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Re[2]: [tied] V-, B-

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  • Brian M. Scott
    ... It turns out that it isn t and apparently never has been, so I ve no idea what D&R were thinking. The arms are D or à l aigle éployée de sable
    Message 1 of 106 , Jun 30, 2008
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      At 1:09:47 PM on Monday, June 30, 2008, tgpedersen wrote:

      >>> Vesontio, Vesuntio, Visontio, Bizantia, Bisontium,
      >>> Bisunzium, Besantio, Vesonticorum, Vesontiensium od.
      >>> Crisopolinorum civitas, Besantio,
      >>> Besançon, Stadt, Frankr. (Doubs)

      >> D&R: from the pre-IE *ves- 'mountain' (cf. mounts <Viso> and
      >> <Vésuve>) and the pre-Celt. suffix <-unt-> followed by the
      >> suffix <-ionem>, attracted to Low Latin <bison, bisontis>,
      >> whence the arms of the city.

      > Which presumably is a bison, also known as wisent. Hm.

      It turns out that it isn't and apparently never has been, so
      I've no idea what D&R were thinking. The arms are 'D'or à
      l'aigle éployée de sable soutenant de ses serres deux
      colonnes de gueules brochant sur les ailes' ('Or, an eagle
      displayed sable holding in its claws two antique columns
      gules surmounting its wings') and may be seen at
      <http://www.ngw.nl/int/fra/b/besancon.htm>, among many other
      places. The columns are found as early as 1276 and allude
      to the Roman ruins; the eagle alludes to its status as a
      free Imperial city since 1043.

      It's conceivable that the gold field is a play on OFr
      <besans> ~ <besant>: the German name is <Bisanz>.

    • tgpedersen
      ... Georgij A. Klimov Etymological Dictionary of the Kartvelian Languages ... CK *ter- : tr- to drag, pull : Georg. ter- : tr- to drag ; Megr. (n)tir-,
      Message 106 of 106 , Jun 8, 2009
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
        > > > > Henceforth I will refer to Latin 'mots populaires' with root
        > > > > /a/ as belonging to 'the (Latin) a-language'
        > > > > (which I assume, ie. accept as a working hypothesis, is
        > > > > Venetic).
        > >
        > > But Venetic retains all five short vowels, as is clear from the
        > > inscc. Therefore a Venetic substrate in Latin would only "pass
        > > the buck" regarding those "mots populaires".
        > >
        > As I noted some time back, it seems the Venet- name occurs with both
        > -e- and -a-. I assume the former is from an ablauting Venetic
        > dialect, the latter from a non-ablauting one.
        > Note also in my latest post:
        > 'Zum Vokalismus und Konsonantismus der einzelnen Formen ist zu
        > bemerken: auf *-e,- geht zurück -ja- (als 'normale' ostslavische
        > Entwicklung, vor allem unter dem Ton), Belege mit —i- deuten auf
        > unbetontes -ja-, gleiches wird für -y- gelten. Appellativa, die
        > einen Vokalismus Drag- (für *Drjag-) aufweisen, sind vor allem für
        > das Poles'e - Gebiet belegt und haben ihre Ursache im Charakter des
        > -r-, wie M. Jurkowski 151 klärt: 'Ukr. twarde r dialektalne,
        > zwl/aszcza poleskie.' Formen mit -e- endlich (dregvá, drjehvá) sind
        > Reflexe eines -ja- in unbetonter Stellung, man vergleiche zu den
        > ukrainischen Dialekten des Poles'e - Gebietes T. V. Nazarova,
        > Nekotorye osobennosti vokalizma ukrainskich pravoberez^nopolesskich
        > govorov, Poles'e, Moskva 1968, S. 67 - 100, speziell S. 96 (tablica
        > 2).'
        > In other words, a mixture of dreg- and drag-, which is hard to
        > explain.

        Georgij A. Klimov
        Etymological Dictionary of the Kartvelian Languages


        CK *ter- : tr- 'to drag, pull': Georg. ter- : tr- 'to drag'; Megr. (n)tir-, (n)t&r-; Laz tir-, tor-, tur-; Svan tir- : tr-.
        Verb stem. It is in use in Old Georgian (action noun (mo)treva- 'to drag', satromel- 'sweep net'). In some Georgian dialects (for example, in Xevs.) instead of the expected e we find a, which points to a very early nonfunctional alternation of these vowels. The Megrelian variants (cf. notion noun (n)tirua-) reflect only the zero grade. In Laz we can find both: the zero one (cf. tir-) and the e//a (cf. action noun o-tor-u). Consequently, the alternation *tar- : tr- is also of Georgian-Zan age. Megr. n at the beginning of the word must be a later augmentation. For Svan cf. action noun li-tr-in-e. Arm. t'rev gal 'to trail along, loaf about' seems to be based on the Georg. action noun.
        || Georgian, Svan: Wardrop (1911: 602). Zan: C^ikobava (1938: 281-282), where a different interpretation of the stem vocalism for Laz is proposed.


        CK *ter- : tr- 'to drink (wine)': Georg. tver- : tr- 'to get drunk'; Svan tr 'to drink, to get drunk'.
        Verb stem well known in Old Georgian (da daitrvnes mis tana 'and they drank with him' Gen. 43.34; cf. the derivatives mtrval- 'drunk', simtrvale- 'drunkenness', etc.). In Georgian the historically affixal (thematic) v is included in the stem as the result of a metathesis: *ter-v-> tver-. The e ablaut grade cannot be discerned in Svan (cf. action noun li-tr-e). According to Topuria, the Svan derivative stem in li-twn-e 'to give to drink' (cf. also na-tun 'drunk') goes back to *li-t&r-un-e. In the Zan languages the stem has been lost.
        || Wardrop (1911: 602).


        GZ *trt- 'to tremble': Georg. trt- 'to tremble, to shiver'; Megr. tirt-ol- 'to tremble; to fuss'; Laz tirt-in- 'to tremble'.
        The verb stem is attested in Old Georgian sources (action noun trtola-). In the Zan languages (cf. action noun Megr. tirtolua- Laz o-tirtin-u) it is extended by different affixes. Georgian and Zan reflexes are in conformity with sonant r. The Megrelian form's meaning is broadened. The stem has a sound-symbolic character: hence the analogies in the shape of the PIE *tres-: ters- and Turk. *titrä- 'to tremble'.


        GZ *-ek. : -(i)k. a verbal extension: Georg. -ek. : -(i)k.; Megr. -ak. : -(i)k.; Laz -ak. : -ik..
        Georgian-Zan inheritance which may be extracted from a number of verb stems: cf. *dr-ek.- : dr-ik.- : d-k.-, *px-ek.- : px-ik.-, *Gwr-ek.- : Gwr-ik.-, etc. Perhaps it reflects a former marker of the weakened (superficial) Aktionsart. Cf. also *-ex : -ix and *-e3^ : -i3^ in other stems.


        Remember that 'drink' (from *tr-ek-?) originally meant "get into the wet" (cf. 'drench')



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