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Re: Similarities in Caucasian languages to Indo-European

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  • Peter P
    ... FU 5 - *viite/*vitte 10 - *luka Häkkinen in her etymological dictionary discourages trying to equate Finnish kämmen hand and kymmenen 10 for reasons
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 2, 2008
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      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "afyangh" <fournet.arnaud@...> wrote:
      >

      > Arnaud
      > I would rather cut penkwe as pen = pan "whole" and kwe "hand".
      > From k-m?-
      > As in Hebreu t-?-m?- "twin" > PIE d-w (t+? = d)
      > Hence from k-m?
      > Arabic x-m-s (x = velar unvoiced spirant)
      > Uralic kom-t, kum-en, hand, five, ten

      FU

      5 - *viite/*vitte
      10 - *luka

      Häkkinen in her etymological dictionary discourages trying to equate
      Finnish 'kämmen' hand and 'kymmenen' 10 "for reasons of sound change
      mixture".


      > PIE pen-kwe : entire hand = five
      > And as usual !!
      > Germanic loanword from an Asiatic language : komt > hand
      > And *hant-i being a "root-noun" does not protect it from being a
      loanword.
      >
      > Arnaud
      > ========
      >
    • fournet.arnaud
      ... From: Peter P To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 1:47 AM Subject: [Courrier indésirable] [tied] Re: Similarities in Caucasian
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 3, 2008
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Peter P
        Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 1:47 AM
        Subject: [Courrier indésirable] [tied] Re: Similarities in Caucasian languages to Indo-European

        --- In cybalist@yahoogroup s.com, "afyangh" <fournet.arnaud@ ...> wrote:
        FU

        5 - *viite/*vitte
        10 - *luka

        Häkkinen in her etymological dictionary discourages trying to equate
        Finnish 'kämmen' hand and 'kymmenen' 10 "for reasons of sound change
        mixture".

        ======
        Arnaud
        What does "discourage" mean ?
         
        I suppose Uralic "had the right" to have vocalic apophony
        in a given consonantal skeleton.
         
        > Arnaud
        > ========
        >

      • tgpedersen
        ... If the two words can t be related using the rules of FU linguistics, which it seems Häkkinen is saying, they might be related in some other language
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 3, 2008
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          > > FU
          > >
          > > 5 - *viite/*vitte
          > > 10 - *luka
          > >
          > > Häkkinen in her etymological dictionary discourages trying to
          > > equate Finnish 'kämmen' hand and 'kymmenen' 10 "for reasons of
          > > sound change
          > > mixture".
          >
          > What does "discourage" mean ?
          >
          > I suppose Uralic "had the right" to have vocalic apophony
          > in a given consonantal skeleton.
          >

          If the two words can't be related using the rules of FU linguistics,
          which it seems Häkkinen is saying, they might be related in some other
          language (family), ie. be loans.


          Torsten
        • Peter P
          ... Caucasian languages to Indo-European ... I misquoted her a little above. From p. 133 of Nykysuomen sanakirja 6 - Etymologinen sanakirja Under kymmenen 10
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 3, 2008
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            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Peter P
            > To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 1:47 AM
            > Subject: [Courrier indésirable] [tied] Re: Similarities in
            Caucasian languages to Indo-European
            >
            >
            > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "afyangh" <fournet.arnaud@> wrote:
            > FU
            >
            > 5 - *viite/*vitte
            > 10 - *luka
            >
            > Häkkinen in her etymological dictionary discourages trying to equate
            > Finnish 'kämmen' hand and 'kymmenen' 10 "for reasons of sound change
            > mixture".
            >
            > ======
            > Arnaud
            > What does "discourage" mean ?
            >
            I misquoted her a little above.

            From p. 133 of Nykysuomen sanakirja 6 - Etymologinen sanakirja

            Under 'kymmenen' 10

            ...Sanaa on aiemmin arveltu kämmen-sanan variantiksi, jolloin
            yhdistävä merkityselementi voisi olla viittaus sormien lukumäärään.
            Tämä selitys on kuitenkin mm. ääneseikkojen nojalla torjuttu. ...

            Of the word, it was previously thought to be variant of the word kämen
            in so far as the uniting element of meaning may be a sign towards the
            sum of fingers. However this explanation on the basis of sound
            manipulations among others, is denied.

            Interesting, that she uses the word lukumäärä – sum (total) < *luka, 10

            Peter P

            > I suppose Uralic "had the right" to have vocalic apophony
            > in a given consonantal skeleton.
            >
            > > Arnaud
            > > ========
            > >
            >
          • Peter P
            ... That could make sense since my Finnish dictionaries do not give clear etymologies for either word. AFAIK kymmenen only appears in Finnic and Mordvin so
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 3, 2008
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              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > > > FU
              > > >
              > > > 5 - *viite/*vitte
              > > > 10 - *luka
              > > >
              > > > Häkkinen in her etymological dictionary discourages trying to
              > > > equate Finnish 'kämmen' hand and 'kymmenen' 10 "for reasons of
              > > > sound change
              > > > mixture".
              > >
              > > What does "discourage" mean ?
              > >
              > > I suppose Uralic "had the right" to have vocalic apophony
              > > in a given consonantal skeleton.
              > >
              >
              > If the two words can't be related using the rules of FU linguistics,
              > which it seems Häkkinen is saying, they might be related in some other
              > language (family), ie. be loans.
              >
              >
              > Torsten
              >
              That could make sense since my Finnish dictionaries do not give clear
              etymologies for either word. AFAIK kymmenen only appears in Finnic
              and Mordvin so probably is not FU or Uralic.

              Kämmen is distributed wider including cognates in Ob-Ugric.

              Peter P
            • tgpedersen
              ... Pokorny: kan-tho- Ecke, Biegung ; wohl aus kam-tho- zu kam-p- biegen . Gr. kanthós Augenwinkel ; in der Bedeutung Radreifen Bed.-Lw. aus lat. cantus;
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 21, 2008
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                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > > > Hence from k-m?
                > > > Arabic x-m-s (x = velar unvoiced spirant)
                > > > Uralic kom-t, kum-en, hand, five, ten
                > > > PIE pen-kwe : entire hand = five
                > > > And as usual !!
                > > > Germanic loanword from an Asiatic language : komt > hand
                > > > And *hant-i being a "root-noun" does not protect it from being a
                > > > loanword.
                > >
                > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/21834
                > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/21865
                > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/46175
                > > http://tinyurl.com/2c4yse
                > > Udolph denies a relation of the German placename second element
                > > -hude, Engl. -hythe, "wood storage place, storage at a waterway,
                > > ferry berth" to the appellatives (non-placenames)
                > > AS hunt, huntian, Goth. fra-hinþan "hunt, catch",
                > > but accepts
                > > NLG hude, hüde "hiding place"
                > > Gr. kanthós "corner of the eye", kontós "nail",
                > > Welsh cethr "point, nail",
                > > OHG hantego, handego "sharp, pointed",
                > > Proto-Slav. *ko,t- >
                > > Russ. kut "the end of a river",
                > > Ukr. kut "narrow, angular bay"
                > > Pol. ka,t "remains of old river bend"
                > > In the sense "house" common in Slavic, in SSlavic in the sense
                > > "house"
                > >
                > > cf. unshifted NHG Kante "edge, esp. of water"
                > > assuming a sense "hidden" also unshifted
                > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/46174
                > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/46179
                > >
                > > and Grimm-shifted German Hode "testicle"?
                >
                > Oops, forgot
                > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/46155
                > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/50267
                > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/50281
                > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/50293


                Pokorny:
                kan-tho- "Ecke, Biegung"; wohl aus kam-tho- zu kam-p- "biegen".
                Gr. kanthós "Augenwinkel";
                in der Bedeutung "Radreifen" Bed.-Lw. aus lat. cantus;
                lat. cantus "eiserner Radreifen" ist wieder Lw. aus:
                gall. (auch gallo-rom.) *cantos "eiserner Reifen, Rand, Ecke",
                cymr. cant (daher ceiniog "Penny") ds.,
                bret. kant "Kreis",
                air. cétad "(runder) Sitz" aus *kanto-sedo-,
                mir. cét "runder Steinpfeiler";
                Ableitungen: gall. centelon, wohl "Pfeiler",
                cantena, kantena dss.?;
                auch gall. cando-soccus "Rebsenker",
                lies canto-soccus (zu gall. succo- "Schweineschnauze, Pflugschar";
                vgl. Jud Arch. Rom. VI 210f.);
                abret. int coucant "vollständig";
                mcymr. yn geugant ds.
                (eigentl. "sehr erfahren" aus *kowo-kantos zu keu- "worauf achten",
                lat. caveo:);
                zu kant "Kreis" > "vollkommen"
                vgl. acymr. lloergαnt "voller Mond";
                cymr. cant "Schar", dazu mir. céte (*kantya:) "Versammlung",
                wohl als *"Hundertschaft"
                identisch mit cymr. cant "100" oben S. 92;
                slav. *ko,tU m. "Winkel" in russ.-ksl. kutU usw.
                WP. I 351 f., WH. I 155 f., Loth RC 42, 353 f., 47, 170 ff., Vendryes
                RC 45, 331 ff.


                Which I think (Pokorny doesn't) belongs to
                Pokorny 2. ak^-, ok^- "scharf, spitz, kantig" und "Stein".

                note the note
                Schwundstufiges k^- steckt wahrscheinlich in den Stämmen
                k^emen-, k^emel-, k^o:men-, "Stein, Himmel",
                k^omor- "Steinhammer",
                k^e:i-, ko:i-, k&i- "schärfen, wetzen",
                k^u(:)- "spitz, Spiess".
                to which I would add
                *k^-ant above, Alteuropäisch -ant suffix.

                Nice match semantically. The k^/k thing I don't worry too much about,
                considering the performance of the *ak- root in Baltic.


                Torsten
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