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Re: Kossack's Conclusions

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  • tgpedersen
    ... Digression: From Peschel, note 195 Gegenüber seinen früheren Darlegungen (1956/57b), die den Arbeitsbegriff Ostgermanen gelten lassen und in denen
    Message 1 of 88 , Mar 20, 2008
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      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
      >
      > This
      > >
      > http://www.novaroma.de/nr/provincia/karten/limes2.htm
      > > implies the last version was built under Antoninus Pius.
      > > BTW, check the color codes and the corresponding periods of the
      > > various castella; it seems there are traces of Drusus' castella
      > > too in the Wetterau (it's easier to make that out by the
      > > numbers than by the colors).
      >
      > ****GK: Perhaps n. 8 and 9 near Wetzlar on the Lan.
      > Maybe ns. 5,6,7 near Friedberg.****
      >
      >
      > I'll check what Peschel has to say.
      >
      > ****GK: Please do. Also: see if there's anything more
      > precise about the extent and end of Przeworsk in
      > Thuringia.****
      > >

      Digression:
      From Peschel, note 195
      'Gegenüber seinen früheren Darlegungen (1956/57b), die den
      Arbeitsbegriff "Ostgermanen" gelten lassen und in denen bündig von
      "eingewanderten Ostgermanen" (S. 64) die Rede ist, rückt R. Hachmanns
      neueste Argumentation die Dinge merkwürdig ins Zwielicht, vgl. 1970,
      S. 303 f. gegen S. 242: während es hier, wo es um die oben umrissene
      Fernwirkung geht, noch immer heißt: "schon früh sind in
      Mitteldeutschland und in der Wetterau Grab- und Siedlungsfunde
      'ostgermanischen' Charakters aufgefallen", die, so weiter, einem
      "Bevölkerungszustrom" ihre Existenz verdanken, liest man dagegen dort,
      "daß es auch keine archäologische 'ostgermanische' Gruppe gibt", da,
      dies als Begründung, im Osten bekanntlich eine Untergliederung möglich
      sei. Es kann jedoch jetzt und ebensowenig für die römische Kaiserzeit
      bestritten werden, daß die Hauptglieder, die R. Hachmann hier im Auge
      hat - Przeworsk- und Oksywiekultur —, ihrerseits enger zusammengehören
      als nur eines von ihnen mit den archäologischen Erscheinungen an Elbe
      und Saale.'

      "In contrast to his earlier expositions [R.Hachmann: Ostgermanische
      Funde der Spätlatènezeit in Mittel- und Westdeutschland. Archaeologia
      Geographica 5/6, p. 55—68] which use the provisional concept of 'East
      Germani' and in which he refers to 'immigrated East Germani', R.
      Hachmann's most recent line of argument moves the matter into a
      strange half-light, cf [R. Hachmann: Die Goten und Skandinavien.
      Berlin], p 303 against p. 242: whereas in the latter, when referring
      to the long distance effets sketched above, he still states: "already
      early the grave and settlement finds of East Germanic character were
      noticed", one reads in the former "that also there exists no
      archaeological 'East Germanic'", since, as he reasons, it is
      well-known that a subdivision can be made in the East. However, it
      can't be disputed, neither for now nor for Roman Imperial times the
      key elements which R. Hachmann is referring to here - Przeworsk and
      Oksywie culture - belong more closely together than any of them with
      the archaeological phenomena on the Elbe and Saale rivers."

      That should clear up some of your earlier questions.

      To get back to your question: I can't find anyting about the end of
      the Wetterau incursion in Peschel.
      The only reference I've been able to find to the end of the Wetterau
      Przeworsk is from Hachmann, here:
      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/50599

      As for the Thuringian Przeworsk culture:
      Immediately north of the new temporary Augustean Limes
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_Germanicus
      http://www.novaroma.de/nr/provincia/karten/limes2.htm
      lived the Chatti
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatti
      the target of Roman incursions
      http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/histories.4.iv.html
      Kuhn makes much of the geminated -tt- in their name and that of their
      capital Mattium. PIE -tt- had become -ss- in Celtic, Italic and mostly
      that, but occasionally -st- in Germanic, so the -tt- of Chatti and
      Mattium must have some other origin. Traditionally it would be derived
      by Kluge's law from -tn-, but Kuhn notes the alternation -ss-/-tt- in
      Germanic *hatt- "hat" / Latin cassis "helmet"
      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/50267
      etc etc
      but Kuhn also points out the Celtic Tricasses, cf. for the last
      element of the name
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viducasses
      (Tricastini is also found in the sources)
      the Chattuari, alternatively Chasuari
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chattuarii
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chasuarii
      on the last element here, vf Ripuarii, inhabitants on the Rhine
      If we assume that the source of the word, whichever it was, could
      alternate
      *katt-/*kant-/*ka:t-/*kass-/*kans-/*ka:s-
      in the style of Schrijver's language of geminates
      we could include names as
      Canninefates
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cananefates
      Cassius Dio's name for the Chatti, Kenni ('a Celtic tribe')
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatti
      the modern name Hessen
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesse
      which, in spite of the article, can't be a straight High German
      continuation of Chatti, which would give *Hetzen
      nor can the names of the city of Kassel
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassel
      be derived from Latin Castella

      Kuhn: "Das römeische Kriegswesen im germanischen Wortschatz"
      ' Ich kam deshalb schon vor langem auf die Vermutung, die erste, sich
      nur ganz unklar abzeichnende germanische Hundertschaftsgliederung
      könnte mit der Aufstellung von Reiterverbänden zusammengehangen haben.
      Mich bestärkte darin das centeni ex singulis pagis sunt, idque ipsum
      inter suos vocantur (Germ. Kap. 6), das Tacitus zwar nicht von den
      Reitern selbst, sondern von den ihnen zugeteilten Fußkämpfern sagt.
      Aber dahinter wird doch stehen, daß jeder pagus eine Schwadron von 100
      Reitern — mitsamt der festgesetzten Zahl von Begleitmannschaften zu
      Fuß — zu stellen hatte, die dann auch Hundertschaften hießen. Es gibt
      ja auch noch manches andre, das auf ein sehr hohes Alter germanischer
      Hundertschaften deutet, und der Krieg ist nun einmal der Vater aller
      Dinge. Mir scheint hier namentlich den ostniederländischen
      Landschaftsnamen Twi:-hanti und *Þri:-hanti (Twente und Drente) eine
      große Bedeutung zuzukommen. Sie werden den schwedischen
      Ti-(h)unda-land (Zehnhundertland) usw. nahverwandt sein, jedoch mit
      einer Entwicklung von idg. *km.tom ,hundert', welche die
      nichtgermanische Zwischenstufe *kant- voraussetzt, dem kelt. *kantom
      gleich, jedoch mit der späten germanischen Verschiebung des Anlauts-k-
      zu h- ... .'

      "Therefore already early the idea occurred to me that the indistinctly
      appearing Germanic organizaton by Hundertschaften [groups of hundred]
      might have to do with the deployment of cavalry units. I was
      strengthened in this belief by 'centeni ex singulis pagis sunt, idque
      ipsum inter suos vocantur' (Germ. chap. 6), although Tacitus does not
      speak here of the men of the cavalry themselves, but of the men of the
      infantry assigned to them. But behind that must be a fact that every
      pagus should supply a squadron of 100 cavalry with the settled number
      of accompanying infantry, which was then called a Hundertschaft. After
      all there is so much else pointing to a high age of the Germanic
      Hundertschaften and war is after all the father of all things. It
      seems to me in particular the names of the Eastern Netherlands region
      names Twi:-hanti und *Þri:-hanti (Twente und Drente) deserve to be
      recognized as important. They would be closely related to the Swedish
      Ti-(h)unda-land (ten hundred land), but with a development from PIE
      *km.tom "hundred" which presupposes the non-Germanic intermediate
      stage *kant-, equal to the Celtic *kantom, but with the late Gewrmanic
      sshift from anlaut k- to h-."

      Other possible cognates:
      Germanic *xanso:- "community of people" (in whichever sense)
      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/24979
      BTW Finnish kansa "people" is cognate to the Estonian suffix -ga of
      the recent comitative ("with") case, cf. ON hos prep. "at, chez".
      Perhaps also NWBlock Dutch kant, German Kante "edge" (Celtic *kant-
      Engl. Kent), if the derivation is not from the number hundred, but
      from the cavalry protecting the flanks of the infantry (cf. Dutch
      vierkant "rectangle")? NWBlock *kant-ja:- > NWGerm. *xanso:-?


      Torsten
    • Torsten
      ... Full quote: centuria f.(cf. decuria): Varr., L.L.5,88, centuria, qui sub uno centurione sunt, quorum centenarius iustus numerus. Désigne d abord un
      Message 88 of 88 , Dec 14, 2011
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
        >
        > > "Therefore already early the idea occurred to me that the
        > > indistinctly appearing Germanic organizaton by Hundertschaften
        > > [groups of hundred] might have to do with the deployment of
        > > cavalry units. I was strengthened in this belief by 'centeni ex
        > > singulis pagis sunt, idque ipsum inter suos vocantur' (Germ. chap.
        > > 6), although Tacitus does not speak here of the men of the cavalry
        > > themselves, but of the men of the infantry assigned to them. But
        > > behind that must be a fact that every pagus should supply a
        > > squadron of 100 cavalry with the settled number of accompanying
        > > infantry, which was then called a Hundertschaft. After all there
        > > is so much else pointing to a high age of the Germanic
        > > Hundertschaften and war is after all the father of all things. It
        > > seems to me in particular the names of the Eastern Netherlands
        > > region names Twi:-hanti und *Þri:-hanti (Twente and Drente)
        > > deserve to be recognized as important. They would be closely
        > > related to the Swedish Ti-(h)unda-land (ten hundred land), but
        > > with a development from PIE *km.tom "hundred" which presupposes
        > > the non-Germanic intermediate stage *kant-, equal to the Celtic
        > > *kantom, but with the late Germanic shift from anlaut k- to h-."
        > >
        > > Other possible cognates:
        > > Germanic *xanso:- "community of people" (in whichever sense)
        > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/24979
        > > BTW Finnish kansa "people" is cognate to the Estonian suffix -ga
        > > of the recent comitative ("with") case, cf. ON hos prep. "at,
        > > chez". Perhaps also NWBlock Dutch kant, German Kante "edge"
        > > (Celtic *kant- Engl. Kent), if the derivation is not from the
        > > number hundred, but from the cavalry protecting the flanks of the
        > > infantry (cf. Dutch vierkant "rectangle")? NWBlock *kant-ja:- >
        > > NWGerm. *xanso:-?
        >
        > I should mention that the quote from Tacutus' Germania comes from
        > the following context: 'Definitur et numerus; centeni ex singulis
        > pagis sunt, idque ipsum inter suos vocantur, et quod primo numerus
        > fuit, iam nomen et honor est. Acies per cuneos componitur.' tr.
        > "Their number is fixed; a hundred from each canton; and from this
        > they take their name among their countrymen, so that what was
        > originally a mere number has now become a title of distinction.
        > Their line of battle is drawn up in a wedge-like formation."
        >
        > According to Ernout-Meillet, the Roman centuria seemed to have been
        > at first a cavalry division.

        Full quote:
        'centuria f.(cf. decuria):
        Varr., L.L.5,88, centuria, qui sub uno centurione sunt, quorum centenarius iustus numerus.

        Désigne d'abord un groupe de cent cavaliers d'après
        T.L.1,13,8, eodem tempore [a Romulo] et centuriae tres equitum conscriptae sunt, Ramnenses ab Romulo, ab T. Tatio Titienses appellati, Lucerum nominis et originis causa incerta est;
        puis une division de citoyens qu'on attribue à Servius Tullius, cf.
        T.L.4,4,2, census in ciuitate et discriptio centuriarum classiumque non erat, a Ser. Tullio facta est.

        Cette division est peut-être d'origine étrusque d'après
        Festus 358,21, rituales nominantur Etruscorum libri in quibus perscriptum est... quomodo tribus, curiae, centuriae distribuantur.
        Cf. centuria praerogātīua, etc.

        La centurie comprend théoriquement cent hommes, et peut-être ce chiffre était-il fixe à l'origine; mais il a varié tant à l'armée qu'à la ville, et centuria n'a plus eu avec centum qu'un rapport étymologique, e.g.
        Caes. B.C. 3,91,3, eum electi milites circiter CXX uoluntarii eiusdem centuriae prosecuti sunt.

        La centurie qui désignait d'abord, semble-t-il, une division de cavalerie a désigné ensuite une division de fantassins [infantry], tandis que turma était réservé à la cavalerie (Végèce, Mil.2,14; v. Thés. III 831, 48); cf. l'évolution de sens de classis.

        Un autre sens de centuria est: surface de 2300 arpents. Explication peu vraisemblable dans
        Varr. L.L.5,35, centuria primum a centum iugeribus dicta est, post duplicata retinuit nomen;
        la centurie valant 200 arpents au minimum. Étymologie plus plausible dans
        Sic. Flacc., Grom., p. 153,26, centuriis... uocabulum datum ex eo; cum antiqui Romanorum agrum ex hoste captum uictori populo per bina iugera partiti sunt, centenis hominibus ducentena iugera dederunt, et ex hoc facto centuria iuste appellata est; cf.
        P.F.47,1, centuriatus ager in ducena iugera definitus, quia Romulus centenis ciuibus ducena iugera tribuit.
        Du reste la surface de la centurie est variable, cf. Sic. Flacc, Grom. 159,9.

        Dérivés:
        centuriō; doublet populaire ancien (fait sur patrōnus?),
        centuriōnus, d'après P.F.43,10 qui cite aussi cūriōnus et decuriōnus, epolōnus (irl. cétur);
        centuriālis;
        centuriātus (d'où centuriō, -ās);
        centuriōnātus, -ūs (et centuriātus);
        centuriōnicus;
        succenturiō,-ās.

        La formation de centuria et de decuria (v. ce mot) est peu claire. Une forme ancienne est indiquée par
        v. sl. sÅ­toricejo, "cent fois",
        lit. šimteriόpas "centuple",
        v. isl. hundari,
        v.h.a. huntari "centaine".

        Le thème cento- sert de premier terme à des composés, dont beaucoup ont été fabriqués sur des modèles grecs:
        centarchus M.L.1810;
        centi-ceps (Hor. = ´εκατονκάρανος, -κέφαλος);
        centimanus (= `εκατόγχειρ, Hor.Ov.);
        centinōdia (Marcell.) M.L.1811a;
        centipes M.L.1813 centipeda, -pedium;
        centipelliō M.L.1812;
        centuplex,
        centuplicō, -ās, et
        centuplus;
        cf. aussi les juxtaposés
        centu(m) pondium, centum uirī d'où centumuir.
        Pour ce thème, cf.
        skr. çata-,
        v.sl. sÅ­to,
        got. hunda-,
        tandis que le grec a généralisé ´εκατον- au premier terme des composés.'

        From which we learn the interconnection between the organization of land and the organization of the army.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arpent
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugerum
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Roman_units_of_measurement

        And on the use of the plough when taking new land (from other people):
        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/60436
        and surroundings


        It still doesn't sound all IE to me.



        Torsten
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