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Res: Res: [tied] Swiftness of Indra

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  • Joao S. Lopes
    Forgive my ignorance, but...what is BMAC? ... De: george knysh Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Enviadas: Terça-feira, 4 de Março de 2008
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 4, 2008
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      Forgive my ignorance, but...what is BMAC?

      ----- Mensagem original ----
      De: george knysh <gknysh@...>
      Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
      Enviadas: Terça-feira, 4 de Março de 2008 12:19:01
      Assunto: Re: Res: [tied] Swiftness of Indra


      --- "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@yahoo. com.br> wrote:

      > Intara = Indara (-sh) in Mitanni?
      >
      > If there is *yNdro, there should be also a *yNdno- ?

      ****GK: Note BTW that Lubotsky and Witzel consider
      "Indra" to be an IIr borrowing from the BMAC language,
      with no PIE roots. Cf. e.g. Lubotsky's "THe
      Indo-Iranian substratum" in the 2001 Carpelan-Parpola
      et al. volume 'Early contacts between Uralic and
      Indo-European' ****

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    • george knysh
      ****GK: The Bactria Margiana Archaeological Complex . You ll find some info at the link provided by Torsten. Francesco Brighenti has a pdf of Witzel with much
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 4, 2008
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        ****GK: The "Bactria Margiana Archaeological Complex".
        You'll find some info at the link provided by Torsten.
        Francesco Brighenti has a pdf of Witzel with much info
        about this which he kindly sent to some on request.
        There is also material in Wikipedia.****


        --- "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...> wrote:

        > Forgive my ignorance, but...what is BMAC?
        >
        > ----- Mensagem original ----
        > De: george knysh <gknysh@...>
        > Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
        > Enviadas: Terça-feira, 4 de Março de 2008 12:19:01
        > Assunto: Re: Res: [tied] Swiftness of Indra
        >
        >
        > --- "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@yahoo. com.br> wrote:
        >
        > > Intara = Indara (-sh) in Mitanni?
        > >
        > > If there is *yNdro, there should be also a *yNdno-
        > ?
        >
        > ****GK: Note BTW that Lubotsky and Witzel consider
        > "Indra" to be an IIr borrowing from the BMAC
        > language,
        > with no PIE roots. Cf. e.g. Lubotsky's "THe
        > Indo-Iranian substratum" in the 2001
        > Carpelan-Parpola
        > et al. volume 'Early contacts between Uralic and
        > Indo-European' ****
        >
        > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
        > _________ _
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      • Joao S. Lopes
        If gandharva/gand&r&Ba came from BMCA, Greek kentauros could be related too... It makes me remind my past idea that Koios/Phoibe were telated to Finnic
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 4, 2008
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          If gandharva/gand&r&Ba came from BMCA, Greek kentauros could be related too... It makes me remind my past idea that Koios/Phoibe were telated to Finnic Kuu/Paiva from some (odd) way.
          I would add to these words the mythical dogs of Yama: karvara/s^arbala and Greek Kerberos.


          ----- Mensagem original ----
          De: george knysh <gknysh@...>
          Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
          Enviadas: Terça-feira, 4 de Março de 2008 12:50:02
          Assunto: Re: Res: [tied] Swiftness of Indra


          --- Patrick Ryan <proto-language@ msn.com> wrote:

          > George,
          >
          > is their argument simply that they cannot identify a
          > suitable PIE root?
          >
          >
          > Patrick

          ****GK: I think so. I'll check it out presently.** **

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        • tgpedersen
          ... related too... It makes me remind my past idea that Koios/Phoibe were telated to Finnic Kuu/Paiva from some (odd) way. ... karvara/s^arbala and Greek
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 4, 2008
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            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...> wrote:
            >
            > If gandharva/gand&r&Ba came from BMCA, Greek kentauros could be
            related too... It makes me remind my past idea that Koios/Phoibe were
            telated to Finnic Kuu/Paiva from some (odd) way.
            > I would add to these words the mythical dogs of Yama:
            karvara/s^arbala and Greek Kerberos.
            >

            FWIW:
            Greek pho:s "light"
            http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/bHA.html
            Estonian päev, -a "day", päevitama "sunbathe", päevitunud "sun-burned"


            Torsten
          • fournet.arnaud
            ... related too... It makes me remind my past idea that Koios/Phoibe were telated to Finnic Kuu/Paiva from some (odd) way. ... karvara/s^arbala and Greek
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 4, 2008
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              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...> wrote:
              >
              > If gandharva/gand&r&Ba came from BMCA, Greek kentauros could be
              related too... It makes me remind my past idea that Koios/Phoibe were
              telated to Finnic Kuu/Paiva from some (odd) way.
              > I would add to these words the mythical dogs of Yama:
              karvara/s^arbala and Greek Kerberos.
              >

              FWIW:
              Greek pho:s "light"
              http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/bHA.html
              Estonian päev, -a "day", päevitama "sunbathe", päevitunud "sun-burned"

              Torsten

              ==========

              The connection of Finnish päjvä
              with Greek Phoibê seems impossible.

              Internal analysis of Uralic data
              in particular in Permic shows the
              PU proto-form was *baj-
              with a variant *baj-wo
              It meant "light, day" and "lightning".
              It's hard to suggest something in PIE
              for this *baj PU root.

              It's kind of mixed up with another
              root *puh- *poh "fire / to cook"
              obviously cognate to PIE *puH2- "fire"

              In any case, päjvä has nothing to do
              with Phoibê.

              Arnaud

              ======================
            • Joao S. Lopes
              -nr- in Sanskrit -ndr- ? I think it doesn t occurs regularly, cf. *h2ner-/*h2nr- ever nr-, never -ndr- (opposite to Greek, where nr gives ndr, cf. andros)
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 4, 2008
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                -nr- in Sanskrit > -ndr- ? I think it doesn't occurs regularly, cf. *h2ner-/*h2nr- > ever nr-, never -ndr- (opposite to Greek, where nr gives ndr, cf. andros)

                But this epenthetical -d- is possible if the word is not IE.
                Indra < *Inra ?


                ----- Mensagem original ----
                De: Patrick Ryan <proto-language@...>
                Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                Enviadas: Terça-feira, 4 de Março de 2008 16:26:51
                Assunto: Re: Res: [tied] Swiftness of Indra



                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "george knysh" <gknysh@yahoo. com>
                To: <cybalist@yahoogroup s.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 12:01 PM
                Subject: Re: Res: [tied] Swiftness of Indra

                >
                > --- Patrick Ryan <proto-language@ msn.com> wrote:
                >
                > > Thank you, George.
                > >
                > > What do you think of Lubotsky's reasoning. I think
                > > it is hilarious.
                > >
                > >
                > > Patrick
                >
                > ****GK: I'm not competent to judge the linguistics of
                > the issue. But I must confess that I find both
                > Lubotsky and Witzel somewhat unconvincing on
                > alternative grounds. They both seem to think that
                > everything connected to the well-known Soma/Haoma
                > rituals in Indic and Iranic paleohistorical culture
                > (as reflected in texts) was acquired rather late, and
                > as a result of contacts with the BAMC people. Now,
                > whatever specific words might or might not suggest,
                > the notion that Indo-Iranians had to wait until their
                > contacts with earlier well-developed Central Asian
                > civilization to become adepts of the "Soma ritual"
                > (speaking broadly) is totally negated by
                > archaeological evidence. Even if one accepts the view
                > that the Soma plant= ephedra, and localizes its
                > availability on the highlands south of the steppes. At
                > most this would have meant a change in the identity of
                > the "holy plant". While still in Ukraine and South
                > Russia, the predecessors of the later Indo-Iranian
                > tribes which contacted with the BAMC had a fully
                > developed "holy plant drinking ritual", with all the
                > gadgets petaining thereto. All this was unearthed in
                > dozens of tombs of the Catacomb culture (2800-2200
                > BCE), and fully reported in the archaeological
                > literature. At that time the "holy plant" was the
                > poppy ("mak" in today's Ukr.) I was ready to accept
                > the notion that Indra was a later borrowing on the
                > authority of Lubotsky and Witzel,even as I was
                > rejecting some of their broader contentions about
                > rituals. But if you think the notion is laughable, I'm
                > listening(:= ))).****

                <snip>

                ***

                First, let me confess that I have been struggling to find a suitable
                derivation for this word for literally many years. I am interested in
                ancient religion as well as ancient language.

                Let us start with the form itself.

                In order to get a zero-grade of <in-> from the first syllable, necessitated
                by the stress-accented suffix -*ró in the second syllable, an emphatic
                formant, one must start with a full-grade *yAn-, where *A is the Ablautvokal
                (*é/*o/*Ø).

                This process results in *in-ró, into which *d was inserted for ease of
                pronunciation: *in-d-ró.

                *CVC+*ró is a well-known pattern in PIE for forming, primarily, emphatic
                (elative) adjectives.

                To reduce the first syllable to *yN is, of course, also possible, but would
                result in *yadrá rather than <indrá->. Of course, it would make the -*d-
                superfluous also: no *n-r, no *d.

                Indra was a name for the IE weather/storm- god. His name should characterize
                him in an unmistakable way.

                That is the good news.

                The bad news is that I can find no attestation of the root I am nearly
                certain existed, which would have had the form *yén-, and would have been
                related to *ya:(H)-, 'speak excitedly'.

                Perhaps one on our list will know of a word that could derive from PIE *yén-
                that was not preserved in enough PIE-derived languages to be included in
                Pokorny as (P)IE.

                Perhaps someday I shall find it.

                But formally alone, L&W are incompetent.

                Patrick




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              • fournet.arnaud
                I didnt say that Phoibe was PIE. If my hypothesis of Koios-Kuu is correct, Finnic and Pre-Greek must have been some link that I cannot locate. But... in
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 4, 2008
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                  I didnt say that Phoibe was PIE. If my hypothesis of Koios-Kuu is correct,
                  Finnic and Pre-Greek must have been some link that I cannot locate.
                  But... in another hypothesis, phoibos could be PIE and related to Slavic
                  zvezda "star". < *g^HwoigW-

                  ==========
                  Finnish is not alone
                  We are dealing with a PU root
                  *baj and suffixed form *baj-wo
                  FU + Samoyedic.

                  Even if Phoibe should not be "PIE",
                  I still cannot see
                  how *baj-wo could connect
                  with *Bhoibâ
                  You got one phoneme right -i- = -j-
                  the rest does not work !!

                  I'm not sure Ruhlen after three pints of beer
                  could see a connection...

                  Arnaud
                  ==========

                  The connection of Finnish päjvä
                  with Greek Phoibê seems impossible.

                  Internal analysis of Uralic data
                  in particular in Permic shows the
                  PU proto-form was *baj-
                  with a variant *baj-wo
                  It meant "light, day" and "lightning".
                  It's hard to suggest something in PIE
                  for this *baj PU root.

                  It's kind of mixed up with another
                  root *puh- *poh "fire / to cook"
                  obviously cognate to PIE *puH2- "fire"

                  In any case, päjvä has nothing to do
                  with Phoibê.

                  Arnaud

                  ============ ========= =







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                  armazenamento!
                • Patrick Ryan
                  ... From: fournet.arnaud To: Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 1:49 PM Subject: Re: Re: Res: Res: [tied]
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 4, 2008
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@...>
                    To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 1:49 PM
                    Subject: Re: Re: Res: Res: [tied] Swiftness of Indra


                    >
                    > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > If gandharva/gand&r&Ba came from BMCA, Greek kentauros could be
                    > related too... It makes me remind my past idea that Koios/Phoibe were
                    > telated to Finnic Kuu/Paiva from some (odd) way.
                    > > I would add to these words the mythical dogs of Yama:
                    > karvara/s^arbala and Greek Kerberos.
                    > >
                    >
                    > FWIW:
                    > Greek pho:s "light"
                    > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/bHA.html
                    > Estonian päev, -a "day", päevitama "sunbathe", päevitunud "sun-burned"
                    >
                    > Torsten
                    >
                    > ==========
                    >
                    > The connection of Finnish päjvä
                    > with Greek Phoibê seems impossible.
                    >
                    > Internal analysis of Uralic data
                    > in particular in Permic shows the
                    > PU proto-form was *baj-
                    > with a variant *baj-wo
                    > It meant "light, day" and "lightning".
                    > It's hard to suggest something in PIE
                    > for this *baj PU root.

                    ***

                    Not the same root but for *baj-wo-

                    PIE *bha:(H)u-


                    Patrick

                    ***


                    > It's kind of mixed up with another
                    > root *puh- *poh "fire / to cook"
                    > obviously cognate to PIE *puH2- "fire"
                    >
                    > In any case, päjvä has nothing to do
                    > with Phoibê.
                    >
                    > Arnaud
                    >
                    > ======================
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • fournet.arnaud
                    ... From: Joao S. Lopes -w- for Greek -b- is not impossible Why not Phoibe:
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 4, 2008
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Joao S. Lopes

                      -w- for Greek -b- is not impossible

                      Why not Phoibe: < *Bojwa: < *bajw-

                      ============

                      *bajwo should be Greek *baiFo-s
                      not *phoibâ
                      I told you the only thing that works
                      is -j-
                      the rest is "kaputt".

                      A.

                      ====================
                    • fournet.arnaud
                      ... *** Not the same root but for *baj-wo- PIE *bha:(H)u- Patrick *** I consider that the root of Greek phôs *bh_H2 is in fact *bh_s?- as in Semitic (wa)bas?
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 4, 2008
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                        > ==========
                        >
                        > The connection of Finnish päjvä
                        > with Greek Phoibê seems impossible.
                        >
                        > Internal analysis of Uralic data
                        > in particular in Permic shows the
                        > PU proto-form was *baj-
                        > with a variant *baj-wo
                        > It meant "light, day" and "lightning".
                        > It's hard to suggest something in PIE
                        > for this *baj PU root.

                        ***

                        Not the same root but for *baj-wo-

                        PIE *bha:(H)u-

                        Patrick

                        ***

                        I consider that the root
                        of Greek phôs *bh_H2
                        is in fact *bh_s?-
                        as in Semitic (wa)bas?

                        PU equivalent of that
                        should be *pas-

                        And that's the reason why
                        I haven't made this wrong
                        suggestion.

                        Arnaud
                        ================
                      • tgpedersen
                        ... Would *bheh2- glänzen, leuchten, scheinen (LIV) suit you? ... Something s mixed up here alright. ... No, not as a cognate in the inheritance sense,
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 5, 2008
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                          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > If gandharva/gand&r&Ba came from BMCA, Greek kentauros could be
                          > > related too... It makes me remind my past idea that Koios/Phoibe
                          > > were telated to Finnic Kuu/Paiva from some (odd) way.
                          > > I would add to these words the mythical dogs of Yama:
                          > > karvara/s^arbala and Greek Kerberos.
                          > >
                          >
                          > FWIW:
                          > Greek pho:s "light"
                          > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/bHA.html
                          > Estonian päev, -a "day", päevitama "sunbathe", päevitunud
                          > "sun-burned"
                          >
                          > Torsten
                          >
                          > ==========
                          >
                          > The connection of Finnish päjvä
                          > with Greek Phoibê seems impossible.
                          >
                          > Internal analysis of Uralic data
                          > in particular in Permic shows the
                          > PU proto-form was *baj-
                          > with a variant *baj-wo
                          > It meant "light, day" and "lightning".
                          > It's hard to suggest something in PIE
                          > for this *baj PU root.

                          Would *bheh2- "glänzen, leuchten, scheinen" (LIV) suit you?


                          > It's kind of mixed up with another
                          > root *puh- *poh "fire / to cook"
                          > obviously cognate to PIE *puH2- "fire"

                          Something's mixed up here alright.


                          > In any case, päjvä has nothing to do
                          > with Phoibê.

                          No, not as a cognate in the inheritance sense, which no one proposed
                          anyway. We were talking about loans. Why is it that every time I must
                          answer a posting from you, I have to restrain myself?


                          Torsten
                        • Francesco Brighenti
                          ... May I jump in here with some additional data and hypotheses? Don t take me too seriously (I m thinking of this idea for the first time right now), but, if
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 5, 2008
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                            George Knysh:

                            > I was ready to accept the notion that Indra was a later borrowing
                            > on the authority of Lubotsky and Witzel, even as I was rejecting
                            > some of their broader contentions about rituals.

                            Joao S. Lopes:

                            > But this epenthetical -d- is possible if the word is not IE.
                            > Indra < *Inra ?


                            May I jump in here with some additional data and hypotheses?

                            Don't take me too seriously (I'm thinking of this idea for the first
                            time right now), but, if the word Indra is not IE, it could belong
                            to a hypothetical Macro-Caucasian substrate language of Central
                            Asia.

                            This conjecture of mine rests upon:

                            1) Alexander Lubotsky's suggestion that *indra does not conform to
                            the expected Indo-Iranian vocalization, and may, therefore, be a non-
                            IE word;

                            2) Michael Witzel's theory according to which the "Central Asian
                            substrate words" found by Lubotsky in Indo-Iranian would have been
                            borrowed by one or more Macro-Caucasian language(s) spoken by the
                            peoples of the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC);

                            3) John Colarusso's speculation that Indra may represent an early
                            North-West Caucasian loan into IE -- cf. Circassian /y@n-ra/ 'huge +
                            present participle', Abkhaz /á-yna-r/ 'the huge + present
                            participle', the name of the god of the forge Aynar ('the Huge One')
                            > *inra > *indra (with intrusive -d-), in this case originally
                            meaning 'the Great One'.

                            Here is the link to the page from a book by Colarusso where this
                            etymology is discussed (N.B. Colarusso theorizes that North-West
                            Caucasian languages may be genetically related to the IE family in a
                            larger "Pontic" family):

                            http://tinyurl.com/357ype

                            ==========

                            Addenda:

                            M. Witzel, "The Rgvedic Religious System and Its Central Asian and
                            Hindukush Antecedents", in A. Griffiths & J.E.M. Houben (eds.), _The
                            Vedas: Texts, Language and Ritual_, Groningen, Forsten, 2004
                            (preprint pdf):

                            "One may therefore revisit the old etymology of Indra from ind 'to
                            swell'. [M. Mayrhofer's] EWAia... connects indra with the
                            meaning 'strong': índra or *indrá 'strong, strength' ~ Gr. oidéo: 'to
                            swell' and perhaps índu 'drop'; if this goes back to *(h)i-n-d-ro ~
                            Slav. *je,dr' 'strong, forceful' (Croat. jédar 'strong', O.Russ.
                            jadr' 'quick')..."

                            And, from another (2002) preprint pdf by Witzel ("Early Loan Words
                            in Western Central Asia: Substrates, Migrations and Trade"):

                            "[An] interesting river name is that of the Indra River in S.
                            Tajikistan, Indar-a:b, and the Inder lake (Russ. ozero Inder) on the
                            lower Ural river in W. Kazakhstan. In light of the proposed non-IIr
                            etymology of the name of the god Indra... these widespread names may
                            reflect the C. Asian substrate language as well. Much more research
                            is needed, however, to turn these proposals into something closer to
                            certainty."

                            Regards,
                            Francesco
                          • Francesco Brighenti
                            ... Read: 2) Michael Witzel s theory according to which the Central Asian substrate words found by Lubotsky in Indo-Iranian would have been borrowed
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 5, 2008
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                              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@...>

                              This is ti fix a typo in my latest message. In place of:

                              > 2) Michael Witzel's theory according to which the "Central Asian
                              > substrate words" found by Lubotsky in Indo-Iranian would have been
                              > borrowed ***BY*** one or more Macro-Caucasian language(s) spoken by
                              > the peoples of the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC);

                              Read:

                              2) Michael Witzel's theory according to which the "Central Asian
                              substrate words" found by Lubotsky in Indo-Iranian would have been
                              borrowed ***FROM*** one or more Macro-Caucasian language(s) spoken by
                              the peoples of the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC);

                              FB
                            • Rick McCallister
                              This sounds more plausible than an IE scenario. I just wish there were some more competent people working on Macro-Caucasian who had a bit more common sense.
                              Message 14 of 17 , Mar 5, 2008
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                                This sounds more plausible than an IE scenario.
                                I just wish there were some more competent people
                                working on Macro-Caucasian who had a bit more common
                                sense.
                                I'm not a linguist but I know enough about Basque to
                                know that Bengtson is fudging Basque data to comply
                                with his hypothesis. Although I can't speak to
                                Bengtson's competency in Caucasian languages, I'm
                                shocked that Witzel, a Harvard professor, is naive
                                enough to accept his word re: Basque.
                                Before going farther, the Macro-Caucasian people need
                                to cement relationship between NE Caucasian, NW
                                Caucasian, Burúshaski and Yenisseian. Then look at
                                Sino-Tibetan, Na-Dené et al. As it looks now, it's too
                                fly-by-night.
                                Can anyone on the list judge Colarusso's competency in
                                this?


                                --- Francesco Brighenti <frabrig@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > George Knysh:
                                >
                                > > I was ready to accept the notion that Indra was a
                                > later borrowing
                                > > on the authority of Lubotsky and Witzel, even as I
                                > was rejecting
                                > > some of their broader contentions about rituals.
                                >
                                > Joao S. Lopes:
                                >
                                > > But this epenthetical -d- is possible if the word
                                > is not IE.
                                > > Indra < *Inra ?
                                >
                                >
                                > May I jump in here with some additional data and
                                > hypotheses?
                                >
                                > Don't take me too seriously (I'm thinking of this
                                > idea for the first
                                > time right now), but, if the word Indra is not IE,
                                > it could belong
                                > to a hypothetical Macro-Caucasian substrate language
                                > of Central
                                > Asia.
                                >
                                > This conjecture of mine rests upon:
                                >
                                > 1) Alexander Lubotsky's suggestion that *indra does
                                > not conform to
                                > the expected Indo-Iranian vocalization, and may,
                                > therefore, be a non-
                                > IE word;
                                >
                                > 2) Michael Witzel's theory according to which the
                                > "Central Asian
                                > substrate words" found by Lubotsky in Indo-Iranian
                                > would have been
                                > borrowed by one or more Macro-Caucasian language(s)
                                > spoken by the
                                > peoples of the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological
                                > Complex (BMAC);
                                >
                                > 3) John Colarusso's speculation that Indra may
                                > represent an early
                                > North-West Caucasian loan into IE -- cf. Circassian
                                > /y@n-ra/ 'huge +
                                > present participle', Abkhaz /á-yna-r/ 'the huge +
                                > present
                                > participle', the name of the god of the forge Aynar
                                > ('the Huge One')
                                > > *inra > *indra (with intrusive -d-), in this case
                                > originally
                                > meaning 'the Great One'.
                                >
                                > Here is the link to the page from a book by
                                > Colarusso where this
                                > etymology is discussed (N.B. Colarusso theorizes
                                > that North-West
                                > Caucasian languages may be genetically related to
                                > the IE family in a
                                > larger "Pontic" family):
                                >
                                > http://tinyurl.com/357ype
                                >
                                > ==========
                                >
                                > Addenda:
                                >
                                > M. Witzel, "The Rgvedic Religious System and Its
                                > Central Asian and
                                > Hindukush Antecedents", in A. Griffiths & J.E.M.
                                > Houben (eds.), _The
                                > Vedas: Texts, Language and Ritual_, Groningen,
                                > Forsten, 2004
                                > (preprint pdf):
                                >
                                > "One may therefore revisit the old etymology of
                                > Indra from ind 'to
                                > swell'. [M. Mayrhofer's] EWAia... connects indra
                                > with the
                                > meaning 'strong': índra or *indrá 'strong, strength'
                                > ~ Gr. oidéo: 'to
                                > swell' and perhaps índu 'drop'; if this goes back to
                                > *(h)i-n-d-ro ~
                                > Slav. *je,dr' 'strong, forceful' (Croat. jédar
                                > 'strong', O.Russ.
                                > jadr' 'quick')..."
                                >
                                > And, from another (2002) preprint pdf by Witzel
                                > ("Early Loan Words
                                > in Western Central Asia: Substrates, Migrations and
                                > Trade"):
                                >
                                > "[An] interesting river name is that of the Indra
                                > River in S.
                                > Tajikistan, Indar-a:b, and the Inder lake (Russ.
                                > ozero Inder) on the
                                > lower Ural river in W. Kazakhstan. In light of the
                                > proposed non-IIr
                                > etymology of the name of the god Indra... these
                                > widespread names may
                                > reflect the C. Asian substrate language as well.
                                > Much more research
                                > is needed, however, to turn these proposals into
                                > something closer to
                                > certainty."
                                >
                                > Regards,
                                > Francesco
                                >
                                >



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                              • fournet.arnaud
                                ... From: Joao S. Lopes To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 9:06 PM Subject: Res: Re: Res: Res: [tied] Swiftness of Indra I didnt say
                                Message 15 of 17 , Mar 5, 2008
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                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Joao S. Lopes
                                  To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 9:06 PM
                                  Subject: Res: Re: Res: Res: [tied] Swiftness of Indra


                                  I didnt say that Phoibe was PIE. If my hypothesis of Koios-Kuu is correct,
                                  Finnic and Pre-Greek must have been some link that I cannot locate.
                                  But... in another hypothesis, phoibos could be PIE and related to Slavic
                                  zvezda "star". < *g^HwoigW-

                                  ===============

                                  Phoibê can perfectly be Greek
                                  From *bh_H2 = *bh_s?-
                                  Increment : -gw
                                  Scheme : o_eH2
                                  Ground form : *bhos?-gw-eH2

                                  s? > z
                                  (phonotaxis : gw is voiced)
                                  Hence
                                  *bhozgweH2
                                  Greek changes :
                                  bh > ph
                                  z > y
                                  gw > b
                                  hence
                                  *phoibê

                                  100% PIE- Greek

                                  Arnaud

                                  ================
                                • Francesco Brighenti
                                  ... As I mentioned in my latest post, John Colarusso has postulated his own Pontic hypothesis, i.e. the idea that Indo-European and Northwest Caucasian are
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Mar 6, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...>
                                    wrote:

                                    > Before going farther, the Macro-Caucasian people need to cement
                                    > relationship between NE Caucasian, NW Caucasian, Burúshaski and
                                    > Yenisseian. Then look at Sino-Tibetan, Na-Dené et al. As it looks
                                    > now, it's too fly-by-night. Can anyone on the list judge
                                    > Colarusso's competency in this?

                                    As I mentioned in my latest post, John Colarusso has postulated his
                                    own "Pontic" hypothesis, i.e. the idea that Indo-European and
                                    Northwest Caucasian are related at the phylum level. The time depth of
                                    his "Proto-Pontic" would be perhaps 12,000 years before the present.
                                    Colarusso's taxonomic hypothesis is, however, not widely accepted. At
                                    any rate, Colarusso is not a proponent of a "Macro-Caucasian" super-
                                    phylum à la Bengtson.

                                    Francesco
                                  • fournet.arnaud
                                    ... Would *bheh2- glänzen, leuchten, scheinen (LIV) suit you? Torsten ========== No. Because PIE *bh_H2 is from *bh_s?- as shown by Semitic (w_)bh_s?-.
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Mar 6, 2008
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                                      > FWIW:
                                      > Greek pho:s "light"
                                      > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/bHA.html
                                      > Estonian päev, -a "day", päevitama "sunbathe", päevitunud
                                      > "sun-burned"
                                      >
                                      > Torsten
                                      >
                                      > ==========
                                      >
                                      > The connection of Finnish päjvä
                                      > with Greek Phoibê seems impossible.
                                      >
                                      > Internal analysis of Uralic data
                                      > in particular in Permic shows the
                                      > PU proto-form was *baj-
                                      > with a variant *baj-wo
                                      > It meant "light, day" and "lightning".
                                      > It's hard to suggest something in PIE
                                      > for this *baj PU root.

                                      Would *bheh2- "glänzen, leuchten, scheinen" (LIV) suit you?
                                      Torsten
                                      ==========
                                      No.
                                      Because PIE *bh_H2 is from *bh_s?-
                                      as shown by Semitic (w_)bh_s?-.
                                      Arnaud
                                      ==========
                                      > In any case, päjvä has nothing to do
                                      > with Phoibê.

                                      No, not as a cognate in the inheritance sense, which no one proposed
                                      anyway. We were talking about loans. Why is it that every time I must
                                      answer a posting from you, I have to restrain myself?

                                      Torsten
                                      ========
                                      Dear Torsten

                                      You can first spit out your venom and bile
                                      thru a direct mail to my address,
                                      I will not get offended by bad names,
                                      thru a private mail.
                                      and afterwards, once the sweat has dried,
                                      and the anger has cooled down,
                                      you can write to Cybalist
                                      an academically nice and smooth mail.

                                      Whaddyathink ?

                                      I disagree with the fact you cannot express your point
                                      to the last word and have to restrain.
                                      It's bad for your blood pressure.

                                      Arnaud
                                      ===========
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