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  • tgpedersen
    Tadeusz Lehr-Spl/awin´ski: O pochodzeniu i praojczyz´nie Sl/owian p. 84 6. Sosa, Sosno itp. 1. Sosa pd. Muszy w pow. wil/komierskim w Kowien´szczyz´nie.
    Message 1 of 274 , Jan 25, 2009
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      Tadeusz Lehr-Spl/awin´ski:
      O pochodzeniu i praojczyz´nie Sl/owian
      p. 84
      '6. Sosa, Sosno itp.
      1. Sosa pd. Muszy w pow. wil/komierskim w Kowien´szczyz´nie.
      2. Sosie jezioro w pow. wilen´skim kol/o Dubinki. 3. Sosno-
      jezioro ws´ród bagien mie,dzy Prypecia, a jej odnoga, zwana, Prostyrn´
      w pow. pin´skim na Polesiu.
      4. Sosno jezioro w pow. horodeckim b. gub. witebskiej.
      5. Sosno dwa jeziora w pow. brodnickim na Pomorzu: jedno tworzy
      cze,s´c´ biegu rz. Gl/e,boczka ld. Drwe,cy, drugie cze,s´c´ biegu rz.
      Niskie Brodno pd. Drwe,cy.

      Nazwy te ze wzgle,dów sl/owotwórczych nie dadza, sie, w z.aden sposób
      powia,zac´ z rdzeniem sl/ów. zawartym w wyrazie sosna,
      najprawdopodobniej wie,c polegaja, na rdzeniu, który wyste,puje w
      wyrazach fin´skich, jak sose soseen, soska, sohja 'bl/oto jesienne,
      brud',sahi 'kal/uz.a, bród' itp. (181).

      "6. Sosa, Sosno etc.
      1. Sosa right trib. to Muszyna in Wil/komierski pow. Kowien´szczyl/nie.
      2. Sosie lake in Wilen´ski(?) pow. by Dubinka.
      3. Sosno lake amid swamps between Pripet and its branch called
      Postyrn´ in Pin´sk pow. in Polesie.
      4. Sosno lake in Horod(?) pow. b. Witebsk gub..
      5. Sosno two lakes in Brodni(?) pow. in Pomerania : one forms part of
      the course of the river Gl/e,boczka left trib. to Drwe,ca, the other
      part of the course of the river Niskie Brodno, right trib. to Drwe,ca.
      [the translation machine says 'Sequoia' and 'Undersized Beard'; I
      think I'll stay with 'Sosno' and 'Niskie Brodno']

      These names from a morphological perspective can in no way be related
      to the Slavic root contained in the word sosna "pine", but are very
      likely based on the root which appears in Finnish words such as sose
      soseen, soska, sohja 'autumn swamp, dirt', sahi 'muck, ford' etc. (181)."

      'sose (sase) 'Schneebrei; schwammig, porös (Knochen, Baum)' FW
      ?[Finn. sasu 'Wange; sprödes Hornmark; (Hakulinen: StudFenn. 1/2: 150)
      poröser Knochen (z.B. im Geweih), das weiche Innere des Rentier- od.
      Elchgeweihs', sose, sosu 'Brei, Mus, Matsch, Schneebrei'
      (> lapp. N sasu 'poronsarven huokoinen sisus; das poröse Innere des
      est. sasi (Gen. sase), sasu 'Wange; Schläfe', (SKES) sask (Gen. sasu)
      'poskipää; Backenknochen' |
      lapp. N suossâ -s-, suosse -s- 'bay ice (in river and lake)',
      L suossa 'der innere, poröse Teil der Horn-, Geweihmasse; schwaches,
      poröses, schwammiges Eis (im Frühjahr)',
      K (987) T si:ss 'Eisbrei, Eismatsch', (T. I. Itk., WbKKlp 535)
      Kld. su:ss(A),
      Ko. Not. suoss(A) 'id. (im Wasser),
      (Kld. auch) dünne Eiskruste'] |

      ?[mord. (s-Laute 26)
      M suz 'kleiner vertrockneter Riß in der Rinde eines Laubbaumes',
      suzu 'schroff, rauh, uneben, holperig (z.B. vom Eis, wenn mit
      Schneebrei gemischtes Wasser auf dem Eis friert)' |

      KB B s^uz^, (Beke: FUF 22:95)
      UP suz(&^), suz^ 'das Poröse im Knochen, im Holz usw. (KB),
      knochenharter Knorpel; poröser Knochen, der nicht eßbar ist (B),
      zu faulen beginnend, schwammig (vom Baum) (U P)'].

      Finn., est. u und finn. e (<*k) sind Ableitungssuffixe.
      Die Vokalentsprechung ist unregelmäßig. Für finn. sose, sosu, lapp.
      suossâ sowie das Mord. und Tscher. ist *o, für finn. sasu und lapp.
      suosse (< *sasa) dagegen *a anzusetzen.
      Im Finn. und Est. dürfte ein Bedeutungswandel 'poröser
      Knochen'->'Backenknochen, Wange, Schläfe' eingetreten sein.
      In der FP Grundsprache dürfte das Wort auch eine palatale Variante
      gehabt haben (s. *säsV 'weich, porös (Knochen, Knorpel); Schneebrei,
      Knochenmark' FP).'

      säsV 'weich, porös (Knochen, Knorpel); Knochenmark, Schneebrei' FP
      Finn. säsy 'Beinmark';
      est. säsi, säsü 'Mark, Hirn' |

      wotj. (URS).suzi 'dresva', nir-suzi 'posovoj xrasjtj'(nir 'Nase') |

      SM Pec^. sez mjakaja c^astI gubc^agoj kosti, kostnyj mozI (SM),
      mokryj, zernistyj sneg (Pec^.)',
      I sez 'Saft im Knorpelknochen',
      P soza: pu '(wachsender od. umgefallener) Baum, der rötlich ist und
      also zu vermorschen beginnt',
      PO so.z 'mjakaja c^astI kosti',
      SM sez- 'srastatIsja, srastisI (o perelomlennoj kosti)'.

      Finn. und est. y (ü) sind Ableitungssuffixe.
      Wotj. u ~ syrj. e, o. gehen auf urperm. *o. (< FP *ä) zurück.
      In der FW Grundsprache dürfte das Wort eine velare Variante gehabt
      haben (s. *sose (*sase) 'Schneebrei; schwammig, porös ...' FW).
      Literatur s. unter *sose (*sase) 'Schneebrei; schwammig, porös . ..' FW.'

      Note the vowel alternations/ablaut a/o and ä/o.

      Sus-å (Sjælland again)
      No satisfying Germanic etymology.

    • dgkilday57
      ... Only if you practise an extreme form of cherry-picking. In fact, Sanskrit very strongly supports *k^weit-. Suffice it to mention the Vedic adjectives
      Message 274 of 274 , Feb 19, 2014
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        ---In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, <gpiotr@...> wrote:

        On 2014-02-15 04:59, dgkilday57@... wrote:

        > As for Gmc. *xWi:taz 'white', Skt. _s'vindate_ 'shines' shows that the
        > root in question can be *k^weid-.

        Only if you practise an extreme form of cherry-picking. In fact,
        Sanskrit very strongly supports *k^weit-. Suffice it to mention the
        Vedic adjectives _s'vítna-_, _s'vitrá-_, _s'vetá-_, _s'vetyá_ 'white,
        light', verbs like the aorist _as'vait_, compounds like _su:rya-s'vít-_
        'as bright as the sun', etc. Nearly all of them occur already in the
        Rigveda. They are supported by plenty of cognates in Iranian and
        Balto-Slavic. By contrast, _s'vindate_ is a late (Dhatupatha) dictionary
        root. Its only tangible attestation is the isolated aberrant perfect
        _s'is'vinde_ (in a text composed in the 7th c. CE!). The _-nd-_ may well
        be a Middle Indic development.




        Ouch!  In the face of this evidence, *k^weid- must be discarded as a phantom root.  Since only *k^weit- is securely attested in Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic (including loans from some centum language into Slavic), it should also be assumed for Germanic.


        I am not so quick to posit an /e/-grade vr.ddhi *k^weit-nó- as the source of Gmc. *xWi:t(t)a-.  The zero-grade *k^wit-nó- was evidently inherited as *xWitta- 'white' in OEFris _hwitt_, MLG/MD _wit(t)_, etc., and /o/-grade *k^woit-nó- as *xWaitta- underlying *xWait(t)ja- 'wheat'.  But with *xWitt- and *xWaitt- in circulation in PGmc, *xWi:tt- may have been created by analogy with inherited ablaut-sets, such as those provided by Class I strong verbs.  Speakers of most dialects may have felt that */i:/ was more appropriate than */i/ for an adjective now meaning 'inherently or intrinsically albescent' rather than the passive sense 'blanched, bleached, whitened' or whatever *k^wit-nó- originally denoted.  In this hypothesis, the considerable number of passive participles and deverbatives of Class I verbs containing */i/ would have given a phonesthemic quality of passivity to adjectives with this root-vowel at the PGmc stage under consideration.


        Another possibility is interference with *k^weit- by the semantically close *sweid-, found in OE _switol_ 'clear, evident' (not cited by Pokorny under *sweid-(1), IEW 1042, but given by Fraenkel, LitEW s.v. _svidé.ti_).  This root could have yielded Gmc. *switt- and *swaitt- by Kluge's Law beside its /e/-grade *swi:t-, providing an analogical template to form *xWi:t- from *xWitt- and *xWaitt-.  Reciprocal interference of *k^weit- upon *sweid- would explain Pokorny's isolated *sweit-, listed under *sweid-(1) but having causative usage ('sengen, brennen' against 'glänzen, schimmern'), and confined to Germanic.


        Incidentally, it seems quite plausible that Pokorny's *sweid-(2) 'schwitzen' (IEW 1043) developed from *sweid-(1) as a euphemism, independently in several branches of IE.  "Women glisten, men perspire, poor people sweat."


        Returning now to 'deep', a very good reason to accept *dHeub- as the root is the inclusion of the 'dimple' group:  OHG _tumphilo_, MHG _tümpfel_, etc. 'deep place in flowing or standing water, abyss', ME _dympull_ 'depression on a smooth surface, dimple', Du. _dompelen_ 'to plunge, dive, dip'.  If *dHeub- is the root, these are simply derivatives of the inherited nasalized zero-grade *dHumb-.  But if *dHeubH- is the root, not only must Gmc. *deup(p)a- be produced by an /e/-grade vr.ddhi with *-nó- or some unspecified analogical process(es), but then this result must become fodder for another analogical process which treats it as a primary full grade and inserts a nasal into the zero-grade.  Not that such things could never happen, but the scenario of original *dHeub- and *dHumb- is more straightforward.


        Of course, if there are any PIE */b/-denialists in this group, they will simply say there is no PIE */b/.  The only basis I know of for completely ousting */b/ from PIE is glottalic theory, and that theory is shot down by pre-Grimm's Law loans from Gaulish into Germanic.  I cannot explain why */b/ should be the rarest PIE consonant, but some consonant had to be, and it happens to be */b/.



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