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Re: *Pexwr-G^ene:s

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  • Mark Odegard
    Glen writes ... But fire caused by lightning is born of the storm. With the thunderboomer, you get fire-in-water imagery, something that starts fires,
    Message 1 of 3 , Jan 1, 2001
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      Glen writes
      > Obviously, lightning is not "born of fire", nor is a storm,
      > unless perhaps this truely describes the roar of thunder
      > that follows a flash of lightning.
      > (Of course, if *PerkWnos is simply "storm", then he is both
      > "lightning fire" AND "thunder", so... does "Fire Born"
      > imply an "autogenesis"?? Argh, no comprendo, señor!)
      >
      > Yet, on the other hand, I don't understand why there is a
      > connection between oak trees, lightning and this storm deity
      > which underlies the accepted name *PerkWnos.

      But fire caused by lightning is born of the storm. With the
      thunderboomer, you get fire-in-water imagery, something that starts
      fires, something that extinguishes fires. Fire and water come from
      Heaven, from the thunderclouds.

      Think mythologically! Out on the flat of the Steppe, you get these
      monster thunderheads where you can see clear blue sky on one side, and
      the black of the storm on the other, where lightning can start a fire
      here, while drenching the area on the other side of the front. As a
      matter of practical personal testimony, I've been in storms where it
      rains on one-half of the patio, and is bright sunshine on the other
      half, all in 100 square feet.

      And work into this scenerio the propensity for cattle and horses to
      stampede during thunderstorms (some dogs also run and hide in fright
      too).

      You can almost hear the shamans and poets trying to make sense of
      these atmospheric theatrics.

      Mark.
    • Piotr Gasiorowski
      I believe the association of oaks with thunderstorms was folk-etymological. I don t see any linguistic evidence for it outside Baltic (with *perku:nas
      Message 2 of 3 , Jan 1, 2001
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        I believe the association of oaks with thunderstorms was
        folk-etymological. I don't see any linguistic evidence for
        it outside Baltic (with *perku:nas 'thunderer' for expected
        *per-u:n-a-s, cf. Slavic *perunU 'thunderbolt') and
        Scandinavian (an areal connection is very likely here,
        especially as Baltic Perkunas and Slavic Perun are the
        functional counterparts of Thor, son of Odin by Fjörgyn).
        PIE *perkW-o-s (or *perkW-u-s?) 'oaktree' is a concrete noun
        that needn't be derived from a verb root. An additional
        complication is that the oak word in Baltic is *ang^-o:l/n-
        (Lith. a,z^uolas, Prussian ansonis) and *perkW- is not
        directly attested there with that meaning.

        It is quite possible that the rock = thunder association is
        due to semantic contamination as well. The Slavic
        'thunderbolt' word is quite transparently related to
        *per(h2)- 'strike' and perhaps indirectly to *porh2- 'split,
        penetrate, push on' (Hittite parh-, Slavic *por(-je)-ti,
        Gothic faran, etc.). The PIE 'rock' word was clearly
        *perwen-/*perun-o- (no labiovelars, no laryngeals). The
        superficial similarity of *perwen-, *perh2-(wen-) and
        *perkWo- was an invitation to folk etymologists. Note, BTW,
        that there is an old association between oaktrees and the
        thunderbolt-throwing Sky God (via oakwood javelin shafts?):
        the esculent oak was sacred to Jupiter, for example. Glen's
        eforts to add 'fire' to this melee of roots are in the best
        tradition of IE mythmaking.

        The 'fire' root had a rather complex heteroclitic paradigm
        with such allomorphs as *pah2wr, *pah2wen- *ph2uo:r,
        *ph2u(:)r-, *ph2un-o-. They don't seem to be confusible with
        the roots listed above under normal conditions (except via
        some sort of izzical metathesis), though an alliterative
        basis for folk-etymologising, strengthened by semantic
        connectibility, no doubt exists -- otherwise the connection
        would not have occurred to Glen.

        The *g^enh1es- element in Glen's reconstruction is
        unwarranted since, in the first place, there is no PIE
        *perkW(o)nos meaning 'storm' (at best we have a dialectal
        corruption of *perh2-wen- or some such derivative, used as
        the name of a deity associated with both storms and oaks),
        and secondly the confusion of *g^ and *kW even in wordplay
        strains credibility beyond reasonable limits.

        Piotr


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@...>
        To: <cybalist@egroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 7:51 AM
        Subject: Re: [tied] *Pexwr-G^ene:s


        >
        > Chris G:
        > >I am still a bit shaky on what you are saying about
        *Pexwr-G^ene:s'
        > >connection to *PerkWonos - can you clarify/restate it a
        bit?
        > >
        > >Are you saying that the names *Pexwr-G^ene:s and
        *PerkWonos are
        > >linguistically related, or simply that they are alternate
        names for >the
        > >same god? Or am I simply confused.
        >
        > I'm not sure exactly. :) The more I revisit this idea, the
        more I discover
        > new aspects, none of which give me ultimate illumination
        on the matter but
        > damned if they aren't interesting. It certainly seems like
        one name is a
        > mutation of the other but I'm not sure what's what yet.
        The epithet "Fire
        > Born" must signify something in IE myth because it
        obviously appears to
        > reoccur over and over as we've seen. I'm not sure how it
        might have
        > described the storm deity *PerkWnos however.
        >
        > Obviously, lightning is not "born of fire", nor is a
        storm, unless perhaps
        > this truely describes the roar of thunder that follows a
        flash of lightning.
        > (Of course, if *PerkWnos is simply "storm", then he is
        both "lightning fire"
        > AND "thunder", so... does "Fire Born" imply an
        "autogenesis"?? Argh, no
        > comprendo, seor!)
        >
        > Yet, on the other hand, I don't understand why there is a
        connection between
        > oak trees, lightning and this storm deity which underlies
        the accepted name
        > *PerkWnos. It would almost seem that the connection is on
        an abstract level,
        > caused by a linguistic pun of an earlier *Pexwr-G^ene:s,
        corrupted by other
        > similar words like "to strike" and *perkWos "oak" giving
        the deity
        > additional aspects and purposes that had never existed
        before in the
        > original EuroAnatolian protomyth with the "Baal"-ish
        counterpart.
        >
        > Yet, on a third hand (lended to me by a friend :P), how
        does "Fire Born"
        > relate exactly to IE myth? Am I correct? Is it simply his
        thunderous roar
        > being "born" from lightning? Does it perhaps have
        something to do with the
        > story of Odin and his Christly self-sacrifice on the tree?
        Somehow born from
        > fire? Born from ashes? Born from a tree's ashes?? Is a
        tree struck by
        > lightning considered a holy event where *PerkWnos is
        metaphorically "nailed"
        > to the tree, only to rise to the sky (via the smoke of the
        blazing tree) and
        > become reborn?? I don't know. I'm still exploring, trying
        to arrive at the
        > most sensible theory.
        >
        > Summary: I think the two names are both from an IE level
        and
        > related by religious wordplay.
        >
        > I'll get to the other messages soon. I have to sleep now
        and save my
        > strength to fight the new year. Nighty night and may
        everyone have an
        > ordered lifespan under the sun of the 3rd millenium... We
        probably won't
        > live to the next millenium, so we better make this one
        good... That reminds
        > me, I must invest in bioengineering companies... [wink
        wink] :)
        >
        > - gLeN
      • Glen Gordon
        ... I m not sure exactly. :) The more I revisit this idea, the more I discover new aspects, none of which give me ultimate illumination on the matter but
        Message 3 of 3 , Jan 1, 2001
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          Chris G:
          >I am still a bit shaky on what you are saying about *Pexwr-G^ene:s'
          >connection to *PerkWonos - can you clarify/restate it a bit?
          >
          >Are you saying that the names *Pexwr-G^ene:s and *PerkWonos are
          >linguistically related, or simply that they are alternate names for >the
          >same god? Or am I simply confused.

          I'm not sure exactly. :) The more I revisit this idea, the more I discover
          new aspects, none of which give me ultimate illumination on the matter but
          damned if they aren't interesting. It certainly seems like one name is a
          mutation of the other but I'm not sure what's what yet. The epithet "Fire
          Born" must signify something in IE myth because it obviously appears to
          reoccur over and over as we've seen. I'm not sure how it might have
          described the storm deity *PerkWnos however.

          Obviously, lightning is not "born of fire", nor is a storm, unless perhaps
          this truely describes the roar of thunder that follows a flash of lightning.
          (Of course, if *PerkWnos is simply "storm", then he is both "lightning fire"
          AND "thunder", so... does "Fire Born" imply an "autogenesis"?? Argh, no
          comprendo, se�or!)

          Yet, on the other hand, I don't understand why there is a connection between
          oak trees, lightning and this storm deity which underlies the accepted name
          *PerkWnos. It would almost seem that the connection is on an abstract level,
          caused by a linguistic pun of an earlier *Pexwr-G^ene:s, corrupted by other
          similar words like "to strike" and *perkWos "oak" giving the deity
          additional aspects and purposes that had never existed before in the
          original EuroAnatolian protomyth with the "Baal"-ish counterpart.

          Yet, on a third hand (lended to me by a friend :P), how does "Fire Born"
          relate exactly to IE myth? Am I correct? Is it simply his thunderous roar
          being "born" from lightning? Does it perhaps have something to do with the
          story of Odin and his Christly self-sacrifice on the tree? Somehow born from
          fire? Born from ashes? Born from a tree's ashes?? Is a tree struck by
          lightning considered a holy event where *PerkWnos is metaphorically "nailed"
          to the tree, only to rise to the sky (via the smoke of the blazing tree) and
          become reborn?? I don't know. I'm still exploring, trying to arrive at the
          most sensible theory.

          Summary: I think the two names are both from an IE level and
          related by religious wordplay.

          I'll get to the other messages soon. I have to sleep now and save my
          strength to fight the new year. Nighty night and may everyone have an
          ordered lifespan under the sun of the 3rd millenium... We probably won't
          live to the next millenium, so we better make this one good... That reminds
          me, I must invest in bioengineering companies... [wink wink] :)

          - gLeN


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