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Re: [tied] Re: [pieml] Labiovelars versus Palatals + Labiovelar Approximant

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  • Arnaud Fournet
    ... From: tgpedersen ... Doesn t work either. Unstressed -we- or -wo- doesn t give -u-. More likely -we- and -wo- are the result of
    Message 1 of 154 , Nov 1, 2008
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...>

      > This functioning can only have happened _after_ unstressed vowels
      > were completely muted out in pre-PIE.

      Doesn't work either. Unstressed -we- or -wo- doesn't give -u-.

      More likely -we- and -wo- are the result of analogical levelling.



      Can you give some precise words we can discuss ?


    • Arnaud Fournet
      ... From: Piotr Gasiorowski To: Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 11:14 PM Subject: Re: [tied] Re: [pieml]
      Message 154 of 154 , Nov 12, 2008
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...>
        To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 11:14 PM
        Subject: Re: [tied] Re: [pieml] Labiovelars versus Palatals + Labiovelar

        > On 2008-11-11 22:05, Arnaud Fournet wrote:
        >> Example :
        >> *puH1 > pH1u
        >> Greek phusa, Armenian phukh, Indic phut-
        >> (But Basque buhatu, Uralic puj-)
        > Pff! Don't forget Eng. phew and (Winnie the) Pooh.
        Phew : used to express relief, fatigue, surprise or disgust.
        I can't see the connection with *puh1
        Please explain.

        An obviously
        > onomatopoeic root is of little use in comparative analyses, even if
        > something like *p(H)uh1- is vaguely reconstructible for PIE. It is good
        > linguistic practice to disqualify such forms as evidence if you're
        > trying to establish a sound correspondence.
        Onomatopeic words very often end up working like standard words.
        Pigeon does not look onomatopeic but pipio does.
        Anyway about everything is somehow onomatopeic.
        *Gwow cow is, and H2ak "stone" as well.


        But if you insist on using
        > it, the Armenian 'wind' word is really <pHowkH> (< *pHuh1-ko-, according
        > to Olsen), and the Greek 'breath' word is <pHûsa>, both reflecting
        > _long_ *u:, and therefore _not_ derivable from *ph1u-.
        Lejeune writes Armenian as being phukh
        which is why I wrote it that way.
        Anyway pHowkH can be from *ph1u > *PH_u > *phow-
        the vowel u is reinterpreted as w and a vowel o is inserted.
        standard IE morphonology.

        Greek is not attested in Ionian
        it's a LW from some other dialect/language
        for that matter, the exact prototype cannot be stated.
        Anyway, lenghthening of u is standard procedure in Greek.
        Cf. verbs in nu(:)-mi


        >> I think my new proposal works.
        >> => Your turn.
        > You haven't finished your turn. Your proposal "works" with two examples
        > and a rule designed specifically to explain their different behaviour.
        > There's nothing to reject here.
        > > Piotr
        Currently three

        It's interesting to note that *tu(H) "you" is -th-a in perfect.

        You have not explained if
        k^H and kH can be distinguished ?

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