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Re: [tied] Horses in South India

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  • Piotr Gasiorowski
    ... As far as I remember, in April I did my best to answer a few private postings from you about horse and chariot terminology. I also explained to you I was
    Message 1 of 26 , Aug 3, 2008
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      On 2008-08-03 18:15, kishore patnaik wrote:

      > Let me append a message from to Piotr on April 12th which went
      > unacknowledged

      As far as I remember, in April I did my best to answer a few private
      postings from you about horse and chariot terminology. I also explained
      to you I was busy at the time and couldn't deal with all the messages I
      was getting. If I overlooked the one about Sindhi horses, you've got the
      answer now. At any rate "aswa itself" doesn't mean "expanse of coming
      from expanse".

      Piotr
    • george knysh
      Just in passing. How long is it going to take before this individual is booted off the list? I mean there are human limits to tolerance.... ... From: kishore
      Message 2 of 26 , Aug 3, 2008
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        Just in passing. How long is it going to take before this individual is booted off the list? I mean there are human limits to tolerance....

        --- On Sun, 8/3/08, kishore patnaik <kishorepatnaik09@...> wrote:
        From: kishore patnaik <kishorepatnaik09@...>
        Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Horses in South India
        To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, August 3, 2008, 6:28 AM

        Fr,

        Your negationist tendencies are well known.  What you write is a sheer mockery of all accepted norms of truth and logic.
        No doubt, you have amassed a good information data base but unfortunately, you are not utilising it at all.

        If what you have written in your message # 59326 is not a threat of death, then I don't know
        what else could. In any case, it reveals your bad wishes for me and of course, your obstinate
        intolerance for truth and discussion.

        Very clearly, you have agreed on Ind-Arch that your assertions are wrong in the light of
        article, refernce of which I have posted earlier in my original message.

        Now coming to my 'pearls', whatever I have posted is always radical and demands you to think out of box. You have never betrayed to think, leave
        alone thinking above others.

        Please learn to be objective. 

        I clearly don;t care for bagwags like you, since you would not be taking the Truth and Logic seriously anyway.

        kishore patnaik



         

      • Piotr Gasiorowski
        ... Such questions should be asked on Cybalist_admin or off-list. Piotr
        Message 3 of 26 , Aug 3, 2008
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          On 2008-08-03 20:53, george knysh wrote:

          > Just in passing. How long is it going to take before this individual is
          > booted off the list? I mean there are human limits to tolerance....

          Such questions should be asked on Cybalist_admin or off-list.

          Piotr
        • Piotr Gasiorowski
          ... Dear Kishore, Don t start another flame war on Cybalist. With your record of misbehaviour yopu are likely to be its first victim. Please take this warning
          Message 4 of 26 , Aug 3, 2008
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            On 2008-08-03 07:28, kishore patnaik wrote:

            > Your negationist tendencies are well known. What you write is a sheer
            > mockery of all accepted norms of truth and logic [etc.]

            Dear Kishore,

            Don't start another flame war on Cybalist. With your record of
            misbehaviour yopu are likely to be its first victim. Please take this
            warning seriously.

            Piotr
          • Piotr Gasiorowski
            ... Dear all, My apologies to Kishore and everyone. This message was distributed to the list by mistake. It was intended for Kishore s eyes only. Piotr
            Message 5 of 26 , Aug 3, 2008
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              On 2008-08-03 21:00, Piotr Gasiorowski wrote:
              >
              >
              > On 2008-08-03 07:28, kishore patnaik wrote:
              >
              > > Your negationist tendencies are well known. What you write is a sheer
              > > mockery of all accepted norms of truth and logic [etc.]
              >
              > Dear Kishore,
              >
              > Don't start another flame war on Cybalist. With your record of
              > misbehaviour yopu are likely to be its first victim. Please take this
              > warning seriously.
              >
              > Piotr

              Dear all,

              My apologies to Kishore and everyone. This message was distributed to
              the list by mistake. It was intended for Kishore's eyes only.

              Piotr
            • Rick McCallister
              Just for curiosity s sake. When did horses arrive in India? My understanding is that horses don t do very well in the tropics, especially in Africa and Asia
              Message 6 of 26 , Aug 3, 2008
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                Just for curiosity's sake. When did horses arrive in India? My understanding is that horses don't do very well in the tropics, especially in Africa and Asia due to tropical pathogens.
                What is the most current accepted timeline for the domestication of horses?

              • Piotr Gasiorowski
                ... Most experts would probably agree on something like 4000 BC, somewhere in the steppe belt (Ukraine, Kazakhstan, southern Russia). One should remember that
                Message 7 of 26 , Aug 3, 2008
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                  On 2008-08-03 21:53, Rick McCallister wrote:

                  > Just for curiosity's sake. When did horses arrive in India? My
                  > understanding is that horses don't do very well in the tropics,
                  > especially in Africa and Asia due to tropical pathogens. What is the
                  > most current accepted timeline for the domestication of horses?

                  Most experts would probably agree on something like 4000 BC, somewhere
                  in the steppe belt (Ukraine, Kazakhstan, southern Russia). One should
                  remember that domestication is not a yes-or-no thing: it may be a
                  gradual process leading from hunting to tghter and tighter control over
                  animal populations, and its early stages may be hard to detect in
                  skeletal remains (before the effects of artificial selection
                  accumulate). It seems that about 3500 BC horse breeding was already very
                  widerspread -- from Siberia to Central Europe. MtDNA studies show that
                  there were _lots_ of different matrilinear ancestors of domesticated
                  horses, while there's far less Y-chromosome variation, so relatively few
                  stallions were involved. If confirmed, this would suggest that there
                  were few original domestication events (perhaps just one) but wild mares
                  continued to be captured in many different places to provide "new blood".

                  Piotr
                • Rick McCallister
                  ... From: Piotr Gasiorowski To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 3:22:59 PM Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Horses in
                  Message 8 of 26 , Aug 3, 2008
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                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...>
                    To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 3:22:59 PM
                    Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Horses in South India

                    On 2008-08-03 21:53, Rick McCallister wrote:

                    > Just for curiosity's sake. When did horses arrive in India? My
                    > understanding is that horses don't do very well in the tropics,
                    > especially in Africa and Asia due to tropical pathogens. What is the
                    > most current accepted timeline for the domestication of horses?

                    Most experts would probably agree on something like 4000 BC, somewhere
                    in the steppe belt (Ukraine, Kazakhstan, southern Russia). One should
                    remember that domestication is not a yes-or-no thing: it may be a
                    gradual process leading from hunting to tghter and tighter control over
                    animal populations, and its early stages may be hard to detect in
                    skeletal remains (before the effects of artificial selection
                    accumulate). It seems that about 3500 BC horse breeding was already very
                    widerspread -- from Siberia to Central Europe. MtDNA studies show that
                    there were _lots_ of different matrilinear ancestors of domesticated
                    horses, while there's far less Y-chromosome variation, so relatively few
                    stallions were involved. If confirmed, this would suggest that there
                    were few original domestication events (perhaps just one) but wild mares
                    continued to be captured in many different places to provide "new blood".

                    Piotr


                    My understanding is that before domestication (and after they died out in North America), wild horses were only found in the European forest and the Eurasian steppe. That they were not found south of the Caucasus or the Himalayas. Is that correct?


                  • Piotr Gasiorowski
                    ... It s more or less true of the wild progenitor of the domesticated horse, the Eurasian wild horse. The division of (sub)fossil _Equus ferus_ into subspecies
                    Message 9 of 26 , Aug 3, 2008
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                      On 2008-08-03 23:14, Rick McCallister wrote:

                      > My understanding is that before domestication (and after they died out
                      > in North America), wild horses were only found in the European forest
                      > and the Eurasian steppe. That they were not found south of the Caucasus
                      > or the Himalayas. Is that correct?

                      It's more or less true of the wild progenitor of the domesticated horse,
                      the Eurasian wild horse. The division of (sub)fossil _Equus ferus_ into
                      subspecies is a matter of much debate, but it's clear that Przewalski's
                      horse (whether or not regarded as a separate species) was not ancestral
                      to domesticated horses. Other equids are also ruled out by genetic
                      research. The genus _Equus_ includes also asses, zebras, kiangs and
                      hemiones (onagers etc.). One subspecies of the last of them, the khur

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Wild_Ass

                      is native to India, and other wild hemiones are distributed from the
                      Near East to Central Asia and Tibet. None of them, however, has been
                      domesticated anywhere. It used to be thought that onagers were used as
                      draught animals in ancient Mesopotamia, but those animals are now
                      believed to have been domesticated asses imported from the west (the
                      African wild ass was domesticated at roughly the same time as the
                      Eurasian wild horse).

                      Piotr
                    • Rick McCallister
                      ... From: Piotr Gasiorowski To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 4:45:19 PM Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Horses in
                      Message 10 of 26 , Aug 3, 2008
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                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...>
                        To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, August 3, 2008 4:45:19 PM
                        Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Horses in South India

                        On 2008-08-03 23:14, Rick McCallister wrote:

                        > My understanding is that before domestication (and after they died out
                        > in North America), wild horses were only found in the European forest
                        > and the Eurasian steppe. That they were not found south of the Caucasus
                        > or the Himalayas. Is that correct?

                        It's more or less true of the wild progenitor of the domesticated horse,
                        the Eurasian wild horse. The division of (sub)fossil _Equus ferus_ into
                        subspecies is a matter of much debate, but it's clear that Przewalski's
                        horse (whether or not regarded as a separate species) was not ancestral
                        to domesticated horses. Other equids are also ruled out by genetic
                        research. The genus _Equus_ includes also asses, zebras, kiangs and
                        hemiones (onagers etc.). One subspecies of the last of them, the khur

                        http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Indian_Wild_ Ass

                        is native to India, and other wild hemiones are distributed from the
                        Near East to Central Asia and Tibet. None of them, however, has been
                        domesticated anywhere. It used to be thought that onagers were used as
                        draught animals in ancient Mesopotamia, but those animals are now
                        believed to have been domesticated asses imported from the west (the
                        African wild ass was domesticated at roughly the same time as the
                        Eurasian wild horse).

                        Piotr

                        Regarding Mesopotamian domestication or attempts to domesticate onagers and hemiones.  Was that a misunderstanding on the part of the Greeks? 

                        I've read that zebras actually are possible to domesticate but the problem is that their kidneys are so far up that any attempt to ride them produces pain.

                        But onagers and hemiones are just plain ornery, aren't they?


                      • Piotr Gasiorowski
                        ... It seems Greek authors failed to differentiate properly between wild equids, especially hemiones and asses (or even, say, hemiones and domestic mules). ...
                        Message 11 of 26 , Aug 3, 2008
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                          On 2008-08-04 00:10, Rick McCallister wrote:

                          > Regarding Mesopotamian domestication or attempts to domesticate onagers
                          > and hemiones. Was that a misunderstanding on the part of the Greeks?

                          It seems Greek authors failed to differentiate properly between wild
                          equids, especially hemiones and asses (or even, say, hemiones and
                          domestic mules).

                          > I've read that zebras actually are possible to domesticate but the
                          > problem is that their kidneys are so far up that any attempt to ride
                          > them produces pain.
                          >
                          > But onagers and hemiones are just plain ornery, aren't they?

                          So they are, damn their big ears :)

                          Piotr
                        • kishore patnaik
                          If he has written me here, I can not understand why I should reply on C_A. Just another instance. Kishore patnaik ... -- Love is a fruit in season at all
                          Message 12 of 26 , Aug 4, 2008
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                            If he has written me  here, I can not understand why I should reply on C_A.

                            Just another instance.

                            Kishore patnaik

                            On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 10:41 PM, Brian M. Scott <BMScott@...> wrote:

                            At 1:28:48 AM on Sunday, August 3, 2008, kishore patnaik
                            wrote:

                            > Fr,

                            [snip rubbish]

                            Take it to Cybalist_admin or to private e-mail.

                            Brian M. Scott




                            --
                            Love is a fruit in season at all times,
                            and within the reach of every hand.
                            ~:~ Mother Theresa ~:~
                          • kishore patnaik
                            Too bad that you are taking sides, Brian. How can you say I should reply it on C_A, when the same is posted to C? In any case, it is a blatant show of taking
                            Message 13 of 26 , Aug 4, 2008
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                              Too bad that you are taking sides, Brian.

                              How can you say I should reply it on C_A, when the same is posted to C?

                              In any case, it is a blatant show of taking sides, since you have dubbed my message as rubbish.

                              Kishore patnaik

                              On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 10:41 PM, Brian M. Scott <BMScott@...> wrote:

                              At 1:28:48 AM on Sunday, August 3, 2008, kishore patnaik
                              wrote:

                              > Fr,

                              [snip rubbish]

                              Take it to Cybalist_admin or to private e-mail.

                              Brian M. Scott




                              --
                              Love is a fruit in season at all times,
                              and within the reach of every hand.
                              ~:~ Mother Theresa ~:~
                            • kishore patnaik
                              ... Elsewhere, some one else is arguing that horse has originated in Africa. Your point makes a good counter. Please write horses do not do well in the tropics
                              Message 14 of 26 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                k
                                On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 1:23 AM, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:
                                Just for curiosity's sake. When did horses arrive in India? My understanding is that horses don't do very well in the tropics, especially in Africa and Asia due to tropical pathogens.
                                What is the most current accepted timeline for the domestication of horses?







                                Elsewhere, some one else is arguing that horse has originated in Africa. Your point makes
                                a good counter.

                                Please write horses do not do well in the tropics (I am ignorant of this fact), meanwhile, I can
                                forward the messages posted in favor of African origins of horse.

                                Kishore patnai 
                                 

                              • tgpedersen
                                ... I thought you had argued elsewhere that the horse (Equus caballus) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse should be assigned to the genus Hippocampus
                                Message 15 of 26 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "kishore patnaik"
                                  <kishorepatnaik09@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > k
                                  > > On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 1:23 AM, Rick McCallister
                                  <gabaroo6958@...>wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >> Just for curiosity's sake. When did horses arrive in India? My
                                  > >> understanding is that horses don't do very well in the tropics,
                                  > >> especially in Africa and Asia due to tropical pathogens.
                                  > >> What is the most current accepted timeline for the domestication
                                  > >> of horses?
                                  > >>
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Elsewhere, some one else is arguing that horse has originated in
                                  > Africa.
                                  > Your point makes
                                  > a good counter.
                                  >
                                  > Please write horses do not do well in the tropics (I am ignorant of
                                  > this fact), meanwhile, I can
                                  > forward the messages posted in favor of African origins of horse.

                                  I thought you had argued elsewhere that the horse (Equus caballus)
                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse
                                  should be assigned to the genus Hippocampus
                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seahorse
                                  or have I misunderstood you?


                                  Torsten
                                • Piotr Gasiorowski
                                  ... Perhaps Kishore means the zebrafish this time. Piotr
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                    On 2008-08-04 12:08, tgpedersen wrote:

                                    > I thought you had argued elsewhere that the horse (Equus caballus)
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse>
                                    > should be assigned to the genus Hippocampus
                                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seahorse
                                    > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seahorse>
                                    > or have I misunderstood you?

                                    Perhaps Kishore means the zebrafish this time.

                                    Piotr
                                  • kishore patnaik
                                    I did not understand you either, where did I do that? kishore patnaik ... -- Love is a fruit in season at all times, and within the reach of every hand. ~:~
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                      I did not understand you either, where did I do that?

                                      kishore patnaik

                                      On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 3:38 PM, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

                                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "kishore patnaik"


                                      <kishorepatnaik09@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > > k
                                      > > On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 1:23 AM, Rick McCallister
                                      <gabaroo6958@...>wrote:

                                      > >
                                      > >> Just for curiosity's sake. When did horses arrive in India? My
                                      > >> understanding is that horses don't do very well in the tropics,
                                      > >> especially in Africa and Asia due to tropical pathogens.
                                      > >> What is the most current accepted timeline for the domestication
                                      > >> of horses?
                                      > >>
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Elsewhere, some one else is arguing that horse has originated in
                                      > Africa.
                                      > Your point makes
                                      > a good counter.
                                      >
                                      > Please write horses do not do well in the tropics (I am ignorant of
                                      > this fact), meanwhile, I can
                                      > forward the messages posted in favor of African origins of horse.

                                      I thought you had argued elsewhere that the horse (Equus caballus)
                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse
                                      should be assigned to the genus Hippocampus
                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seahorse
                                      or have I misunderstood you?

                                      Torsten




                                      --
                                      Love is a fruit in season at all times,
                                      and within the reach of every hand.
                                      ~:~ Mother Theresa ~:~
                                    • kishore patnaik
                                      what nonsense? when did i say all this?? Kishore patnaik ... -- Love is a fruit in season at all times, and within the reach of every hand. ~:~ Mother Theresa
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                        what nonsense? when did i say all this??

                                        Kishore patnaik

                                        On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:

                                        On 2008-08-04 12:08, tgpedersen wrote:

                                        > I thought you had argued elsewhere that the horse (Equus caballus)
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse>

                                        > should be assigned to the genus Hippocampus
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seahorse
                                        > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seahorse>
                                        > or have I misunderstood you?

                                        Perhaps Kishore means the zebrafish this time.

                                        Piotr



                                        --
                                        Love is a fruit in season at all times,
                                        and within the reach of every hand.
                                        ~:~ Mother Theresa ~:~
                                      • Rick McCallister
                                        ... From: Piotr Gasiorowski To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 4, 2008 5:11:28 AM Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Horses in
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                          ----- Original Message ----
                                          From: Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...>
                                          To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Monday, August 4, 2008 5:11:28 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Horses in South India

                                          On 2008-08-04 12:08, tgpedersen wrote:

                                          > I thought you had argued elsewhere that the horse (Equus caballus)
                                          > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Horse <http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Horse>
                                          > should be assigned to the genus Hippocampus
                                          > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Seahorse
                                          > <http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Seahorse>
                                          > or have I misunderstood you?

                                          Perhaps Kishore means the zebrafish this time.

                                          Piotr


                                          Are we speaking of hippolupae, of sea whores?


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