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Re: [tied] Re: Sos-

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  • Arnaud Fournet
    ... ======= Sorry for the previous mail I clicked on the wrong button. Well, what s the problem with serving fish-roe ? I ve never eaten fish-roe alone, but
    Message 1 of 274 , Feb 1, 2009
      >
      >> And I see no problem in eating any fish roe,
      >> it's fish bowels that are junk, not fish roe.
      >>
      >> A.
      >
      > That's because you are a crypto-Belg. Would you consider serving that
      > to a real Frenchman?
      > >
      > Torsten
      >
      =======

      Sorry for the previous mail
      I clicked on the wrong button.

      Well, what's the problem with serving fish-roe ?
      I've never eaten fish-roe alone, but always with fish-meat at the same time.
      And by the way, there are two kinds of fish-roe : male "laitance" and female
      "oeufs".
      I suppose if there are two words, people have never been afraid of eating
      both.
      Fish-bowel is "breule" (< OF brueille) and bowel-eater is indeed an insult
      in the local vernacular, even though a very picturesque one.
      In other words, I don't believe in your theory that fish-roe is "inferior
      food".

      By the way, do the Germanic words you mentioned describe hard roe or soft
      roe ?

      Arnaud
    • dgkilday57
      ... Only if you practise an extreme form of cherry-picking. In fact, Sanskrit very strongly supports *k^weit-. Suffice it to mention the Vedic adjectives
      Message 274 of 274 , Feb 19, 2014



        ---In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, <gpiotr@...> wrote:

        On 2014-02-15 04:59, dgkilday57@... wrote:

        > As for Gmc. *xWi:taz 'white', Skt. _s'vindate_ 'shines' shows that the
        > root in question can be *k^weid-.

        Only if you practise an extreme form of cherry-picking. In fact,
        Sanskrit very strongly supports *k^weit-. Suffice it to mention the
        Vedic adjectives _s'vítna-_, _s'vitrá-_, _s'vetá-_, _s'vetyá_ 'white,
        light', verbs like the aorist _as'vait_, compounds like _su:rya-s'vít-_
        'as bright as the sun', etc. Nearly all of them occur already in the
        Rigveda. They are supported by plenty of cognates in Iranian and
        Balto-Slavic. By contrast, _s'vindate_ is a late (Dhatupatha) dictionary
        root. Its only tangible attestation is the isolated aberrant perfect
        _s'is'vinde_ (in a text composed in the 7th c. CE!). The _-nd-_ may well
        be a Middle Indic development.

        Piotr

         

         

        Ouch!  In the face of this evidence, *k^weid- must be discarded as a phantom root.  Since only *k^weit- is securely attested in Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic (including loans from some centum language into Slavic), it should also be assumed for Germanic.

         

        I am not so quick to posit an /e/-grade vr.ddhi *k^weit-nó- as the source of Gmc. *xWi:t(t)a-.  The zero-grade *k^wit-nó- was evidently inherited as *xWitta- 'white' in OEFris _hwitt_, MLG/MD _wit(t)_, etc., and /o/-grade *k^woit-nó- as *xWaitta- underlying *xWait(t)ja- 'wheat'.  But with *xWitt- and *xWaitt- in circulation in PGmc, *xWi:tt- may have been created by analogy with inherited ablaut-sets, such as those provided by Class I strong verbs.  Speakers of most dialects may have felt that */i:/ was more appropriate than */i/ for an adjective now meaning 'inherently or intrinsically albescent' rather than the passive sense 'blanched, bleached, whitened' or whatever *k^wit-nó- originally denoted.  In this hypothesis, the considerable number of passive participles and deverbatives of Class I verbs containing */i/ would have given a phonesthemic quality of passivity to adjectives with this root-vowel at the PGmc stage under consideration.

         

        Another possibility is interference with *k^weit- by the semantically close *sweid-, found in OE _switol_ 'clear, evident' (not cited by Pokorny under *sweid-(1), IEW 1042, but given by Fraenkel, LitEW s.v. _svidé.ti_).  This root could have yielded Gmc. *switt- and *swaitt- by Kluge's Law beside its /e/-grade *swi:t-, providing an analogical template to form *xWi:t- from *xWitt- and *xWaitt-.  Reciprocal interference of *k^weit- upon *sweid- would explain Pokorny's isolated *sweit-, listed under *sweid-(1) but having causative usage ('sengen, brennen' against 'glänzen, schimmern'), and confined to Germanic.

         

        Incidentally, it seems quite plausible that Pokorny's *sweid-(2) 'schwitzen' (IEW 1043) developed from *sweid-(1) as a euphemism, independently in several branches of IE.  "Women glisten, men perspire, poor people sweat."

         

        Returning now to 'deep', a very good reason to accept *dHeub- as the root is the inclusion of the 'dimple' group:  OHG _tumphilo_, MHG _tümpfel_, etc. 'deep place in flowing or standing water, abyss', ME _dympull_ 'depression on a smooth surface, dimple', Du. _dompelen_ 'to plunge, dive, dip'.  If *dHeub- is the root, these are simply derivatives of the inherited nasalized zero-grade *dHumb-.  But if *dHeubH- is the root, not only must Gmc. *deup(p)a- be produced by an /e/-grade vr.ddhi with *-nó- or some unspecified analogical process(es), but then this result must become fodder for another analogical process which treats it as a primary full grade and inserts a nasal into the zero-grade.  Not that such things could never happen, but the scenario of original *dHeub- and *dHumb- is more straightforward.

         

        Of course, if there are any PIE */b/-denialists in this group, they will simply say there is no PIE */b/.  The only basis I know of for completely ousting */b/ from PIE is glottalic theory, and that theory is shot down by pre-Grimm's Law loans from Gaulish into Germanic.  I cannot explain why */b/ should be the rarest PIE consonant, but some consonant had to be, and it happens to be */b/.

         

        DGK


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