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Re: [tied] *Pexwr-G^ene:s

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  • Glen Gordon
    ... I m not sure exactly. :) The more I revisit this idea, the more I discover new aspects, none of which give me ultimate illumination on the matter but
    Message 1 of 3 , Dec 31, 2000
      Chris G:
      >I am still a bit shaky on what you are saying about *Pexwr-G^ene:s'
      >connection to *PerkWonos - can you clarify/restate it a bit?
      >
      >Are you saying that the names *Pexwr-G^ene:s and *PerkWonos are
      >linguistically related, or simply that they are alternate names for >the
      >same god? Or am I simply confused.

      I'm not sure exactly. :) The more I revisit this idea, the more I discover
      new aspects, none of which give me ultimate illumination on the matter but
      damned if they aren't interesting. It certainly seems like one name is a
      mutation of the other but I'm not sure what's what yet. The epithet "Fire
      Born" must signify something in IE myth because it obviously appears to
      reoccur over and over as we've seen. I'm not sure how it might have
      described the storm deity *PerkWnos however.

      Obviously, lightning is not "born of fire", nor is a storm, unless perhaps
      this truely describes the roar of thunder that follows a flash of lightning.
      (Of course, if *PerkWnos is simply "storm", then he is both "lightning fire"
      AND "thunder", so... does "Fire Born" imply an "autogenesis"?? Argh, no
      comprendo, se�or!)

      Yet, on the other hand, I don't understand why there is a connection between
      oak trees, lightning and this storm deity which underlies the accepted name
      *PerkWnos. It would almost seem that the connection is on an abstract level,
      caused by a linguistic pun of an earlier *Pexwr-G^ene:s, corrupted by other
      similar words like "to strike" and *perkWos "oak" giving the deity
      additional aspects and purposes that had never existed before in the
      original EuroAnatolian protomyth with the "Baal"-ish counterpart.

      Yet, on a third hand (lended to me by a friend :P), how does "Fire Born"
      relate exactly to IE myth? Am I correct? Is it simply his thunderous roar
      being "born" from lightning? Does it perhaps have something to do with the
      story of Odin and his Christly self-sacrifice on the tree? Somehow born from
      fire? Born from ashes? Born from a tree's ashes?? Is a tree struck by
      lightning considered a holy event where *PerkWnos is metaphorically "nailed"
      to the tree, only to rise to the sky (via the smoke of the blazing tree) and
      become reborn?? I don't know. I'm still exploring, trying to arrive at the
      most sensible theory.

      Summary: I think the two names are both from an IE level and
      related by religious wordplay.

      I'll get to the other messages soon. I have to sleep now and save my
      strength to fight the new year. Nighty night and may everyone have an
      ordered lifespan under the sun of the 3rd millenium... We probably won't
      live to the next millenium, so we better make this one good... That reminds
      me, I must invest in bioengineering companies... [wink wink] :)

      - gLeN


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    • Mark Odegard
      Glen writes ... But fire caused by lightning is born of the storm. With the thunderboomer, you get fire-in-water imagery, something that starts fires,
      Message 2 of 3 , Jan 1, 2001
        Glen writes
        > Obviously, lightning is not "born of fire", nor is a storm,
        > unless perhaps this truely describes the roar of thunder
        > that follows a flash of lightning.
        > (Of course, if *PerkWnos is simply "storm", then he is both
        > "lightning fire" AND "thunder", so... does "Fire Born"
        > imply an "autogenesis"?? Argh, no comprendo, señor!)
        >
        > Yet, on the other hand, I don't understand why there is a
        > connection between oak trees, lightning and this storm deity
        > which underlies the accepted name *PerkWnos.

        But fire caused by lightning is born of the storm. With the
        thunderboomer, you get fire-in-water imagery, something that starts
        fires, something that extinguishes fires. Fire and water come from
        Heaven, from the thunderclouds.

        Think mythologically! Out on the flat of the Steppe, you get these
        monster thunderheads where you can see clear blue sky on one side, and
        the black of the storm on the other, where lightning can start a fire
        here, while drenching the area on the other side of the front. As a
        matter of practical personal testimony, I've been in storms where it
        rains on one-half of the patio, and is bright sunshine on the other
        half, all in 100 square feet.

        And work into this scenerio the propensity for cattle and horses to
        stampede during thunderstorms (some dogs also run and hide in fright
        too).

        You can almost hear the shamans and poets trying to make sense of
        these atmospheric theatrics.

        Mark.
      • Piotr Gasiorowski
        I believe the association of oaks with thunderstorms was folk-etymological. I don t see any linguistic evidence for it outside Baltic (with *perku:nas
        Message 3 of 3 , Jan 1, 2001
          I believe the association of oaks with thunderstorms was
          folk-etymological. I don't see any linguistic evidence for
          it outside Baltic (with *perku:nas 'thunderer' for expected
          *per-u:n-a-s, cf. Slavic *perunU 'thunderbolt') and
          Scandinavian (an areal connection is very likely here,
          especially as Baltic Perkunas and Slavic Perun are the
          functional counterparts of Thor, son of Odin by Fjörgyn).
          PIE *perkW-o-s (or *perkW-u-s?) 'oaktree' is a concrete noun
          that needn't be derived from a verb root. An additional
          complication is that the oak word in Baltic is *ang^-o:l/n-
          (Lith. a,z^uolas, Prussian ansonis) and *perkW- is not
          directly attested there with that meaning.

          It is quite possible that the rock = thunder association is
          due to semantic contamination as well. The Slavic
          'thunderbolt' word is quite transparently related to
          *per(h2)- 'strike' and perhaps indirectly to *porh2- 'split,
          penetrate, push on' (Hittite parh-, Slavic *por(-je)-ti,
          Gothic faran, etc.). The PIE 'rock' word was clearly
          *perwen-/*perun-o- (no labiovelars, no laryngeals). The
          superficial similarity of *perwen-, *perh2-(wen-) and
          *perkWo- was an invitation to folk etymologists. Note, BTW,
          that there is an old association between oaktrees and the
          thunderbolt-throwing Sky God (via oakwood javelin shafts?):
          the esculent oak was sacred to Jupiter, for example. Glen's
          eforts to add 'fire' to this melee of roots are in the best
          tradition of IE mythmaking.

          The 'fire' root had a rather complex heteroclitic paradigm
          with such allomorphs as *pah2wr, *pah2wen- *ph2uo:r,
          *ph2u(:)r-, *ph2un-o-. They don't seem to be confusible with
          the roots listed above under normal conditions (except via
          some sort of izzical metathesis), though an alliterative
          basis for folk-etymologising, strengthened by semantic
          connectibility, no doubt exists -- otherwise the connection
          would not have occurred to Glen.

          The *g^enh1es- element in Glen's reconstruction is
          unwarranted since, in the first place, there is no PIE
          *perkW(o)nos meaning 'storm' (at best we have a dialectal
          corruption of *perh2-wen- or some such derivative, used as
          the name of a deity associated with both storms and oaks),
          and secondly the confusion of *g^ and *kW even in wordplay
          strains credibility beyond reasonable limits.

          Piotr


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@...>
          To: <cybalist@egroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 7:51 AM
          Subject: Re: [tied] *Pexwr-G^ene:s


          >
          > Chris G:
          > >I am still a bit shaky on what you are saying about
          *Pexwr-G^ene:s'
          > >connection to *PerkWonos - can you clarify/restate it a
          bit?
          > >
          > >Are you saying that the names *Pexwr-G^ene:s and
          *PerkWonos are
          > >linguistically related, or simply that they are alternate
          names for >the
          > >same god? Or am I simply confused.
          >
          > I'm not sure exactly. :) The more I revisit this idea, the
          more I discover
          > new aspects, none of which give me ultimate illumination
          on the matter but
          > damned if they aren't interesting. It certainly seems like
          one name is a
          > mutation of the other but I'm not sure what's what yet.
          The epithet "Fire
          > Born" must signify something in IE myth because it
          obviously appears to
          > reoccur over and over as we've seen. I'm not sure how it
          might have
          > described the storm deity *PerkWnos however.
          >
          > Obviously, lightning is not "born of fire", nor is a
          storm, unless perhaps
          > this truely describes the roar of thunder that follows a
          flash of lightning.
          > (Of course, if *PerkWnos is simply "storm", then he is
          both "lightning fire"
          > AND "thunder", so... does "Fire Born" imply an
          "autogenesis"?? Argh, no
          > comprendo, seor!)
          >
          > Yet, on the other hand, I don't understand why there is a
          connection between
          > oak trees, lightning and this storm deity which underlies
          the accepted name
          > *PerkWnos. It would almost seem that the connection is on
          an abstract level,
          > caused by a linguistic pun of an earlier *Pexwr-G^ene:s,
          corrupted by other
          > similar words like "to strike" and *perkWos "oak" giving
          the deity
          > additional aspects and purposes that had never existed
          before in the
          > original EuroAnatolian protomyth with the "Baal"-ish
          counterpart.
          >
          > Yet, on a third hand (lended to me by a friend :P), how
          does "Fire Born"
          > relate exactly to IE myth? Am I correct? Is it simply his
          thunderous roar
          > being "born" from lightning? Does it perhaps have
          something to do with the
          > story of Odin and his Christly self-sacrifice on the tree?
          Somehow born from
          > fire? Born from ashes? Born from a tree's ashes?? Is a
          tree struck by
          > lightning considered a holy event where *PerkWnos is
          metaphorically "nailed"
          > to the tree, only to rise to the sky (via the smoke of the
          blazing tree) and
          > become reborn?? I don't know. I'm still exploring, trying
          to arrive at the
          > most sensible theory.
          >
          > Summary: I think the two names are both from an IE level
          and
          > related by religious wordplay.
          >
          > I'll get to the other messages soon. I have to sleep now
          and save my
          > strength to fight the new year. Nighty night and may
          everyone have an
          > ordered lifespan under the sun of the 3rd millenium... We
          probably won't
          > live to the next millenium, so we better make this one
          good... That reminds
          > me, I must invest in bioengineering companies... [wink
          wink] :)
          >
          > - gLeN
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