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what is the PIE root for Latin fascia

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  • alexandru_mg3
    Is not quite clear for me what is the PIE root of Latin fascia Is bHedHh2- to press, to bend (Pok.113-4) *bHodHh2-sk-eh2 ? I have some doubts on -dHsk-
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 4 4:49 AM
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      Is not quite clear for me what is the PIE root of Latin fascia

      Is bHedHh2- 'to press, to bend' (Pok.113-4) > *bHodHh2-sk-eh2 ?

      I have some doubts on -dHsk- > -sk- ...

      Thanks for any help,
      Marius
    • Brian M. Scott
      At 7:49:46 AM on Saturday, April 4, 2009, alexandru_mg3 ... Try Pokorny, p.111: *bHasko- bundle, heap . So also in Watkins. Brian
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 4 7:35 AM
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        At 7:49:46 AM on Saturday, April 4, 2009, alexandru_mg3
        wrote:

        > Is not quite clear for me what is the PIE root of Latin
        > fascia

        > Is bHedHh2- 'to press, to bend' (Pok.113-4) >
        > *bHodHh2-sk-eh2 ?

        Try Pokorny, p.111: *bHasko- 'bundle, heap'. So also in
        Watkins.

        Brian
      • alexandru_mg3
        ... It cannot be bHasko- if the Latin words fascia, fascis are cognates with Alb. bashkë~Rum. baskǎ) bundle of fleece Alb. bashkë [adv.] together that
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 4 8:28 AM
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          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@...> wrote:
          >
          > At 7:49:46 AM on Saturday, April 4, 2009, alexandru_mg3
          > wrote:
          >
          > > Is not quite clear for me what is the PIE root of Latin
          > > fascia
          >
          > > Is bHedHh2- 'to press, to bend' (Pok.113-4) >
          > > *bHodHh2-sk-eh2 ?
          >
          > Try Pokorny, p.111: *bHasko- 'bundle, heap'. So also in
          > Watkins.
          >
          > Brian


          It cannot be bHasko- if the Latin words fascia, fascis are cognates
          with
          Alb. bashkë~Rum. baskǎ) 'bundle of fleece'
          Alb. bashkë [adv.] 'together'

          that is very probable

          due to the fact the Albanian intervocalic -sk- > -h-

          So it contains a cluster -Csk-

          Marius
        • tgpedersen
          ... Hm. More from Uralisches etymologisches Wörterbuch paks^a knot, lump; outgrowth (on trees) U Finn. pahka knot, lump; callus; hump ( Lapp. N bak ke
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 4 12:35 PM
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            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@> wrote:
            > >
            > > At 7:49:46 AM on Saturday, April 4, 2009, alexandru_mg3
            > > wrote:
            > >
            > > > Is not quite clear for me what is the PIE root of Latin
            > > > fascia
            > >
            > > > Is bHedHh2- 'to press, to bend' (Pok.113-4) >
            > > > *bHodHh2-sk-eh2 ?
            > >
            > > Try Pokorny, p.111: *bHasko- 'bundle, heap'. So also in
            > > Watkins.
            > >
            > > Brian
            >
            >
            > It cannot be bHasko- if the Latin words fascia, fascis are cognates
            > with
            > Alb. bashkë~Rum. baskǎ) 'bundle of fleece'
            > Alb. bashkë [adv.] 'together'
            >
            > that is very probable
            > due to the fact the Albanian intervocalic -sk- > -h-
            > So it contains a cluster -Csk-


            Hm. More from Uralisches etymologisches Wörterbuch

            'paks^a 'knot, lump; outgrowth (on trees)' U
            Finn. pahka 'knot, lump; callus; hump'
            (> Lapp. N bak'ke -kk- 'excrescence on birch or fir-tree',
            L pahkke: 'knot, lump, burl (on trees)',
            K T pahke 'outgrowth, burl');
            Est. pahk (Gen. paha) 'lump, callus, burl in tree' |

            Mord.
            E paks^ke,
            M paks^, paks^kä 'tuft (of hairs, hay), feather crest (of a bird), lump' ||

            Sam.
            Selk. (Donn.: MSFOu. 49: 142)
            TaU påkte 'birth mark',
            C^a. paqte (rare);
            Kam. påktå, båkta 'birch burl, burly wood, lump'.

            In the Baltic Fennic languages a metathesis *ks^ > *s^k > hk took place. As for the sense of the Mord. word cf. hung. csomó 'knot' ~ 'bundle'.

            Onomat.
            '

            On the semantic range: This sounds like low forest technology. Willow reacts to being cut back as it does with certain infections: by setting new shoots; this is used by those who harvest it for rods.

            Interestingly, it is not documented in Hungarian (where it would have f- anyway), so that can't be where Albanian and Romanian got it from.

            Cf. this improved version of Pokorny:
            http://dnghu.org/indoeuropean.html

            'Root / lemma: bhasko- (*bhedh-sko) "bundle, heap"
            Note:

            Root / lemma: bhasko- : "bundle, heap" is a truncated formation of an older root *bhedh-sko from which derived both
            Root / lemma: bhedh-2 : "to bow, bend" and
            Root / lemma: bhasko- : "bundle, heap" (see below).
            The alledged root *bhedh-sko derived from bhegh- [common illyr. -gh- > -dh- phonetic mutation].

            Material:
            Maked.
            báskioi desmoi phrugáno:n and
            baskeutai phaskídes (these genuine gr. vowel form), agkálai Hes.;
            perhaps here gr. phásko:los "leather sack";

            lat. fascia "bandage, band, girdle, girth, strap, land stripe", fascis "alliance, bundle, parcel; the fasces with excellent hatchet as a token of the imperious power";

            Maybe alb.
            bashkë "together, bound",
            bashkonj "put together, unite",
            bashkë "fleece (a bundle of wool)".

            Note:
            Alb. proves that from an early root
            *bhegh- [common illyr. -gh- > -dh- phonetic mutation]
            derived Root / lemma: bhedh-2 : "to bow, bend" and
            Root / lemma: bhadh-sko- : "bundle, heap" (see below).

            mir. basc "collar, neckband",
            abrit. bascauda "brazen rinsing boiler" (perhaps originally an earthen and burnt vessel formed about a twisted skeleton good as basket),
            cymr. baich "burden, load",
            mbret. bech, nbret. beac'h id.;
            gallo-rom. *ambi-bascia "load",
            alyonn. ambaissi "kneader for the sheaves" (Jud Rom. 47, 481 ff.).
            '

            If -sk- is from metathesis of *-ks-, there is no need to assume an extra consonant for protection as in *-Csk-


            My money is on either

            1) an extinct Baltic Fennic language central enough in Europe that the above languages could borrow from it, or

            2) some substrate language to IE and Uralic

            The third possibility, of a loan from IE to Uralic seems out of the question, since the word is attested all the way to Samoyedic (but then the word, being a 'container' word, might not have been subject to such restrictions, cf Russian 'kontejner'.



            Torsten
          • alexandru_mg3
            ... For Latin fascis, fascia Schrijver reconstructs *bHask-yo For me is not Ok. Marius
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 4 6:37 PM
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              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@> wrote:
              > >
              > > At 7:49:46 AM on Saturday, April 4, 2009, alexandru_mg3
              > > wrote:
              > >
              > > > Is not quite clear for me what is the PIE root of Latin
              > > > fascia
              > >
              > > > Is bHedHh2- 'to press, to bend' (Pok.113-4) >
              > > > *bHodHh2-sk-eh2 ?
              > >
              > > Try Pokorny, p.111: *bHasko- 'bundle, heap'. So also in
              > > Watkins.
              > >
              > > Brian
              >
              >
              > It cannot be bHasko- if the Latin words fascia, fascis are cognates
              > with
              > Alb. bashkë~Rum. baskǎ) 'bundle of fleece'
              > Alb. bashkë [adv.] 'together'
              >
              > that is very probable
              >
              > due to the fact the Albanian intervocalic -sk- > -h-
              >
              > So it contains a cluster -Csk-
              >
              > Marius


              For Latin fascis, fascia Schrijver reconstructs *bHask-yo

              For me is not Ok.

              Marius
            • tgpedersen
              ... Where? ... Why? Torsten
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 5 12:51 AM
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                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@> wrote:
                > >
                > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > At 7:49:46 AM on Saturday, April 4, 2009, alexandru_mg3
                > > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > > Is not quite clear for me what is the PIE root of Latin
                > > > > fascia
                > > >
                > > > > Is bHedHh2- 'to press, to bend' (Pok.113-4) >
                > > > > *bHodHh2-sk-eh2 ?
                > > >
                > > > Try Pokorny, p.111: *bHasko- 'bundle, heap'. So also in
                > > > Watkins.
                > > >
                > > > Brian
                > >
                > > It cannot be bHasko- if the Latin words fascia, fascis are
                > > cognates with
                > > Alb. bashkë~Rum. baskǎ) 'bundle of fleece'
                > > Alb. bashkë [adv.] 'together'
                > > that is very probable
                > > due to the fact the Albanian intervocalic -sk- > -h-
                > > So it contains a cluster -Csk-
                > >
                > > Marius
                >
                >
                > For Latin fascis, fascia Schrijver reconstructs *bHask-yo

                Where?

                > For me is not Ok.

                Why?


                Torsten
              • alexandru_mg3
                ... The Reflexes Of The Proto-indo-european Laryngeals In Latin ... I wrote before. It cannot be bHasko- if the Latin words fascia, fascis are cognates with
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 5 5:19 AM
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                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

                  > > For Latin fascis, fascia Schrijver reconstructs *bHask-yo
                  >
                  > Where?
                  The Reflexes Of The Proto-indo-european Laryngeals In Latin

                  > > For me is not Ok.
                  >
                  > Why?

                  I wrote before.

                  It cannot be bHasko- if the Latin words fascia, fascis are
                  cognates with Alb. bashkë due to the fact the PAlbanian intervocalic -sk- > -h-


                  Marius
                • tgpedersen
                  ... Here s a proposal: Pre-IE, pre-Uralic ar-/ur- language *bhak-sk-, related to the bak- in http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/48817
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 5 1:20 PM
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                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
                    >
                    > > > For Latin fascis, fascia Schrijver reconstructs *bHask-yo
                    > >
                    > > Where?
                    > The Reflexes Of The Proto-indo-european Laryngeals In Latin
                    >
                    > > > For me is not Ok.
                    > >
                    > > Why?
                    >
                    > I wrote before.
                    > It cannot be bHasko- if the Latin words fascia, fascis are
                    > cognates with Alb. bashkë due to the fact the PAlbanian
                    > intervocalic -sk- > -h-

                    Here's a proposal:
                    Pre-IE, pre-Uralic ar-/ur- language *bhak-sk-, related to the bak- in
                    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/48817
                    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/48982
                    (and also perhaps this one?)
                    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/16274
                    BTW I just uploaded the English translation of Kuhn's review of Krahe's 'Unsere älteste Flussnamen", in which he first outlines his 'second Old Europe', that of the ar-/ur- language, mostly attested in place names, but also in appellatives like *akW-/*ap-/*up-.

                    As to the formation, cf. ON (de Vries):
                    væzka f. "humidity, fluid" (< Proto-Norse *wa:tisko:n),
                    No. væska,
                    Sw. vätska, ...
                    Da. vædske.
                    — cf. vátr ["humid, wet"].
                    '
                    (More likely < *we:t-sk-, cf. væta "humidity, fluid" with no umlaut-causing -i-)

                    Since I am postulating that this *bhak-sk- belongs to the ar-/ur- language I may per hypothesis search for cognates of the form *bhuk-sk-. Voilà:

                    DEO:
                    'busk c.;
                    ODa., No. id., No.Dial. also in the sense 'seedling, tuft',
                    sv. buske,
                    oldsax. -busk,
                    mnty. busch, busk,
                    holl. bosch 'forest',
                    OHG busc, Germ. Busch 'bush, tuft',
                    ME busch, busk, Eng. bush;
                    from Germ. *busk-, which is assumed loaned to MLat. as buscus, boscus, whence French bois, Ital. bosco 'forest'.
                    The word has been suspected of being un-Germanic (loaned from Gall.) and un-Nordic (ie. we loaned it from the Germans). In Norway and Sweden it is now because of the distribution in the dialects considered domestic. But in Denmark the suspicion of a loan from MLG persists. ODa. uses, like Vestjysk the word 'træ' in the sense 'bush'.
                    ...
                    '
                    And, for good measure, in
                    Vergleichendes Wörterbuch der Jenissej-Sprachen
                    'bÓn,gul/bÓn,ul (n, Pl. bÓn,gul&n,)
                    1) 'knot'; 2) 'bundle';
                    sket. bÓn,ul, Pl. bÓn,ulan,;
                    jug. bÓn,gï´l, Pl. bÓn,gïlïn, ds.; 
                    PJ (S) *bon,gul (~w-) id.; an old composite, the components of which so far haven't been identified; B 1957 < samOstj. mûkol id. etc.'

                    which probably means loan here too.

                    And once more ON (de Vries):
                    'bunki m. 'ship's cargo'
                    (lit. the plank deck on which the ship cargo rests);
                    NIcel. Faroe. bunki,
                    NNo. Sw. bunke 'shipload',
                    NDa. bunke 'heap'.
                    - > Shetl. bunks, bonks 'heap of clothes' (Jakobsen 83);
                    -> Saami S. bun,n,ge 'ship with bowsprit' (Qvigstad 119);
                    -> MLG bonik, bonk 'cargo, hold' (Hesselman NTU 7, 1935, 26;
                    although earlier the reverse was assumed).
                    — OFr. bunka, MDu. bonke 'bone', NDu. bonk 'lump'.
                    — cf. bingr and buna.'

                    and on and on ...


                    Torsten
                  • Rick McCallister
                    ... From: tgpedersen Subject: Re: [tied] what is the PIE root for Latin fascia To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 5,
                    Message 9 of 9 , Apr 5 4:45 PM
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                      --- On Sun, 4/5/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

                      From: tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...>
                      Subject: Re: [tied] what is the PIE root for Latin fascia
                      To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 4:20 PM

                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroup s.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@ ...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroup s.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@ > wrote:
                      >
                      > > > For Latin fascis, fascia Schrijver reconstructs *bHask-yo
                      > >
                      > > Where?
                      > The Reflexes Of The Proto-indo-european Laryngeals In Latin
                      >
                      > > > For me is not Ok.
                      > >
                      > > Why?
                      >
                      > I wrote before.
                      > It cannot be bHasko- if the Latin words fascia, fascis are
                      > cognates with Alb. bashkë due to the fact the PAlbanian
                      > intervocalic -sk- > -h-

                      Here's a proposal:
                      Pre-IE, pre-Uralic ar-/ur- language *bhak-sk-, related to the bak- in
                      http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/48817
                      http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/48982
                      (and also perhaps this one?)
                      http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ cybalist/ message/16274
                      BTW I just uploaded the English translation of Kuhn's review of Krahe's 'Unsere älteste Flussnamen", in which he first outlines his 'second Old Europe', that of the ar-/ur- language, mostly attested in place names, but also in appellatives like *akW-/*ap-/* up-.

                      As to the formation, cf. ON (de Vries):
                      væzka f. "humidity, fluid" (< Proto-Norse *wa:tisko:n) ,
                      No. væska,
                      Sw. vätska, ...
                      Da. vædske.
                      — cf. vátr ["humid, wet"].
                      '
                      (More likely < *we:t-sk-, cf. væta "humidity, fluid" with no umlaut-causing -i-)

                      Since I am postulating that this *bhak-sk- belongs to the ar-/ur- language I may per hypothesis search for cognates of the form *bhuk-sk-. Voilà:

                      DEO:
                      'busk c.;
                      ODa., No. id., No.Dial. also in the sense 'seedling, tuft',
                      sv. buske,
                      oldsax. -busk,
                      mnty. busch, busk,
                      holl. bosch 'forest',
                      OHG busc, Germ. Busch 'bush, tuft',
                      ME busch, busk, Eng. bush;
                      from Germ. *busk-, which is assumed loaned to MLat. as buscus, boscus, whence French bois, Ital. bosco 'forest'.
                      The word has been suspected of being un-Germanic (loaned from Gall.) and un-Nordic (ie. we loaned it from the Germans). In Norway and Sweden it is now because of the distribution in the dialects considered domestic. But in Denmark the suspicion of a loan from MLG persists. ODa. uses, like Vestjysk the word 'træ' in the sense 'bush'.
                      ...
                      '
                      And, for good measure, in
                      Vergleichendes Wörterbuch der Jenissej-Sprachen
                      'bÓn,gul/bÓn,ul (n, Pl. bÓn,gul&n,)
                      1) 'knot'; 2) 'bundle';
                      sket. bÓn,ul, Pl. bÓn,ulan,;
                      jug. bÓn,gï´l, Pl. bÓn,gïlïn, ds.; &#8301;
                      PJ (S) *bon,gul (~w-) id.; an old composite, the components of which so far haven't been identified; B 1957 < samOstj. mûkol id. etc.'

                      which probably means loan here too.

                      And once more ON (de Vries):
                      'bunki m. 'ship's cargo'
                      (lit. the plank deck on which the ship cargo rests);
                      NIcel. Faroe. bunki,
                      NNo. Sw. bunke 'shipload',
                      NDa. bunke 'heap'.
                      - > Shetl. bunks, bonks 'heap of clothes' (Jakobsen 83);
                      -> Saami S. bun,n,ge 'ship with bowsprit' (Qvigstad 119);
                      -> MLG bonik, bonk 'cargo, hold' (Hesselman NTU 7, 1935, 26;
                      although earlier the reverse was assumed).
                      — OFr. bunka, MDu. bonke 'bone', NDu. bonk 'lump'.
                      — cf. bingr and buna.'

                      and on and on ...

                      Torsten

                      and also *bunn-/*munn- the Celtic roots of Spanish muñeca, Portuguese boneca





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