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Re: [tied] Hermes etymology & anthropomorphic maps

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  • Christopher Gwinn
    I like Pokorny s explanation of Loki from *Leug- break/divide. This would make Loki the Destroyer. It may be that Lugus/Lug comes from the same root,
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 31, 2000
      I like Pokorny's explanation of Loki from *Leug- "break/divide." This would
      make Loki "the Destroyer." It may be that Lugus/Lug comes from the same
      root, though it is now widely accepted amongst (Dumezilian) Celticists that
      Lugus comes from *Leug- "oath/swear." This would make Lugus (*Leug-eu-s)
      "(Oath)Swearer."

      Things that we must remember about Lugus (and his Irish/Welsh counterparts):

      1) He is specifically connected with horses and horseracing
      (Lugus/Lug/Lleu); 2) he is connected with hilltops (Lugus/Lug/Lleu); 3) his
      festival coincides with the harvest season (Lug/Lugus); 3) he is armed with
      a firey/powerful spear (Lug/Lleu); 4) he can take on eagle form (Lleu - note
      Odinn as an eagle); He is mortally wounded and then healed (Lleu); He is
      connected with healing (Lug); He is connected with valleys/brooks
      (Lugus/Lleu); He is connected with sovereignty (Lug); He is a master of the
      occult, knows demon magic (Lug - note his "Fomorian" style dance in Cath Mag
      Tuired)); He is of 1/2 demon ancestry (Lug); His brother is a sea god/seal
      (Lleu, perhaps Lug); he may be connected with Apollo Belinus (note Welsh
      name Llywelyn from *Lugu-Belinos); He is a shoemaker (Lleu/Lugus); He is a
      master of all arts and skills (Lug).

      This is only a sampling. Lugus seems to be a very complicated god and I
      think that more reasearch needs to be done before we assign him an assured
      PIE identity - though I would lean towards an Rudraic-Apollonic-Odinnic
      direction.

      The closest to a trickster god in Celtic tales is Bricriu of the poison
      tongue in the Ulster myths.
      -Chris Gwinn
    • Christopher Gwinn
      On a side note, I have recently stumbled upon an article in a Celtic syudies journal that claims Old Norse Lodhur (who is normally thought to = Latin Liber
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 31, 2000
        On a side note,
        I have recently stumbled upon an article in a Celtic syudies journal that
        claims Old Norse Lodhur (who is normally thought to = Latin Liber from
        *Leudhes) is found in a runic inscription as Logathor, which is explained as
        coming from Loga- "fire" + thor "impeller," or perhaps *Leuk-et-o (note
        Gaulish god Lucetius, a healing god, whose name seems to match Welsh lluched
        and Irish lochet "lightning," but note Welsh llucheden [*leuk-et-en-o]
        "plague/fever").

        In one of the Eddas, Odinn is part of a trinity including Hoenir and Lodhur
        (who would seem to be allonyms for Vili and Ve), but in the Volsung saga,
        Odin is part of a trilogy with Hoenir and Loki - this might suggest that
        Loki was an allonym for Lodhur.

        Thus we can imagine:

        PIE *Leuk-et-[...] "Burner" > Runic Logathor > Old Norse Lodhur, one of
        Odinn's two companions

        PIE *Leug-[...] "Break/Divide" > Old Norse Loki ("destroyer"), one of
        Odinn's companions.

        Perhaps Lodhur and Loki are two sides of the same divinity, one that heals
        with heat (like the Gaulish healer god Leucetius), and the other that
        destroys with fire?

        -Chris Gwinn
      • Glen Gordon
        ... Well, I wouldn t go that far. I wonder if there isn t some more wordplay going on, however. The connection between *leuk- and fire is an obvious,
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 1, 2001
          I said:
          >>It would seem that Hermes is derived from the polymorphic fire god
          >>*XegWnis (or should it be *Lukis < *leuk- "to shine"?) who >>frequently
          >>gets himself into mischief -> Celtic Lugh/Lleu, Norse >>Loki & Indic Agni.
          >
          >I don't think that we can derive Lugus/Lug/Lleu from PIE *leuk-. >First of
          >all, PIE -k- becomes Celtic -c-, so we need to propose a >variant to *leuk,
          >PIE *leug- - I don't think this can be sufficiently >proved.

          Well, I wouldn't go that far. I wonder if there isn't some more wordplay
          going on, however. The connection between *leuk- and "fire" is an obvious,
          straightforward one... yet how might we derive the name from a root meaning
          "to divide"? Certainly, Loki divides the deity community up in Ragnarok but
          the equation of *leug- to Loki/Lleu/Lugh might be too overly obsessed with
          IE sound correspondances as to acknowledge an underlying pun.

          If we consider that the original form might have been based on *leuk-
          instead, we are given a fresh perspective. We would then see that *leug- is
          a corruption by wordplay, serving to add new meaning to the fire god's
          original name.

          >I personally see the fire/solar connection with Lug as being a late >(and
          >often misunderstood) accretion. Much more likely that >Lugus/Lug/Lleu are
          >the Celtic reflexes of Germanic *Watonaz.

          How late is this "accretion" would you say and why? But again, we aren't
          addressing the original source of these Celtic names.

          >Where do we have evidence of Lug/Lleu getting into "mischief?"

          Perhaps you're right. Comparing Celtic myth to general IE myth, it appears
          that Lugh-Lleu is mostly the embodiment of the mortal hero *Manus
          functioning as ruler of mankind. Maybe even a little of the Sun Maiden
          herself. Odin is a sky personality who is not so connected with the sun as
          *Manus is.

          So... perhaps my connection is right but for wrong reasons. Perhaps
          Lugh-Lleu and Loki both started as seperate derivatives of *leuk- "to
          shine". But... maybe Loki was modelled on Fire while Lugh-Lleu was modelled
          on the Sun Maiden (both "bright" objects afterall). Later, wordplay changes
          gave added meanings. So, Loki gets confused with *leug- "divide" as in
          "dividing" the gods in Ragnarok.

          Many sites mention Lugh in connection with "brightness"
          (http://www.ghgcorp.com/cashultz/etymology.html) This is one of many sites
          that connect *leuk- to Lugh. Another site
          (http://www.isd.net/euroamer/one/lugh.html) states: "Lug is known as the
          shining-one, for his face is said to have emitted a brilliant light while he
          fought in battle. Some speculate that the Celtic word Lugos shares a common
          Euro-root as the Latin word 'lux' -- meaning light."

          He's certainly a bright character one way or another, whether Fire or Sun.

          - gLeN


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        • João Simões Lopes Filho
          I think Lug is a very complex deity. shoemaker + leaper = Vishnu and Vidarr? Perhaps this Lug-Odinn deity can be a pre-IE Northwestern god that absorbed
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 1, 2001
            I think Lug is a very complex deity.
            "shoemaker" + "leaper" = Vishnu and Vidarr?
            Perhaps this Lug-Odinn deity can be a pre-IE Northwestern god that absorbed
            traits of IE *Waxtnos.
            Bricriu have common traits with Syrdon, Loki and Thersites.

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Christopher Gwinn <sonno3@...>
            To: <cybalist@egroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 3:57 PM
            Subject: Re: [tied] Hermes etymology & anthropomorphic maps


            > I like Pokorny's explanation of Loki from *Leug- "break/divide." This
            would
            > make Loki "the Destroyer." It may be that Lugus/Lug comes from the same
            > root, though it is now widely accepted amongst (Dumezilian) Celticists
            that
            > Lugus comes from *Leug- "oath/swear." This would make Lugus (*Leug-eu-s)
            > "(Oath)Swearer."
            >
            > Things that we must remember about Lugus (and his Irish/Welsh
            counterparts):
            >
            > 1) He is specifically connected with horses and horseracing
            > (Lugus/Lug/Lleu); 2) he is connected with hilltops (Lugus/Lug/Lleu); 3)
            his
            > festival coincides with the harvest season (Lug/Lugus); 3) he is armed
            with
            > a firey/powerful spear (Lug/Lleu); 4) he can take on eagle form (Lleu -
            note
            > Odinn as an eagle); He is mortally wounded and then healed (Lleu); He is
            > connected with healing (Lug); He is connected with valleys/brooks
            > (Lugus/Lleu); He is connected with sovereignty (Lug); He is a master of
            the
            > occult, knows demon magic (Lug - note his "Fomorian" style dance in Cath
            Mag
            > Tuired)); He is of 1/2 demon ancestry (Lug); His brother is a sea god/seal
            > (Lleu, perhaps Lug); he may be connected with Apollo Belinus (note Welsh
            > name Llywelyn from *Lugu-Belinos); He is a shoemaker (Lleu/Lugus); He is a
            > master of all arts and skills (Lug).
            >
            > This is only a sampling. Lugus seems to be a very complicated god and I
            > think that more reasearch needs to be done before we assign him an assured
            > PIE identity - though I would lean towards an Rudraic-Apollonic-Odinnic
            > direction.
            >
            > The closest to a trickster god in Celtic tales is Bricriu of the poison
            > tongue in the Ulster myths.
            > -Chris Gwinn
            >
            >
            >
            >
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