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Re: gast

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  • tgpedersen
    ... The sense troop on the side http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/55557 auxiliaries , in Germanic, NWBlock and Latin, might make it
    Message 1 of 27 , Apr 25 1:13 AM
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      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "jouppe" <jouppe@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "jouppe" <jouppe@> wrote:
      > >
      > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Peter P" <roskis@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Then one would also like to explain Permian cognates...
      > > >
      > > > Zyrian 'goz' and Votyak 'kuz'.
      > > >
      >
      > >
      > > The etymology Gmc. *xanso: => finnic, saami & permic without
      > > irregularity in the sound correspondances on the Finno-Permian
      > > side comes very close to a chronological paradox and one should
      > > probably therefore assume <= pre-Grimm paleo-gmc *kanso: or even
      > > older *kansa:
      > >
      >
      > I checked: "without irregularity" is an overstatement here, there is
      > irregularity. So Permic should have borrowed the word from a more
      > western dialect if it is related. The borrowing being old, it may
      > still ba an attestation of anciennity of the Saami-Finnic word and
      > may be it bears some independent testimony of its meaning, but we
      > are on more shaky ground here.
      >
      > SSA also gives a Mari word here with a question mark: kuz@k,
      > kuts^@k 'dowry'. At first glance I don't think it belongs here.
      >
      The sense 'troop on the side'
      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/55557
      'auxiliaries', in Germanic, NWBlock and Latin, might make it belong.


      Torstn
    • fournet.arnaud
      ... =============== This word can be a derivative of PU *kom man hence *kom-so. There is no need for a substrate. and this is another LW of Germanic taken
      Message 2 of 27 , Apr 25 1:57 AM
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        > > What kind of scenario would permit both
        > > xx substrate -> Finn kansa, Gmc. *xanso: / Saami guos'si -> Gmc.
        >> *gasti- > > etc?
        > > Torsten
        > >
        >
        > Then one would also like to explain Permian cognates...
        > Zyrian 'goz' and Votyak 'kuz'.
        > > I don't think that it is certain that Fin. 'kansa' < *hansa:,
        > although > it is a likely possibility.
        >
        > We should also look at Fin. 'kanssa' - with < kansa, which falls
        > more in line with the Permian meanings of - pair.
        >
        > Peter P
        >
        ===============

        This word can be a derivative of PU *kom "man"
        hence *kom-so.
        There is no need for a substrate.
        and this is another LW of Germanic taken from Uralic.
        Cf. handiz < *kom-ti

        And once again, the question is
        Where did Germanic get that early loanword ?

        Arnaud

        ==========
      • jouppe
        ... Gmc. ... ... therefore ... is ... in ... postposition ... understanding ... an ... One more remark: If Paleo-Germanic *kansa: would be a borrowing
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 25 10:14 AM
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          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "jouppe" <jouppe@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Peter P" <roskis@> wrote:
          > >
          > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > So, assignment:
          > > >
          > > > What kind of scenario would permit both
          > > > xx substrate -> Finn kansa, Gmc. *xanso: / Saami guos'si ->
          Gmc.
          > *gasti-
          > > > etc?
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Torsten
          > > >
          > >
          > > Then one would also like to explain Permian cognates...
          > >
          > > Zyrian 'goz' and Votyak 'kuz'.
          > >
          > > I don't think that it is certain that Fin. 'kansa' < *hansa:,
          > although
          > > it is a likely possibility.
          > >
          > > We should also look at Fin. 'kanssa' - with < kansa, which falls
          > more
          > > in line with the Permian meanings of - pair.
          > >
          > > Where is Jouppe when we need him?
          > >
          > > Peter P
          > >
          >

          <snip>

          >
          > Fi. kanssa (postposition: 'with, in the company of') < kans(a)+ssa
          > (contracted under weak "stress") or perhaps < kans(a)+na? seems a
          > younger development to me due to the cluster -nss- and will
          therefore
          > not contribute to the etymology of the older word.
          >
          > Some value this derivative may have in that it may bear independent
          > testimony of some Late/Middle-Proto-Finnic meaning of the word it
          is
          > derived from.
          >
          > The meaning of 'guest, stranger' in Saami and 'pair, man and wife'
          in
          > Permic could easily be parallelled by the meaning of the
          postposition
          > kanssa 'with, in the company of' and provide the key to
          understanding
          > the semantic history of this word.
          >
          > But then again the semantics of Late-Proto Finnic (and the later
          > borrowed Saami gaddže) matches Germanic better.
          >
          > The more I look on this equation I come to think there is a more
          > economic solution, considering the mysterious origin of *xanso: the
          > wide distribution on the Finno-Permian side and the indication of
          an
          > older primary meaning slightly divergent from Germanic:
          >
          > Paleo-Germanic may have borrowed this word from Middle Proto-Finnic
          > before Grimm's shift.
          >
          > Jouppe
          >

          One more remark: If Paleo-Germanic *kansa: would be a borrowing from
          Proto Finnic-Saami *kansa the latter would still be in need of an
          etymology, because a cluster *-ns- is very unlikely to have occured
          in Proto-Uralic and I see no morpheme boundary here either.
          So where would we have an older IE-original for this word?

          Jouppe
        • Piotr Gasiorowski
          ... I like Herman Seldeslacht s etymological proposal: *xanso:
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 25 11:15 AM
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            On 2008-04-25 19:14, jouppe wrote:

            > One more remark: If Paleo-Germanic *kansa: would be a borrowing from
            > Proto Finnic-Saami *kansa the latter would still be in need of an
            > etymology, because a cluster *-ns- is very unlikely to have occured
            > in Proto-Uralic and I see no morpheme boundary here either.
            > So where would we have an older IE-original for this word?

            I like Herman Seldeslacht's etymological proposal: *xanso: < *kóN-(s)sa:
            < *kóm-dH(h1)tah2, the collective of a participial derivative of *kom- +
            *dHeh1- 'put together, gather'. It makes sense and explains the accent.

            Piotr
          • Piotr Gasiorowski
            ... I mean Seldeslachts (s). Piotr
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 25 11:19 AM
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              On 2008-04-25 20:15, Piotr Gasiorowski wrote:

              > I like Herman Seldeslacht's etymological proposal: ...

              I mean Seldeslachts'(s).

              Piotr
            • tgpedersen
              ... I had a hunch (no pun intended, not consciously, at least) that these two entries might be related in some weird way, given their unusual construction: DEO
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 25 12:39 PM
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                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:
                >
                > On 2008-04-25 19:14, jouppe wrote:
                >
                > > One more remark: If Paleo-Germanic *kansa: would be a borrowing
                > > from Proto Finnic-Saami *kansa the latter would still be in need
                > > of an etymology, because a cluster *-ns- is very unlikely to have
                > > occured in Proto-Uralic and I see no morpheme boundary here
                > > either.
                > > So where would we have an older IE-original for this word?
                >
                > I like Herman Seldeslacht's etymological proposal: *xanso: <
                > *kóN-(s)sa: < *kóm-dH(h1)tah2, the collective of a participial
                > derivative of *kom- + *dHeh1- 'put together, gather'. It makes sense
                > and explains the accent.

                I had a hunch (no pun intended, not consciously, at least) that these
                two entries might be related in some weird way, given their unusual
                construction:

                DEO
                'hente ["fetch"]v., ODa. hentæ, No. hente, No.dial. hemta, henta, Sw.
                hämta, ON heimta "take home, fetch", OE ha:mettan [sic] "to house";
                from Gmc. *haimatjan, deriv. with -te to I. hjem ["home"] with the
                sense "take home"; cf MHG heimsen "take home". - Same word as håndtere

                håndtere v. "treat, use, work with"; MDa. hantere "carry out", No.
                håndtere, Sw. hantera; loan from MLG hante:ren "visit often; trade;
                achive", which like Germ. hantieren "treat, work with" is loaned via
                MDu. hantiern from OFr. hanter "live in; visit often; go back and
                forth" (whence Engl. haunt ...), which really is from Gmc.: OE
                ha:metan [sic] "to house, shelter", same word as hente. - The word in
                Da. and Da. is influnced by hånd ["hand"].'

                *haimat-ja- ?


                Torsten
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