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Re: The oddness of Gaelic words in p-

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  • tgpedersen
    ... http://dnghu.org/Indo-European-Languages/viewforum.php?f=13&sid=5a341258abb3261b7aae1ad952c54a0d ... We discussed some of them. The difference is that this
    Message 1 of 99 , Jun 1, 2008
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      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@...> wrote:
      >
      > At 4:40:57 AM on Saturday, May 31, 2008, tgpedersen wrote:
      >
      > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "mkelkar2003" <swatimkelkar@> wrote:
      >
      > >
      http://dnghu.org/Indo-European-Languages/viewforum.php?f=13&sid=5a341258abb3261b7aae1ad952c54a0d
      >
      > > Thank you, MKelkar. Because, in it, I find MacBain's An
      > > Etymological Dictionary of the Gaelic Language, with 2
      > > pages worth of words in p-
      >
      > You found it before, and we went through this just under a
      > year ago.

      We discussed some of them. The difference is that this time I know
      what substrate to ascribe them to.


      > It appears that you'd still rather rely on uninformed impressions
      > and a very dated work than do any serious investigation.

      I was relying on McBain's claiming those words occur in Gaelic. Don't
      they any more?
      And as to serious investigation: I present my half-baked ides here on
      Cybalist, because I know people like you will be much more motivated,
      thus more successful, in finding counterarguments than I ever would.


      > > http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb28.html#MB.P
      > > http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb29.html
      > > http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb30.html
      > > which is odd, since Gaelic is a q-Celtic language.
      >
      > > Some of the frequent explanations from Latin are
      > > undoubtedly correct, but you're struck by the tortuousness
      > > of some of the derivations,
      >
      > No, *you* are.

      Yes, and you are not. So?


      > > both the semantic and the morphological ones ('formed from',
      > > indeed),
      >
      > Your incredulity is misplaced. 'Formed from X' appears to
      > be MacBain's abbreviation for 'adapted from X to
      > Irish/Gaelic phonology', or at least to include that sense.

      And in the rest of the cases you apparently don't know know what to
      make of it either, but you'd rather die than admit it.


      > An example is the entry for <pàisd> 'a child':
      >
      > Irish páisde; formed from Middle English páge, boy,
      > Scottish page, boy, now English page.
      >
      > In fact Middle English or Anglo-Norman <page>, /pa:dZ&/ or
      > the like, was borrowed into Irish as <páitse>, representing
      > something like /pa:t^s^&/. Modern <páiste> 'a child' and
      > Sc.Gael. <pàisde> ~ <pàiste> have metathesized the cluster.

      Feilberg: Ordbog over det jyske Almuesmaal (1894 - 1904):
      pajs "small child"
      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/30336
      How do you explain that? Loan into Jysk from English or Gaelic or
      French? Loan from Jysk into English and Gaelic and French? AFAIK the
      French 'page' doesn't have a proper derivation from Latin either. And
      don't forget, it's a word in p-, so 'pajs' can't be a Germanic word.


      > Derivation of EIr <páb(h)áil> 'pavement' (whence <páil>) and
      > <páb(h)álta> 'paved' from English <pave> isn't quite so
      > clearcut, but it is in fact quite plausible, and if you
      > don't know why, you're not in a position to be skeptical.

      Hahaha. You made my day.
      You don't know how, so I'm not in a position to be skeptical?
      Try this one in stead:
      http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/KuhnText/07pauw-treten.html



      Torsten
    • Patrick Ryan
      ... From: Richard Wordingham To: Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [tied] English
      Message 99 of 99 , Jun 23, 2008
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Richard Wordingham" <richard.wordingham@...>
        To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 8:40 PM
        Subject: Re: [tied] English Lack of /a/ (was: The oddness of Gaelic words in
        p-)


        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@...>
        wrote:

        > Then what about PIE <a:>? Do you believe it was a lowish central
        vowel also?

        Remind me, where does it occur? AFAIK Sanskrit /a:/ is a proper low
        vowel.

        > Why did <a> not survive in PIE?

        Pre-PIE /a/ must have fronted (perhaps even raised to [æ]) and then
        perhaps got pushed out by new, central /a/ of various origins. Cf.
        varieties of English for which '/a/' is untenable as a description of
        the vowel of <bad>.

        Richard.

        ***

        Patrick:

        Richard, speaking of short vowels only, I wonder if you agree with Miguel
        and myself in believing that

        pre-PIE *Ci/a/u

        became

        late pre-PIE *CYV, *CV, *CWV


        which subsequently became

        PIE *CA (where *A is the Ablautvokal: *e / *o / *° / *Ø)


        ***
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