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PIE gHaido- = Semitic gady = Germanic kiDjam?

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  • Joao S. Lopes
    Is it possible a relationship between PGermanic *gaitaz goat (cf. Latin haedus, pointing to Western IE *gHaidos) and PGerm *kiDjam, kitti:n kid (pointing
    Message 1 of 3 , Jul 1 6:58 AM
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      Is it possible a relationship between PGermanic *gaitaz "goat" (cf. Latin haedus, pointing to Western IE *gHaidos) and PGerm *kiDjam, kitti:n "kid" (pointing to IE *gidH-). I've already read that IE gHaido was from Semitic gady. Maybe *gHaido and *gidH- may represent two divergent borrowings from a common source. What do you think?

      JS Lopes



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    • Patrick Ryan
      Patrick: Joao, in my opinion, Semitic *gady would correspond to PIE *ghad(h)y-. Semitic *gaid- would correspond to PIE *ghaid(h)-; if *ghaid-, this can be
      Message 2 of 3 , Jul 1 10:27 AM
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        Patrick:
         
        Joao, in my opinion, Semitic *gady would correspond to PIE *ghad(h)y-.
         
        Semitic *gaid- would correspond to PIE *ghaid(h)-; if *ghaid-, this can be related to the PIE for 'goat' ('hairy body').
         
        I think two divergent borrowings quite unlikely.
         
        If PIE *gidh- exists in Semitic, it would have the form *k-y-d-.
         
         
        ***
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 8:58 AM
        Subject: [tied] PIE gHaido- = Semitic gady = Germanic kiDjam?

        Is it possible a relationship between PGermanic *gaitaz "goat" (cf. Latin haedus, pointing to Western IE *gHaidos) and PGerm *kiDjam, kitti:n "kid" (pointing to IE *gidH-). I've already read that IE gHaido was from Semitic gady. Maybe *gHaido and *gidH- may represent two divergent borrowings from a common source. What do you think?

        JS Lopes

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      • tgpedersen
        ... Latin haedus, pointing to Western IE *gHaidos) and PGerm *kiDjam, kitti:n kid (pointing to IE *gidH-). I ve already read that IE gHaido was from Semitic
        Message 3 of 3 , Jul 1 11:31 AM
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          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...> wrote:
          >
          > Is it possible a relationship between PGermanic *gaitaz "goat" (cf.
          Latin haedus, pointing to Western IE *gHaidos) and PGerm *kiDjam,
          kitti:n "kid" (pointing to IE *gidH-). I've already read that IE
          gHaido was from Semitic gady. Maybe *gHaido and *gidH- may represent
          two divergent borrowings from a common source. What do you think?
          >

          Møller, VISW
          '2k-g^- 'haedus'
          (< PPIE g-G^.- : g-g^-, orig. reduplication formation),
          Latv. kaza OBulg. koza: 'capra', kozIlU 'caper, hireus',
          MLG ho:ken OE he:cen 'haedus',
          :
          Semit. g-d- (d < PPSem. g^),
          + y-
          Arab. gadyuN neuarab. gedi
          Aram. gaðya: syr. gaðyå: hebr. geði: assyr. gadu: 'haedus'.
          (If Semit. g-d- < orig. g-d-, not PPSemit. g-g^-,
          it corresponds to PIE k-t-,
          ON haðna MHG hatele 'capra, haedus'.)'

          If we, unlike Møller, believe that the relation is one of loan (from
          some third language to Sem. and IE?), not common descent, we can get
          around the last objection by proposing that *g-g^- > *g-d- took place
          dialectally in that language.

          On 'kid':
          DEO mentions MIr cit "sheep", Alb kíth "small buck",
          PGmc *kitt-i:na > OHG kizzin:n, but calls it a calling name,
          spontaneosly formed several places (they have to, since DEO doesn't
          know of any NWB), or perhaps metathesis, *ti-ki > *ki-ti-), PIE *digh-
          "goat" > PGmc *ti:Go:n- (> OHG ziga, German Ziege"), hypochoristically
          (there's that 'expressive' again) geminated > *tikki:na, OHG zicki:n,
          zicchi:, Sw.dial. ticka "female goat or sheep", Nw.dial. tikka "sheep".

          Ernout-Meillet
          'catulus, -ī m.: petit (d'un animal); puis rattaché, comme on l'a vu,
          à canis, e.g. Varr.L.L.9,74, canis, catulus, catellus; a désigné
          spécialement le "petit chien". Ancien, usuel.
          Dérivés:
          catulio:, -i:re: avoir envie de faire des petits, cf. equi:re, suri:re ;
          catuli:nus (catuli:na caro: "viande de chien");
          catulaster, m. terme d'amitié ou de tendresse.
          Catulus, catellus sont demeurés dans les langues romanes, en des
          acceptions diverses, cf. M.L.1771 et 1763.
          Cf. aussi le nom propre Catullus et sans doute Catilīna (Niedermann,
          Mnemosyne, 3e sér., 3 (1936), p.276 ) qui serait la forme phonétique
          de catuli:nus.
          Ombr. katel (acc.sg. katlu) "catulus". Seul rapprochement net.
          En dehors de cela, on peut penser au groupe à consonne géminée
          intérieure de irl. catt, qui désigne un petit animal (v. cattus) et à
          des mots qui évoquent l'idée de jeunes animaux:
          serbe kotiti "faire des petits", etc.;
          cf.Osthoff, Et. Parerga, I p.250; tout ceci en l'air.'

          This partially matches Møller's 'ON haðna MHG hatele "capra, haedus"'

          'kid' from PIE *gheid- "goat" corresponds to 'tit' from PIE *dhei-
          (redupl.?)




          Torsten
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