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eH- themes, 5th Declination Latin, IE cognates?

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  • Joao S. Lopes
    Is the Latin 5th and 3th declinations, respectively exemplified by re:s/rei: (fide:s/fidei:) and nube:s/nubis, related to any non-Latin IE equivalent? Latin
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 20, 2009
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      Is the Latin 5th and 3th declinations, respectively exemplified by re:s/rei: (fide:s/fidei:) and nube:s/nubis, related to any non-Latin IE equivalent? Latin cane:s "dog" seems to be an augmented form of *can (oddly linked to *k^won-), vulpe:s "fox" seems suspiciously linked to Greek alope:x (*lo:pe:-) (cognates in Armenian, Celtic, Indo-Iranian). How could we explain rabies, scabies, materies, facies, planities, species, etc.
       
      And how about t-theme Latin nouns abie:s (abie:t-) "fir", aries "ram" and paries "wall"?
       
      JS Lopes
      Rio


      Veja quais são os assuntos do momento no Yahoo! + Buscados: Top 10 - Celebridades - Música - Esportes
    • tgpedersen
      ... You could also have pointed out the many of them have root vowel /a/, thus are mots populaires , so I expect them to be ... (zzzzz...). Anybody still
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 20, 2009
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...> wrote:
        >
        > Is the Latin 5th and 3th declinations, respectively exemplified by
        > re:s/rei: (fide:s/fidei:) and nube:s/nubis, related to any
        > non-Latin IE equivalent? Latin cane:s "dog" seems to be an
        > augmented form of *can (oddly linked to *k^won-), vulpe:s "fox"
        > seems suspiciously linked to Greek alope:x (*lo:pe:-) (cognates in
        > Armenian, Celtic, Indo-Iranian). How could we explain rabies,
        > scabies, materies, facies, planities, species, etc.
        >
        > And how about t-theme Latin nouns abie:s (abie:t-) "fir", aries
        > "ram" and paries "wall"?

        You could also have pointed out the many of them have root vowel /a/, thus are 'mots populaires', so I expect them to be ... (zzzzz...). Anybody still listening?

        Ernout-Meillet on the dog word:
        '
        cane:s, canis, -is c: chien, chienne. -
        Employé aussi comme terme d'injure,
        Cane:s est la forme ancienne d'après Varr., L.L.7,32;
        c'est celle d'Ennius, A 528 V2, et de Lucilius, 1221 M.
        Mais cane:s et canis se sont substitués à un ancien thème terminé par
        -n- (cf. gr. kúo:n), qui a été éliminé en raison de son caractère
        anomal, et aussi par suite de la tendance du latin à substituer une
        flexion parisyllabique à une imparisyllabique
        (cf. iuuenis, me:nsis, etc.; v. Ernout, Philologica, p. 135 et s).
        Cane:s rappelle fe:le:s, uolpe:s, etc.;
        canis, qui doit être aussi une forme ancienne, a prévalu
        parce que les subst. en -e:s de la 3e déclinaison apparaissaient
        comme aberrants, et ont été rangés soit dans les thèmes en -i-, soit
        dans les imparisyllabiques,
        cf. trabe:s > trabs, etc. L'abl. est cane; le gén.pl. canum. -

        Attesté de tout tempe. Panroman sauf en espagnol.
        M.L.1592 et 1584a *cania.
        Dérivés:
        caninus: de chien; canin, canine; cynique (= kunikós) M.L. 1590;
        Canina, cognomen, Cani:nius, gentilice;
        cani:cula; chienne, constellation du Chien;
        nom d'un poisson, chien de mer;
        d'un crochet (= lupus);
        d'un coup de dés (coup de chien, ambesas),
        gr. kúo:n; M.L. 1586.
        De là cani:cula:ris;
        - cana:rius: de chien, augurium cana:rium;
        -a herba: chiendent, ou
        c. lappa, bardane ou argemon., M.L. 1571;
        cana:tim adv. cité par Non. à coté de bo:ua:tim, sua:tim,
        non attesté dans les textes.
        Composés tardifs:
        canicapitus = kunoképhalos (Cassiod.), caniformis (Prud.).

        Les langues romanes attestent aussi
        *cani:le "chenil", M.L. 1588;
        canius, 1595a;
        *canicula:ta (cali-): jusquiame, 1512.

        L'absence d'n dans catulus exclut tout rapport avec canis,
        quoique les anciens aient lié les deux mots, comme on le voit dans
        les gloses comme:
        catulus, genus quoddam uinculi, qui interdum canis appellatur,
        P.F.39,31, et
        catularia porta Romae dicta est, quia non longe ab ea,
        ad placandum caniculae sidus frugibus inimicum,
        rufae canes immolabantur,
        ut fruges flauescentes ad maturitatem perducerentur, P.F.39,13.

        La forme can- du latin est surprenante.
        Le celtique a la forme attendue,
        irl. cú (de kwo:), gén. con (de *kunos),
        gall. ci,
        en regard de gr. kúo:n, kunós et de
        véd. ç(u)vá:, çúnah., lit. s^u:, s^uñs (de s^unes),
        1'arm. s^un, gén. s^an (dont le s^ n'est pas clair)
        offre un vocalisme - en- pareil à celui
        qu'on rencontre dans lat. can-.
        L'absence de trace de u/w dans canis provient peut-être d'un ancien
        nominatif *co:(n) , issu de *quo: (cf. colo:), nominatif représentant
        *kwo:, en face de av. spa: "chien", issu de *swa:, cf. véd. ç(ú)va:.
        Trop anomal, le nominatif *co: parait été remplacé par une forme
        tirée des cas obliques,
        mais non sans avoir transmis à celle-ci
        l'initiale c- au lieu de qu-.
        De là le nominatif cane:s, canis.
        Une raison pareille aurait entraîné en germanique
        l'extension d'un type dérivé:
        got. hunds "chien", cf.
        arm. skund "petit chien" (de *kwon-ta:-) et
        lett. suntana "grand chien".
        Le latin a pu, du reste, hériter de cun- à coté de *kwon-, et ceci
        aurait aidé à la généralisation de c- au lieu de qu- attendu.

        Toutes les hypothèses qu'on peut tenter pour rendre compte de lat.
        can- sont arbitraires.
        Mais le rapprochement de canis avec le groupe sûrement indo-européen
        de gr. kúo:n n'est pas rendu douteux par là.'


        Accept my proposal of non-IE loan (ar-/ur-/geminate language), and all those troubles are gone:
        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62578

        On vulpe:s "fox"; I fell over this in
        Collinder:

        Uralic
        Mari lõj, luj marten, Martes |

        Mansi (Pallas) loisa (derivative?) ||

        Selkup loqa, loka fox |
        Motor lei, lai |
        Karagas lui, locka |
        Taigi lui.

        And it is difficult here to keep out the supposed PIE *wl.kW- "wolf" out of the discussion here.

        Many of the words you cite seem to be (or be able to be seen to be) mass or multitude names. Is it possible that the -t- of the 3rd decl. stems is original to both groups and that it is an old partitive (cf. the IE abl. suffix *-d) and that this is just one example of new stems being formed from particular case suffixes (another would be -s stems from nom./gen. -s)?

        Another example
        Ernout-Meillet
        'glacie:s, -e:i f.
        (et glacia, -ae, ce dernier seul demeuré dans les l. romanes,
        M.L. 3771): glace.
        Attesté à partir de Varr. et Lucr.,
        surtout poétique; rarement employé au pluriel (e.g. Vg.G.4,318).
        Dérivés:
        glacio:, -a:s (transitif et absolu) "glacer" et "geler" et conglacio:. Le composé est attesté avant le simple;
        conglacio: est déjà dans Cic. et dans Caelius,
        glacio: est de l'époque impériales.
        Étant donné son sens, il est naturel que la forme à préverbe ait
        été créée la première;
        la forme simple en a été extraite par la suite;
        cf. congelo: et gelo:.
        Adj. glacia:lis, qui a tendu à remplacer gelidus dont le sens
        s'était affaibli.
        Inchoatif glacie:sco: (Plin.).
        V. gelu:.

        La formation de glacie:s n'est pas claire.'

        True that.
        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/44456
        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62056
        (both xrinþiz- and *glas- is on the previuosly mentioned list of Germanic Verner-alternating nouns:
        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62159
        )

        As for
        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58962
        I think now it's rather like this
        *gel(w)-án,- -> *gl-án,-
        in (endingless) nom. *gl-án,# -> glak-
        in genitive (as appropriate for a mass noun) *gl-án,-s- -> *gla:s-
        with a lot of back and forth borrowing, of course
        (Lat. gla:ns, glandis, Russ. glaz, German Glanz etc).


        Torsten
      • Rick McCallister
        ... From: tgpedersen Subject: [tied] Re: eH- themes, 5th Declination Latin, IE cognates? To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday,
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 20, 2009
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          --- On Mon, 7/20/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

          From: tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...>
          Subject: [tied] Re: eH- themes, 5th Declination Latin, IE cognates?
          To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, July 20, 2009, 2:28 PM

           

          --- In cybalist@yahoogroup s.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@.. .> wrote:
          >
          > Is the Latin 5th and 3th declinations, respectively exemplified by
          > re:s/rei: (fide:s/fidei: ) and nube:s/nubis, related to any
          > non-Latin IE equivalent? Latin cane:s "dog" seems to be an
          > augmented form of *can (oddly linked to *k^won-), vulpe:s "fox"
          > seems suspiciously linked to Greek alope:x (*lo:pe:-) (cognates in
          > Armenian, Celtic, Indo-Iranian) . How could we explain rabies,
          > scabies, materies, facies, planities, species, etc.
          >
          > And how about t-theme Latin nouns abie:s (abie:t-) "fir", aries
          > "ram" and paries "wall"?

          You could also have pointed out the many of them have root vowel /a/, thus are 'mots populaires', so I expect them to be ... (zzzzz...). Anybody still listening?

          Ernout-Meillet on the dog word:
          '
          cane:s, canis, -is c: chien, chienne. -
          Employé aussi comme terme d'injure,
          Cane:s est la forme ancienne d'après Varr., L.L.7,32;
          c'est celle d'Ennius, A 528 V2, et de Lucilius, 1221 M.
          Mais cane:s et canis se sont substitués à un ancien thème terminé par
          -n- (cf. gr. kúo:n), qui a été éliminé en raison de son caractère
          anomal, et aussi par suite de la tendance du latin à substituer une
          flexion parisyllabique à une imparisyllabique
          (cf. iuuenis, me:nsis, etc.; v. Ernout, Philologica, p. 135 et s).
          Cane:s rappelle fe:le:s, uolpe:s, etc.;
          canis, qui doit être aussi une forme ancienne, a prévalu
          parce que les subst. en -e:s de la 3e déclinaison apparaissaient
          comme aberrants, et ont été rangés soit dans les thèmes en -i-, soit
          dans les imparisyllabiques,
          cf. trabe:s > trabs, etc. L'abl. est cane; le gén.pl. canum. -

          Attesté de tout tempe. Panroman sauf en espagnol. 

          ***R, that's a lie from Hell. Spanish has <can>. Portuguese, btw, uses cachorro, just as Spanish uses perro, as its main word, but also has <cão>.


          M.L.1592 et 1584a *cania
          Dérivés:
          caninus: de chien; canin, canine; cynique (= kunikós) M.L. 1590;
          Canina, cognomen, Cani:nius, gentilice;
          cani:cula; chienne, constellation du Chien;
          nom d'un poisson, chien de mer;
          d'un crochet (= lupus);
          d'un coup de dés (coup de chien, ambesas),
          gr. kúo:n; M.L. 1586.
          De là cani:cula:ris;
          - cana:rius: de chien, augurium cana:rium;
          -a herba: chiendent, ou
          c. lappa, bardane ou argemon., M.L. 1571;
          cana:tim adv. cité par Non. à coté de bo:ua:tim, sua:tim,
          non attesté dans les textes.
          Composés tardifs:
          canicapitus = kunoképhalos (Cassiod.), caniformis (Prud.).

          Les langues romanes attestent aussi
          *cani:le "chenil", M.L. 1588;
          canius, 1595a;
          *canicula:ta (cali-): jusquiame, 1512.

          L'absence d'n dans catulus exclut tout rapport avec canis,
          quoique les anciens aient lié les deux mots, comme on le voit dans
          les gloses comme:
          catulus, genus quoddam uinculi, qui interdum canis appellatur,
          P.F.39,31, et
          catularia porta Romae dicta est, quia non longe ab ea,
          ad placandum caniculae sidus frugibus inimicum,
          rufae canes immolabantur,
          ut fruges flauescentes ad maturitatem perducerentur, P.F.39,13.

          La forme can- du latin est surprenante.
          Le celtique a la forme attendue,
          irl. cú (de kwo:), gén. con (de *kunos),
          gall. ci,
          en regard de gr. kúo:n, kunós et de
          véd. ç(u)vá:, çúnah., lit. s^u:, s^uñs (de s^unes),
          1'arm. s^un, gén. s^an (dont le s^ n'est pas clair)
          offre un vocalisme - en- pareil à celui
          qu'on rencontre dans lat. can-.
          L'absence de trace de u/w dans canis provient peut-être d'un ancien
          nominatif *co:(n) , issu de *quo: (cf. colo:), nominatif représentant
          *kwo:, en face de av. spa: "chien", issu de *swa:, cf. véd. ç(ú)va:.
          Trop anomal, le nominatif *co: parait été remplacé par une forme
          tirée des cas obliques,
          mais non sans avoir transmis à celle-ci
          l'initiale c- au lieu de qu-.
          De là le nominatif cane:s, canis.
          Une raison pareille aurait entraîné en germanique
          l'extension d'un type dérivé:
          got. hunds "chien", cf.
          arm. skund "petit chien" (de *kwon-ta:-) et
          lett. suntana "grand chien".
          Le latin a pu, du reste, hériter de cun- à coté de *kwon-, et ceci
          aurait aidé à la généralisation de c- au lieu de qu- attendu.

          Toutes les hypothèses qu'on peut tenter pour rendre compte de lat.
          can- sont arbitraires.
          Mais le rapprochement de canis avec le groupe sûrement indo-européen
          de gr. kúo:n n'est pas rendu douteux par là.'

          Accept my proposal of non-IE loan (ar-/ur-/geminate language), and all those troubles are gone:
          http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/62578

          On vulpe:s "fox"; I fell over this in
          Collinder:

          Uralic
          Mari lõj, luj marten, Martes |

          Mansi (Pallas) loisa (derivative? ) ||

          Selkup loqa, loka fox |
          Motor lei, lai |
          Karagas lui, locka |
          Taigi lui.

          And it is difficult here to keep out the supposed PIE *wl.kW- "wolf" out of the discussion here.

          Many of the words you cite seem to be (or be able to be seen to be) mass or multitude names. Is it possible that the -t- of the 3rd decl. stems is original to both groups and that it is an old partitive (cf. the IE abl. suffix *-d) and that this is just one example of new stems being formed from particular case suffixes (another would be -s stems from nom./gen. -s)?

          Another example
          Ernout-Meillet
          'glacie:s, -e:i f.
          (et glacia, -ae, ce dernier seul demeuré dans les l. romanes,
          M.L. 3771): glace.
          Attesté à partir de Varr. et Lucr.,
          surtout poétique; rarement employé au pluriel (e.g. Vg.G.4,318).
          Dérivés:
          glacio:, -a:s (transitif et absolu) "glacer" et "geler" et conglacio:. Le composé est attesté avant le simple;
          conglacio: est déjà dans Cic. et dans Caelius,
          glacio: est de l'époque impériales.
          Étant donné son sens, il est naturel que la forme à préverbe ait
          été créée la première;
          la forme simple en a été extraite par la suite;
          cf. congelo: et gelo:.
          Adj. glacia:lis, qui a tendu à remplacer gelidus dont le sens
          s'était affaibli.
          Inchoatif glacie:sco: (Plin.).
          V. gelu:.

          La formation de glacie:s n'est pas claire.'

          True that.
          http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/44456
          http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/62056
          (both xrinþiz- and *glas- is on the previuosly mentioned list of Germanic Verner-alternating nouns:
          http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/62159
          )

          As for
          http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/58962
          I think now it's rather like this
          *gel(w)-án,- -> *gl-án,-
          in (endingless) nom. *gl-án,# -> glak-
          in genitive (as appropriate for a mass noun) *gl-án,-s- -> *gla:s-
          with a lot of back and forth borrowing, of course
          (Lat. gla:ns, glandis, Russ. glaz, German Glanz etc).

          Torsten



        • Joao S. Lopes
          vulpe:s (uolpe:s) may represent a link to *h2lo(u)pe:-k^- (alopex, lopas^a, lues, loarnos), maybe a metathesis from *uLpe:-
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 20, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            vulpe:s (uolpe:s) may represent a link to *h2lo(u)pe:-k^- (alopex, lopas^a, lues, loarnos), maybe a metathesis from *uLpe:- < *lupe:-, or some compound *vulc-lupe:- > *vulclupe> *vullupe> *vulpe-
            scabie:s - link to adjective scaber
            -itie:s suffix could come from -it- < *h1ei- "to go"
            specie:s < *spek^ "to see" ? - an image, a form, a shape.
            or...
            -ie:s < *iie:s < *idye:s ? rabies "rage" < rabidus
             
            JS Lopes


            De: tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...>
            Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
            Enviadas: Segunda-feira, 20 de Julho de 2009 15:28:18
            Assunto: [tied] Re: eH- themes, 5th Declination Latin, IE cognates?

             

            --- In cybalist@yahoogroup s.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@.. .> wrote:
            >
            > Is the Latin 5th and 3th declinations, respectively exemplified by
            > re:s/rei: (fide:s/fidei: ) and nube:s/nubis, related to any
            > non-Latin IE equivalent? Latin cane:s "dog" seems to be an
            > augmented form of *can (oddly linked to *k^won-), vulpe:s "fox"
            > seems suspiciously linked to Greek alope:x (*lo:pe:-) (cognates in
            > Armenian, Celtic, Indo-Iranian) . How could we explain rabies,
            > scabies, materies, facies, planities, species, etc.
            >
            > And how about t-theme Latin nouns abie:s (abie:t-) "fir", aries
            > "ram" and paries "wall"?

            You could also have pointed out the many of them have root vowel /a/, thus are 'mots populaires', so I expect them to be ... (zzzzz...). Anybody still listening?

            Ernout-Meillet on the dog word:
            '
            cane:s, canis, -is c: chien, chienne. -
            Employé aussi comme terme d'injure,
            Cane:s est la forme ancienne d'après Varr., L.L.7,32;
            c'est celle d'Ennius, A 528 V2, et de Lucilius, 1221 M.
            Mais cane:s et canis se sont substitués à un ancien thème terminé par
            -n- (cf. gr. kúo:n), qui a été éliminé en raison de son caractère
            anomal, et aussi par suite de la tendance du latin à substituer une
            flexion parisyllabique à une imparisyllabique
            (cf. iuuenis, me:nsis, etc.; v. Ernout, Philologica, p. 135 et s).
            Cane:s rappelle fe:le:s, uolpe:s, etc.;
            canis, qui doit être aussi une forme ancienne, a prévalu
            parce que les subst. en -e:s de la 3e déclinaison apparaissaient
            comme aberrants, et ont été rangés soit dans les thèmes en -i-, soit
            dans les imparisyllabiques,
            cf. trabe:s > trabs, etc. L'abl. est cane; le gén.pl. canum. -

            Attesté de tout tempe. Panroman sauf en espagnol.
            M.L.1592 et 1584a *cania.
            Dérivés:
            caninus: de chien; canin, canine; cynique (= kunikós) M.L. 1590;
            Canina, cognomen, Cani:nius, gentilice;
            cani:cula; chienne, constellation du Chien;
            nom d'un poisson, chien de mer;
            d'un crochet (= lupus);
            d'un coup de dés (coup de chien, ambesas),
            gr. kúo:n; M.L. 1586.
            De là cani:cula:ris;
            - cana:rius: de chien, augurium cana:rium;
            -a herba: chiendent, ou
            c. lappa, bardane ou argemon., M.L. 1571;
            cana:tim adv. cité par Non. à coté de bo:ua:tim, sua:tim,
            non attesté dans les textes.
            Composés tardifs:
            canicapitus = kunoképhalos (Cassiod.), caniformis (Prud.).

            Les langues romanes attestent aussi
            *cani:le "chenil", M.L. 1588;
            canius, 1595a;
            *canicula:ta (cali-): jusquiame, 1512.

            L'absence d'n dans catulus exclut tout rapport avec canis,
            quoique les anciens aient lié les deux mots, comme on le voit dans
            les gloses comme:
            catulus, genus quoddam uinculi, qui interdum canis appellatur,
            P.F.39,31, et
            catularia porta Romae dicta est, quia non longe ab ea,
            ad placandum caniculae sidus frugibus inimicum,
            rufae canes immolabantur,
            ut fruges flauescentes ad maturitatem perducerentur, P.F.39,13.

            La forme can- du latin est surprenante.
            Le celtique a la forme attendue,
            irl. cú (de kwo:), gén. con (de *kunos),
            gall. ci,
            en regard de gr. kúo:n, kunós et de
            véd. ç(u)vá:, çúnah., lit. s^u:, s^uñs (de s^unes),
            1'arm. s^un, gén. s^an (dont le s^ n'est pas clair)
            offre un vocalisme - en- pareil à celui
            qu'on rencontre dans lat. can-.
            L'absence de trace de u/w dans canis provient peut-être d'un ancien
            nominatif *co:(n) , issu de *quo: (cf. colo:), nominatif représentant
            *kwo:, en face de av. spa: "chien", issu de *swa:, cf. véd. ç(ú)va:.
            Trop anomal, le nominatif *co: parait été remplacé par une forme
            tirée des cas obliques,
            mais non sans avoir transmis à celle-ci
            l'initiale c- au lieu de qu-.
            De là le nominatif cane:s, canis.
            Une raison pareille aurait entraîné en germanique
            l'extension d'un type dérivé:
            got. hunds "chien", cf.
            arm. skund "petit chien" (de *kwon-ta:-) et
            lett. suntana "grand chien".
            Le latin a pu, du reste, hériter de cun- à coté de *kwon-, et ceci
            aurait aidé à la généralisation de c- au lieu de qu- attendu.

            Toutes les hypothèses qu'on peut tenter pour rendre compte de lat.
            can- sont arbitraires.
            Mais le rapprochement de canis avec le groupe sûrement indo-européen
            de gr. kúo:n n'est pas rendu douteux par là.'

            Accept my proposal of non-IE loan (ar-/ur-/geminate language), and all those troubles are gone:
            http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/62578

            On vulpe:s "fox"; I fell over this in
            Collinder:

            Uralic
            Mari lõj, luj marten, Martes |

            Mansi (Pallas) loisa (derivative? ) ||

            Selkup loqa, loka fox |
            Motor lei, lai |
            Karagas lui, locka |
            Taigi lui.

            And it is difficult here to keep out the supposed PIE *wl.kW- "wolf" out of the discussion here.

            Many of the words you cite seem to be (or be able to be seen to be) mass or multitude names. Is it possible that the -t- of the 3rd decl. stems is original to both groups and that it is an old partitive (cf. the IE abl. suffix *-d) and that this is just one example of new stems being formed from particular case suffixes (another would be -s stems from nom./gen. -s)?

            Another example
            Ernout-Meillet
            'glacie:s, -e:i f.
            (et glacia, -ae, ce dernier seul demeuré dans les l. romanes,
            M.L. 3771): glace.
            Attesté à partir de Varr. et Lucr.,
            surtout poétique; rarement employé au pluriel (e.g. Vg.G.4,318).
            Dérivés:
            glacio:, -a:s (transitif et absolu) "glacer" et "geler" et conglacio:. Le composé est attesté avant le simple;
            conglacio: est déjà dans Cic. et dans Caelius,
            glacio: est de l'époque impériales.
            Étant donné son sens, il est naturel que la forme à préverbe ait
            été créée la première;
            la forme simple en a été extraite par la suite;
            cf. congelo: et gelo:.
            Adj. glacia:lis, qui a tendu à remplacer gelidus dont le sens
            s'était affaibli.
            Inchoatif glacie:sco: (Plin.).
            V. gelu:.

            La formation de glacie:s n'est pas claire.'

            True that.
            http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/44456
            http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/62056
            (both xrinþiz- and *glas- is on the previuosly mentioned list of Germanic Verner-alternating nouns:
            http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/62159
            )

            As for
            http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/58962
            I think now it's rather like this
            *gel(w)-án,- -> *gl-án,-
            in (endingless) nom. *gl-án,# -> glak-
            in genitive (as appropriate for a mass noun) *gl-án,-s- -> *gla:s-
            with a lot of back and forth borrowing, of course
            (Lat. gla:ns, glandis, Russ. glaz, German Glanz etc).

            Torsten




            Veja quais são os assuntos do momento no Yahoo! + Buscados: Top 10 - Celebridades - Música - Esportes
          • dgkilday57
            ... Burrow very plausibly separated from the kennel and derived it from a root *kan- small attested in Indo-Iranian, e.g. Sanskrit
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 20, 2009
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              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
              >
              > [...]
              >
              > Ernout-Meillet on the dog word:
              >
              > [...]
              >
              > L'absence d'n dans catulus exclut tout rapport avec canis,
              > quoique les anciens aient lié les deux mots, comme on le voit dans
              > les gloses comme:
              > catulus, genus quoddam uinculi, qui interdum canis appellatur,
              > P.F.39,31, et
              > catularia porta Romae dicta est, quia non longe ab ea,
              > ad placandum caniculae sidus frugibus inimicum,
              > rufae canes immolabantur,
              > ut fruges flauescentes ad maturitatem perducerentur, P.F.39,13.
              >
              > La forme can- du latin est surprenante.
              > Le celtique a la forme attendue,
              > irl. cú (de kwo:), gén. con (de *kunos),
              > gall. ci,
              > en regard de gr. kúo:n, kunós et de
              > véd. ç(u)vá:, çúnah., lit. s^u:, s^uñs (de s^unes),
              > 1'arm. s^un, gén. s^an (dont le s^ n'est pas clair)
              > offre un vocalisme - en- pareil à celui
              > qu'on rencontre dans lat. can-.
              > L'absence de trace de u/w dans canis provient peut-être d'un ancien
              > nominatif *co:(n) , issu de *quo: (cf. colo:), nominatif représentant
              > *kwo:, en face de av. spa: "chien", issu de *swa:, cf. véd. ç(ú)va:.
              > Trop anomal, le nominatif *co: parait été remplacé par une forme
              > tirée des cas obliques,
              > mais non sans avoir transmis à celle-ci
              > l'initiale c- au lieu de qu-.
              > De là le nominatif cane:s, canis.
              > Une raison pareille aurait entraîné en germanique
              > l'extension d'un type dérivé:
              > got. hunds "chien", cf.
              > arm. skund "petit chien" (de *kwon-ta:-) et
              > lett. suntana "grand chien".
              > Le latin a pu, du reste, hériter de cun- à coté de *kwon-, et ceci
              > aurait aidé à la généralisation de c- au lieu de qu- attendu.
              >
              > Toutes les hypothèses qu'on peut tenter pour rendre compte de lat.
              > can- sont arbitraires.
              > Mais le rapprochement de canis avec le groupe sûrement indo-européen
              > de gr. kúo:n n'est pas rendu douteux par là.'

              Burrow very plausibly separated <cane:s> from the kennel and derived it from a root *kan- 'small' attested in Indo-Iranian, e.g. Sanskrit <kanis.t.ha-> 'smaller', <kanya:-> 'girl' (from 'little girl'). The Latin sense 'dog' would follow from 'small animal' > 'cub, whelp' just as Umbrian <katel> 'dog' follows from 'cub, whelp' preserved in its Latin cognate <catulus>. It is not surprising that <canis> and <catulus> have similar secondary senses, though etymologically unrelated.
              >
              > [...]
              >
              > As for
              > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58962
              > I think now it's rather like this
              > *gel(w)-án,- -> *gl-án,-
              > in (endingless) nom. *gl-án,# -> glak-
              > in genitive (as appropriate for a mass noun) *gl-án,-s- -> *gla:s-
              > with a lot of back and forth borrowing, of course
              > (Lat. gla:ns, glandis, Russ. glaz, German Glanz etc).

              Lat. <gla:ns> 'acorn' belongs with Greek <balanos>; very likely <Blandusia> reflects the P-Italic cognate 'productive in acorns' vel sim., Proto-Italic *gWlan-d-, PIE *gW(e)lh2-n-.

              DGK
            • tgpedersen
              ... With due respect etc, that s not plausible. ... Accept my proposal and avoid such surprises. ... That s right, except it s probably better to lose the
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 21, 2009
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                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
                > >
                > > [...]
                > >
                > > Ernout-Meillet on the dog word:
                > >
                > > [...]
                > >
                > > L'absence d'n dans catulus exclut tout rapport avec canis,
                > > quoique les anciens aient lié les deux mots, comme on le voit
                > > dans les gloses comme:
                > > catulus, genus quoddam uinculi, qui interdum canis appellatur,
                > > P.F.39,31, et
                > > catularia porta Romae dicta est, quia non longe ab ea,
                > > ad placandum caniculae sidus frugibus inimicum,
                > > rufae canes immolabantur,
                > > ut fruges flauescentes ad maturitatem perducerentur, P.F.39,13.
                > >
                > > La forme can- du latin est surprenante.
                > > Le celtique a la forme attendue,
                > > irl. cú (de kwo:), gén. con (de *kunos),
                > > gall. ci,
                > > en regard de gr. kúo:n, kunós et de
                > > véd. ç(u)vá:, çúnah., lit. s^u:, s^uñs (de s^unes),
                > > 1'arm. s^un, gén. s^an (dont le s^ n'est pas clair)
                > > offre un vocalisme - en- pareil à celui
                > > qu'on rencontre dans lat. can-.
                > > L'absence de trace de u/w dans canis provient peut-être d'un
                > > ancien nominatif *co:(n) , issu de *quo: (cf. colo:), nominatif
                > > représentant *kwo:, en face de av. spa: "chien", issu de *swa:,
                > > cf. véd. ç(ú)va:.
                > > Trop anomal, le nominatif *co: parait été remplacé par une forme
                > > tirée des cas obliques,
                > > mais non sans avoir transmis à celle-ci
                > > l'initiale c- au lieu de qu-.
                > > De là le nominatif cane:s, canis.
                > > Une raison pareille aurait entraîné en germanique
                > > l'extension d'un type dérivé:
                > > got. hunds "chien", cf.
                > > arm. skund "petit chien" (de *kwon-ta:-) et
                > > lett. suntana "grand chien".
                > > Le latin a pu, du reste, hériter de cun- à coté de *kwon-, et
                > > ceci aurait aidé à la généralisation de c- au lieu de qu-
                > > attendu.
                > >
                > > Toutes les hypothèses qu'on peut tenter pour rendre compte de
                > > lat. can- sont arbitraires.
                > > Mais le rapprochement de canis avec le groupe sûrement
                > > indo-européen de gr. kúo:n n'est pas rendu douteux par là.'
                >
                > Burrow very plausibly separated <cane:s> from the kennel and
                > derived it from a root *kan- 'small' attested in Indo-Iranian, e.g.
                > Sanskrit <kanis.t.ha-> 'smaller', <kanya:-> 'girl' (from 'little
                > girl').

                With due respect etc, that's not plausible.

                > The Latin sense 'dog' would follow from 'small animal' >
                > 'cub, whelp' just as Umbrian <katel> 'dog' follows from 'cub,
                > whelp' preserved in its Latin cognate <catulus>. It is not
                > surprising that <canis> and <catulus> have similar secondary
                > senses, though etymologically unrelated.

                Accept my proposal and avoid such surprises.


                > >
                > > [...]
                > >
                > > As for
                > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58962
                > > I think now it's rather like this
                > > *gel(w)-án,- -> *gl-án,-
                > > in (endingless) nom. *gl-án,# -> glak-
                > > in genitive (as appropriate for a mass noun) *gl-án,-s- ->
                > > *gla:s- with a lot of back and forth borrowing, of course
                > > (Lat. gla:ns, glandis, Russ. glaz, German Glanz etc).
                >
                > Lat. <gla:ns> 'acorn' belongs with Greek <balanos>; very likely
                > <Blandusia> reflects the P-Italic cognate 'productive in acorns'
                > vel sim., Proto-Italic *gWlan-d-, PIE *gW(e)lh2-n-.
                >

                That's right, except it's probably better to lose the laryngeal and reconstruct instead *g(W)l-ánd-, some nominal form (participle?) of *g(W)elW- "freeze; coagulate". And it's a substrate loan, cf

                Collinder

                'Saami gielo ~ gíllumâ- clot of coagulated blood |

                [? Mansi keel&p blood; red |

                Khanty
                N Kazym haþt&p: h. juh alder (juh tree),
                S Nizjam hatt&p menstruation blood; blood] ||

                Yurak Samoyed sielw blood that has dried to a hard condition.'


                Any theory that includes the verb reconstructed as PIE *g(W)el- etc (Pokorny sidesteps it: 'wohl ursprünglich "Eiche"', "probably originally "oak"") will have to account for the distribution of the Uralic word.


                Torsten
              • tgpedersen
                ... This might be the orignal sense of the word *gland- etc nicely situated semantically between eye , shiny pebble and gel .
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 21, 2009
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                  > > > As for
                  > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58962
                  > > > I think now it's rather like this
                  > > > *gel(w)-án,- -> *gl-án,-
                  > > > in (endingless) nom. *gl-án,# -> glak-
                  > > > in genitive (as appropriate for a mass noun) *gl-án,-s- ->
                  > > > *gla:s- with a lot of back and forth borrowing, of course
                  > > > (Lat. gla:ns, glandis, Russ. glaz, German Glanz etc).
                  > >
                  > > Lat. <gla:ns> 'acorn' belongs with Greek <balanos>; very likely
                  > > <Blandusia> reflects the P-Italic cognate 'productive in acorns'
                  > > vel sim., Proto-Italic *gWlan-d-, PIE *gW(e)lh2-n-.
                  > >
                  >
                  > That's right, except it's probably better to lose the laryngeal and
                  > reconstruct instead *g(W)l-ánd-, some nominal form (participle?) of
                  > *g(W)elW- "freeze; coagulate". And it's a substrate loan, cf
                  >
                  > Collinder
                  >
                  > 'Saami gielo ~ gíllumâ- clot of coagulated blood |
                  >
                  > [? Mansi keel&p blood; red |
                  >
                  > Khanty
                  > N Kazym haþt&p: h. juh alder (juh tree),
                  > S Nizjam hatt&p menstruation blood; blood] ||
                  >
                  > Yurak Samoyed sielw blood that has dried to a hard condition.'
                  >
                  >
                  > Any theory that includes the verb reconstructed as PIE *g(W)el- etc
                  > (Pokorny sidesteps it: 'wohl ursprünglich "Eiche"', "probably
                  > originally "oak"") will have to account for the distribution of the
                  > Uralic word.

                  This might be the orignal sense of the word *gland- etc
                  nicely situated semantically between "eye", "shiny pebble" and "gel".
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitreous_humour
                  Anyone who's cooked cod will know what I'm talking about: the gelatinous vitreous body of the eye turns into a small white round pebble.


                  Torsten
                • Torsten
                  ... Another one for glass collection: Ernout-Meillet: gramiae, -a:rum (a:?) f.pl.: - oculorum sunt uitia quas alii glamas uocant, P.F.85,26. Glamae est
                  Message 8 of 14 , Sep 19, 2009
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                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > > > > As for
                    > > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58962
                    > > > > I think now it's rather like this
                    > > > > *gel(w)-án,- -> *gl-án,-
                    > > > > in (endingless) nom. *gl-án,# -> glak-
                    > > > > in genitive (as appropriate for a mass noun) *gl-án,-s- ->
                    > > > > *gla:s- with a lot of back and forth borrowing, of course
                    > > > > (Lat. gla:ns, glandis, Russ. glaz, German Glanz etc).
                    > > >
                    > > > Lat. <gla:ns> 'acorn' belongs with Greek <balanos>; very likely
                    > > > <Blandusia> reflects the P-Italic cognate 'productive in
                    > > > acorns' vel sim., Proto-Italic *gWlan-d-, PIE *gW(e)lh2-n-.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > That's right, except it's probably better to lose the laryngeal
                    > > and reconstruct instead *g(W)l-ánd-, some nominal form
                    > > (participle?) of *g(W)elW- "freeze; coagulate". And it's a
                    > > substrate loan, cf
                    > >
                    > > Collinder
                    > >
                    > > 'Saami gielo ~ gíllumâ- clot of coagulated blood |
                    > >
                    > > [? Mansi keel&p blood; red |
                    > >
                    > > Khanty
                    > > N Kazym haþt&p: h. juh alder (juh tree),
                    > > S Nizjam hatt&p menstruation blood; blood] ||
                    > >
                    > > Yurak Samoyed sielw blood that has dried to a hard condition.'
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Any theory that includes the verb reconstructed as PIE *g(W)el-
                    > > etc (Pokorny sidesteps it: 'wohl ursprünglich "Eiche"', "probably
                    > > originally "oak"") will have to account for the distribution of
                    > > the Uralic word.
                    >
                    > This might be the orignal sense of the word *gland- etc
                    > nicely situated semantically between "eye", "shiny pebble" and
                    > "gel".
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitreous_humour
                    > Anyone who's cooked cod will know what I'm talking about: the
                    > gelatinous vitreous body of the eye turns into a small white round
                    > pebble.

                    Another one for 'glass' collection:
                    Ernout-Meillet:
                    'gramiae, -a:rum (a:?) f.pl.:
                    - oculorum sunt uitia quas alii glamas uocant, P.F.85,26.
                    Glamae est apparenté ou emprunté à
                    gr. glama (cf. glé:mion) dont proviennent
                    glamáo:, glámo:n, glaurós etc., v. Boisacq s.u.,
                    et n'est pas apparenté à gramiae. Les dictionnaires donnent de gramia un dérivé
                    gramio:sus.
                    Mais Nonius, xxy,15, cite la forme
                    grammo:(n)sus
                    dans un sénaire de Caecilius (R3286):
                    grammonsis oculis ipsa, atratis dentibus;
                    et la même forme se retrouve dans les gloses, cf. Landgraf, ALLG 9,403 et suiv., Glossar., Latina III 153.
                    Grammo:sus suppose un substantif *gramma, qui présente la même gémination que le mot gotique cité plus bas. De ce gramma a pu être dérivé un adj. *gramius dont gramiae serait le f.pl. substantivé.
                    Mot rare, populaire. Aucune des formes n'a passé dans les langues romanes.
                    On rapproche got. qrammiþa "ikmás" (avec gémination expressive?), dont le sens est plus général, et v. sl. grIme^z^dI "chassie" dont la formation n'est pas claire.'

                    Apparently people imagined puss in the eye as leaking vitreus humor.
                    Also apparently gra- and gla- alternated, pace Ernout-Meillet. Gk. glaurós seems to indicate nasalization, *glaN-ró-


                    Torsten
                  • Torsten
                    ... In the line of flotsam and marine detritus (mostly seaweed) on the beaches in this part of he world where you usually find amber in this part of the world
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 26, 2009
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                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
                      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
                      > > > > > As for
                      > > > > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/58962
                      > > > > > I think now it's rather like this
                      > > > > > *gel(w)-án,- -> *gl-án,-
                      > > > > > in (endingless) nom. *gl-án,# -> glak-
                      > > > > > in genitive (as appropriate for a mass noun) *gl-án,-s- ->
                      > > > > > *gla:s- with a lot of back and forth borrowing, of course
                      > > > > > (Lat. gla:ns, glandis, Russ. glaz, German Glanz etc).
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Lat. <gla:ns> 'acorn' belongs with Greek <balanos>; very
                      > > > > likely <Blandusia> reflects the P-Italic cognate 'productive
                      > > > > in acorns' vel sim., Proto-Italic *gWlan-d-, PIE *gW(e)lh2-n-.
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > That's right, except it's probably better to lose the laryngeal
                      > > > and reconstruct instead *g(W)l-ánd-, some nominal form
                      > > > (participle?) of *g(W)elW- "freeze; coagulate". And it's a
                      > > > substrate loan, cf
                      > > >
                      > > > Collinder
                      > > >
                      > > > 'Saami gielo ~ gíllumâ- clot of coagulated blood |
                      > > >
                      > > > [? Mansi keel&p blood; red |
                      > > >
                      > > > Khanty
                      > > > N Kazym haþt&p: h. juh alder (juh tree),
                      > > > S Nizjam hatt&p menstruation blood; blood] ||
                      > > >
                      > > > Yurak Samoyed sielw blood that has dried to a hard condition.'
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Any theory that includes the verb reconstructed as PIE *g(W)el-
                      > > > etc (Pokorny sidesteps it: 'wohl ursprünglich "Eiche"',
                      > > > "probably originally "oak"") will have to account for the
                      > > > distribution of the Uralic word.
                      > >
                      > > This might be the orignal sense of the word *gland- etc
                      > > nicely situated semantically between "eye", "shiny pebble" and
                      > > "gel".
                      > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitreous_humour
                      > > Anyone who's cooked cod will know what I'm talking about: the
                      > > gelatinous vitreous body of the eye turns into a small white
                      > > round pebble.
                      >
                      > Another one for 'glass' collection:
                      > Ernout-Meillet:
                      > 'gramiae, -a:rum (a:?) f.pl.:
                      > - oculorum sunt uitia quas alii glamas uocant, P.F.85,26.
                      > Glamae est apparenté ou emprunté à
                      > gr. glama (cf. glé:mion) dont proviennent
                      > glamáo:, glámo:n, glaurós etc., v. Boisacq s.u.,
                      > et n'est pas apparenté à gramiae. Les dictionnaires donnent de
                      > gramia un dérivé
                      > gramio:sus.
                      > Mais Nonius, xxy,15, cite la forme
                      > grammo:(n)sus
                      > dans un sénaire de Caecilius (R3286):
                      > grammonsis oculis ipsa, atratis dentibus;
                      > et la même forme se retrouve dans les gloses, cf. Landgraf,
                      > ALLG 9,403 et suiv., Glossar., Latina III 153.
                      > Grammo:sus suppose un substantif *gramma, qui présente la même
                      > gémination que le mot gotique cité plus bas. De ce gramma a pu
                      > être dérivé un adj. *gramius dont gramiae serait le f.pl.
                      > substantivé.
                      > Mot rare, populaire. Aucune des formes n'a passé dans les langues
                      > romanes.
                      > On rapproche got. qrammiþa "ikmás" (avec gémination expressive?),
                      > dont le sens est plus général, et v. sl. grIme^z^dI "chassie" dont
                      > la formation n'est pas claire.'
                      >
                      > Apparently people imagined puss in the eye as leaking vitreus humor.
                      > Also apparently gra- and gla- alternated, pace Ernout-Meillet. Gk.
                      > glaurós seems to indicate nasalization, *glaN-ró-
                      >

                      In the line of flotsam and marine detritus (mostly seaweed) on the beaches in this part of he world where you usually find amber in this part of the world you also find large numbers of dead jellyfish
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jellyfish
                      especially after blooms; they shrink to a transparent gelatinous glob of a size comparable to that of most pieces of amber.


                      Torsten
                    • Tavi
                      ... it from a root *kan- small attested in Indo-Iranian, e.g. Sanskrit smaller , girl (from little girl ). ... Unfortunately,
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 14, 2012
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                        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Burrow very plausibly separated <cane:s> from the kennel and derived it from a root *kan- 'small' attested in Indo-Iranian, e.g. Sanskrit <kanis.t.ha-> 'smaller', <kanya:-> 'girl' (from 'little girl').
                        >
                        Unfortunately, this is an IE root *ken- whose meaning is 'young, new' (e.g. Latin rece:ns), not 'small'.

                        But IMHO your semantical proposal (that is, deriving 'dog' from 'small animal') is good, in despite there's no IE etymology for this word.
                      • dgkilday57
                        ... I recently argued in favor of *kenh1-, which I believe covers practically everything Burrow placed under *kan-, and supersedes my old post cited above. ...
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 15, 2012
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                          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Burrow very plausibly separated <cane:s> from the kennel and derived
                          > it from a root *kan- 'small' attested in Indo-Iranian, e.g. Sanskrit
                          > <kanis.t.ha-> 'smaller', <kanya:-> 'girl' (from 'little girl').
                          > >
                          > Unfortunately, this is an IE root *ken- whose meaning is 'young, new'
                          > (e.g. Latin rece:ns), not 'small'.

                          I recently argued in favor of *kenh1-, which I believe covers practically everything Burrow placed under *kan-, and supersedes my old post cited above.

                          > But IMHO your semantical proposal (that is, deriving 'dog' from 'small
                          > animal') is good, in despite there's no IE etymology for this word.

                          That is not "my" proposal, and it has an obvious parallel in Umbrian <katel> 'dog'; Latin <catulus> 'whelp' is less specific.

                          DGK
                        • Tavi
                          ... practically everything Burrow placed under *kan-, and supersedes my old post cited above. ... To me, it looks like a cousin of *g´enh1- to bear a
                          Message 12 of 14 , Feb 18, 2012
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                            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I recently argued in favor of *kenh1-, which I believe covers practically everything Burrow placed under *kan-, and supersedes my old post cited above.
                            >
                            To me, it looks like a "cousin" of *g´enh1- 'to bear a child; to be born', which I link to NEC *ts'än?V 'new'.

                            > > But IMHO your semantical proposal (that is, deriving 'dog' from 'small
                            > > animal') is good, in despite there's no IE etymology for this word.
                            >
                            > That is not "my" proposal, and it has an obvious parallel
                            >
                            I don't think "obvious" would be right here. I can't see any near relationship between canis and catulus, nor I don't think they derive from the forementioned root.

                            > in Umbrian <katel> 'dog'; Latin <catulus> 'whelp' is less specific.
                            >
                            The use of 'whelp' (< 'young animal') applied to dogs is rather common, e.g. in Galician-Portuguese the femenine form of can, ca~o 'dog' is cadela 'bitch'. But by no means it has to be taken as a general rule.


                          • dgkilday57
                            ... The roots *kenh1- and *g^enh1- have similar shapes. That is all. There is no basis for connecting them etymologically. Those of us open to long-range
                            Message 13 of 14 , Feb 20, 2012
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                              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I recently argued in favor of *kenh1-, which I believe covers
                              > practically everything Burrow placed under *kan-, and supersedes my old
                              > post cited above.
                              > >
                              > To me, it looks like a "cousin" of *g´enh1- 'to bear a child; to be
                              > born', which I link to NEC *ts'än?V 'new'.

                              The roots *kenh1- and *g^enh1- have similar shapes. That is all. There is no basis for connecting them etymologically.

                              Those of us open to long-range connections, but unable to assess proposed links to NEC roots, would benefit if you provided some basics in your Vasco-Caucasian Files. One would like to see the reflexes in the individual languages. At the minimum, one would like to be able to exclude borrowings into NEC from Gothic, Ossetic, and the like.

                              > > > But IMHO your semantical proposal (that is, deriving 'dog' from
                              > 'small
                              > > > animal') is good, in despite there's no IE etymology for this word.
                              > >
                              > > That is not "my" proposal, and it has an obvious parallel
                              > >
                              > I don't think "obvious" would be right here. I can't see any near
                              > relationship between canis and catulus, nor I don't think they derive
                              > from the forementioned root.

                              I did not propose an etymological relationship between <canis> and <catulus>. I pointed out the parallel semantic development 'whelp' (generic) > 'puppy' (specific) > 'dog'. In my view this happened in Latin with <canis>, and in Umbrian with the direct cognate of <catulus>. I apologize if my wording made this unclear.

                              > > in Umbrian <katel> 'dog'; Latin <catulus> 'whelp' is less specific.
                              > >
                              > The use of 'whelp' (< 'young animal') applied to dogs is rather common,
                              > e.g. in Galician-Portuguese the femenine form of can, ca~o 'dog' is
                              > cadela 'bitch'. But by no means it has to be taken as a general rule.

                              I think we agree on the parallel, then.

                              DGK
                            • Tavi
                              ... be ... There is no basis for connecting them etymologically. ... Of course not inside of the mainstream framework, but possibly as parallel external
                              Message 14 of 14 , Feb 21, 2012
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                                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > > To me, it looks like a "cousin" of *g´enh1- 'to bear a child; to be
                                > > born', which I link to NEC *ts'än?V 'new'.
                                >
                                > The roots *kenh1- and *g^enh1- have similar shapes. That is all. There is no basis for connecting them etymologically.
                                >
                                Of course not inside of the mainstream framework, but possibly as parallel external loanwords.

                                > Those of us open to long-range connections, but unable to assess proposed links to NEC roots, would benefit if you provided some basics in your Vasco-Caucasian Files. One would like to see the reflexes in the individual languages. At the minimum, one would like to be able to exclude borrowings into NEC from Gothic, Ossetic, and the like.
                                >
                                As a starter, you could review this old article (in Russian) by Sergei Starostin where he lists a series of presumed Vasco-Caucasian loanwords into PIE, including the forementioned *g´enh1-.

                                It also looks like that Starostin's PNC (or rather Proto-NEC, as he lumped NEC and NWC into NC) looks a like a much older entity than commonly thought, going back to early Neolithic or even Mesolithic. Of course, among Starostin's etymologies there're also some IE (usually Ossetian) loanwords, but they're quite few in number and easily identifiable.
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