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Re: [tied] Re: American Dutch dialects

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  • Rick McCallister
    ... I ve often wondered if the aberrant pronunciation of with a /t/ sprang from Midwestern Germans who learned English from hyper-corrective
    Message 1 of 195 , Feb 28, 2009
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      --- On Sat, 2/28/09, Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@...> wrote:

      > From: Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@...>
      > Subject: [tied] Re: American Dutch dialects
      > To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Saturday, February 28, 2009, 9:47 PM
      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen"
      > <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > > The English preservation of /w/ is no more
      > unnatural than the Danish
      > > > preservation of /sk/, which changed in all other
      > Germanic languages
      > > > at least before front vowels, and in some before
      > all vowels.
      > >
      > > The idea that Danish, unless Swedish and Norwegian,
      > preserved /k/ and
      > > /sk/ before front vowels is a common misconception,
      > although it's true
      > > as a description of the language today. A large number
      > of the dialects
      > > did in fact palatalize those, today Vendsysselsk and
      > Bornholmsk, the
      > > two most peripheral dialects, still do, and even in
      > spelling this was
      > > marked as (s)kj-/(s)ki-. Danish *depalatalized*, most
      > likely under
      > > German influence; those spellings became obsolete
      > around 1900. My
      > > favorite example is 'sky' /skü?/
      > "aspic" < French 'jus' /3ü/ > 19th
      > > cent. Da. /sjü/, falsely understood as 'sky'
      > dial. /sjü?/, now /skü/,
      > > and depalatalized. Another one is 1900 cent. colloq.
      > 'skersant'
      > > "sergeant", falsely depalatalized from
      > /sjersjant/,
      > >
      > > Torsten
      > >
      >
      > Well, like Rick says about the Almodovar script, I really
      > put my foot
      > in my mouth on that one. The depalatalization you talk
      > about which
      > changed former /sjy/ to /sky/ on the surface seems
      > completely
      > artificial, although you say it's because of a regular
      > equation of
      > dialectal /sj/ = standard(?) /sk/.
      >
      > Andrew

      I've often wondered if the aberrant pronunciation of <often> with a /t/ sprang from Midwestern Germans who learned English from hyper-corrective schoolmarms.
    • tgpedersen
      ... Yes, you probably imagine that. How would you back up that belief? And if so, then General American, coming from the country, should lately have exerted a
      Message 195 of 195 , Mar 8, 2009
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- On Sun, 3/8/09, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
        >
        > > From: tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...>
        > > Subject: [tied] Re: American Dutch dialects
        > > To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
        > > Date: Sunday, March 8, 2009, 4:49 AM
        > > > > > They would have studied in the capital BUT
        > > there were no real
        > > > > > doctors where my family lived. You had to go
        > > to the capital by
        > > > > > car or train.
        > > > >
        > > > > He either had direct or indirect contact with NYC and
        > > > > spoke some predecessor of General American, or he did
        > > > > neither. You can't have it both ways.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Torsten
        > > >
        > > > The problem is that General American English sounds nothing
        > > > like NYC English. I don't think you could persuade anyone
        > > > except a die-hard Yankees fan otherwise.
        > >
        > > No, the problem is you think today's NYC English after
        > > the massive immigration of the late 19th - early 20th
        > > century is identical to that of the early 19th century.
        >
        > I imgagine that earlier NYC was even farther removed from General
        > American English.

        Yes, you probably imagine that. How would you back up that belief?
        And if so, then General American, coming from the country, should lately have exerted a major influence on the NYC dialect. How likely do you find that idea?


        > Keep in mind that NYC was NOT the major immigrant port until c.
        > 1830 or so.

        That's right. And the dialects that came first are naturally those you find furthest out on the country. And those are not General American.


        Torsten
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