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Ares day and Ertag ... Greek and Germanic

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  • A.
    Hi all, I m still struggling with the etymology of the Bavarian names for Teusday (Ertag, Erichtag, Irtag, etc) and am hoping someone can shed some light on
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 4, 2008
      Hi all, I'm still struggling with the etymology of the Bavarian names
      for Teusday (Ertag, Erichtag, Irtag, etc) and am hoping someone can
      shed some light on the issue.

      The following is taken from Jacob Grimm's Teutonic Mythology, chapter
      9. Notes in [[ ... ]] are taken from Grimm's footnotes or Supplement
      section.

      <begin quoted section>

      Still more plainly are High German races, especially the Bavarian
      (Marcomannic) pointed to by that singular name for the third day of
      the week, Ertag, Iertag, Iertag, Irtag, Eritag, Erchtag, Erichtag,
      which answers to the rune Eor.

      True, the compound Ertac lacks the genetive ending -s which is
      preserved in Ziestac, and I have not been so fortunate as to hunt up
      an Erestac (In a passage from Keisersberg quoted by Schm. 1, 97, it
      is spelt Eristag, apparently to favour the derivation from 'dies
      aeris.') in the older records of the 13-14 centuries; nevertheless
      the coincidence of the double names for the day and for the rune
      should be conclusive here, and we must suppose an OHG. Erestac, to
      match the Eresberg.


      ((Grimm compares Zio to Zeus and then states:))
      we see at a glance that Eor, Er, Ear, is one with Arhj the son of
      Zeus;



      Have we any means now left of getting at the sense of this obscure
      root Eor?
      The description of the rune in the AS. poem gives only a slight hint,
      it runs thus:

      Eor is horrible to every knight,
      when the corpse quickly begins to cool
      and is laid in the bosom of the dark earth.
      Prosperity declines, happiness passes away
      and covenants are broken.

      or

      Earth is loathsome to each nobleman,
      when flesh firmly tries to choose the ground,
      fallen fruits as bedmates,
      joy vanishes,
      man turns traitor.
      ((Rune poem translations not from Grimm)

      The description is of death coming on, and earthly joys dropping off;
      but who can that be, that at such a time is burdensome (egle, ail-
      some) to men? The ordinary meaning of ear, spica, arista, can be of
      no use here; I suppose that approaching dissolution, a personified
      death is to be understood, from which a transition to the destructive
      god of battles, the brotoluigÒj, miaifÒnoj Arhj , is easy to
      conceive. [[ Or, without the need of any transition, Ear might at
      once be Ares: 'war is burdensome in old age'.]]

      Arhj itself is used abstractly by the Greeks for destruction, murder,
      pestilence, just as our Wuotan is for furor and belli impetus.

      <end quoted section>


      To follow up, I copied the next bit from the Gothic Language list:

      <start section>

      several weekdays names were borrowed by the Goths from the Greek in a
      manner like this:

      ARHOS hHMERA "the day of Ares" > *Arjaus dags or *Areins dags > OB
      erintag > NB ertag, erchtag, ergetag, irtag, irchtag

      PEMPTH hHMERA "the fifth day" (> via a colloquial compound
      *PENTHMERA - ?) > *paintedags > still more "Gothicized" *pintadags >
      NB pfinztag, pfünztag

      PARASKEUH "(the day of) preparation" > paraskaiwe (Mc 15:42) >
      *pareinsdags > OB pferintag

      SABBATOU hHMERA "the day of Sabbath" > sabbato dags (Mc 2:27 et
      passim) > *sambatadags > OB sambaztag > NHG Samstag

      <end section>

      Does the progression of ARHOS hHMERA > *Arjaus dags or *Areins dags >
      OB erintag > NB ertag, erchtag, ergetag, irtag, irchtag ...
      seem valid to you all?
      Do these Bavarian names derive from Ares??

      Thanks in advance!
      -Aydan
    • Piotr Gasiorowski
      ... It s properly (the name of the rune), presumed to be identical with OIc. aurr soil, sand, dust (or some such meaning), hence the poetic
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 4, 2008
        On 2008-11-04 15:06, A. wrote:

        > Have we any means now left of getting at the sense of this obscure
        > root Eor?
        > The description of the rune in the AS. poem gives only a slight hint,
        > it runs thus:
        >
        > Eor is horrible to every knight,
        > when the corpse quickly begins to cool
        > and is laid in the bosom of the dark earth.
        > Prosperity declines, happiness passes away
        > and covenants are broken.

        It's properly <e:ar> (the name of the <e(:)a> rune), presumed to be
        identical with OIc. aurr 'soil, sand, dust' (or some such meaning),
        hence the poetic expression <hylja auri> 'inhume, lay sb. in the grave".

        Piotr
      • A.
        ... grave . ... Piotr, My thanks for the clarification. Grimm seems to prefer Eor, although as far as I know, the modern authors on runelore agree with you.
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 5, 2008
          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:
          >
          > On 2008-11-04 15:06, A. wrote:
          >
          > > Have we any means now left of getting at the sense of this obscure
          > > root Eor?
          > > The description of the rune in the AS. poem gives only a slight
          hint, it runs thus:
          > >
          > > Eor is horrible to every knight,
          > > when the corpse quickly begins to cool
          > > and is laid in the bosom of the dark earth.
          > > Prosperity declines, happiness passes away
          > > and covenants are broken.
          >
          > It's properly <e:ar> (the name of the <e(:)a> rune), presumed to be
          > identical with OIc. aurr 'soil, sand, dust' (or some such meaning),
          > hence the poetic expression <hylja auri> 'inhume, lay sb. in the
          grave".
          >
          > Piotr
          >


          Piotr,

          My thanks for the clarification. Grimm seems to prefer Eor, although
          as far as I know, the modern authors on runelore agree with you.

          Grimm also comments:
          "One might be led to imagine that in Ertag the Earth (Erde according
          to the forms given at the beginning of ch. XIII) was meant. But the
          ancient way of thinking placed the earth in the centre of the world,
          not among the planets; she cannot therefore have given name to a day
          of the week, and there is no such day found in any nation, unless we
          turn Venus and Freyja into the earth."

          Not that I necessarily agree.

          But the primary question remains; from what do Irtag, Ertag, Erchtag,
          etc derive? Is it from ARHOS hHMERA > *Arjaus dags or *Areins dags ?
          Or could it be from Erde-tag?
          Or is there another possible explanation....

          Sincerely,
          Aydan
        • A.
          Thought I d give one last cry for help before throwing in the towel and giving up on determining anything at all about the issue.......
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 11, 2008
            Thought I'd give one last cry for help before throwing in the towel and
            giving up on determining anything at all about the issue.......


            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "A." <xthanex@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Does the progression of ARHOS hHMERA > *Arjaus dags or *Areins dags >
            > OB erintag > NB ertag, erchtag, ergetag, irtag, irchtag ...
            > seem valid to you all?
            >
            > Do these Bavarian names derive from Ares??
            >
            > Thanks in advance!
            > -Aydan
            >
          • Arnaud Fournet
            ... From: A. To: Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 5:38 AM Subject: [tied] Re: Ares day and Ertag ... Greek
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 12, 2008
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "A." <xthanex@...>
              To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 5:38 AM
              Subject: [tied] Re: Ares day and Ertag ... Greek and Germanic


              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Thought I'd give one last cry for help before throwing in the towel and
              > giving up on determining anything at all about the issue.......
              >
              =======
              I'm afraid nobody had the courage to tell you
              how desperate it looks.
              A.
              =======
              >
              > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "A." <xthanex@...> wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >> Does the progression of ARHOS hHMERA > *Arjaus dags or *Areins dags >
              >> OB erintag > NB ertag, erchtag, ergetag, irtag, irchtag ...
              >> seem valid to you all?
              >>
              >> Do these Bavarian names derive from Ares??
              >>
              >> Thanks in advance!
              >> -Aydan
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • A.
              Arnaud, Thanks for the response. I freely admit that I am certainly getting desperate =lol= ; I m not enough of a linguist to know whether the situation is
              Message 6 of 6 , Nov 13, 2008
                Arnaud,

                Thanks for the response. I freely admit that I am certainly getting
                desperate =lol= ; I'm not enough of a linguist to know whether the
                situation is desperate. Hence the asking for help!

                -Aydan

                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Arnaud Fournet"
                <fournet.arnaud@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "A." <xthanex@...>
                > To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 5:38 AM
                > Subject: [tied] Re: Ares day and Ertag ... Greek and Germanic
                > >
                > >
                > > Thought I'd give one last cry for help before throwing in the
                towel and giving up on determining anything at all about the
                issue.......
                > >
                > =======
                > I'm afraid nobody had the courage to tell you
                > how desperate it looks.
                > A.
                > =======
                > >
                > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "A." <xthanex@> wrote:
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> Does the progression of ARHOS hHMERA > *Arjaus dags or *Areins
                dags > OB erintag > NB ertag, erchtag, ergetag, irtag, irchtag ...
                > >> seem valid to you all?
                > >>
                > >> Do these Bavarian names derive from Ares??
                > >>
                > >> Thanks in advance!
                > >> -Aydan
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