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Re: [tied] Backward Etruscan

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  • Christopher Gwinn
    ... Gee - I asked that question a year ago! I don t even remember writing it, so I definitely don t remember what I was trying to find out. I think I wanted
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 28, 2001
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      > > I was wondering if any of the list members might be able to comment
      > on some of the Etruscan divine names (ex. Tinia - Zeus, Tinas clerar-
      > Dioskouroi, Thevrumines-Minotaur, Turms - Hermes, Uni - Hera,
      > Nethuns - Poseidon, Maris - Ares, Menrva - Athena, Sethlans -
      > Hephaistos, Thesan-Eos, Turan-Aphrodite, Fufluns - Dionysos, Apulu -
      > Apollo).
      > [snip]
      > > -Chris Gwinn
      >
      > Yes, welcome back gLeN
      >
      > Look at the above Etruscan name for Minotaurus: Thevrumines. Weren't
      > you looking for a "backward" composition of Etruscan composite nouns?

      Gee - I asked that question a year ago! I don't even remember writing it, so
      I definitely don't remember what I was trying to find out. I think I wanted
      the etymology of Saturn, Minerva and Mercury (seeing that I have read that
      these Latin names may have been influenced by Etruscan).

      -Chris Gwinn
    • MCLSSAA2@fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk
      ... Where is Nakh spoken, and what sort of language is it? Has any connection been found between Etruscan and the modern Caucasus languages? The Egyptian
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 1, 2001
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        --- In cybalist@y..., erobert52@a... wrote:
        > [Thesan] may have a Caucasian connection. The usual translation is
        > Aurora, dawn, morning. If we accept the analogy aurum/aurora, there
        > is a remarkable similarity to the Nakh word for gold, deshi.

        Where is Nakh spoken, and what sort of language is it?

        Has any connection been found between Etruscan and the modern Caucasus
        languages? The Egyptian inscription describing the Sea Peoples seems
        to say that peoples including the Tursha invaded from Anatolia. Perhas
        they were driven by a drought famine.

        > Funnily enough, Theseus, or These in Etruscan, was searching for the
        >*golden* fleece.

        I thought that it was Iason and the Argonauts who were looking for the
        Golden Freece.

        > Most bizarrely Thalana/Thalna, which d'Aversa describes as the
        > Etruscan deity present during 1. sexual intercourse and 2. birth, is
        > reminiscent of Nakh d.aalan which means both 1. 'to enter' and 2.
        > 'to arrive'.

        Ditto in Greek: the name of the Greek goddess of childbirth
        Eileithyia looks like one of the roots of the Greek heteroclite verb
        {erkhomai, ei^mi, eleusomai, e:luthon, ele:lutha} = "go" (from IE root
        H1-L-Dh ?), compare Latin {liber} = Greek {eleutheros} = "free".

        --- Someone wrote:-
        > ... the Etruscan name for Minotaurus: Thevrumines. Weren't you
        > looking for a "backward" composition of Etruscan composite nouns?

        I tend to use the terms "big-endian" for compounding in Greek or
        German type order, e.g. a cowhouse is a house and not a cow, and
        "little-endian" for the other order. (Those terms are usually used to
        describe the order of bytes in a number in a computer, or the order of
        the components of the part of an email address which is after the @ .)
      • tgpedersen@hotmail.com
        ... Greek Zeus ... it would ... relating it to ... only related ... known to be ... of IE. ... Latin. We re ... along the ... plural ... still don t ...
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 1, 2001
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          --- In cybalist@y..., "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@h...> wrote:
          > Me:
          > >>Dunno about clerar. Are you sure you don't mean /clenar/? The
          >>latter
          > >>means "sons".
          >
          > Chris G:
          > >I likely just mispelled it, seeing that it is translating the
          Greek >"Zeus'
          > >Boys" Dioskouroi.
          >
          > Well, there ya go then.
          >
          > Me:
          > >>Menrva looks like native Etruscan because of the typical -va
          >>suffix,
          > >>which might be used for a collective sense, but I'm not sure what
          it would
          > >>mean.
          >
          > Chris G:
          > >I have seen some try to reconstruct a proto-form, *Menesua,
          relating >it to
          > >the moon and to menstruation.
          >
          > That would be great if Etruscan were an IE language... but it's
          only related
          > to IE at best, not part of it. The Etruscan word for "moon" is
          known to be
          > /tiur/ and I haven't seen any such "moon" word like *menes- outside
          of IE.
          > Plus, *-s- changes to -r- in _Latin_. We're not talking about
          Latin. We're
          > talking about Etruscan. So, we would be best to look for something
          along the
          > lines of preEtruscan *Mener-va instead. This *mener- looks like the
          plural
          > of something and this would go well with the -va suffix... but I
          still don't
          > have a clue as to what it might mean. Good try though.
          >
          > I notice that there are other Etruscan deities starting with /man-/
          that
          > might relate to the etymology of Menrva, like Mania, the goddess of
          the
          > underworld, and Mantus, god of the underworld. As well, there are
          words like
          > /mani/ "the dead". I see a common theme happenin' here. Is it
          possible that
          > *Mener-va originally meant "place of the dead" or "the dead"? Could
          Minerva
          > have been originally the embodiment of the underworld just like
          Canaanite
          > Mot, before being artificially connected with Athena? Just a
          thought.
          >
          > - gLeN
          >
          Here's a nice repository for *man- words:

          http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/man.html

          Feel free to use it.

          Torsten
        • erobert52@aol.com
          In a message dated 01/03/01 09:03:50 GMT Standard Time, ... Nakh is a group of 3 quite closely related languages: Chechen, Ingush and Batsbi, spoken in
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 1, 2001
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            In a message dated 01/03/01 09:03:50 GMT Standard Time,
            MCLSSAA2@... writes:

            > > [Thesan] may have a Caucasian connection. The usual translation is
            > > Aurora, dawn, morning. If we accept the analogy aurum/aurora, there
            > > is a remarkable similarity to the Nakh word for gold, deshi.
            >
            > Where is Nakh spoken, and what sort of language is it?

            Nakh is a group of 3 quite closely related languages: Chechen, Ingush
            and Batsbi, spoken in Chechnya, Ingushetia and adjacent areas of
            Georgia in the Caucasus. To all intents and purposes, it is part of
            the NE Caucasian (or Nakh-Daghestanian) language family, but it is its
            most divergent member.

            > Has any connection been found between Etruscan and the modern Caucasus
            > languages? The Egyptian inscription describing the Sea Peoples seems
            > to say that peoples including the Tursha invaded from Anatolia. Perhas
            > they were driven by a drought famine.

            The most extensive published list of 'isoglosses' is from Vladimir
            Orel and Sergei Starostin: "Etruscan as an East Caucasian language" in
            Vitaly Shevoroshkin's "Proto-Languages and Proto-Cultures", Bochum
            1990. But the idea has a long pedigree.

            This is a list of 60 resemblances between Etruscan words, or Latin
            words believed to be of Etruscan origin, and their reconstruction of
            Proto-East Caucasian. It is not generally accepted, and I too find
            about half of them rather implausible. I have found 40-50 resemblances
            specifically with Nakh which are not mentioned in Orel and Starostin.
            Mine also include morphological patterns. Interestingly, the
            historical ancestors of the Nakh were called the Tushba.

            > > Funnily enough, Theseus, or These in Etruscan, was searching for the
            > >*golden* fleece.
            >
            > I thought that it was Iason and the Argonauts who were looking for the
            > Golden Freece.

            Yes, Theseus was an Argonaut.


            Ed. Robertson
          • João Simões Lopes Filho
            ... From: Glen Gordon To: Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [tied] Backward Etruscan
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 1, 2001
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Glen Gordon <glengordon01@...>
              To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 11:17 AM
              Subject: Re: [tied] Backward Etruscan


              >
              >
              > >Maris - Ares, Maris related to Mavort-, but I dont know to explain.
              >
              > Hmm. Strange. I don't know what Mavort- is supposed to be either and yet,
              by
              > a quick scan, the rest of the information appears to be kosher. Perhaps
              this
              > is merely an idle assumption on the part of the webauthor because of Vedic
              > Marut-. Maybe Mavort- represents a loose preLatin reconstruction. If so,
              > (s)he would have been kind enough to prefix it with an asterisk for the
              > innocent masses. If this is truely a reconstruction, I could think of
              > likelier ones like *Moruts instead. Yet again, I don't know what that's
              > supposed to mean though. Marut- is supposed to have originally meant storm
              > according to one site but then that doesn't jive with the fact that Mars
              was
              > originally a god pertaining to fertility and vegetation.

              Mavort is cited in many Roman Mythology dictionaries as the older form of
              Mars. There was attempts to link it with Marut, claiming a Marut/Mavrt, like
              quattuor/quartus, but I don't believe in this connexion. Mavort <
              *Mag-vort-? < mag "great"?


              >
              > >Turan-Aphrodite, Turan cf. tyrannos "tyrant"
              >
              > That smells of a folk etymology. I wouldn't place significance on that
              > connection. It can't be from /tyrannos/.

              I;m not saying that Turan < Greek tyrannos, but that the two words came from
              a common "Mediterranean" basis meaning "queen or king". So, Turan could be
              the "Queen".

              >
              >
              > - gLeN
              >
              > _________________________________________________________________________
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              >
              >
              >
              >
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              >
              >
            • Glen Gordon
              ... Well, there ya go then. ... That would be great if Etruscan were an IE language... but it s only related to IE at best, not part of it. The Etruscan word
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 1, 2001
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                Me:
                >>Dunno about clerar. Are you sure you don't mean /clenar/? The >>latter
                >>means "sons".

                Chris G:
                >I likely just mispelled it, seeing that it is translating the Greek >"Zeus'
                >Boys" Dioskouroi.

                Well, there ya go then.

                Me:
                >>Menrva looks like native Etruscan because of the typical -va >>suffix,
                >>which might be used for a collective sense, but I'm not sure what it would
                >>mean.

                Chris G:
                >I have seen some try to reconstruct a proto-form, *Menesua, relating >it to
                >the moon and to menstruation.

                That would be great if Etruscan were an IE language... but it's only related
                to IE at best, not part of it. The Etruscan word for "moon" is known to be
                /tiur/ and I haven't seen any such "moon" word like *menes- outside of IE.
                Plus, *-s- changes to -r- in _Latin_. We're not talking about Latin. We're
                talking about Etruscan. So, we would be best to look for something along the
                lines of preEtruscan *Mener-va instead. This *mener- looks like the plural
                of something and this would go well with the -va suffix... but I still don't
                have a clue as to what it might mean. Good try though.

                I notice that there are other Etruscan deities starting with /man-/ that
                might relate to the etymology of Menrva, like Mania, the goddess of the
                underworld, and Mantus, god of the underworld. As well, there are words like
                /mani/ "the dead". I see a common theme happenin' here. Is it possible that
                *Mener-va originally meant "place of the dead" or "the dead"? Could Minerva
                have been originally the embodiment of the underworld just like Canaanite
                Mot, before being artificially connected with Athena? Just a thought.

                - gLeN


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              • Glen Gordon
                ... I wish you would. What s Mavort-? Accessing... Ah! Here we are. You appear to have come to this site: http://www.paganitas.com/txt/ing.htm Hmm. Strange. I
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 1, 2001
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                  >Maris - Ares, Maris related to Mavort-, but I dont know to explain.

                  I wish you would. What's Mavort-? Accessing... Ah! Here we are. You appear
                  to have come to this site:

                  http://www.paganitas.com/txt/ing.htm

                  Hmm. Strange. I don't know what Mavort- is supposed to be either and yet, by
                  a quick scan, the rest of the information appears to be kosher. Perhaps this
                  is merely an idle assumption on the part of the webauthor because of Vedic
                  Marut-. Maybe Mavort- represents a loose preLatin reconstruction. If so,
                  (s)he would have been kind enough to prefix it with an asterisk for the
                  innocent masses. If this is truely a reconstruction, I could think of
                  likelier ones like *Moruts instead. Yet again, I don't know what that's
                  supposed to mean though. Marut- is supposed to have originally meant storm
                  according to one site but then that doesn't jive with the fact that Mars was
                  originally a god pertaining to fertility and vegetation.

                  >Thesan-Eos, Etruscan?

                  Maybe it's related to IE dhe:s-.

                  >Turan-Aphrodite, Turan cf. tyrannos "tyrant"

                  That smells of a folk etymology. I wouldn't place significance on that
                  connection. It can't be from /tyrannos/.

                  >Apulu - > Apollo). Apollon > Apullu

                  Greek Apollon "destroyer" (/apollyo/ "destroy"). I assume that Apollo is
                  associated with "destruction" ironically because of his ability to heal. He
                  is clearly the extension of the IE fire god even though he has been
                  transformed into a "sun" god in this instance. Sun, fire, same diff.
                  Anyways, the IE fire god is the one who helps and yet also destroys, just
                  like fire itself. Knowing this, Etruscan Apulu must be loaned from Greek,
                  not the other way around.


                  - gLeN

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                • Glen Gordon
                  ... Spoken in the area in and around Armenia, and it s weird :) If you re really interested in these languages, there s an online dictionary of a related
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 1, 2001
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                    >Where is Nakh spoken, and what sort of language is it?

                    Spoken in the area in and around Armenia, and it's weird :) If you're really
                    interested in these languages, there's an online dictionary of a related
                    language called Chechen (You know, like Chechnya?):

                    http://www.compling.hu-berlin.de/~johannes/dict/chechen/chechentrans-dict.html

                    Unfortunately you have to know some German but online German dictionaries
                    will help you out. That's what Windows is for afterall. I find the words to
                    be fun to pronounce because they have strange consonant clusters by
                    IndoEuropean standards such as Chechen /txo/ "we" (x is a gurgled "h") or
                    Ingush bwearg "eye". Fun, fun, fun! But not as much fun as the North
                    American language called Klallam which has prettier words like /Lq?t@w?@c^/
                    "beaver", /s^xWL?pe?w@n/ "shirt" and /n@xWst?e?wi?@l/ "a religious person".

                    Oh, and you may as well have this link to Starostin's North Caucasian site
                    which has plenty of vocabulary from NorthEast Caucasian languages like Nakh,
                    Chechen and Ingush.

                    http://starling.rinet.ru/

                    >Has any connection been found between Etruscan and the modern >Caucasus
                    >languages?

                    Some people try desperately but nothing serious has been found.

                    >The Egyptian inscription describing the Sea Peoples seems
                    >to say that peoples including the Tursha invaded from Anatolia. >Perhas
                    >they were driven by a drought famine.

                    The prevailing idea is that the Etruscans are from the east as the classical
                    author Herodotus had claimed. (Actually he said from Lydia in West Anatolia
                    but these Tyrrhenian languages probably were in control of the whole general
                    area at one time from Greece to West Anatolia). Lemnian is spoken on the
                    island of Lemnos near Greece and is definitely related to Etruscan. Lemnian
                    pretty much proves that the Etruscans migrated by sea to West Italy at a
                    late date. Rhaetic is to be explained away as having seperated early,
                    northward from the traditional Tyrrhenian area towards Northern Italy,
                    thereby alleviating the confusion caused by another classical author
                    Dionysius who thought that the Etruscans had always been there. He may have
                    been speaking more of their related Rhaetic cousins who would have been
                    there long before the Etruscans.

                    >[...]from IE root H1-L-Dh ?[...]

                    *H1leudh-

                    >I tend to use the terms "big-endian"

                    A computer pHreAkeR is in our midst. Cool cross-over terminology. I like.
                    Hey, let's call phonemes "bytes" from now on!

                    - gLeN

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                  • MrCaws@hotmail.com
                    ... what it would ... outside ... something ... the ... / ... of ... Could ... I visited the aforementioned site, and I noticed a lot of man or men words
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 1, 2001
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                      --- In cybalist@y..., tgpedersen@h... wrote:
                      > --- In cybalist@y..., "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@h...> wrote:
                      > > > > Me:
                      > > >>Menrva looks like native Etruscan because of the typical -va
                      > >>suffix,
                      > > >>which might be used for a collective sense, but I'm not sure
                      what it would
                      > > >>mean.
                      > >
                      > > Chris G:
                      > > >I have seen some try to reconstruct a proto-form, *Menesua,
                      > relating >it to
                      > > >the moon and to menstruation.
                      > >
                      > > That would be great if Etruscan were an IE language... but it's
                      > only related
                      > > to IE at best, not part of it. The Etruscan word for "moon" is
                      > known to be
                      > > /tiur/ and I haven't seen any such "moon" word like *menes-
                      outside
                      > of IE.
                      > > Plus, *-s- changes to -r- in _Latin_. We're not talking about
                      > Latin. We're
                      > > talking about Etruscan. So, we would be best to look for
                      something
                      > along the
                      > > lines of preEtruscan *Mener-va instead. This *mener- looks like
                      the
                      > plural
                      > > of something and this would go well with the -va suffix... but I
                      > still don't
                      > > have a clue as to what it might mean. Good try though.
                      > >
                      > > I notice that there are other Etruscan deities starting with /man-
                      /
                      > that
                      > > might relate to the etymology of Menrva, like Mania, the goddess
                      of
                      > the
                      > > underworld, and Mantus, god of the underworld. As well, there are
                      > words like
                      > > /mani/ "the dead". I see a common theme happenin' here. Is it
                      > possible that
                      > > *Mener-va originally meant "place of the dead" or "the dead"?
                      Could
                      > Minerva
                      > > have been originally the embodiment of the underworld just like
                      > Canaanite
                      > > Mot, before being artificially connected with Athena? Just a
                      > thought.
                      > >
                      > > - gLeN
                      > >
                      > Here's a nice repository for *man- words:
                      >
                      > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/man.html
                      >
                      > Feel free to use it.
                      >
                      > Torsten


                      I visited the aforementioned site, and I noticed a lot of man or
                      men words connected with knowledge/mind. Seeing as how that's one of
                      Minerva's primary attributes, could this work? -Mr. Caws
                    • Cyber Kuryber
                      ... 1) nope, apollumi is destroy; Apollo is created through haplology : *apo-pellw (O grade of apophony for the nomen actionis)therefore Apollo the one who
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 2, 2001
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                        > >Apulu - > Apollo). Apollon > Apullu
                        > Greek Apollon "destroyer" (/apollyo/ "destroy")

                        1) nope, "apollumi" is destroy;
                        Apollo is created through haplology : *apo-pellw (O
                        grade of apophony for the nomen actionis)therefore
                        Apollo "the one who refutes". Take care of oldest
                        inscriptional material: Apollo muxios (on the
                        fields), "the one who refutes the mice".


                        > I assume that Apollo is associated with
                        "destruction" ironically because of his ability to
                        heal.

                        Iliad I, the oldest inscriptions: Apollo delivers the
                        plague. I do not see much of irony. It is more of a
                        functional ambivalency; what made you sick will make
                        you healthy again.

                        He
                        > is clearly the extension of the IE fire god even
                        > though he has been
                        > transformed into a "sun" god in this instance. Sun,
                        > fire, same diff. Anyways, the IE fire god is the one
                        who helps and yet also destroys, just like fire
                        itself. Knowing this, Etruscan Apulu must
                        > be loaned from Greek, not the other way around.

                        Probably.

                        Best regards,
                        Andrej

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                      • petegray
                        ... A perfectly respectable god-name in Latin, used as an alternative for Mars, and as the basis for the adjective Mavortius. It is suggested that Mavors
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 2, 2001
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                          >What's Mavort-?

                          A perfectly respectable god-name in Latin, used as an alternative for Mars,
                          and as the basis for the adjective Mavortius. It is suggested that Mavors
                          < *magh (Greek mache = battle) + *vert/vort ("turn"), so meaning "he who
                          turns the battle". The name Mars could be merely a contraction from
                          Mavors.

                          You'll find examples in Vergil's Aeneid at 6:872, 8:630 and about 5 other
                          places, so it's thoroughly classical.

                          Peter
                        • João Simões Lopes Filho
                          Well, it s interesting. I ve already thought in this possibility, but I ve never seen in any book. Is there another examples of IE *magh- battle outside
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 3, 2001
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                            Well, it's interesting. I've already thought in this possibility, but I've
                            never seen in any book.
                            Is there another examples of IE *magh- "battle"' outside Greek ?(Persian
                            maz-?)
                            The suffix -vrt(i) appears in Persian fravashi < *pra-vrti-

                            There's also for Mars duplicated forms Mamercus (<Ma(r)-marticos), Mamers
                            (Ma(r)-mart-).

                            Joao SL
                            Rio de Janeiro
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: petegray <petegray@...>
                            To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 5:34 PM
                            Subject: Re: [tied] Backward Etruscan


                            > >What's Mavort-?
                            >
                            > A perfectly respectable god-name in Latin, used as an alternative for
                            Mars,
                            > and as the basis for the adjective Mavortius. It is suggested that
                            Mavors
                            > < *magh (Greek mache = battle) + *vert/vort ("turn"), so meaning "he who
                            > turns the battle". The name Mars could be merely a contraction from
                            > Mavors.
                            >
                            > You'll find examples in Vergil's Aeneid at 6:872, 8:630 and about 5 other
                            > places, so it's thoroughly classical.
                            >
                            > Peter
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                          • petegray
                            ... Also the form Marmar in the song of the Arval brethren. Peter
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 3, 2001
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                              > There's also for Mars duplicated forms

                              Also the form Marmar in the song of the Arval brethren.

                              Peter
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