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Re: [tied] path

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  • tgpedersen
    ... If you want to define every loan in Germanic with initial p- as NWB, the word loses its meaning. ... Last I was there, the Netherlands were mostly on the
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 4, 2009
      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet" <fournet.arnaud@...>
      wrote:
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...>
      >
      >
      > Now if that *pa:d thing (note the long vowel) in Swedish meant
      > something like "low-lying land" (and there are many promising
      > cognates in NWB-land), it could be categorized with all those other
      > words with labial having to do with water; that might solve the
      > *paþ- "way, path, road" mystery too.
      >
      > Note that it's a word in p-, so it's not Germanic, it can't be NWB,
      >
      > =========
      >
      > Why is it not NWB ?
      >
      > Even North Saami has NWB words.
      > bovttas^ = puffin
      > balsa = peat / pedel=peel
      > bupmalas = fulmar
      > giron = grouse
      > c^uodja = (water) sound

      If you want to define every loan in Germanic with initial p- as NWB,
      the word loses its meaning.

      > There's no reason to accept the idea NWB was limited to the western
      > bank of the Rhine...

      Last I was there, the Netherlands were mostly on the eastern bank, but
      never mind... As was obvious from the Jysk data, there wasn't much
      overlap
      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/30336


      > That supposed area from Somme to Rhine clearly does not fit the
      > area where those un-Germanic p- words are distributed.

      Weser/Aller to Somme/Oise, was Kuhn's definition


      > unless it's imported by someone, and on top of that, according to at
      > least one of Schmid's examples (Pala vs. Fala)
      > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/61266
      > hydronyms in Scandinavia should be Grimm-shifted.
      > This is a tough one.

      It gets worse.
      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/36030
      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/48678
      All the villages with *pedese names are placed on a minor stream,
      except Petze, and with a more detailed map it might turn there was one
      there too.

      Uralisches etymologisches Wörterbuch:
      'puða-se "Flußarm" U

      ? Finn. pudas (Gen. putaan) "Flußarm" (> lapp. N buðes-ððas- "the
      smaller branch of a river which divides into two branches for a short
      distance", russ. púdas, pudás "enger Flußarm, Bucht") |

      ? lapp. N bo,vces -k'c- bo,k'ca "winding creek in a river (where an
      island is formed when the river is in flood)", ...
      Kolt-Saami Paatsjoki-Saami pò,uta_s,
      Notozero-Saami pa:utas "kleinerer Arm eines Flusses" |

      ? [ostj. (741)
      Vach pas&l "Zufluß (lang — drei Tagereisen)",
      Fili pas (Pl. past&t) "Zufluß",
      Kazym pos&l "Nebenarm eines Flusses (weit abliegend)" |

      wog. (WV 76)
      Untere Kunda pas&l,
      Pelymka pos&l,
      Sosya posal "Seitenarm eines Flusses"] ||

      ?sam. jur. (345)
      Ust´e pa:ra:d,
      Njalina pa:rat "Unterarm (Ust´e), Oberarm (Ust´e Njalina)",
      Obdorsk pa:rod? "Seitenarm eines Flusses".

      Finn., lapp. s und sam. t, ð sind Ableitungssuffìxe.
      Finn. pudas kann auf Grund seiner geographischen Verbreitung auch eine
      Entlehnung aus dem Lapp. sein.
      Der inlautende Konsonantismus im Lapp. ist unregelmäßig: N bo,vces
      -k'ca- kann auf urlapp. *pukc^ase, Kolt-Saami Paatsjoki-Saami pò:utas
      und Notozero-Saami pa:utas auf uгlapp. *puktase zurückgeführt werden.

      Das ostjakische und das wogulische Wort können nur dann zu dieser
      Zusammenstellung gehören, wenn im Obugrischen eine Metathese
      stattgefunden hat und das inlautende s ursprünglich ein Suffixelement war.

      Das samojedische jurakische Wort hat früher wahrscheinlich "Unterarm,
      Oberarm" bedeutet, so daß diese Zugehörigkeit ebenfalls fraglich ist.'


      If this gloss has Uralic distribution, what is it doing in NWGermany
      and the Netherlands? This is very weird.



      Torsten
    • Arnaud Fournet
      ... From: Octavià Alexandre ... Spanish balsa pool is a substrate borrowing like Basque baltsa mud, puddle , palsa (Z) puddle , balsa (HN) pool , balxa
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 5, 2009
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Octavià Alexandre
        >
        > Interesting, Spanish balsa originally "swamp", now usually "raft" is
        > substrate
        >
        Spanish balsa 'pool' is a substrate borrowing like Basque baltsa 'mud,
        puddle', palsa (Z) 'puddle', balsa (HN) 'pool', balxa (Z) 'marsh, bog,
        swamp'. These forms are related to PNC *ph|ilts':w@ 'dirt, mud'.

        ============

        And why is not a LW of pond or pool, or a related Germanic word ?

        A.
      • Arnaud Fournet
        ... From: tgpedersen ... If you want to define every loan in Germanic with initial p- as NWB, the word loses its meaning. =========
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 5, 2009
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...>
          >
          > Now if that *pa:d thing (note the long vowel) in Swedish meant
          > something like "low-lying land" (and there are many promising
          > cognates in NWB-land), it could be categorized with all those other
          > words with labial having to do with water; that might solve the
          > *paþ- "way, path, road" mystery too.
          >
          > Note that it's a word in p-, so it's not Germanic, it can't be NWB,
          >
          > =========
          >
          > Why is it not NWB ?
          >
          > Even North Saami has NWB words.
          > bovttas^ = puffin
          > balsa = peat / pedel=peel
          > bupmalas = fulmar
          > giron = grouse
          > c^uodja = (water) sound

          If you want to define every loan in Germanic with initial p- as NWB,
          the word loses its meaning.
          =========
          You have made the claim *paTH was not NWB
          because it's attested north of the supposed NWB area.
          I'm just pointing at the fact this NWB area is probably larger than
          your/Kuhn's definition.
          A.
          =======

          > That supposed area from Somme to Rhine clearly does not fit the
          > area where those un-Germanic p- words are distributed.

          Weser/Aller to Somme/Oise, was Kuhn's definition
          =======

          This is probably not large enough.
          A.
          ========

          > unless it's imported by someone, and on top of that, according to at
          > least one of Schmid's examples (Pala vs. Fala)
          > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/61266
          > hydronyms in Scandinavia should be Grimm-shifted.
          > This is a tough one.

          It gets worse.
          =======

          Indeed,
          Take care you don't mix everything up.
          A.
          ========

          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/36030
          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/48678
          All the villages with *pedese names are placed on a minor stream,
          except Petze, and with a more detailed map it might turn there was one
          there too.

          Uralisches etymologisches Wörterbuch:
          'puða-se "Flußarm" U

          ? Finn. pudas (Gen. putaan) "Flußarm" (> lapp. N buðes-ððas- "the
          smaller branch of a river which divides into two branches for a short
          distance", russ. púdas, pudás "enger Flußarm, Bucht") |

          ? lapp. N bo,vces -k'c- bo,k'ca "winding creek in a river (where an
          island is formed when the river is in flood)", ...
          Kolt-Saami Paatsjoki-Saami pò,uta_s,
          Notozero-Saami pa:utas "kleinerer Arm eines Flusses" |

          ? [ostj. (741)
          Vach pas&l "Zufluß (lang - drei Tagereisen)",
          Fili pas (Pl. past&t) "Zufluß",
          Kazym pos&l "Nebenarm eines Flusses (weit abliegend)" |

          wog. (WV 76)
          Untere Kunda pas&l,
          Pelymka pos&l,
          Sosya posal "Seitenarm eines Flusses"] ||

          ?sam. jur. (345)
          Ust´e pa:ra:d,
          Njalina pa:rat "Unterarm (Ust´e), Oberarm (Ust´e Njalina)",
          Obdorsk pa:rod? "Seitenarm eines Flusses".

          Finn., lapp. s und sam. t, ð sind Ableitungssuffìxe.
          Finn. pudas kann auf Grund seiner geographischen Verbreitung auch eine
          Entlehnung aus dem Lapp. sein.
          Der inlautende Konsonantismus im Lapp. ist unregelmäßig: N bo,vces
          -k'ca- kann auf urlapp. *pukc^ase, Kolt-Saami Paatsjoki-Saami pò:utas
          und Notozero-Saami pa:utas auf uгlapp. *puktase zurückgeführt werden.

          Das ostjakische und das wogulische Wort können nur dann zu dieser
          Zusammenstellung gehören, wenn im Obugrischen eine Metathese
          stattgefunden hat und das inlautende s ursprünglich ein Suffixelement war.

          Das samojedische jurakische Wort hat früher wahrscheinlich "Unterarm,
          Oberarm" bedeutet, so daß diese Zugehörigkeit ebenfalls fraglich ist.'


          If this gloss has Uralic distribution, what is it doing in NWGermany
          and the Netherlands? This is very weird.
          Torsten

          ===========

          It's not far from being a Saami substratic word.
          Ugric and Samoyedic are only dubiously related.

          You can add the word Germanic *po:l "pool" to the list.

          One more p- word attested in Saami.

          The change l > dh in Saami is regular
          Cf. *selika > sedhga

          A.
        • Rick McCallister
          ... the word is pre-Germanic in Iberian Latin
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 5, 2009
            --- On Mon, 1/5/09, Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud@...> wrote:

            > From: Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud@...>
            > Subject: Re: [tied] Re: balsa
            > To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 7:02 AM
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Octavià Alexandre
            > >
            > > Interesting, Spanish balsa originally
            > "swamp", now usually "raft" is
            > > substrate
            > >
            > Spanish balsa 'pool' is a substrate borrowing like
            > Basque baltsa 'mud,
            > puddle', palsa (Z) 'puddle', balsa (HN)
            > 'pool', balxa (Z) 'marsh, bog,
            > swamp'. These forms are related to PNC *ph|ilts':w@
            > 'dirt, mud'.
            >
            > ============
            >
            > And why is not a LW of pond or pool, or a related Germanic
            > word ?
            >
            > A.

            the word is pre-Germanic in Iberian Latin
          • dgkilday57
            ... come ... if ... have ... . ... Gaulish, ... The geographic distribution is compatible with borrowing from either Gaulish or Nordwestblöckisch, but I have
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 8, 2009
              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet"
              <fournet.arnaud@...> wrote:
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...>
              >
              > [...]
              >
              > To me it makes more sense to assume a Gaulish *bat- as the source.
              > Pokorny assigns some Insular Celtic words pertaining to death, Old
              > Irish <baîd> 'dies', etc., to PIE *gwa:- (i.e. *gweH2-) 'to go,
              come'
              > on the grounds that dying is a going forward from the realm of
              > mortals. In English, <pass> is used in a similar sense. This
              > Insular specialization of the word was not necessarily shared with
              > Gaulish. The Greek adjective <batós> '(easily) passed, passable',
              if
              > it comes from *gwm.to- like the Latin participle <ventum>, would
              have
              > *banto- as the expected Gaulish cognate. However, a parallel
              > adjective *gwH2to- from *gweH2- not *gwem- would yield Gaul. *bato-
              .
              > I propose that this form in the sense 'passable' was used in
              Gaulish,
              > typically as a substantive with a noun 'way, road' understood, and
              > borrowed as a noun by pre-Grimm-shift Germanic-speakers along the
              > lower Rhine, where it regularly became WGmc *paþa-, and remained
              > restricted to regional usage.
              >
              > DGK
              >
              > =========
              >
              > What about NWB as an alternative to Celtic ?
              >
              > A.
              >

              The geographic distribution is compatible with borrowing from either
              Gaulish or Nordwestblöckisch, but I have doubts about interdental
              fricatives occurring in the latter. Of the 35 Germanic stems which
              H. Kuhn, "Anlautend _P-_ im Germanischen", ZMaf 28:1-31 [1961]
              regards as probably containing unshifted Indo-European /p-/ from
              NWB, three have an interdental. These are our *paþ- 'Pfad, treten'
              which he derives from PIE *ped-, *pod- 'Fuß', citing Bremisch
              <pad> 'Fußsohle' and Altmärkisch <padd'n> 'Fußspuren'; *peþil-,
              *peðil- 'Niederung, Moorland', supposedly extensions of *peþ-, *peð-
              which he connects with Greek <pedíon> 'Ebene'; and *piþ-, *pitt-
              'Mark der Pflanze' which he derives from PIE *pi- 'fett' [sic; the
              root is Pokorny's *pey(H)-, IEW p. 793]; presumably his NWB stem
              represents a PIE /d/-extension of the zero-grade corresponding to
              the /o/-grade *poi(H)d-, Gmc. *fait- 'plump, fat' (this itself is
              problematic because the laryngeal should have lengthened the stem-
              vowel, PIE *piHd- > Proto-NWB *pi:d-, but Gmc. has reflexes of
              short /i/, English <pith>, Dutch <pit>, etc.). While I cannot rule
              out the possibility that NWB indeed reflected PIE *d (or *dy?)
              as /ð/, and devoiced it to /þ/ in stem-final position, it seems less
              complicated to assume pre-Grimm borrowing of Gaul. *bat- to yield
              Gmc. *paþ-. Possibly *peþil- comes from a similar borrowing of a
              Gaulish *betulo:n vel sim. 'birch-place', originally applied to
              moist places in the northern coniferous forest; cf. P.H. Raven and
              H. Curtis, _Biology of Plants_ [1970], p. 570:

              "A number of genera of coniferous trees, such as spruce, hemlock,
              fir, and pines (in relatively warm, dry areas) are common, with a
              lesser representation of willows and birches, particularly in moist
              places."

              Romance reflexes require a wide variety of protoforms for 'birch' in
              different Gaulish dialects, all with *bet(t)-.

              Kuhn's <pad> and <padd'n> may very well be of NWB origin from PIE
              *ped-, *pod-, independently of the 'path' question.

              I have no explanation for *piþ-.

              DGK
            • dgkilday57
              ... Germanic ... The place-name oppidum Lusitaniae ... paludibus vastis cinctum (Plin. 4:116) suggests that the word was borrowed from Iberian into
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 8, 2009
                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > --- On Mon, 1/5/09, Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > And why is [balsa] not a LW of pond or pool, or a related
                Germanic
                > > word ?
                > >
                > > A.
                >
                > the word is pre-Germanic in Iberian Latin
                >

                The place-name <Balsa> "oppidum Lusitaniae ... paludibus vastis
                cinctum" (Plin. 4:116) suggests that the word was borrowed from
                Iberian into Lusitanian already. Another <Balsa> in Sardinia is on
                swampy ground, so Bertoldi considers it a Sardo-Iberian isogloss
                like *(i)baika, <bega>, <vega>, <veiga>, but Hubschmid does not
                mention it.

                DGK
              • Arnaud Fournet
                ... From: dgkilday57 ... ========== In other words, balsa can be compared with Germanic *po:l of unclear origin ? A.
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 8, 2009
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...>
                  >> >
                  >> > And why is [balsa] not a LW of pond or pool, or a related
                  > Germanic
                  >> > word ?
                  >> >
                  >> > A.
                  >>
                  >> the word is pre-Germanic in Iberian Latin
                  >>
                  >
                  > The place-name <Balsa> "oppidum Lusitaniae ... paludibus vastis
                  > cinctum" (Plin. 4:116) suggests that the word was borrowed from
                  > Iberian into Lusitanian already. Another <Balsa> in Sardinia is on
                  > swampy ground, so Bertoldi considers it a Sardo-Iberian isogloss
                  > like *(i)baika, <bega>, <vega>, <veiga>, but Hubschmid does not
                  > mention it.
                  >
                  > DGK
                  >
                  ==========

                  In other words, balsa can be compared with Germanic *po:l of unclear origin
                  ?

                  A.
                • Rick McCallister
                  ... Possibly. Given that it shows up in Lusitania and Sardinia,I d guess that some IE language related to Lusitanian was probably once spoken in Sardinia
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 8, 2009
                    --- On Thu, 1/8/09, Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud@...> wrote:

                    > From: Arnaud Fournet <fournet.arnaud@...>
                    > Subject: Re: [tied] Re: balsa
                    > To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Thursday, January 8, 2009, 4:17 PM
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...>
                    > >> >
                    > >> > And why is [balsa] not a LW of pond or pool,
                    > or a related
                    > > Germanic
                    > >> > word ?
                    > >> >
                    > >> > A.
                    > >>
                    > >> the word is pre-Germanic in Iberian Latin
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > > The place-name <Balsa> "oppidum Lusitaniae
                    > ... paludibus vastis
                    > > cinctum" (Plin. 4:116) suggests that the word was
                    > borrowed from
                    > > Iberian into Lusitanian already. Another
                    > <Balsa> in Sardinia is on
                    > > swampy ground, so Bertoldi considers it a
                    > Sardo-Iberian isogloss
                    > > like *(i)baika, <bega>, <vega>,
                    > <veiga>, but Hubschmid does not
                    > > mention it.
                    > >
                    > > DGK
                    > >
                    > ==========
                    >
                    > In other words, balsa can be compared with Germanic *po:l
                    > of unclear origin
                    > ?
                    >
                    > A.

                    Possibly. Given that it shows up in Lusitania and Sardinia,I'd guess that some IE language related to Lusitanian was probably once spoken in Sardinia --probably something close to IE Ligurian, Illyrian, etc. i.e. non-Celtic, non-Italic but fairly closely related to both
                  • tgpedersen
                    ... How about a derivation *p-iþ- rich (fat) land near water ? The question of unwarranted alternation b-/p-, and even b-/f- in Germanic is a vexed one.
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 8, 2009
                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet"
                      > <fournet.arnaud@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@>
                      > >
                      > > [...]
                      > >
                      > > To me it makes more sense to assume a Gaulish *bat- as the source.
                      > > Pokorny assigns some Insular Celtic words pertaining to death, Old
                      > > Irish <baîd> 'dies', etc., to PIE *gwa:- (i.e. *gweH2-) 'to go,
                      > > come' on the grounds that dying is a going forward from the realm
                      > > of mortals. In English, <pass> is used in a similar sense. This
                      > > Insular specialization of the word was not necessarily shared with
                      > > Gaulish. The Greek adjective <batós> '(easily) passed,
                      > > passable', if it comes from *gwm.to- like the Latin participle
                      > > <ventum>, would have *banto- as the expected Gaulish cognate.
                      > > However, a parallel adjective *gwH2to- from *gweH2- not *gwem-
                      > > would yield Gaul. *bato-
                      > .
                      > > I propose that this form in the sense 'passable' was used in
                      > > Gaulish, typically as a substantive with a noun 'way, road'
                      > > understood, and borrowed as a noun by pre-Grimm-shift Germanic-
                      > > speakers along the lower Rhine, where it regularly became WGmc
                      > > *paþa-, and remained restricted to regional usage.
                      > >
                      > > DGK
                      > >
                      > > =========
                      > >
                      > > What about NWB as an alternative to Celtic ?
                      > >
                      > > A.
                      > >
                      >
                      > The geographic distribution is compatible with borrowing from
                      > either Gaulish or Nordwestblöckisch, but I have doubts about
                      > interdental fricatives occurring in the latter. Of the 35 Germanic
                      > stems which H. Kuhn, "Anlautend _P-_ im Germanischen", ZMaf 28:1-31
                      > [1961] regards as probably containing unshifted Indo-European /p-/
                      > from NWB, three have an interdental. These are our *paþ- 'Pfad,
                      > treten' which he derives from PIE *ped-, *pod- 'Fuß', citing
                      > Bremisch <pad> 'Fußsohle' and Altmärkisch <padd'n> 'Fußspuren';
                      > *peþil-, *peðil- 'Niederung, Moorland', supposedly extensions of
                      > *peþ-, *peð- which he connects with Greek <pedíon> 'Ebene'; and
                      > *piþ-, *pitt- 'Mark der Pflanze' which he derives from PIE *pi-
                      > 'fett' [sic; the root is Pokorny's *pey(H)-, IEW p. 793];
                      > presumably his NWB stem represents a PIE /d/-extension of the
                      > zero-grade corresponding to the /o/-grade *poi(H)d-, Gmc. *fait-
                      > 'plump, fat' (this itself is problematic because the laryngeal
                      > should have lengthened the stem- vowel, PIE *piHd- > Proto-NWB
                      > *pi:d-, but Gmc. has reflexes of short /i/, English <pith>, Dutch
                      > <pit>, etc.). While I cannot rule out the possibility that NWB
                      > indeed reflected PIE *d (or *dy?) as /ð/, and devoiced it to /þ/ in
                      > stem-final position, it seems less complicated to assume pre-Grimm
                      > borrowing of Gaul. *bat- to yield Gmc. *paþ-. Possibly *peþil-
                      > comes from a similar borrowing of a Gaulish *betulo:n vel sim.
                      > 'birch-place', originally applied to moist places in the northern
                      > coniferous forest; cf. P.H. Raven and H. Curtis, _Biology of
                      > Plants_ [1970], p. 570:
                      >
                      > "A number of genera of coniferous trees, such as spruce, hemlock,
                      > fir, and pines (in relatively warm, dry areas) are common, with a
                      > lesser representation of willows and birches, particularly in moist
                      > places."
                      >
                      > Romance reflexes require a wide variety of protoforms for 'birch'
                      > in different Gaulish dialects, all with *bet(t)-.
                      >
                      > Kuhn's <pad> and <padd'n> may very well be of NWB origin from PIE
                      > *ped-, *pod-, independently of the 'path' question.
                      >
                      > I have no explanation for *piþ-.

                      How about a derivation *p-iþ- "rich (fat) land near water"?

                      The question of 'unwarranted' alternation b-/p-, and even b-/f- in
                      Germanic is a vexed one. The former is of course NWB by virtue of the
                      occurrence of the p-, so the second one probably is too.
                      Here is what Grimm has to say about them:

                      'B L I C K E Z U R Ü C K.
                      1) Unsre sprache hat eine arge Verwirrung der anlaute B und P zu
                      tragen, während in der lingualordnung, nach manchem schwanken früherer
                      jahrhunderte, heute das strengahd. gesetz aufrecht steht, für die
                      gutturalanlaute hingegen auf die go-thische, sächsische stufe
                      zurückgewichen wurde, herscht in der labialreihe schädliche
                      unsicherheit, zwar blieb PF gegenüber dem gothischsächsischen P,
                      allein für das strenge P drängte es allmälich wieder zur media B.
                      hochdeutsches B, das bei ungestörtem organismus den platz des
                      gothischsächs. F auch anlautend hätte einnehmen sollen, strebte in den
                      von P, wie G in den von K. vollen sieg erlangte ß dennoch nicht, wenn
                      es auch im mittleren Deutschland meistens durchdrang, behauptete in
                      oberdeutschen landstrichen P häufig seine gebührende stelle, ja die am
                      weitesten gegen Süden vorgeschobnen mundarten, z. b. die kärntnische
                      wissen von gar keinem anlautenden B. in der hochdeutschen
                      Schriftsprache kleben unter der masse von B mindestens einzelne P als
                      ausnahmen.
                      Dieser mischung des B und P sind unsere schwestersprachen, beinahe
                      ganz überhoben, von ein paar fällen abgesehn, die ihnen der
                      hochdeutsche einflusz zuführte, nirgends aber hat die unsicherheit
                      empfindlicheren nachtheil als im Wörterbuch, weil dadurch ausflüsse
                      einer und derselben wurzel von einander gesprengt werden und das
                      gefühl ihres zusammenhangs erloschen ist. eine menge von Usern, die
                      hier wörter wie bauke, blunder, bracht im B aufschlagen und nun eine
                      dafür vorgetragene ableitung prüfen können, werden das verständnis
                      unsrer sprache da gefördert finden, wo sie sonst gleichgültig vorüber
                      giengen, die erkenntnis der echten wurzel hat jedoch nicht selten ihre
                      Schwierigkeit, und einzelne, diesmal entschlüpfte ausdrücke werden
                      erst im P ihre erledigung finden.
                      Zumeist haftet P vor L und R: plahe platschen plerren pletzen plunder
                      pracht prügeln prallen prangen prasseln prassen protzen prügel prunk;
                      doch auch vor vocalen: pams panner Passau patschen patzig pauke
                      pausch. kaum vor E und I: petze picken; leichter vor O und U: pochen
                      polster poltern porkirche pompernickel posse potz purzeln pusch
                      putzen, einigemal scheint P durch misverstand gehegt, wie in der
                      redensart zu paaren treiben; anderemal sollte die abweichende
                      Schreibung unterschiede der bedeutung sichern, wie wenn schon Fischart
                      setzt: ich hab dirs bracht ohn allen pracht. Garg. 98b.
                      In allen solchen wörtern hatte P sein gutes recht und klingt
                      hochdeutsch wie in pachen pan pei peiszen peunt pild plint plitz
                      podein pock prei pruder u. a. m., denen man ehmahls P gab, die
                      bairische, steirische, kärntnische aussprache noch immer gibt, dies P
                      hält aber den gang unsrer Schriftsprache nicht ein und findet sich
                      gegenüber der menge aller lianlaute sichtbar in minderzahl; einzelne
                      triebe derselben wurzel werden auseinander gerissen, z. b. bock und
                      pochen, bringen und prangen, brachte und pracht, butz und putzen, man
                      könnte also getrost aufhören in diesen wörtern P zu schreiben.

                      2) als die erweichung des P im zug war, begann man natürlich, sie auch
                      auf fremde Wörter zu erstrecken und zu schreiben bapst bapier barücke
                      beiz berle bilger bims, in welchen doch nachher die pedantische
                      ansicht, dasz der fremde anlaut unverändert bleiben müsse, P
                      herzustellen strebte, welche entstellung auch der ausdruck sonst
                      erfahren habe. anderemal litt umgedreht das fremde B hochdeutsche
                      erhärtung, wie in pursch, posaune, wovon noch mehr beispiele in P
                      vorkommen werden.

                      3) merkwürdiger sind die seltnen Schwankungen zwischen B und F in
                      einheimischen anlauten wie balzen und falzen, barch und ferkel, barm
                      und farm, belche und felche, blach und flach, bregeln und fregeln,
                      bülzan und fülzan, bürzel und fürzel, welcher richtung auch bibel und
                      fibel folgen, nicht anders wechselten elibenzo und alfanz, bîbôz und
                      beifusz (umgedreht barfusz und barbes 1, 1131) und die heutige sprache
                      strebt haber, schnauben, elb u. o. m. zu ändern in hafer, schnaufen,
                      elf. goth. bairgahei und fairguni wurden schon oft verglichen, aber
                      auch das lat. bo in amabo gehört zu fui und bilis unmittelbar zu fel.

                      4) grosze übereinkunft weist das latein und unsre sprache in den
                      anlauten: F und B. nehme man die verba ferre bären, ferire bere:n,
                      furere büren; fui bin, facere, fieri bauen; fervere brauen; findere
                      beiszen; fundere boszen (wie tundere stoszen), vgl. fodere und bieten;
                      fligere bleuen; flare blasen, blähen; florere blühen; fovere bähen,
                      vgl. bächeln; forare bohren; frangere brechen, daneben ein
                      unerwiesenes fraudere (wie claudere, plaudere), vielleicht auch
                      frendere für das alte brieszen; fremere brummen; frigere bregeln; frui
                      brauchen; fugere biegen und fliehen; folgere bleichen, flagrare
                      blicken. dazu die nomina frater bruder; fiber biber; fulica belche;
                      faba bone; fagus buche; folium blatt; frons, frondis brosz; fons,
                      fontis für frons = fovens, fervens, wie brunne von brinnen; fascis
                      busch; follis balg(bolle); fundus boden; frustum brocke, brot; brei a
                      fervendo; frenum breidel; lividus für flividus blau; furvus, fuscus
                      braun; flaccus blöde; fensus,. infensus böse, bleiben unter diesen
                      auch noch einzelne unsicher oder müssen ausgeschieden werden, so
                      können andere an ihre stelle treten und den einklang erhöhen. das
                      gesetz, nach welchem ausfallendes oder zutretendes L (in biegen,
                      fugere) und R (in backe, fovere, fons, fungi) von uralter zeit an
                      wurzeln zu spalten scheinen, wird allmälich klarheil gewinnen.

                      5) diesem canon des lat. F, deutschen B stehn als ausnahme entgegen
                      die fälle, wo lat. P unserm B (= ahd. P) begegnet, denn so gut neben
                      lat. fero pario und partus erscheint, darf diesem partus auch unser
                      burt entsprechen, oder dem petere unser bitten, dem plumbum unser
                      blei, dem puer unser bube, dem pallere unser bleichen, dem pavere
                      unser beben verglichen werden, ohne dasz entlehnung statt fände, seit
                      nunmehr Uppström das goth. bairabagms Luc. 17, 6 gesichert hat, musz
                      bainabagms fallen und jenes dem ahd. pirapoum, nhd. birbaum, birabaum
                      gleich gelten, baira leitet sich aber schön von bairan, während das
                      lat. pirum im vocal von pario absteht, wie baris, ags. bere, lat. far
                      auf getraide, wurde es auf die birne und von Ulfilas auf die maulbeere
                      angewandt, hätten die Allhochdeutschen das wort aus pirum entlehnt, so
                      würden sie pfira, phira gebildet haben.'

                      Now how come the exact same alternations, b-/p- and b-/f- occur in
                      Jysk too?
                      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/30336
                      Normally one would assume the effect of dialect mixture to explain
                      such alternation, but German and Jysk aren't composed of the same
                      dialects? Or are these words?


                      Torsten
                    • tgpedersen
                      And BTW Ishinan (hope you don t mind me quoting it here) sent me: Arab. bt.n, bt.h. which means (if I interpret it correctly) road, beaten track or
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 8, 2009
                        And BTW Ishinan (hope you don't mind me quoting it here) sent me:

                        Arab. bt.n, bt.h. which means (if I interpret it correctly) "road,
                        beaten track" or "sandy-bottomed eater-course"

                        There's a lot to account for:
                        http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/pd.html


                        Torsten
                      • tgpedersen
                        ... beaten track or sandy-bottomed water-course ... Has all this NWB-talk made me grow pads on my fingers? Better sharpen them. Torsten
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 8, 2009
                          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > And BTW Ishinan (hope you don't mind me quoting it here) sent me:
                          >
                          > Arab. bt.n, bt.h. which means (if I interpret it correctly) "road,
                          beaten track" or "sandy-bottomed water-course"
                          >
                          > There's a lot to account for:
                          > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/pd.html
                          >

                          Has all this NWB-talk made me grow pads on my fingers?
                          Better sharpen them.


                          Torsten
                        • Octavià Alexandre
                          ... that some IE language related to Lusitanian was probably once spoken in Sardinia --probably something close to IE Ligurian, Illyrian, etc. i.e. non-Celtic,
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 10, 2009

                            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:

                            >
                            > Possibly. Given that it shows up in Lusitania and Sardinia,I'd guess that some IE language related to Lusitanian was probably once spoken in Sardinia --probably something close to IE Ligurian, Illyrian, etc. i.e. non-Celtic, non-Italic but fairly closely related to both
                            >
                            I wonder how could you reach this conclusion on the evidence of two words which aren't of IE origin!

                            What really matters here is that in Sardinia there was a language related to Basque and Iberian, that is, a Vasco-Caucasian one. Even more, the Shardan, one of the famous Sea Peoples who gave their name to the island, could have been their speakers. This ethonym seems to be fossilized in Basque sardana 'audacious, daring' (compare Chechen-Ingush sard-am 'curse, malediction').

                          • dgkilday57
                            ... I just found out that Wolfgang Meid proposed the same etymology of Gmc. *paþa- Pfad , as a borrowing from Celt. *batos gangbar , years ago (Bemerkungen
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jul 17, 2013
                              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > On 2008-12-30 21:33, dgkilday57 wrote:
                              >
                              > > One expects *pant- to be Grimm-shifted into *fanþ-, and
                              > > loss of the nasal in western WGmc would require compensation,
                              > > yielding *fa:þ-.
                              >
                              > There's no such thing at the WGmc. level. The loss of the nasal is
                              > restricted to the "North Sea" dialects, i.e. English, Frisian and Old
                              > Saxon, yielding *a~: (> Anglo-Frisian /o:/). In German, one would expect
                              > +<fand>. Pre-Gmc. *pant- is definitely a non-starter.
                              >
                              > > To me it makes more sense to assume a Gaulish *bat- as the source.
                              > > Pokorny assigns some Insular Celtic words pertaining to death, Old
                              > > Irish <baîd> 'dies', etc., to PIE *gwa:- (i.e. *gweH2-) 'to go, come'
                              > > on the grounds that dying is a going forward from the realm of
                              > > mortals. In English, <pass> is used in a similar sense. This
                              > > Insular specialization of the word was not necessarily shared with
                              > > Gaulish. The Greek adjective <batós> '(easily) passed, passable', if
                              > > it comes from *gwm.to- like the Latin participle <ventum>, would have
                              > > *banto- as the expected Gaulish cognate. However, a parallel
                              > > adjective *gwH2to- from *gweH2- not *gwem- would yield Gaul. *bato-.
                              > > I propose that this form in the sense 'passable' was used in Gaulish,
                              > > typically as a substantive with a noun 'way, road' understood, and
                              > > borrowed as a noun by pre-Grimm-shift Germanic-speakers along the
                              > > lower Rhine, where it regularly became WGmc *paþa-, and remained
                              > > restricted to regional usage.
                              >
                              > Interesting, and quite plausible. BTW, Matasovic' reconstructs a PCelt.
                              > *bato- (n.) 'death' (OIr. bath) from the root you mention above. If
                              > *gW&2-to-m developed semantically as 'passing' --> 'death', one can
                              > easily imagine *gW&2'-to-s 'that which is passed, way, road'. I think
                              > you've got a serious alternative for the Iranian etymology.

                              I just found out that Wolfgang Meid proposed the same etymology of Gmc. *paþa- 'Pfad', as a borrowing from Celt. *batos 'gangbar', years ago (Bemerkungen zum idg. Wortschatz des Germ., pp. 91-112 in: Das Germ. und die Rekonstruktion der idg. Grundsprache, hg. von J. Untermann - B. Brogyani, Amsterdam 1984).

                              DGK
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