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Re: [tied] Re: Breton - Slovenian correspondences

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  • Arnaud Fournet
    ... From: indravayu To: ... ============ So ? What do you mean ? 1. It s originally a Gaulish suffix that has
    Message 1 of 106 , Sep 4, 2008
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "indravayu" <sonno3@...>
      To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
      >> Cf. place-names in Breton : pagus, locus, -ec < -acus, etc. 100%
      >> latin.
      > Well, -acus is actually a Latinized Gaulish suffix.
      > - Chris Gwinn
      So ?

      What do you mean ?

      1. It's originally a Gaulish suffix that has been transfered into Latin.
      The surviving language being Latin.

      2. It's originally a Latin suffix applied to Gaulish names.
      The surviving langage being Latin as well.

      Note that this LAtin suffix applies to Germanic names too.
      Olp-iacus. "domain of M. Olp" (= Wolf)

    • tgpedersen
      ... Georgij A. Klimov Etymological Dictionary of the Kartvelian Languages ... CK *ter- : tr- to drag, pull : Georg. ter- : tr- to drag ; Megr. (n)tir-,
      Message 106 of 106 , Jun 8, 2009
        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
        > > > > Henceforth I will refer to Latin 'mots populaires' with root
        > > > > /a/ as belonging to 'the (Latin) a-language'
        > > > > (which I assume, ie. accept as a working hypothesis, is
        > > > > Venetic).
        > >
        > > But Venetic retains all five short vowels, as is clear from the
        > > inscc. Therefore a Venetic substrate in Latin would only "pass
        > > the buck" regarding those "mots populaires".
        > >
        > As I noted some time back, it seems the Venet- name occurs with both
        > -e- and -a-. I assume the former is from an ablauting Venetic
        > dialect, the latter from a non-ablauting one.
        > Note also in my latest post:
        > 'Zum Vokalismus und Konsonantismus der einzelnen Formen ist zu
        > bemerken: auf *-e,- geht zurück -ja- (als 'normale' ostslavische
        > Entwicklung, vor allem unter dem Ton), Belege mit —i- deuten auf
        > unbetontes -ja-, gleiches wird für -y- gelten. Appellativa, die
        > einen Vokalismus Drag- (für *Drjag-) aufweisen, sind vor allem für
        > das Poles'e - Gebiet belegt und haben ihre Ursache im Charakter des
        > -r-, wie M. Jurkowski 151 klärt: 'Ukr. twarde r dialektalne,
        > zwl/aszcza poleskie.' Formen mit -e- endlich (dregvá, drjehvá) sind
        > Reflexe eines -ja- in unbetonter Stellung, man vergleiche zu den
        > ukrainischen Dialekten des Poles'e - Gebietes T. V. Nazarova,
        > Nekotorye osobennosti vokalizma ukrainskich pravoberez^nopolesskich
        > govorov, Poles'e, Moskva 1968, S. 67 - 100, speziell S. 96 (tablica
        > 2).'
        > In other words, a mixture of dreg- and drag-, which is hard to
        > explain.

        Georgij A. Klimov
        Etymological Dictionary of the Kartvelian Languages


        CK *ter- : tr- 'to drag, pull': Georg. ter- : tr- 'to drag'; Megr. (n)tir-, (n)t&r-; Laz tir-, tor-, tur-; Svan tir- : tr-.
        Verb stem. It is in use in Old Georgian (action noun (mo)treva- 'to drag', satromel- 'sweep net'). In some Georgian dialects (for example, in Xevs.) instead of the expected e we find a, which points to a very early nonfunctional alternation of these vowels. The Megrelian variants (cf. notion noun (n)tirua-) reflect only the zero grade. In Laz we can find both: the zero one (cf. tir-) and the e//a (cf. action noun o-tor-u). Consequently, the alternation *tar- : tr- is also of Georgian-Zan age. Megr. n at the beginning of the word must be a later augmentation. For Svan cf. action noun li-tr-in-e. Arm. t'rev gal 'to trail along, loaf about' seems to be based on the Georg. action noun.
        || Georgian, Svan: Wardrop (1911: 602). Zan: C^ikobava (1938: 281-282), where a different interpretation of the stem vocalism for Laz is proposed.


        CK *ter- : tr- 'to drink (wine)': Georg. tver- : tr- 'to get drunk'; Svan tr 'to drink, to get drunk'.
        Verb stem well known in Old Georgian (da daitrvnes mis tana 'and they drank with him' Gen. 43.34; cf. the derivatives mtrval- 'drunk', simtrvale- 'drunkenness', etc.). In Georgian the historically affixal (thematic) v is included in the stem as the result of a metathesis: *ter-v-> tver-. The e ablaut grade cannot be discerned in Svan (cf. action noun li-tr-e). According to Topuria, the Svan derivative stem in li-twn-e 'to give to drink' (cf. also na-tun 'drunk') goes back to *li-t&r-un-e. In the Zan languages the stem has been lost.
        || Wardrop (1911: 602).


        GZ *trt- 'to tremble': Georg. trt- 'to tremble, to shiver'; Megr. tirt-ol- 'to tremble; to fuss'; Laz tirt-in- 'to tremble'.
        The verb stem is attested in Old Georgian sources (action noun trtola-). In the Zan languages (cf. action noun Megr. tirtolua- Laz o-tirtin-u) it is extended by different affixes. Georgian and Zan reflexes are in conformity with sonant r. The Megrelian form's meaning is broadened. The stem has a sound-symbolic character: hence the analogies in the shape of the PIE *tres-: ters- and Turk. *titrä- 'to tremble'.


        GZ *-ek. : -(i)k. a verbal extension: Georg. -ek. : -(i)k.; Megr. -ak. : -(i)k.; Laz -ak. : -ik..
        Georgian-Zan inheritance which may be extracted from a number of verb stems: cf. *dr-ek.- : dr-ik.- : d-k.-, *px-ek.- : px-ik.-, *Gwr-ek.- : Gwr-ik.-, etc. Perhaps it reflects a former marker of the weakened (superficial) Aktionsart. Cf. also *-ex : -ix and *-e3^ : -i3^ in other stems.


        Remember that 'drink' (from *tr-ek-?) originally meant "get into the wet" (cf. 'drench')



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