "The Golden Cemetery". Male burials with
                                    > weapons decidedly predominate here, and the number of Roman objects
                                    > is so impressive that N.I. Veselovskiy supposed that these are
                                    > burials of barbarised Romans28. However, one would have more reason
                                    > to speak of Romanised barbarians. Possibly, what we have here is
                                    > the cemetery of the detachment of catafracti warriors employed by
                                    > the Romans to maintain order in the former Siracian lands. So far,
                                    > it is hard to decide whether this auxiliary contingent of foederati
                                    > consisted of the Aorsi, the Alans, or the Siraci enrolled to the
                                    > Roman service. It could even consist of the representatives of
                                    > different tribes.'
                                    >
                                    > That means these Romanized Sarmatians left no particularly
                                    > Sarmatian trace.
                                    >
                                    > GK: Why? Shchukin doesn't say that, and Veselovskyi must have
                                    > reasons to feel they are "barbarised" Romans (elements of the
                                    > burial rite? objects?)

                                    Whatever his reasons, they didn't impress Shchukin.

                                    ****GK: But the point is that there was enough there to make either hypothesis arguable, so your statement about "no particularly Sarmatian trace" would not be acceptable to either investigator. I have the highest respect for Shchukin, but he is not always right, particularly with ethnic identifications. For instance his view that the Zarubinians were Bastarnae is really untenable, for historical and archaeological reasons. Otherwise his opinions on Slavic origins seem to me correct.****

                                    And as described, they match perfectly the 'new' Germanic inhumations graves: plenty expensive Roman stuff, cheap local stuff, no other ethnic characteristics (except for the odd tamga, dragon standard and ring-pommeled sword).

                                    ****GK: You just said you didn't know Veselovskyi's reasons. So how can you be confident about there being "no other ethnic characteristic"? What I would find especially important are the structures of the graves. Does your source say anything about this? [flat? double pit? "podboy"? catacomb?]****

                                    > In fact this could be a description of the suddenly appearing new
                                    > upper layer in Przeworskia and later. Whatever Sarmatian relics was
                                    > found among them might as well by archaeologists have been
                                    > characterized as stray finds.
                                    >
                                    > GK: Were Sarmatian relics actually found? That's news to me. As
                                    > to the Shchukin text: :one would need to have a look at the
                                    > description of these graves. The defeat of the Siraci by combined
                                    > Roman, Bosporan, and Aorsan auxiliaries occurred in 49 CE. We know
                                    > of many Aorsan (and Alan) graves in the ensuing period. It would be
                                    > totally unusual for these "Golden Cemetary" burials to be so
                                    > "Romanised" as to be genetically indistinguishable (if they are
                                    > indeed "Romanised" barbarians.) But independently of what one
                                    > decides as between the hypotheses of Veselovskyi and Shchukin (the
                                    > former seems much preferable, given the cultural environment of
                                    > these burials), I don't see how this applies to the Przeworskia of
                                    > the time frame which is important for you, viz. 75-50 BCE. There
                                    > can be no talk of Sarmatian Romanization at that time. Or
                                    > "Germanization" for that matter. We have good examples of
                                    > "Germanized" Scythians and (various) Sarmatians in the Gothic
                                    > Chernyakhiv state.

                                    Yes, you've said that several times.

                                    > From what we know of the (incompletely discussed) Przeworsk
                                    > inhumations of Ariovistus' time there is no reason to view them as
                                    > the reliquiae of Germanized Sarmatians.

                                    Romanized Sarmatians in Germanic lands, that was.

                                    ****GK: Totally anachronistic for the period of Ariovistus.****

                                    BTW check out the spearblade A3 from Mus^ov in the File section
                                    from
                                    Jaraslav Pes^ka - Jaroslav Tejral
                                    Das germanische Königsgrab von Mus^ov in Mähren [ie Moravia]
                                    Here's the text discussing it:
                                    pp. 106-107
                                    '- Typ III (A 3): Breite Lanzenspitze mit spitzovalem Blatt, Mittelrippe vom Typ PL 4A nach Kaczanowski und Tüllenquerschnitt vom Typ PT 4 nach Kaczanowski (Ilkjær Typ 2). Dieser Typ ist ziemlich selten. Er wurde z.B. auf dem Gräberfeld in Großromstedt/ D 46 festgestellt.
                                    Die Lanze vom Typ III ist ganz spezifisch, was die Verzierung (vgl. S. 109 [a spearblade decorated with small circles]) und auch die Form des Blatts betrifft. Solche breiten Lanzen waren bei den Germanen in der älteren römischen Zeit sehr ungewöhnlich [unusual]. Mit der Ausnahme der nächsten Analogie aus dem schon erwähnten Großromstedt kommen noch die Funde aus dem unweit gelegenen Gebiet entlang des Oberlaufs der Elbe in Betracht, die W. Adler4 seinem Typ Lh2 zuordnet. Auf dem Gräberfeld in Putensen werden diese Lanzen in den Ausklang der älteren römischen Kaiserzeit bzw. in die Periode der Markomannenkriege datiert.'
                                    ...
                                    pp. 108-111
                                    'Obwohl die Lanzenspitzen aus dem Grab in Musov wohl allgemein als germanisch bezeichnet werden können, gilt dies ganz eindeutig nur für die breite Spitze mit tauschierten Zeichen (A 3). Für die übrigen Typen (I, II und IV) können Analogien auch im römischen Milieu gefunden werden.
                                    Ähnliche Lanzen haben eine relativ breite Datierungsspanne 55. Aus dem oben erwähnten Vergleichsmaterial geht zwar hervor, daß der Schwerpunkt der Lanzen aus Musov in der zweiten Hälfte des 2. Jahrhunderts liegt. Einige Elemente deuten aber auf einen breiteren Zeitraum. Beim Versuch der Bestimmung gewisser Entwicklungstendenz en der Lanzenspitzen im Sinne der chronologischen Stellung dieser Funde werden am häufigsten die Form, die Länge, der Querschnitt der Spitze und auch die An-oder Abwesenheit der Mittelrippe oder das Verhältnis zwischen Blatt- und Tüllenlänge bewertet56. Alle Autoren sind sich einig, daß die Waffen dieses Typs eine eigenständige Entwicklung hatten, ohne größere Beeinflussung von außen und ohne Übernahme von fremden (z.B. römischen) Mustern57. Auf die Schwierigkeiten bei der Datierung von Lanzen- und Speerspitzen bei Anwendung der oben erwähnten Kriterien hat schon K. Godlowski58 aufmerksam gemacht. Diese Tatsache
                                    wird auch von Beobachtungen auf verschiedenen germanischen Gräberfeldern bestätigt, wo in demselben Zeithorizont eine ganze Reihe von Lanzentypen vertreten ist.

                                    Die tauschierte Verzierung der Lanzenspitze A3

                                    P. Kaczanowski59 hat ein umfassendes Verzeichnis der tauschierten Lanzen- und Pfeilspitzen ausgearbeitet. Er registriert insgesamt 59 Fundstellen auf dem Gebiet Polens (Przeworsk-Kultur) und aus Skandinavien. Uns ist es gelungen, dieses Verzeichnis nur um vier weitere Fundorte zu erweitern, d.h. Musov-Königsgrab (Nr. 60), Kvakovce in der Slowakei (Nr. 61)60, Bezno in Böhmen, okr. Mladä Boleslav/CZ (Nr. 62)61 (Abb. 7) und Akkas-Toijala in Finnland (Nr. 63)62 (Abb. 8). Zu den außergewöhnlichen Funden aus dem Königsgrab von Musov gehört die mit Silbertauschierung verzierte blattförmige Lanzenspitze A 3. Die Verzierung besteht aus Punktkreisen, Kreuz, Winkel und Doppelwinkel mit Halbmondabschlü ssen. Diese Kombination der Verzierung ist sehr selten im barbarischen Milieu; dasselbe gilt für Funde der mit Tauschierung verzierten Lanzen. Am häufigsten finden wir sie im Milieu der Przeworsk-Kultur und auch in nördlichen Regionen Europas63, und zwar
                                    besonders in der zweiten Hälfte des 2. Jahrhunderts 64. Eine analoge Anordnung der Punktkreise wie auf der Tülle und auf dem Blatt zeigt die Lanze aus Serby/PL65; drei übereinander angeordneten Punktkreise besitzt z.B. das Exemplar aus Putensen, Grab 15 66; beide stehen zeitlich unserem Exemplar sehr nahe. Aus den Moorfunden im Norden Europas kennen wir mehrere mit Tauschierung verzierte Lanzen mit symmetrisch angeordneten mehrfachen Ringen. Diese Lanzen erscheinen überwiegend in den Stufen C1-C2, d. h. in der jüngeren römischen Kaiserzeit67. Zu der Kombination Kreuz, Winkel und Doppelwinkel mit Halbmondabschlü ssen finden wir aber in den bis heute bekannten Quellen keine identischen Gegenstücke. Die sehr verschieden kombinierte Struktur der Verzierungselemente auf den mit Tauschierung verzierten Lanzen gipfelt in der Przeworsk-Kultur am Ende der älteren und am Anfang der jüngeren römischen Kaiserzeit68. Sehr schwierig ist die Interpretation
                                    der magischen Symbole auf der Lanze von Musov. Hinter drei Symbolen (ohne den Halbmond) könnten sich nach unserer Meinung drei Buchstaben des ältesten germanischen Runen-Alphabets, des sog. Futhark, verbergen69, das bei den germanischen Stämmen offensichtlich schon im 2. Jahrhundert n. Chr. bekannt war und sich seit dem 3. Jahrhundert besonders in Skandinavien stärker verbreitet hat. Falls folgendes gilt: Doppelwinkel = s (soweln = Sonne), Winkel = k (kaunaz = Krankheit), und Kreuz = g (gebo = Geschenk), und wenn diese Buchstaben wirklich zum Futhark gehören, dann können gewisse Kulturverbindungen des germanischen Königs aus Musov zu den Nordregionen Europas in Betracht gezogen werden.'

                                    The important thing here is: no one says 'tamga'.
                                    What's your opinion?

                                    ****GK: It'll take me awhile to go through this with my dictionary...I take it no one says "Sarmatian" either?****

                                    > Germanized Celts at most or Celticized Germanics more probably.

                                    > And when one gets to the 1rst c. CE it's too late for you isn't it?

                                    Well, it's like this: As I announced some weeks ago, but which you may have missed, I realized that whatever project Ariovistus / Harjagist had, it was ultimately a failure, so it can't have been the real origin of the spread of Germanic (the Wetterau traces of Przeworsk disappear). Therefore I must claim two separate Sarmatian vel sim. incursions, one into Przeworsk,

                                    ****GK: Still waiting for proof of this. Description of ther Przeworsk graves essential I'm afraid. Like I said "inhumation" is not enough.

                                    one into the Marbod etc complex, which was more successful. They both have inhumation, but of different type.

                                    ****GK: But neither type is demonstrably Sarmatian as far as I can determine from the materials presented so far...****

                                    Other than that, I think both enterprises represented an old strategic dream: setting up a base near the borders of Rome's home turf, Italy, and in time launch a crushing blow to them, a dream dreamt by Filip II, Mithridates, Ariovistus, and whichever *n,Wod-an-'s followed, a dream that was ultimately successful.

                                    The quote of Shchukin of Romanized Sarmatians was meant more like a proof of concept. BTW didn't the Royal Sarmatians disappear at the same time as Zarubincy collapsed (Shchukin)?

                                    ****GK: Earlier I think. The last one to mention them was Appianus in his Mithridatic Wars (#69). It seems that they were the Roxolani. Strabo's "Royals" were not Sarmatian but Scythian. and their "Ourgoi" (=Georgoi) associates were the Zarubinians.****

                                    Torsten
                                  • tgpedersen
                                    ... Aha! Oho! Allied with people from Georgia/Vani! I m off to the library. Torsten
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Aug 8 4:29 AM
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                                      > The quote of Shchukin of Romanized Sarmatians was meant more like a
                                      > proof of concept. BTW didn't the Royal Sarmatians disappear at the
                                      > same time as Zarubincy collapsed (Shchukin)?
                                      >
                                      > ****GK: Earlier I think. The last one to mention them was Appianus in his Mithridatic Wars (#69). It seems that they were the Roxolani. Strabo's "Royals" were not Sarmatian but Scythian. and their "Ourgoi" (=Georgoi) associates were the Zarubinians.****
                                      >

                                      Aha! Oho! Allied with people from Georgia/Vani!
                                      I'm off to the library.


                                      Torsten
                                    • tgpedersen
                                      ... But I disagree. ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calates Another east-west sea-borne match. Torsten
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Aug 18 9:17 AM
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Ah, where were we...
                                        > >
                                        > > Pliny, Naturalis Historia, Book IV. XIII.:
                                        > > http://tinyurl.com/nmmg7j
                                        > > '
                                        > > 96 Incipit deinde clarior aperiri fama ab gente Inguaeonum, quae
                                        > > est prima in Germania. Mons Saevo ibi, inmensus nec Ripaeis iugis
                                        > > minor, inmanem ad Cimbrorum usque promunturium efficit sinum, qui
                                        > > Codanus vocatur, refertus insulis, quarum clarissima est
                                        > > Scatinavia, inconpertae magnitudinis, portionem tantum eius, quod
                                        > > notum sit, Hillevionum gente quingentis incolente pagis: quare
                                        > > alterum orbem terrarum eam appellant. nec minor est opinione
                                        > > Aeningia.
                                        > >
                                        > > 97 quidam haec habitari ad Vistlam usque fluvium a Sarmatis,
                                        > > Venedis, Sciris, Hirris tradunt, sinum Cylipenum vocari et in
                                        > > ostio eius insulam Latrim, mox alterum sinum Lagnum, conterminum
                                        > > Cimbris. promunturium Cimbrorum excurrens in maria longe
                                        > > paeninsulam efficit, quae Tastris appellatur. XXIII inde insulae
                                        > > Romanis armis cognitae. earum nobilissimae Burcana, Fabaria
                                        > > nostris dicta a frugis multitudine sponte provenientis, item
                                        > > Glaesaria a sucino militiae appellata, barbaris Austeravia,
                                        > > praeterque Actania.'
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > "From this point more definite information begins
                                        > > to open up, beginning with the race of the Inguaeones,
                                        > > the first that we come to in Germany. Here there
                                        > > is an enormous mountain, the Saevo, as big as those
                                        > > of the Ripaean range, which forms an enormous
                                        > > bay reaching to the Cimbrian promontory; it is
                                        > > named the Codanian Gulf, and is studded with islands.
                                        > > The most famous of these is Scandinavia; its size
                                        > > has not been ascertained, and so far as is known,
                                        > > only part of it is inhabited, its natives being the
                                        > > Hilleviones, who dwell in 500 villages, and call their
                                        > > island a second world. Aeningia is thought to be
                                        > > equally big. Some authorities report that these
                                        > > regions as far as the river Vistula are inhabited by
                                        > > the Sarmati, Venedi, Sciri and Hirri, and that there
                                        > > is a gulf named Cyhpenus, with the island of Latris
                                        > > at its mouth, and then another gulf, that of Lagnus,
                                        > > at which is the frontier of the Cimbri. The Cimbrian
                                        > > promontory projects a long way into the sea, forming
                                        > > a peninsula called Tastris. Then there are twenty-
                                        > > three islands known to the armed forces of Rome ;
                                        > > the most noteworthy of these are Burcana, called
                                        > > by our people Bean Island from the quantity of wild
                                        > > beans growing there, and the island which by the
                                        > > soldiery is called Glass Island from its amber, but
                                        > > by the barbarians Austeravia, and also Actania."
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > BTW on those Hilleviones; this has been on my to-do list for some
                                        > time:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58290
                                        > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58311
                                        > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58325
                                        >
                                        > Note the Hallins:
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilleviones
                                        > 'In the 6th century AD, Jordanes wrote that among the many tribes
                                        > inhabiting the island of Scandza were the Suehans and the Hallins'
                                        >

                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halland
                                        >
                                        > de Vries:
                                        > 'halr m. 'mann'
                                        > (< germ. * haliþ, mit Schwund dental im Auslaut), aschw. hälith. —
                                        > Ob wgerm. Halamardus 'Göttername in einer weihe-inschrift' hierher
                                        > gehört, wie v. Grienberger Zfda 35, 1891 vermutet, ist recht
                                        > unsicher; vgl.
                                        > ae. hæle, hæleð 'mann, held', as. helið, ahd. helid 'held'. —
                                        > gr. kéllo: 'treibe', kélomai 'treibe an', lat. celer 'rasch', ai.
                                        > kaláyati 'treibt'. —
                                        > vgl. halda und ho,lðr.
                                        > Nach IEW 524 eher zu ai. kalya 'gesund, rüstig', gr. kállos
                                        > 'Schönheit'. —
                                        > Nicht als 'mann aus Halland' zu deuten, wie F. Jónsson, Sprogforh.
                                        > 307 erwägt (also wie virðar, ýtar).

                                        But I disagree.


                                        > Ein zweites wort halr dürfte run. norw. hali akk. sg. (Wetzstein
                                        > von Ström 7. Jht), sein, das kaum so früh aus *haliþ gekürzt sein
                                        > kann. Deshalb nimmt Kiil ANF 68, 1953, 89-95 ein wort *hali- an,
                                        > verwandt mit hel, und das also 'toter, totgeweihter' bedeuten soll.
                                        > An mehreren stellen in der an. lit. hat das wort halr eine
                                        > pejorative bedeutung.'
                                        >
                                        > From *Kal-et- "kal- inhabitant"? The double-valued connotation
                                        > might indicate an old ethnic conflict.
                                        >

                                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calates
                                        Another east-west sea-borne match.


                                        Torsten
                                      • tgpedersen
                                        ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kylfings Wikipedia Cylipenus redirects here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_kiel for whatever reason. cf. Greek kolpos,
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Aug 18 9:46 AM
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Ah, where were we...
                                          > >
                                          > > Pliny, Naturalis Historia, Book IV. XIII.:
                                          > > http://tinyurl.com/nmmg7j
                                          > > '
                                          > > 96 Incipit deinde clarior aperiri fama ab gente Inguaeonum, quae
                                          > > est prima in Germania. Mons Saevo ibi, inmensus nec Ripaeis iugis
                                          > > minor, inmanem ad Cimbrorum usque promunturium efficit sinum, qui
                                          > > Codanus vocatur, refertus insulis, quarum clarissima est
                                          > > Scatinavia, inconpertae magnitudinis, portionem tantum eius, quod
                                          > > notum sit, Hillevionum gente quingentis incolente pagis: quare
                                          > > alterum orbem terrarum eam appellant. nec minor est opinione
                                          > > Aeningia.
                                          > >
                                          > > 97 quidam haec habitari ad Vistlam usque fluvium a Sarmatis,
                                          > > Venedis, Sciris, Hirris tradunt, sinum Cylipenum vocari et in
                                          > > ostio eius insulam Latrim, mox alterum sinum Lagnum, conterminum
                                          > > Cimbris. promunturium Cimbrorum excurrens in maria longe
                                          > > paeninsulam efficit, quae Tastris appellatur. XXIII inde insulae
                                          > > Romanis armis cognitae. earum nobilissimae Burcana, Fabaria
                                          > > nostris dicta a frugis multitudine sponte provenientis, item
                                          > > Glaesaria a sucino militiae appellata, barbaris Austeravia,
                                          > > praeterque Actania.'
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > "From this point more definite information begins
                                          > > to open up, beginning with the race of the Inguaeones,
                                          > > the first that we come to in Germany. Here there
                                          > > is an enormous mountain, the Saevo, as big as those
                                          > > of the Ripaean range, which forms an enormous
                                          > > bay reaching to the Cimbrian promontory; it is
                                          > > named the Codanian Gulf, and is studded with islands.
                                          > > The most famous of these is Scandinavia; its size
                                          > > has not been ascertained, and so far as is known,
                                          > > only part of it is inhabited, its natives being the
                                          > > Hilleviones, who dwell in 500 villages, and call their
                                          > > island a second world. Aeningia is thought to be
                                          > > equally big. Some authorities report that these
                                          > > regions as far as the river Vistula are inhabited by
                                          > > the Sarmati, Venedi, Sciri and Hirri, and that there
                                          > > is a gulf named Cylipenus, with the island of Latris
                                          > > at its mouth, and then another gulf, that of Lagnus,
                                          > > at which is the frontier of the Cimbri. The Cimbrian
                                          > > promontory projects a long way into the sea, forming
                                          > > a peninsula called Tastris. Then there are twenty-
                                          > > three islands known to the armed forces of Rome ;
                                          > > the most noteworthy of these are Burcana, called
                                          > > by our people Bean Island from the quantity of wild
                                          > > beans growing there, and the island which by the
                                          > > soldiery is called Glass Island from its amber, but
                                          > > by the barbarians Austeravia, and also Actania."
                                          > >

                                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kylfings
                                          Wikipedia Cylipenus redirects here:
                                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_kiel
                                          for whatever reason.

                                          cf. Greek kolpos,
                                          Engl. gulf (Skeat: formerly goulfe < Fr. golfe < Greek sideform kolphos),
                                          Du. golf "wave; gulf".
                                          (Note similar variation in Du. kolf "club", Eng. golf, and the liquid metathesis with 'club')


                                          Torsten
                                        • Torsten
                                          ... Anatoly S. Skripkin Östliche und westliche Neuerungen in der materiellen Kultur der Sarmaten der europäischen Steppen in den ersten Jahrhunderten n. Chr.
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Oct 6, 2009
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > --- On Fri, 8/7/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I found in Shchukin in his comments to chapter IX
                                            >
                                            > ****GK: Which Shchukin work are you citing?****
                                            >
                                            > '* It is noteworthy that from the mid-first century AD the burials
                                            > started to appear in what is now a long chain of barrows along the
                                            > Kuban' river, called "The Golden Cemetery". Male burials with
                                            > weapons decidedly predominate here, and the number of Roman objects
                                            > is so impressive that N.I. Veselovskiy supposed that these are
                                            > burials of barbarised Romans28. However, one would have more reason
                                            > to speak of Romanised barbarians. Possibly, what we have here is
                                            > the cemetery of the detachment of catafracti warriors employed by
                                            > the Romans to maintain order in the former Siracian lands. So far,
                                            > it is hard to decide whether this auxiliary contingent of foederati
                                            > consisted of the Aorsi, the Alans, or the Siraci enrolled to the
                                            > Roman service. It could even consist of the representatives of
                                            > different tribes.'
                                            >
                                            > That means these Romanized Sarmatians left no particularly
                                            > Sarmatian trace.
                                            >
                                            > ****GK: Why? Shchukin doesn't say that, and Veselovskyi must have
                                            > reasons to feel they are "barbarised" Romans (elements of the
                                            > burial rite? objects?)****
                                            >
                                            > In fact this could be a description of the suddenly appearing new
                                            > upper layer in Przeworskia and later. Whatever Sarmatian relics was
                                            > found among them might as well by archaeologists have been
                                            > characterized as stray finds.
                                            >
                                            > ****GK: Were Sarmatian relics actually found? That's news to me. As
                                            > to the Shchukin text: :one would need to have a look at the
                                            > description of these graves. The defeat of the Siraci by combined
                                            > Roman, Bosporan, and Aorsan auxiliaries occurred in 49 CE. We know
                                            > of many Aorsan (and Alan) graves in the ensuing period. It would be
                                            > totally unusual for these "Golden Cemetary" burials to be so
                                            > "Romanised" as to be genetically indistinguishable (if they are
                                            > indeed "Romanised" barbarians.) But independently of what one
                                            > decides as between the hypotheses of Veselovskyi and Shchukin (the
                                            > former seems much preferable, given the cultural environment of
                                            > these burials), I don't see how this applies to the Przeworskia of
                                            > the time frame which is important for you, viz. 75-50 BCE. There
                                            > can be no talk of Sarmatian Romanization at that time. Or
                                            > "Germanization" for that matter. We have good examples of
                                            > "Germanized" Scythians and (various) Sarmatians in the Gothic
                                            > Chernyakhiv state. From what we know of the (incompletely
                                            > discussed) Przeworsk inhumations of Ariovistus' time there is no
                                            > reason to view them as the reliquiae of Germanized Sarmatians.
                                            > Germanized Celts at most or Celticized Germanics more probably. And
                                            > when one gets to the 1rst c. CE it's too late for you isn't it?****
                                            >

                                            Anatoly S. Skripkin
                                            Östliche und westliche Neuerungen in der materiellen Kultur der Sarmaten der europäischen Steppen in den ersten Jahrhunderten n. Chr.
                                            in
                                            Claus von Carnap-Bornheim (ed.)
                                            Kontakt - Kooperation - Konflikt
                                            Germanen und Sarmaten zwischen dem 1. und dem 4. Jahrhundert nach Christus
                                            'Und zuletzt war für Rom auch die Situation im Bosporischen Herrschaftsgebiet, das bis zu dieser Zeit ein Vasall Roms war, nicht gleichgültig. Rom war stark an einer prorömischen Orientierung des Bosporusgebiets interessiert, und beim Versuch, die Situation zu ändern, benutzte es Kontingente benachbarter Nomadenstämme. Dies war beispielsweise in der Mitte des 1. Jh. n. Chr. der Fall, als Mitridatos VIII. versuchte, sich von der Vormundschaft Roms zu befreien und die Römer die Aorsen zu einem Bündnis gegen ihn heranzogen28.'

                                            "And finally, Rome would worry about the situation in the Bosporan state, which until this tome was its vassal. Rome was strongly interested in a pro-Roman orientation of the Bosporus area, and in the attempt to change the situation it employed contingents of neighboring nomadic tribes. This was eg. the case in the middle of the 1st cent. CE, when Mithridates VIII tried to free himself from the authority of Rome and the Romans enlisted the Aorsans to an alliance against him."

                                            'Es ist nicht auszuschließen, daß sich ein Teil der Sarmaten als besoldete Bundesgenossen in Diensten Roms befand, dem die Verpflichtung zufiel, die Ruhe in den Grenzgebieten wiederherzustellen. Möglicherweise zählte dazu der Teil der Bevölkerung am Kuban', der den "Goldenen Friedhof" hinterlassen hat29.

                                            "It cannot be excluded that a part of the Sarmatians stood in the services of Rome as allied mercenaries on whom rested the obligation to restore order in the border areas. The part of the population on the Kuban' which left behind the 'Golden Cemetery' should possibly be counted as such."

                                            28 Tac. ann. XII, 15.
                                            29 I.I. Guschtschina/I. P. Zaseckaja,
                                            "Zolotoe kladbischtsche" rimskoj epochi v Prikuban'e
                                            (Sankt-Peterburg 1994)


                                            Torsten
                                          • Torsten
                                            ... BTW on those Hilleviones; this has been on my to-do list for some time: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58290
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Oct 19, 2010
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Ah, where were we...
                                              >
                                              > Pliny, Naturalis Historia, Book IV. XIII.:
                                              > http://tinyurl.com/nmmg7j
                                              > '
                                              > 96 Incipit deinde clarior aperiri fama ab gente Inguaeonum, quae est
                                              > prima in Germania. Mons Saevo ibi, inmensus nec Ripaeis iugis minor,
                                              > inmanem ad Cimbrorum usque promunturium efficit sinum, qui Codanus
                                              > vocatur, refertus insulis, quarum clarissima est Scatinavia,
                                              > inconpertae magnitudinis, portionem tantum eius, quod
                                              > notum sit, Hillevionum gente quingentis incolente pagis: quare
                                              > alterum orbem terrarum eam appellant. nec minor est opinione
                                              > Aeningia.
                                              >
                                              > 97 quidam haec habitari ad Vistlam usque fluvium a Sarmatis,
                                              > Venedis, Sciris, Hirris tradunt, sinum Cylipenum vocari et in ostio
                                              > eius insulam Latrim, mox alterum sinum Lagnum, conterminum Cimbris.
                                              > promunturium Cimbrorum excurrens in maria longe paeninsulam efficit,
                                              > quae Tastris appellatur. XXIII inde insulae Romanis armis cognitae.
                                              > earum nobilissimae Burcana, Fabaria nostris dicta a frugis
                                              > multitudine sponte provenientis, item Glaesaria a sucino militiae
                                              > appellata, barbaris Austeravia, praeterque Actania.'
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > "From this point more definite information begins
                                              > to open up, beginning with the race of the Inguaeones,
                                              > the first that we come to in Germany. Here there
                                              > is an enormous mountain, the Saevo, as big as those
                                              > of the Ripaean range, which forms an enormous
                                              > bay reaching to the Cimbrian promontory; it is
                                              > named the Codanian Gulf, and is studded with islands.
                                              > The most famous of these is Scandinavia; its size
                                              > has not been ascertained, and so far as is known,
                                              > only part of it is inhabited, its natives being the
                                              > Hilleviones, who dwell in 500 villages, and call their
                                              > island a second world. Aeningia is thought to be
                                              > equally big. Some authorities report that these
                                              > regions as far as the river Vistula are inhabited by
                                              > the Sarmati, Venedi, Sciri and Hirri, and that there
                                              > is a gulf named Cyhpenus, with the island of Latris
                                              > at its mouth, and then another gulf, that of Lagnus,
                                              > at which is the frontier of the Cimbri. The Cimbrian
                                              > promontory projects a long way into the sea, forming
                                              > a peninsula called Tastris. Then there are twenty-
                                              > three islands known to the armed forces of Rome ;
                                              > the most noteworthy of these are Burcana, called
                                              > by our people Bean Island from the quantity of wild
                                              > beans growing there, and the island which by the
                                              > soldiery is called Glass Island from its amber, but
                                              > by the barbarians Austeravia, and also Actania."
                                              >



                                              BTW on those Hilleviones; this has been on my to-do list for some time:



                                              http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58290
                                              http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58311
                                              http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58325

                                              Note the Hallins:
                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilleviones
                                              'In the 6th century AD, Jordanes wrote that among the many tribes inhabiting the
                                              island of Scandza were the Suehans and the Hallins'

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalundborg
                                              at the end of a fjord
                                              http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolindsund
                                              once a narrow overgrown strait
                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolding
                                              at the end of a fjord

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calates

                                              Aage Houken
                                              HÃ¥ndbog i danske stednavne

                                              'KOLD, adj. glda. kaldær, vn. kaldr.
                                              Bruges i stn. om sur, fugtig jord el. i sammensætninger, hvor der kan sigtes til kold beliggenhed
                                              [KOLD, adj. ODa. kaldær, vn kaldr.
                                              Used in cmpd. of acidic, humid earth, or in cmpd. in which cold location might be referred to.]:
                                              Koldmose, Koldkilde, Koldbæk, Kuldbjerg, Gadbjerg s. Tørrild h.

                                              1. Kasted s. Hasle h. *1215-24 Calztat. Se reg. A: STED 88.
                                              2. Kolding, se reg. F: 25.
                                              Kolind s. Djurs Nørre h. *1416 Kollingh, 1467 Kalingh.
                                              Begge navne går tilbage på et opr. *Kaldung, en afledning til adj. kold; byerne ligger begge i bunden af fjorde. Efter Hald er *Kaldungh opr. navn på det udtørrede Kolindsund. I dial. på stedet er -ing blevet til -ind. Hald VS 44.
                                              [Both names go back to an orig. *Kaldung, a derivative of the adj. kold "cold"; the towns are both situated at the end of fjords]
                                              3. Koldby, Hjerpsted s. Højer h. 1543 Koldebuy.
                                              Skal efter DS V, 314 i forleddet rumme en afledning *kalda, vn. kalda „kold kilde".
                                              4. Kollemorten, Ø. Nykirke s. Nørvang h. *1401-50 Kallæ Martin, 1466
                                              Kollemorten. Efterleddet er tun „gårdsplads, indhegning", mellemleddet mark el. mar „sump". Se DS VIII, 63. Reg. A: TUN 4.
                                              5. Kaldred, Bregninge s. Skippinge h. c. 1370 Kaldruthæ. [near Kalundborg] Efterled rud „rydning" med vokalreduktion til e, vel udtalt [&] i tryksvag position. Det er mul. subst re:th, vn. rétt „indhegning". Se reg. A: RE:TH 3, RØD 63.
                                              ANM. Om navne som Koldkur, Kollekolle, Koldkåd se nedenfor under KÅD.
                                              Om Kolby, Samsø, se reg. A: KARL.
                                              [but Kolby (Kolby KÃ¥s) is the old ferry port of the island]
                                              Da. kås (hypothetically from ON *ka:s, but not found) is (outside of Bornholm) a harbor consisting of two rows of stones set out from a coast.
                                              http://www.naturbornholm.dk/default.asp?m=287
                                              http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A5s
                                              Since it seems to belong with this set of words:
                                              http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/64139
                                              it is reasonable to assume *kal-/*hal- (obviously pre-Germamic) does too.
                                              ...
                                              Kalveboderne,
                                              Jens Sørensens søkort 1697 Kallebo Gat,
                                              Meiers kort 1656 Kalleboe
                                              som navn på en bebyggelse på Amagers sydkyst inden for 5 småøer.
                                              [as name of a settlement on the south coast of Amager within 5 small islands]
                                              ...
                                              Kalvø, flere steder, ofte utvivlsomt øer hvor kalve har gået til græsning. Ingen af de danske Kalvø'er ligger sammen med en større ø.
                                              [Kalø, several places, often without doubt islands where calves have been taken for grazing. None of the Danish Kalvø's are situated near a larger island.]
                                              Kalø, Bregnet s. Ø. Lisbjerg h. er kendt også som hgd. *1320 Kalløff, 1340 Caluø.'
                                              http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kal%C3%B8
                                              http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kal%C3%B8_Slotsruin

                                              Kalundborg (with Kaldred) - Kolby - Kalø is the old direct route between Sjælland and Jutland (now ending instead in Århus slightly to the south of Kalø Vig).

                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halland

                                              de Vries:
                                              'halr m. 'mann'
                                              (< germ. * haliþ, mit Schwund dental im Auslaut), aschw. hälith. -
                                              Ob wgerm. Halamardus 'Göttername in einer weihe-inschrift' hierher gehört, wie v. Grienberger Zfda 35, 1891 vermutet,
                                              ist recht unsicher; vgl.
                                              ae. hæle, hæleð 'mann, held', as. helið, ahd. helid 'held'. -
                                              gr. kéllo: 'treibe', kélomai 'treibe an',
                                              lat. celer 'rasch',
                                              ai. kaláyati 'treibt'. -
                                              vgl. halda und ho,lðr.
                                              Nach IEW 524 eher zu ai. kalya 'gesund, rüstig', gr. kállos 'Schönheit'. -
                                              Nicht als 'mann aus Halland' zu deuten, wie F. Jónsson, Sprogforh. 307 erwägt (also wie virðar, ýtar). Ein zweites wort halr dürfte run. norw. hali akk. sg. (Wetzstein von Ström 7. Jht), sein, das kaum so früh aus *haliþ gekürzt sein kann. Deshalb nimmt Kiil ANF 68, 1953, 89-95 ein wort *hali- an, verwandt mit hel, und das also 'toter, totgeweihter' bedeuten soll. An mehreren stellen in der an. lit. hat das wort halr eine pejorative bedeutung.'

                                              From *Kal-et- "kal- inhabitant"? The double-valued connotation might indicate an old ethnic conflict.

                                              UEW:
                                              'kala 'Fisch' U
                                              Finn. kala 'Fisch';
                                              est. kala |

                                              lapp.
                                              N guolle -l-,
                                              L kuolle:,
                                              K (328) T ki:,lle,
                                              Kld. ku~,ll,
                                              Not. kuo,ll |

                                              mord E M kal |

                                              tscher. KB U B kol |

                                              ostj. (OL 281) V kul, DN xut´, O xul (Vj. ńär&k kul usw. 'roher Fisch' > syrj. I Ob ńarxul) |

                                              wog. (WV 115) TJ ko:l, KU So. xu:l, P kul |

                                              ung. hal ||

                                              sam.
                                              jur. (165) O xa:l´e, Nj. ka:r´e;
                                              jen. Ch. kaðe, (Donn.-Joki: ISFOu. 58/1: 13) Ch. kare, K kare B kare;
                                              twg. kole, (Donn.-Joki: a.a.O. 16) kuale, kuolle;
                                              selk. (Donn. Mskr.) TaM kel, qel, Ty. kel, (MSFOu. 49: 32) qeli, Ke. k,uel,
                                              (Leht.: MSFOu. 122: 320) Tur.qe:li: kam. kola;
                                              koib.(Klapr., mitg.Donn.: MSFOu. (64, 32, 41) kola;
                                              mot. (ebd.) kele;
                                              karag. (Pall., mitg. Donn.: MSFOu. 64: 17) kalè;
                                              taig. (Klapr., mitg. Donn.: MSFOu. 64: 41) kallà.

                                              Vgl. ? alt.:
                                              ma.-tung. *k´olo ~ *k´olto:
                                              tung. ollo, oldo, olro, lam. olra 'Fisch',
                                              orok. xolto,
                                              ude oloxo,
                                              gold. xolto(n) 'gekochter Fisch';
                                              ieur.: lat. squalus 'ein größerer Meerfisch' (<*(s)qalo).


                                              kalæ 1 Netz' U
                                              Finn. (T. I. Itk.: JSFOu. 32/3: 66)
                                              kalin (Gen. kalimen) 'rectis quaedam species ad sagenam pertinens'
                                              (> lapp. Ko. Not. ka:l,em 'das zweite Teilnetz des Zugnetzes vom Netzsacke aus gerechnet');
                                              est. kale 'Schleppbeutelnetz' |

                                              syrj.
                                              S kulem 'ugf. 10-15 Klafter langes Netz mit Flößen und Netzsenkern',
                                              P kuve:m 'Beutelnetz, Fischreuse (?)' |

                                              ostj. (OL 88) V kal&w, DN xot&p, O xal&p 'Netz' |

                                              wog. (Kann. Mskr.) KU xul&p, P ku:l&p, So. xu:l&p 'verkko; Netz' |

                                              ung. háló 'Netz; Fischergarn; Schlinge' ||

                                              sam.
                                              jen. Ch. kuoðese?, B kuorese?.

                                              Finn. und syrj. m, das obugrische p, und ung. ó (< *p oder *m) sind denom. Nominalsuffixe.


                                              kälä- 'waten' FU
                                              ? Finn. kahlaa-, kaalaa- 'waten' (< ? lapp.);
                                              ? est. (Eesti-venesõnaraamat 1955) kahla- 'bresti v vode, perexoditI' (< ? finn.) |
                                              lapp.
                                              N galle-, -a:l- 'id., (tr.) wade in',
                                              L ka:lle:- 'waten', K (321) T Kld. Not. ka:,lle- |

                                              mord. E. kel´e-, M käl´e- |

                                              tscher. KB kelä-, U B kela-|

                                              wotj.
                                              S kol- 'ins Wasser treten',
                                              (Wichm., mitg. Uot.: 65: 190) G kolî- 'waten' |

                                              syrj. S kel-, PO kó:l- |

                                              ostj. (OL 213) V kül-, DN kit-, O kil- 'aufsteigen; an Land gehen, (465) aufstehen' |

                                              wog. (Kann.: FUF 14:35, 73)
                                              TJ koäl-, KU koöl-, So. koa:l- 'aufstehen; landen', (Kann.-Liim.: MSFOu. 101: 376,134: 94,251)
                                              P ka:l- ~ koal-, kal- 'aufstehen, fahren, kommen' |

                                              ung.
                                              kel- 'aufstehen; sich erheben; aufgehen (Sonne); keimen, sprießen',
                                              átkel- 'hinüberfahren; (einen Fluß) durchschreiten',
                                              kelet 'Ost; (altung.) Furt, Obergang',
                                              kelö´ 'átjáró (a kís ereken); Furt über die kleine Bäche)'.

                                              Vgl. juk. kel-, kolu 'come, go'; alt.: türk. kel- 'come'.
                                              Die Zugehörigkeit des. finn. Wortes ist wegen ah, aa der ersten Silbe unsicher.
                                              In den Ug. Sprachen kann eine Bedeutungsentwicklung
                                              'waten' -> 'landen' -> 'aufsteigen, aufstehen'
                                              eingetreten sein.
                                              Selk. q&l- '(zu Fuß) gehen' (Györke: MNy. 37: 304) gehört wegen der Velarität seines Vokals nicht hierher.

                                              kälæ 1 '(geronnenes) Blut' U

                                              ? lapp. N gielo, gi:llum- ~ gil'lu- ~ gi:lum-, ~ gi:lum 'clot of coagulated blood', L kielo:v ?|

                                              ostj. (462) Ni. kat&, Kaz. kali 'Blut; (selt.) Beerensaft (rot)' |

                                              wog. (WV 41) KU ke:l&p, VN So. ke:lp 'Blut; rot'] ||

                                              ? sam. jur. (436) OP Nj. śelw 'hart getrocknetes Blut'
                                              (> syrj.
                                              I śelja 'zapeks^ijsja (o krovi)',
                                              I śelmi-, śeljaś- 'zapekatIsja, zapečIsja (o krovi)',
                                              ostj. O śel&w 'geronnene Blutkugel').

                                              Lapp. o, m, ostj. &, wog. p und sam. jur. w sind ableitungssuffixe.
                                              Wegen des anlautenden ś ist es unsicher, ob das jur. Wort hierher gehört; als Fortsetzung von U *k würde man s erwarten.
                                              Ostj. (OL 61)
                                              Trj. kålp&n, wåj&G 'Opfertier (in den Gebetsprüchen)' (wåj&G 'Tier'),
                                              DN xat&p 'Blut' (Lehtisalo: MSFOu. 58: 134 mit ?)
                                              kann wegen des velaren Vokalismus nicht hierher gestellt werden.

                                              kälæ 2 '(versumpfter) See, Bucht' FU, ? U

                                              Wotj.
                                              S kalem 'Busen, Bucht im Flusse',
                                              (Wied.) kalim 'Pfütze, Lache' |

                                              syrj.
                                              Lu. Peč. Ud. VU ti-kela Ortsname (an diesem Orte gibt es nur einen See) (Lu.),
                                              'kleiner Waldsee (Peč.),
                                              Ort mit vielen kleinen Teichen nahe beieinander (Ud.),
                                              kleine Bucht im See (VU)' (ti 'der See') |

                                              ostj. (397)
                                              Vj. köl,&G: jiGi töj k. 'kleines baumloses Moor in der Quellgegend eines Flusses od. bei einem Flußarm',
                                              DN kal& 'gangbares, ziemlich festes Moor zwischen harten Bodenstrecken, Niederung',
                                              Kaz. kal, 'baumloses, nasses Moor, Sumpf, im Winter stellenweise nicht
                                              zugefroren' |

                                              wog. (WV 138)
                                              KU ke:li (?>ostj. Kam. kel& 'nicht zugefroren (Stelle)'),
                                              P ke:l&G, So. ke:liG 'Morast'
                                              (> ostj. s^erk. kel& 'čistoe boloto bez derevIev') ||

                                              ? sam. selk. kêl´, kuel´ 'Seebusen, Flußbusen', (Donn. Mskr.) Ty. köl
                                              'Flußbusen'.

                                              Wotj. m, syrj. a und ostj., wog. G sind ableitungssuffixe. Wegen des anlautenden k ist es unsicher, ob das selk. Wort hierher gehört.
                                              Selk. Ta. kaalds^ 'schmale, niedrige, nasse Tundra mit Wald auf beiden Seiten' (Gombocz: NyK 32: 193) gehört aus lautlichen Gründen nicht hierher.


                                              kältä- 'fischen (mit dem Zugnetz)' FP

                                              Tscher. (Beke: MSFOu. 76:55) *kelð&- 'Fische fangen',
                                              (MRS) kelðe 'nevod',
                                              B kelðe 'eine Art großen Netzes aus Leinwand für zwei Fischer' |

                                              wotj.
                                              S K kalt-, (Wichm.: MSFOu. 36:73)
                                              G kaltî.- 'mit dem Zugnetz fischen',
                                              S K kalton 'Zugnetz' |

                                              syrj.
                                              S Lu. kelt-, V kevt- 'mit dem Zugnetz fischen (S V), aus der Suppe die besten Bissen herausfischen (Lu.),
                                              S keltin 'kleines Zugnetz'.

                                              Tscher. e (<*ek) in kelðe ist ein Ableitungssuffix.
                                              Möglicherweise ist FP *kältä- eine kausative Ableitung von FU *kälä- 'waten' in FP Zeit.
                                              Die Zusammenstellung der perm. Wörter mit lapp. go:,l´de- 'rummage about...' usw. ist nicht akzeptabel.
                                              Siehe auch *kulta- 'fischen (? mit dem Zugnetz, Treibnetz)' FU, ? U.

                                              kulta- 'fischen (? mit dem Zugnetz, Treibnetz)' FU, ? U
                                              lapp.
                                              N go,l´de- -ld-
                                              'rummage about,
                                              dabble in something,
                                              ladle or take food out of the cooking-pot for the animals' food;
                                              deplenish a river of its fish',
                                              L kålte:- 'einen Gegenstand aus einer Flüssigkeit (heraus)schöpfen,
                                              herausnehmen',
                                              N go,ldâ l´dag- 'linked drift-nets',
                                              L kåltå 'ein Zugnetz'
                                              (> finn. dial. kulta-, kuulta- 'fånga fisk under lektiden; Fische fangen während der Laichzeit; gräva i; graben, wühlen;
                                              (SKES) lippoa (sukoja koskesta);
                                              Schnäpel aus der Stromschnelle fangen (keschern)',
                                              kulle (Gen. kultern) 'eine Art Lachsnetz, Treibnetz',
                                              kar. kuulta-, kuullatta- 'kuultaa, kalastaa kutuaikana; fischen während der Laichzeit') |

                                              ostj. (378)
                                              Trj. kol- 'Fische auf eine besondere Weise fangen',
                                              Kaz. xo,lt- 'mit einer schwimmenden Reuse fischen',
                                              Vj. kolt&: k. joG&lpon 'eine Art Treibnetz' (joG&lpon 'beutelartiges
                                              Trampnetz'),
                                              Kam. xutt& : x. pun 'Treibnetz',
                                              O xolti: x. pon 'schwimmende Reuse, sackartiges Treibnetz' (pun, pon 'Reuse') |

                                              wog. (VNGy. 1: 265,264)
                                              LM khult-: lunt khulti 'a lúd orrával keres, kutat; die Gans sucht mit ihrem Schnabel',
                                              LO xult- 'kalydanom promys^ljatI',
                                              xultne pon 'kalydan' (pon keceháló; Garnnetz') ||

                                              ?? sam.
                                              selk. (Erd.) Ta. qoltæi- 'schöpfen'.

                                              Selk. æi ist ein Ableitungssuffix.
                                              Im Gegensatz zu mehreren Forschern (s. Literatur) gehört das finn. Wort nicht in den Urwortschatz der finn. Sprache.
                                              Nach Posti (KSVk. 1978: 61) stammt das finn. kuulta-, kulta- aus dem Wort kuule- 'hören'.
                                              Die Bedeutung 'Fische fangen' könnte man auf Grund der dialektalen Bedeutung 'fühlen, tasten' des finn. Verbs kuule- gut erklären.
                                              In der ostj. Trj. Form ist das t aus dem Stamm verschwunden.
                                              Das selk. Wort gehört nur dann hierher, wenn seine ursprüngliche Bedeutung 'fischen' war.
                                              Wotj. kalt- und syrj. kelt- 'mit dem Zugnetz fischen' könnten zwar auf Grund des sporadischen Lautwandels FU *u > urpermisches *i > *o (> wotj. a, syrj. e) als die Entsprechungen des lapp. go,l´de- erklärt werden, sie gehören aber sowohl lautlich wie auch semantisch eher in einen anderen etymologischen Zusammenhang
                                              (s. unter *kältä- 'fischen (mit dem Zugnetz)' FP.

                                              Collinder
                                              'fi kalin ~ kalime- one section (net) of a dragnet;
                                              est kale a kind of bag-shaped drift-net |

                                              zr kulem net, (weir-)basket |

                                              vg kulp net |

                                              os kalew, S hot&p |

                                              hu háló ||

                                              ynH kuoðese net; kuoðia-, B kuorea- to fish with a net.


                                              fi kalma
                                              odour of a corpse;
                                              spirit holding sway over a burial-ground;
                                              ruler over the grave or graves, death;
                                              ulcer, cancer; nether-world;
                                              corpse; pallid as a corpse |

                                              lp guolmâs ~ guol´bmâsâ- pale, pallid, wan |

                                              md kalmo grave, tomb; kalma- bury ||

                                              yr hal´mer corpse (deriv.) |

                                              ynH kameðo, B kamero |

                                              km kolmu spirit (of the departed).


                                              vty kalym pool, puddle (of stagnant water); inlet or bay in a river (derivative)
                                              |

                                              zr kõla, kola: ty-k. small inlet of a lake; small forest-lake (ty lake) |

                                              vg keelyg marsh, bog |

                                              os köł&g (open ö) a kind of marsh ||

                                              sk keel´, kuel´ inlet, bay of lake or river.'


                                              Vasmer
                                              'kal G. -a 'Kot, Unrat',
                                              ukr. kał 'Kot, Schlamm, Schmutz',
                                              abg. kalU pe:lós (Supr., Euch. Sin.),
                                              bulg. kalU´t,
                                              skr. k`ào G. kâla,
                                              čakav. kál, G. kála,
                                              sloven. kâł,
                                              čech. slk. kal 'trübes Wasser, Sehlamm, Sumpf, Kot',
                                              poln. kał 'Kot, Lache, Sumpf, Schmutz'. ||

                                              Urverw.: aind. ka:las 'blauschwarz', kalan,´kam 'Fleck, Makel',
                                              griech. ke:l`as ´e:méra 'schwarzer Tag', ke:l`as a`íks 'Ziege mit Fleck',
                                              lat. ca:lidus 'mit einer Blässe auf der Stirn',
                                              ca:li:go: 'Nebel',
                                              ...

                                              Andererseits vergleicht man das
                                              slav. *kalU
                                              mit
                                              griech. pe:lós,
                                              dor. pa:lós 'Lehm'
                                              (Meillet MSL. 13,291, Et. 418, Slavia 3,676ff.),
                                              doch ist letzteres von
                                              palkós: pe:lós Hesych
                                              und von
                                              lit. pélke. 'Bruch'
                                              kaum zu trennen, s. W. Schulze a. a. O., Persson 943, Walde-Hofmann 1,139; 2,239, gegen Berneker EW. 1,476 und Preobr. 1,287 ff.'



                                              Hans Kuhn:
                                              Vor- und frühgermanische Ortsnamen in Norddeutschland und in den Niederlanden
                                              'Ein drittes vorgermanisches Suffix, an dem unser Nordwesten Anteil hat, ist -andr-. Es ist am bekanntesten wohl aus Homer. Er nennt dort in Kleinasien die Flüsse Maiandros und Skamandros und die Troerin Kassandra. In der Troas lag außerdem ein Antandros, Phrygien hatte den Fluß Alandros. Das Griechische hatte auch Lehnwörter mit diesem Suffix (darunter unser Salamander), wohl auch aus diesem Osten. Die Vorherrschaft des a ist selten so groß wie in dieser Gruppe. Außerhalb ihres Raumes gibt es kleinere Nester mit solchen Namen in den Ländern
                                              am westlichen Mittelmeer und dann eine größere Gruppe in Westdeutschland und Belgien (vgl. Bach, D. Namenkunde 2, 1, 215 f.). Am häufigsten scheinen sie da im Gebiet von Mittelrhein und Maas. Schon von Plinius ist hier, im östlichen Belgien, der Stammesname Texuandri bezeugt. Die Gruppe reicht jedoch mit 8 bis 12 Namen über den Rhein in unser Untersuchungsgebiet. Zuerst die sicheren Fälle:
                                              Asendere, alte Gerichtsstätte bei Tungerloh, w. Coesfeld,
                                              Callendoorn (oder Collendoorn), bei Hardenbergh, Overijssel, 1381 Calendoren, Kaldern, an der Lahn nw. Marburg, alt Calantra Calderen; diese beiden Namen scheinen mit gr. kálandra kálandros „Lerche" verwandt zu sein,
                                              Geseldorn, zu Sendenhorst, sö. Münster, alt Gesondron Gisenderne,
                                              Vragender, zu Lichtenvoorde, w. Winterswijk, Gelderland, alt Vragender und auch Vrageren,
                                              IJsendoorn, onö. Tiel, Betuwe, alt Isandra Isendra,
                                              Zevender (Zeventer), sw. Utrecht, alt Zevendre Suvendere Zevender.

                                              Hierzu kommen einige zweifelhafte Fälle:
                                              Attendorn, im Sauerland, alt Attandarra Attindarra Attindere u. a., nach Dittmaier (Siedlungsnamen und Siedlungsgesch. d. Bergischen Landes, 50) gebildet aus einem Personennamen und darra „Darre", so wie Odenthal (s. unten) und Lausdorn, bei Clerf, Luxemburg (alt Lutteres- und Liutardesdarra). Da jedoch att- zu den weitverstreuten alten Namenstämmen (mit anlauts-a) gehört (Attakon Attalia Attika usw., dazu in der Nähe ein wüstes Attepe), die Stadt auch in einer altbesiedelten Kalkmulde liegt - nahe Ennest -, so glaube ich eher an ein *Attandra.

                                              Deventer, Overijssel, alt Daventre u. a.; hier scheint das Suffix unsere Lautverschiebung durchgemacht zu haben. Es gibt jedoch auch Daventry in England (Northamptonshire), dazu Dentern, zu Schwitten, n. Menden, um 1230 Deventer, alle mit demselben Lautstand. Vielleicht ist der Name (in der germanisierten Form) vom niederländischen Deventer ausgegangen.
                                              Ferndorf, Bach und Dorf n. Siegen, alt Berentraph Ferentreph.
                                              Hellendoorn, w. Almeloe, Overijssel, alt Hellendoren Helendoren u. a.; verwandt mit Kaldern und Callendoorn, aber mit H- statt K-, oder aber „Höllentore", wie wahrscheinlich die Hellendoren, die Jellinghaus diesem Namen gleichsetzt.
                                              Kiliandr, erwähnt von einem Isländer um 1150, zwischen Paderborn und Mainz.
                                              Odenthal, nö. Köln, alt Vdindar Udendare -darre, nach Dittmaier ein Kompositum (vgl. zu Attendorn).
                                              Öhndorf, Bach, zur Sieg bei Betzdorf, mdal. Ürndoff, von Dittmaier (Das apa-Problem 49) aus *Urindr-apa erklärt.
                                              Varentrappe, Bach und Ort, nahe Hattingen, 837 Farnthrapa; nach Dittmaier (a. a. O.) aus *Farandr-apa.
                                              Waroldern, s. Arolsen, 1106 Waroldoron, Weselderen, früher Teil von Dolberg, onö. Hamm, 1269 Wiselderen, 1293 Wisel-dorle; da *Gesandra zu Geseldorn geworden ist, können Waroldern und *Weselderen wohl auf *Warandra und *Wisandra zurückgehn; sie würden dann zu weitbekannten Flußnamenstämmen gehören.'


                                              Is -inde/-inge = -iþi = -isь ?

                                              Just south of Kalisz is Silesia. Pretty wet that too, it seems:

                                              Zbigniew Gołąb
                                              The Origin of the Slavs, a Linguist's view
                                              pp. 302-304
                                              'It should, however, be noted that we cannot precisely demarcate the western boundaries of that late Proto-Slavic habitat; e.g., the regions of Western Pomerania and Lower Silesia seem to be zones of close Slavic-Germanic contacts, of mixed colonization. The fact that even before the great migration of peoples the most important Germanic tribes in the Odra basin, the Burgundians and the Vandals, left that region, after which the Slavic population instantly reemerged, suggests that the following interpretation is most plausible: the Teutons seem to have dwelt among the basic Slavic population as transient warrior groups, most probably in some strongholds (compare the present-day Israeli settlements on the west bank of the Jordan River). Once they had abandoned them (perhaps under the pressure of the local Slavic population), the Slavic masses, no longer inhibited, moved further west and occupied the whole basin of the Odra River and poured into the Łaba basin (6th-7th cents. A.D.). These early historical times do not belong to the subject of this book. Even so, I would like to emphasize here the origins of the toponym Silesia, i.e., Slavic *SьlęžIsko (cf. Pol. Śląsk, OPol. Śląsko). This adjectival derivative is based upon the hydronym *Sьlęza, Pol. Ślęża and the oronym *Sьlęža // Sьlęžь, Pol. Ślęża (góra), etc.

                                              The case of the hydronym and oronym Ślęża and its derivatives Śląsk(o), Ślężanie is not only very important, but also very revealing of a certain nationalistic bias which, unfortunately, has not been rare in European onomastics. The founder of Slavic antiquities, P. S^afarik, accepted the hypothesis proposed by I. Imsieg in 1830 of an etymological connection between these names and the Germanic ethnicon Silíggai (Ptolemy), Silingi (Hypatius, 5th cent. A.D.). This view has been maintained by the majority of leading scholars (among others L. Niederle, F. Miklosich, A. Bruckner, J. Rozwadowski; see S. Rospond, Słownik starożytności słowiańskich, 1975, V, pp. 566-67). Historical evidence about the Vandalian Silingi (Germanic Silingo:z) and linguistic (phonemic and derivational) analysis of these Slavic names strongly supported the hypothesis.

                                              As to the location of this tribe, the Silingi dwelt first in present-day Upper Lusatia (the Upper Spree basin) and then, after the Markomannian Wars, they moved to Lower Silesia (3rd cent. A.D.). It is probable that their remnants still remained in Silesia in the fifth cent. A.D. and were subsequently absorbed by the Slavs (see H. Łowmiański, Słownik starożytności słowiańskich, 1975, V, pp. 180-81). This historical background is sufficient for an unbiased linguist, who sees the not only a regular but even quite banal treatment of Germanic lexical material in the Slavic development *Silingaz (sing.) > *Sьlęz,ь (cf. Germanic *kuningaz > kъnęz,ь, etc.), then in the derivation of a possssive adjective *sьlęz,ь > *sьlęžь/a/e (cf. kъnęz,ь > kъnęžь/a/e, etc.). Now, it would be quite understandable that the Slavs, who surrounded the Silingian enclave, called the river and the mountain located in the center of that enclave the 'Silingian river' and 'Silingian mountain', in Proto-Slavic *Sьlęža (rěka)39, *Sьlęža (gora) or *Sьlęžь *vьrxъ). Compare the similar old possessive toponym Niemcza (*Němьča) 'German (settlement)' also located in Silesia, just south of Mount Ślęża ~ Sobótka. It is revealing to note that the same oronym has also been attested in Lower Lusatia: Zlensegor (1225), Slensegor (1227), i.e., *Sьlęža Gora, Pol. Ślęża Góra (cf. Rospond, loc. cit.), which would prove the older location of the Silingi. This convincing etymology, which cannot be attacked either on linguistic or historical grounds, has been strongly opposed by M. Rudnicki and S. Rospond on rather weak grounds. Since the Rudnicki-Rospond hypothesis shows some serious linguistic gaps, I will devote some remarks to a critique of it.

                                              The whole idea of these authors (see M. Rudnicki, Slavia Occidentalis 8: 534-36, 1929, and 12: 398-402, 1933, and S. Rospond, Słownik starożytności słowiańskich V, 1975, p. 564 s.v. Ślęża and pp. 566-67 s.v. Slężanie) is connected with the hypothesis of the historian W. Semkowicz, who in his article Historyczno-geograficzne podstawy Śląska (the first chapter of the book Historia Śląska, ed. St. Kutrzeba, PAU, Cracow, 1933) proposed a Slavic (Polish) etymology for these toponyms. Namely, he attempted to show that Ślęża, Ślęż can be derived from the root *slęg- contained in
                                              Pol. dial. (Wielkopolska and Małopolska) slęgnąć 'soak, get wet',
                                              ślęganina 'rainy season, humidity',
                                              ślągwa // śląkwa 'humid, foggy air; foul weather; sleet',
                                              prześlągły 'soaked through' (W. Semkowicz, loc. cit., 12).
                                              The derivatives *slęg-jь/ja, i.e., Ślęż, Ślęża, referring to the mountain and the river respectively, would simply mean 'foggy and humid mountain', and 'river flowing across swampy ground', which actually has justification in the climate and physiography of the region. Here I would like to note that Semkowicz's reasoning is theoretically correct at first glance; even his reconstruction of the primary form of the toponyms with -ž- from -gj- is better than Rospond's speculation about the forms *ślędza > ślęza, etc., allegedly from *slęga in connection with the third palatalization of velars in Proto-Slavic. But if we scrutinize the dialectal Polish forms in the context of comparative Slavic material, then the "nativist" etymology loses its ground: the comparative Slavic material, supported by IE correspondences, shows that the primary form of the root, the alleged *slęg- (Pol. dial. ślęg-, etc.) was slęk-, i.e., with a final voiceless k (cf. Russ. sljakot' f., dial, sljača 'rare mud from rain and snow', S-C sl`èka 'tide'; here also belong the regular Polish forms with k: śląknąć 'get wet', śląkwa 'wet weather', Vasmer III: 682). The primary form *slęk- has good support from comparative IE material: e.g., Lith. sliñkti, slenkù 'schleichen (von der Schlange)', Latv. slìkt 'sich senken, im Wasser untergehen', etc.: only in Germanic is there an IE variant in -g: e.g., OE slincan 'kriechen', etc. (for details see Pokorny, 961, s.v. slenk-, sleng- 'winden, drehen; sich schlingen, kriechen'). Of course, the semantic development 'creep' > 'get wet', etc., is complicated, but if we realize that as an intermediary state we could have 'to flow slowly' or something similar, the change becomes possible. In any case the dialectal Polish forms with -g- seem to be secondary, later: they probably represent an expressive voicing of primary voiceless consonants, which takes place in certain words, e.g., wielki > wielgi,
                                              glista > glizda, etc. So, the toponyms Ślęża, Ślęż (or rather Śląż in modernized Polish form) cannot be derived from *Slęg-ja, *Slęg-jь, since the Proto-Slavic form of the root (i.e., dial. Pol. ślęg-ną-ć, etc.) was *slęk-. The old derivatives in -ja, -jь of this root would sound like *Slęča, *Slęčь - which, of course, do not exist. In view of all these facts, we must return to the old etymology of Ślęża, etc., which presupposes *Sьlęža, etc., a possessive derivative from the ethnicon *Sьlęz,i, which was borrowed from the Germanic *Silingo:z (Ptolemy's Silíggai, Hypatius' Silingi). I will end my critique here, although it could be expanded, especially to take in some obvious mistakes in M. Rudnicki's linguistic reasoning (for example, his statement that "obce *Siling- z sufiksem -akъ dałoby słów. *Sьlęg-akъ...", which is wrong because it does not take into consideration the third palatalization of velars: from *Siling-akъ we would regularly obtain Sьlęz,akъ). Such details would not add anything substantial to the discussion. It seemed necessary to me to raise the subject because it shows how careful we must be in etymological analysis and that attempts to prove the native etymology of a toponym at any price may divert us from linguistically and historically well-justified explanations to vague speculations.'

                                              On *slaNg- etc, cf.
                                              http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/61680
                                              It seems:
                                              1) we are dealing with a loan into Germanic
                                              2) the root alternates -g-/-k- in Germanic too.
                                              3) the root alternates -e-/-a- too
                                              cf. Da. slask, sjask "wet mess", Eng. slush

                                              *kald-ward- > Hal-bard-, Hað-bard-?


                                              Latvian kakls, Livonian kaggõl, Estonian kael, Gmc. xals- "neck"

                                              http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/48805

                                              But
                                              A North Caucasian Etymological Dictionary
                                              '*qHwołwV neck, collar
                                              Av.-And. *qwilu (~xw-); Darg. *qIwab; Lezg. *xIaw.|
                                              Av.-And. *qwilu (~xw~) back of the head: Tind. xolu.
                                              Isolated in Tind., but with probable external parallels. |
                                              Darg. *qIwab 1 neck 2 collar Ak. qaIb 1; Chir. qIwab 2.
                                              Cf. also Ur., Tsud. qIwab, Kub. qIab 'neck' etc.
                                              Lezg. *xIaw collar: Lezg. xew, Tab. xIaw; Ag. *X'aw; Rut. xIïw; Tsakh. xIow (Mishl.).
                                              Cf. also Tab. Düb. xIaw, Lezg Khl. xIäw, Ag. Bursh., Burk. X'aw, Tp. h/aw, Obl. base *xIowa- (cf. Lezg. xiwe-, Rut. xIïwï- - whence also the direct base -xIïw, Tsakh. xIowa-). 3d class in Rut. and Tsakh.
                                              See Khaidakov 1973, 90.
                                              Reconstructed for the EC level. Corresspondences are regular.'


                                              More ethnics/geography interesting stuff on Kalisz:
                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalyzians
                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khvalisy
                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khvalynsk
                                              Koldouoi, Quadi
                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadi

                                              http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/16813

                                              http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65197

                                              Vasmer:
                                              холу´й I. 'Diener, Knecht, Kriecher, gemeine Sklavenseele'. Daraus baltd. chaluj dass. (Kiparsky Baltend. 150). Verwandt mit наха´л 'Frechling' (s. d.) u. подхалп´м, auch mit па´холок (s. d.), s. Preobr. 1, 595, Gorjajev EW. 394, Dop. 1, 51. Andere vergleichen auch noch холо´п, холосто´й, s. Sobolevskij ŽMNPr. 1886, Sept., S. 146, Lehr-Spławiński JP. 24, 44. Kühne Vermutungen bei Iljinskij IORJ. 20, 4, 156.

                                              холу´й II., auch
                                              хо´луйнук 'Fischzaun', Arch.,
                                              халу´й 'unter dem Wasser im Fluß ragender Stein', Arch. (Podv.).
                                              Nach Kalima 237 ff. aus
                                              finn. kolu 'aus Pfählen und Reisern hergestellter Fischzaun, Steinhaufen'.
                                              Die Bed. 'Stein unter Wasser' gehört eher zu холу´й I.
                                              Vgl. па´cынок als 'Klippe unter Wasser'.

                                              хо´луй III. 'auf Wiesen vom Hochwasser zurückbleibenden Schlamm, Schwemmholz', Vjatka, Perm (D.), Kolyma (Bogor.), Olon. (Kulik.).
                                              Nach Kalima 236 ff. aus
                                              finn. kаlu, estn. kаlu 'Gerümpel'
                                              zu erklären. Anders Brückner KZ. 51, 237, der unwahrscheinlich an
                                              abulg. chalo,ga 'Zaun',
                                              skr. hàluga, 'Unkraut, dichter Wald',
                                              sloven. halóga 'Gestrüpp, Reisig'
                                              anknüpfen will. Wiederum abweichend Petersson IF. 43, 77, der
                                              хале´па 'feuchtes Schneewetter',
                                              aind. cikhallas 'Sumpf',
                                              osset. χului 'Feuchtigkeit'
                                              vergleicht (dagegen Mayrhofer Aind. Wb. 386). Alles sehr fragwürdig. Aus d. Russ. entlehnt ist
                                              syrjan. kelui 'Gerümpel' (Wichmann-Uotila 96).
                                              ...

                                              холо´п, -а 'Leibeigener, Knecht',
                                              холопа´й 'Knecht, knechtischer Mensch',
                                              ukr. chołóp 'Leibeigener, Bauer',
                                              wruss. cholóp,
                                              aruss. cholopъ, N. pl. -i, G. pl. -ej (Mosk. Urk. 16.-17. Jhdt., s. Sobolevskij Lekcii 198),
                                              r.-ksl. chlapъ 'Diener, Knecht, Sklave',
                                              abulg. chlapъ δου~λος, ο`ικέτης (Supr.),
                                              bulg. chlápe n., chlapák 'Knabe',
                                              skr. hl`àp G. hl`àpa u. hlâp,
                                              sloven. hlâp 'Tölpel',
                                              čech. slk. chlap 'Kerl, Bauer, Mann',
                                              poln. chłop,
                                              osorb. khłop, khłopc 'Bursche',
                                              nsorb. kłopc. ||

                                              Ursl. bzw. aruss. *cholpъ wurde früh entlehnt in
                                              lett. kalps 'Knecht, Arbeiter', s. M.-Endz. 2, 144.
                                              Die bisherigen Deutungen sind alle unsicher: Man verglich
                                              got. halbs 'halb', eigentl. 'unpaar, dem das Gegenstück fehlt' (Pedersen KZ. 38, 373ff.) oder 'kastrierter Knecht' (Oštir Archiv 36, 444, Sobolovskij RFV. 71,444), wobei Verwandtschaft mit *cholkъ u. *cholstь angenommen wurde (dagegen Endzelin SIBEt. 124). Sonst wurde expressive Umgestaltung u. Urverwandtschaft vermutet mit
                                              lit. šel~pti, šelpiù 'unterstützen, helfen',
                                              pašalpà 'Hilfe'
                                              (Brückner KZ. 51, 235. Pogodin RFV. 32, 270ff., IFAnz. 5, 260)
                                              bezw. mit
                                              got. hilpan 'helfen'
                                              (Korsch Potanin-Festschr. 537, dagegen Endzelin c. 1. 42).
                                              Abzulehnen ist der Vergleich mit
                                              aind. jálpati 'halbverständlich reden, murren',
                                              jālmás 'verworfener Mensch, Schurke', auch 'gemein' (Machek Slavia 16, 195). Man verglich auch
                                              lit. sìlpti, sìlpstu 'schwach werden',
                                              sil~pnas 'schwach, kraftlos'
                                              (Matzenauer LF. 7, 220, dagegen Berneker EW. 1, 394), ferner
                                              nhd. Schalk (Brückner EW. 180) oder
                                              griech. σκόλοψ 'spitzer Pfahl' (Loewenthal Archiv 37, 386). Zweifelhaft ist auch die Annahme einer Entlehnung aus
                                              niederrhein. halfe 'Halbbauer'
                                              (J. Schmidt Vok. 2, 139ff., dagegen Berneker c. 1., Brückner KZ. 48, 194).
                                              Unsicher ist Verwandtschaft mit па´холок u. холить (s. d.),
                                              vgl. Sobolevskij c. l., Mladenov 669, Lehr-Spławiński JP. 24, 43.
                                              Siehe хлап.



                                              Obviously too early for conclusion. But let the people judge.



                                              Torsten
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