Re: The oddness of Gaelic words in p-
- --- In email@example.com, "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@...> wrote:
> At 4:40:57 AM on Saturday, May 31, 2008, tgpedersen wrote:
> > --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "mkelkar2003" <swatimkelkar@> wrote:
>We discussed some of them. The difference is that this time I know
> > Thank you, MKelkar. Because, in it, I find MacBain's An
> > Etymological Dictionary of the Gaelic Language, with 2
> > pages worth of words in p-
> You found it before, and we went through this just under a
> year ago.
what substrate to ascribe them to.
> It appears that you'd still rather rely on uninformed impressionsI was relying on McBain's claiming those words occur in Gaelic. Don't
> and a very dated work than do any serious investigation.
they any more?
And as to serious investigation: I present my half-baked ides here on
Cybalist, because I know people like you will be much more motivated,
thus more successful, in finding counterarguments than I ever would.
> > http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb28.html#MB.PYes, and you are not. So?
> > http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb29.html
> > http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb30.html
> > which is odd, since Gaelic is a q-Celtic language.
> > Some of the frequent explanations from Latin are
> > undoubtedly correct, but you're struck by the tortuousness
> > of some of the derivations,
> No, *you* are.
> > both the semantic and the morphological ones ('formed from',And in the rest of the cases you apparently don't know know what to
> > indeed),
> Your incredulity is misplaced. 'Formed from X' appears to
> be MacBain's abbreviation for 'adapted from X to
> Irish/Gaelic phonology', or at least to include that sense.
make of it either, but you'd rather die than admit it.
> An example is the entry for <pàisd> 'a child':Feilberg: Ordbog over det jyske Almuesmaal (1894 - 1904):
> Irish páisde; formed from Middle English páge, boy,
> Scottish page, boy, now English page.
> In fact Middle English or Anglo-Norman <page>, /pa:dZ&/ or
> the like, was borrowed into Irish as <páitse>, representing
> something like /pa:t^s^&/. Modern <páiste> 'a child' and
> Sc.Gael. <pàisde> ~ <pàiste> have metathesized the cluster.
pajs "small child"
How do you explain that? Loan into Jysk from English or Gaelic or
French? Loan from Jysk into English and Gaelic and French? AFAIK the
French 'page' doesn't have a proper derivation from Latin either. And
don't forget, it's a word in p-, so 'pajs' can't be a Germanic word.
> Derivation of EIr <páb(h)áil> 'pavement' (whence <páil>) andHahaha. You made my day.
> <páb(h)álta> 'paved' from English <pave> isn't quite so
> clearcut, but it is in fact quite plausible, and if you
> don't know why, you're not in a position to be skeptical.
You don't know how, so I'm not in a position to be skeptical?
Try this one in stead:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Wordingham" <richard.wordingham@...>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] English Lack of /a/ (was: The oddness of Gaelic words in
--- In email@example.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@...>
> Then what about PIE <a:>? Do you believe it was a lowish central
Remind me, where does it occur? AFAIK Sanskrit /a:/ is a proper low
> Why did <a> not survive in PIE?
Pre-PIE /a/ must have fronted (perhaps even raised to [æ]) and then
perhaps got pushed out by new, central /a/ of various origins. Cf.
varieties of English for which '/a/' is untenable as a description of
the vowel of <bad>.
Richard, speaking of short vowels only, I wonder if you agree with Miguel
and myself in believing that
late pre-PIE *CYV, *CV, *CWV
which subsequently became
PIE *CA (where *A is the Ablautvokal: *e / *o / *° / *Ø)