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Cognates & etymology of English net

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  • alexandru_mg3
    1. English net
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 12, 2007
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      1. English net < OE nett < Germanic *nat- < PIE *nad-

      2. If Latin nassa,nassis belongs here < PIE *nad-t-

      3. Romanian nad& is considered from Bulgarian nada ....
      http://dexonline.ro/search.php?cuv=nada
      Any hint regarding the etymology of Bulgarian form?

      Thanks,
      Marius
    • stlatos
      ... H2 = x (or G in some voiced env.) If *nad+ = *nx,d+ / *naxd+ then the derivative *nx,dti+s might have become *natti+z in Gmc if the analysis below is
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 13, 2007
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@...>
        wrote:

        > 1. English net < OE nett < Germanic *nat- < PIE *nad-
        >
        > 2. If Latin nassa,nassis belongs here < PIE *nad-t-
        >
        > 3. Romanian nad& is considered from Bulgarian nada ....
        > http://dexonline.ro/search.php?cuv=nada
        > Any hint regarding the etymology of Bulgarian form?

        H2 = x (or G in some voiced env.)

        If *nad+ = *nx,d+ / *naxd+ then the derivative *nx,dti+s might have
        become *natti+z in Gmc if the analysis below is correct:

        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/post?act=reply&messageNum=50298

        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@...> wrote:

        > It's also possible that *kaxdh+ >> *kx,dhtu+s > *xattu+z if there
        > was no t>s after a fricative and if tt didn't become a interdental
        > fric. gemin. later, depending on the rules.

        Latin nassa / naxa is probably from *nakssa: < *nasska: < *nadska:
        derived from the verb *nx,dsYkYox ( > OIr -nascim 'I bind').
      • Piotr Gasiorowski
        ... But the -tt- occurs only in West Germanic (as in OE nett-), where it reflects the regular WGmc. gemination before *j (*natja- *nattja-). The Gmc. forms
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 13, 2007
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          On 2007-11-13 23:31, stlatos wrote:

          > If *nad+ = *nx,d+ / *naxd+ then the derivative *nx,dti+s might have
          > become *natti+z in Gmc ...

          But the -tt- occurs only in West Germanic (as in OE nett-), where it
          reflects the regular WGmc. gemination before *j (*natja- > *nattja-).
          The Gmc. forms go back to n. *nat-ja- ~ f. *nat-jo:. Their relationship
          with Lat. nassa can't be direct; the latter may reflect *nad-ta:,
          possibly with */nhd-/ as in lassus < *l&1d-to-.

          Piotr
        • alexandru_mg3
          ... have ... relationship ... Hello Piotr, Could you give me a feedback too, fon the Bulgarian nada and on the related Slavic forms (if any) Thanks, Marius
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 14, 2007
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            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:
            >
            > On 2007-11-13 23:31, stlatos wrote:
            >
            > > If *nad+ = *nx,d+ / *naxd+ then the derivative *nx,dti+s might
            have
            > > become *natti+z in Gmc ...
            >
            > But the -tt- occurs only in West Germanic (as in OE nett-), where it
            > reflects the regular WGmc. gemination before *j (*natja- > *nattja-).
            > The Gmc. forms go back to n. *nat-ja- ~ f. *nat-jo:. Their
            relationship
            > with Lat. nassa can't be direct; the latter may reflect *nad-ta:,
            > possibly with */nhd-/ as in lassus < *l&1d-to-.
            >
            > Piotr
            >

            Hello Piotr,
            Could you give me a feedback too, fon the Bulgarian nada and on the
            related Slavic forms (if any)

            Thanks,
            Marius
          • stlatos
            ... It s not that simple; the words from *nx,dtis, *nx,dtLa:x nettle , etc., lose either d or t in certain languages (apparently due in most cases to the odd
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 14, 2007
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              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:
              >
              > On 2007-11-13 23:31, stlatos wrote:
              >
              > > If *nad+ = *nx,d+ / *naxd+ then the derivative *nx,dti+s might have
              > > become *natti+z in Gmc ...
              >
              > But the -tt- occurs only in West Germanic (as in OE nett-), where it
              > reflects the regular WGmc. gemination before *j (*natja- > *nattja-).

              It's not that simple; the words from *nx,dtis, *nx,dtLa:x 'nettle',
              etc., lose either d or t in certain languages (apparently due in most
              cases to the odd series of C together). It's possible that d>0 in Gmc
              instead, but the possible changes that could affect either path aren't
              clear enough for me to choose one with certainty.

              Even though some of the other IE languages have more extensive
              changes, other similar words with the same or similar changes within
              the same language allow more certainty about them.

              > The Gmc. forms go back to n. *nat-ja- ~ f. *nat-jo:. Their relationship
              > with Lat. nassa can't be direct; the latter may reflect *nad-ta:,
              > possibly with */nhd-/ as in lassus < *l&1d-to-.

              I didn't say it was direct. Since I wanted to explain naxa, I said
              it was probably from *nx,dhsYkY()+ like OIr nasc.
            • tgpedersen
              ... have ... it ... Udolph (Namenkundliche Studien zum Germanenproblem, I don t have the book here) looks at river names in *not-, Notiec etc (cf. german nass,
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 15, 2007
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                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > On 2007-11-13 23:31, stlatos wrote:
                >
                > > If *nad+ = *nx,d+ / *naxd+ then the derivative *nx,dti+s might
                have
                > > become *natti+z in Gmc ...
                >
                > But the -tt- occurs only in West Germanic (as in OE nett-), where
                it
                > reflects the regular WGmc. gemination before *j (*natja- > *nattja-
                > ). The Gmc. forms go back to n. *nat-ja- ~ f. *nat-jo:. Their
                > relationship with Lat. nassa can't be direct; the latter may
                > reflect *nad-ta:, possibly with */nhd-/ as in lassus < *l&1d-to-.

                Udolph (Namenkundliche Studien zum Germanenproblem, I don't have the
                book here) looks at river names in *not-, Notiec etc (cf. german
                nass, Dutch nat "wet"). In order to save Germania for the Germani he
                has to posit a proto-proto-Germanic 'backward' shift *t > *d etc,
                before Grimm's *d > *t, to explain the embarrassing fact that
                Germania has those names with *t. That can't be right; it seems the
                root is non-IE.


                Torsten
              • Piotr Gasiorowski
                ... Or non-Germanic IE. If you mean the Notec (Ger. Netze), its older Slavic name was *notIsI. It is high on the list of suspected Venetic names (meaning
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 15, 2007
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                  On 2007-11-15 10:54, tgpedersen wrote:

                  > Udolph (Namenkundliche Studien zum Germanenproblem, I don't have the
                  > book here) looks at river names in *not-, Notiec etc (cf. german
                  > nass, Dutch nat "wet"). In order to save Germania for the Germani he
                  > has to posit a proto-proto-Germanic 'backward' shift *t > *d etc,
                  > before Grimm's *d > *t, to explain the embarrassing fact that
                  > Germania has those names with *t. That can't be right; it seems the
                  > root is non-IE.

                  Or non-Germanic IE. If you mean the Notec' (Ger. Netze), its older
                  Slavic name was *notIsI. It is high on the list of suspected "Venetic"
                  names (meaning that the language it came from is supposed to be
                  Italoid), cf. ancient Natissa/Natiso: (the Natisone):

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natisone

                  Perhaps one ought to allow for enclaves of residual IE languages here
                  and there in Germania, not yet completely engulfed by Germanic at the
                  time of Grimm's Law.

                  Piotr
                • tgpedersen
                  ... The way I recall it, there wasn t any lacunae on the map where those reverse Grimm names didn t occur within Germania. Udolph pronounced that these
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 23, 2007
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                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > On 2007-11-15 10:54, tgpedersen wrote:
                    >
                    > > Udolph (Namenkundliche Studien zum Germanenproblem, I don't have
                    > > the book here) looks at river names in *not-, Notiec etc (cf.
                    > > German nass, Dutch nat "wet"). In order to save Germania for the
                    > > Germani he has to posit a proto-proto-Germanic 'backward' shift *t
                    > > > *d etc, before Grimm's *d > *t, to explain the embarrassing fact
                    > > that Germania has those names with *t. That can't be right; it
                    > > seems the root is non-IE.
                    >
                    > Or non-Germanic IE. If you mean the Notec' (Ger. Netze), its older
                    > Slavic name was *notIsI. It is high on the list of suspected
                    > "Venetic" names (meaning that the language it came from is supposed
                    > to be Italoid), cf. ancient Natissa/Natiso: (the Natisone):
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natisone
                    >
                    > Perhaps one ought to allow for enclaves of residual IE languages
                    > here and there in Germania, not yet completely engulfed by Germanic
                    > at the time of Grimm's Law.

                    The way I recall it, there wasn't any lacunae on the map where those
                    "reverse Grimm" names didn't occur within Germania. Udolph pronounced
                    that these reverse-Grimm changes took place only in a number of words,
                    irregularly (now where did I hear that before?). I've ordered Udolph's
                    book again from the library, just to be sure.
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jastorf_culture


                    BTW
                    Note on the Jastorf map the 'Przeworsk-influenced Gubiner group'

                    from Rolf Hachmann:
                    Germanen und Kelten am Rhein in der Zeit um Christi Geburt, in
                    the 'Dreimännerbuch' by Hachmann, Kossack and Kuhn.

                    "Innerhalb dieses Gebietes [appr. the NWBlock-area] treten -
                    vielleicht gegen Mitte des letzten vorchristlichen Jahrhunderts oder
                    etwas früher - vereinzelt Fremderscheinungen auf, nämlich einige
                    wenige Gräber in der Wetterau, die in Keramik, Metallformen und
                    Grabsitte im Lande selbst keinerlei unmittelbare Vorläufer besitzen
                    (Taf. 8,1-14). Die Tonware ist in der Regel handgemacht. Sie hat aber
                    weder Vorformen in der einheimischen handgemachten Ware noch irgend»
                    welche Gegenstücke in der handgearbeiteten Tonware nördlich der Lippe.
                    Nächstverwandtes findet sich in Mitteldeutschland, wo indes Gräber mit
                    gleichen Kulturmerkmalen, obwohl sehr viel zahlreicher als in der
                    Wetterau vertreten, innerhalb des einheimischen Milieus ebenso
                    fremdartig wirken wie weiter westlich. Erst wesentlich weiter im
                    Osten, jenseits der Oder und Neiße in Schlesien, Posen und Südpolen,
                    begegnet eine Kulturgruppe, die den Fremderscheinungen in der Wetterau
                    in allen wesentlichen Merkmalen gleicht (Taf. 8, 15-24). Es ist die
                    Oder=Warthe=Gruppe oder Przeworsker Kultur, wie sie im polnischen
                    Schrifttum genannt wird. Die Spuren dieser Kultur verschwinden in der
                    Wetterau bereits wieder vor dem Ende des letzten vorchristlichen
                    Jahrhunderts."

                    Map of the Wetterau:
                    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetteraukreis
                    Obviously identical to the 'Gubiner group'. The invasion (I take it to
                    be) of this area was then a forerunner for further expansion from the
                    east:

                    Hachmann continues:
                    "Um Christi Geburt ändert sich dann im Raum zwischen Rhein und
                    Leine-tal das kulturelle Bild. Westlich des Rheins wird allenthalben
                    römischer Einfluß spürbar, der alsbald die bodenständige Kultur zu
                    überdecken beginnt, ohne indes deren innere Kontinuität wesentlich zu
                    stören (Taf. 9, 8-15). Anders östlich des Flusses. Hier brechen viele
                    Gräberfelder und =gruppen unvermittelt ab. Großsiedlungen und feste
                    Plätze veröden. Die Hüttenplätze im Siegerland werden verlassen, wie
                    überhaupt die Besiedlung im Gebiet der oberen Sieg für Jahrhunderte
                    aufhört. Es finden sich keinerlei Anzeichen für bodenständige
                    Münzprägung mehr. Keltisches Geld kursiert offenbar nicht mehr, und es
                    gibt zunächst nur bescheidene Indizien für den Umlauf römischer
                    Münzen. Nur in der Wetterau halten sich noch Reste der alten Kultur.
                    Alle kulturellen Wandlungen bewirken, daß der Rhein zu einer scharfen
                    Kulturgrenze wird, und diese Grenze bleibt für Jahrhunderte ziemlich
                    unverändert bestehen."


                    Torsten
                  • fournet.arnaud
                    It seems we are back to last summer s issue about pseudo-celtic *nant- valley, river , and my controversial conclusion that this word is connected with Basque
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 25, 2007
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                      It seems we are back to last summer's issue about
                      pseudo-celtic *nant- "valley, river",
                      and my controversial conclusion that this word is connected with Basque
                      lats and harran and with Etruscan ner-
                      So you bumped on another variant of this paleo-european word *nant?-
                       
                      Do you have aanother map to be added to the files ?
                       
                      Arnaud
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 1:01 AM
                      Subject: [Courrier indésirable] [tied] Re: Cognates & etymology of English net

                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroup s.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > On 2007-11-15 10:54, tgpedersen wrote:
                      >
                      > > Udolph (Namenkundliche Studien zum Germanenproblem, I don't have
                      > > the book here) looks at river names in *not-, Notiec etc (cf.
                      > > German nass, Dutch nat "wet"). In order to save Germania for the
                      > > Germani he has to posit a proto-proto- Germanic 'backward' shift *t
                      > > > *d etc, before Grimm's *d > *t, to explain the embarrassing fact
                      > > that Germania has those names with *t. That can't be right; it
                      > > seems the root is non-IE.
                      >
                      > Or non-Germanic IE. If you mean the Notec' (Ger. Netze), its older
                      > Slavic name was *notIsI. It is high on the list of suspected
                      > "Venetic" names (meaning that the language it came from is supposed
                      > to be Italoid), cf. ancient Natissa/Natiso: (the Natisone):
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Natisone
                      >
                      > Perhaps one ought to allow for enclaves of residual IE languages
                      > here and there in Germania, not yet completely engulfed by Germanic
                      > at the time of Grimm's Law.

                      The way I recall it, there wasn't any lacunae on the map where those
                      "reverse Grimm" names didn't occur within Germania. Udolph pronounced
                      that these reverse-Grimm changes took place only in a number of words,
                      irregularly (now where did I hear that before?). I've ordered Udolph's
                      book again from the library, just to be sure.
                      http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Jastorf_culture

                      BTW
                      Note on the Jastorf map the 'Przeworsk-influenc ed Gubiner group'

                      from Rolf Hachmann:
                      Germanen und Kelten am Rhein in der Zeit um Christi Geburt, in
                      the 'Dreimännerbuch' by Hachmann, Kossack and Kuhn.

                      "Innerhalb dieses Gebietes [appr. the NWBlock-area] treten -
                      vielleicht gegen Mitte des letzten vorchristlichen Jahrhunderts oder
                      etwas früher - vereinzelt Fremderscheinungen auf, nämlich einige
                      wenige Gräber in der Wetterau, die in Keramik, Metallformen und
                      Grabsitte im Lande selbst keinerlei unmittelbare Vorläufer besitzen
                      (Taf. 8,1-14). Die Tonware ist in der Regel handgemacht. Sie hat aber
                      weder Vorformen in der einheimischen handgemachten Ware noch irgend»
                      welche Gegenstücke in der handgearbeiteten Tonware nördlich der Lippe.
                      Nächstverwandtes findet sich in Mitteldeutschland, wo indes Gräber mit
                      gleichen Kulturmerkmalen, obwohl sehr viel zahlreicher als in der
                      Wetterau vertreten, innerhalb des einheimischen Milieus ebenso
                      fremdartig wirken wie weiter westlich. Erst wesentlich weiter im
                      Osten, jenseits der Oder und Neiße in Schlesien, Posen und Südpolen,
                      begegnet eine Kulturgruppe, die den Fremderscheinungen in der Wetterau
                      in allen wesentlichen Merkmalen gleicht (Taf. 8, 15-24). Es ist die
                      Oder=Warthe= Gruppe oder Przeworsker Kultur, wie sie im polnischen
                      Schrifttum genannt wird. Die Spuren dieser Kultur verschwinden in der
                      Wetterau bereits wieder vor dem Ende des letzten vorchristlichen
                      Jahrhunderts. "

                      Map of the Wetterau:
                      http://de.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Wetteraukreis
                      Obviously identical to the 'Gubiner group'. The invasion (I take it to
                      be) of this area was then a forerunner for further expansion from the
                      east:

                      Hachmann continues:
                      "Um Christi Geburt ändert sich dann im Raum zwischen Rhein und
                      Leine-tal das kulturelle Bild. Westlich des Rheins wird allenthalben
                      römischer Einfluß spürbar, der alsbald die bodenständige Kultur zu
                      überdecken beginnt, ohne indes deren innere Kontinuität wesentlich zu
                      stören (Taf. 9, 8-15). Anders östlich des Flusses. Hier brechen viele
                      Gräberfelder und =gruppen unvermittelt ab. Großsiedlungen und feste
                      Plätze veröden. Die Hüttenplätze im Siegerland werden verlassen, wie
                      überhaupt die Besiedlung im Gebiet der oberen Sieg für Jahrhunderte
                      aufhört. Es finden sich keinerlei Anzeichen für bodenständige
                      Münzprägung mehr. Keltisches Geld kursiert offenbar nicht mehr, und es
                      gibt zunächst nur bescheidene Indizien für den Umlauf römischer
                      Münzen. Nur in der Wetterau halten sich noch Reste der alten Kultur.
                      Alle kulturellen Wandlungen bewirken, daß der Rhein zu einer scharfen
                      Kulturgrenze wird, und diese Grenze bleibt für Jahrhunderte ziemlich
                      unverändert bestehen."

                      Torsten

                    • tgpedersen
                      ... I hadn t even thought of that one. It s worth considering. ... Not until I get Udolph s book from the library. Torsten
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 25, 2007
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                        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > It seems we are back to last summer's issue about
                        > pseudo-celtic *nant- "valley, river",
                        > and my controversial conclusion that this word is connected with
                        > Basque lats and harran and with Etruscan ner-
                        > So you bumped on another variant of this paleo-european word *nant?-

                        I hadn't even thought of that one. It's worth considering.
                        >
                        > Do you have aanother map to be added to the files ?

                        Not until I get Udolph's book from the library.


                        Torsten
                      • tgpedersen
                        ... ie. Völker zwischen Germanen und Kelten ... Translation Within this area [appr. the NWBlock area] - perhaps toward the middle of the last century BCE
                        Message 11 of 23 , Nov 26, 2007
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                          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jastorf_culture
                          >
                          >
                          > BTW
                          > Note on the Jastorf map the 'Przeworsk-influenced Gubiner group'
                          >
                          > from Rolf Hachmann:
                          > Germanen und Kelten am Rhein in der Zeit um Christi Geburt, in
                          > the 'Dreimännerbuch' by Hachmann, Kossack and Kuhn.
                          ie.
                          'Völker zwischen Germanen und Kelten'

                          > "Innerhalb dieses Gebietes [appr. the NWBlock-area] treten -
                          > vielleicht gegen Mitte des letzten vorchristlichen Jahrhunderts oder
                          > etwas früher - vereinzelt Fremderscheinungen auf, nämlich einige
                          > wenige Gräber in der Wetterau, die in Keramik, Metallformen und
                          > Grabsitte im Lande selbst keinerlei unmittelbare Vorläufer besitzen
                          > (Taf. 8,1-14). Die Tonware ist in der Regel handgemacht. Sie hat
                          > aber weder Vorformen in der einheimischen handgemachten Ware noch
                          > irgendwelche Gegenstücke in der handgearbeiteten Tonware nördlich
                          > der Lippe. Nächstverwandtes findet sich in Mitteldeutschland, wo
                          > indes Gräber mit gleichen Kulturmerkmalen, obwohl sehr viel
                          > zahlreicher als in der Wetterau vertreten, innerhalb des
                          > einheimischen Milieus ebenso fremdartig wirken wie weiter westlich.
                          > Erst wesentlich weiter im Osten, jenseits der Oder und Neiße in
                          > Schlesien, Posen und Südpolen, begegnet eine Kulturgruppe, die den
                          > Fremderscheinungen in der Wetterau in allen wesentlichen Merkmalen
                          > gleicht (Taf. 8, 15-24). Es ist die Oder=Warthe=Gruppe oder
                          > Przeworsker Kultur, wie sie im polnischen Schrifttum genannt wird.
                          > Die Spuren dieser Kultur verschwinden in der Wetterau bereits wieder
                          > vor dem Ende des letzten vorchristlichen Jahrhunderts."

                          Translation
                          "Within this area [appr. the NWBlock area] - perhaps toward the middle
                          of the last century BCE or somewhat earlier - occasional foreign
                          phenomena appear, namely a few graves in the Wetterau, which in
                          earthenware, metal objects or grave customs have no precedent in the
                          area itself... The earthenware is generally hand-made. It has,
                          however, no ancestor forms in the local hand-made ware nor any
                          counterparts in the hand-made earthenware north of the Lippe. The most
                          closely related objects and phenomena are found in Central Germany
                          where however graves with the same cultural characteristics,
                          although much more numerously represented as in the Wetterau, appear
                          equally foreign as further west. Only significantly further in the
                          East, beyond the Oder and Neisse in Silesia, Posen [the area around
                          Poznan´, of which I don't know the Polish name] and in southern Poland
                          do we meet a cultural group which matches the foreign appearance of
                          the Wetterau in all relevant characteristics... It is the Oder-Warthe
                          group, or Przeworsk culture, as it is called in the Polish
                          archaeological literature. The traces of this culture in the Wetterau
                          disappear again already before the end of the last century BCE."

                          >
                          > Map of the Wetterau:
                          > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetteraukreis
                          > Obviously identical to the 'Gubiner group'. The invasion (I take it
                          > to be) of this area was then a forerunner for further expansion from
                          > the east:
                          >
                          > Hachmann continues:
                          > "Um Christi Geburt ändert sich dann im Raum zwischen Rhein und
                          > Leine-tal das kulturelle Bild. Westlich des Rheins wird allenthalben
                          > römischer Einfluß spürbar, der alsbald die bodenständige Kultur zu
                          > überdecken beginnt, ohne indes deren innere Kontinuität wesentlich
                          > zu stören (Taf. 9, 8-15). Anders östlich des Flusses. Hier brechen
                          > viele Gräberfelder und =gruppen unvermittelt ab. Großsiedlungen und
                          > feste Plätze veröden. Die Hüttenplätze im Siegerland werden
                          > verlassen, wie überhaupt die Besiedlung im Gebiet der oberen Sieg
                          > für Jahrhunderte aufhört. Es finden sich keinerlei Anzeichen für
                          > bodenständige Münzprägung mehr. Keltisches Geld kursiert offenbar
                          > nicht mehr, und es gibt zunächst nur bescheidene Indizien für den
                          > Umlauf römischer Münzen. Nur in der Wetterau halten sich noch Reste
                          > der alten Kultur. Alle kulturellen Wandlungen bewirken, daß der
                          > Rhein zu einer scharfen Kulturgrenze wird, und diese Grenze bleibt
                          > für Jahrhunderte ziemlich unverändert bestehen."

                          Translation
                          "Around the birth of Christ then the cultural image in the area
                          between Rhine and Leine valley changes. West of the Rhine, Roman
                          influence become noticeable everywhere, which immediately begins to
                          overlay the indigenous culture, without however disturbing its inner
                          continuity significantly... Not so east of the river. Here many grave
                          fields and groups break off without transition. Large settlements and
                          fixed sites become wasteland. The hut sites of Siegerland are
                          abandoned, as generally inhabitation in the area of the upper Sieg
                          ceases for centuries. No indications are found of indigenous
                          production of coins. Celtic coins apparently do not circulate any
                          more, and there is initially only modest signs of the circulation of
                          Roman coins. Only in the Wetterau remains of the old culture hold on.
                          All these cultural changes have the effect that the Rhine becomes a
                          sharp cultural boundary, and this boundary stays rather unchanged for
                          centuries."

                          Note Tacitus' (I think it was) remark that Germanic tribes wanted to
                          have wasteland around their area, for security. One might get the idea
                          that the Wetterau culture was spared because it was related to that of
                          the invaders.

                          cf.
                          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/50154


                          Torsten
                        • Piotr Gasiorowski
                          ... It s Wielkopolska, often translated as Greater Poland or Great Poland (Ger. Großpolen, Lat. Polonia Maior in Mediaeval documents), as opposed to
                          Message 12 of 23 , Nov 26, 2007
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                            On 2007-11-26 11:55, tgpedersen wrote:

                            > Posen [the area around Poznan´, of which I don't know the Polish name]

                            It's Wielkopolska, often translated as Greater Poland or Great Poland
                            (Ger. Großpolen, Lat. Polonia Maior in Mediaeval documents), as opposed
                            to Mal/opolska (Polonia Minor) for the southeastern part of the country,
                            with Cracow (Kraków) as the capital city. The present-day political
                            centre of gravity (Mazowsze/Masovia, with what is now Warsaw) was not
                            fully incorporated into the Polish kingdom until the 16th c.

                            The adjectives Maior and Minor don't refer to the size of the provinces
                            (Lesser Poland was actually the bigger of the two) but to the historical
                            order of "becoming Polish": Greater Poland was where the state was first
                            established and given its name. Kraków (previously incorporated into
                            Bohemia) was conquered by the Polish rulers in the last decades of the
                            10th c. in circumstances that are not quite clear.

                            Piotr
                          • tgpedersen
                            ... I ve uploaded under Placenames untouched by Grimm a couple of placename maps from Udolph, among them those in *nVt-; note that those that are ältere
                            Message 13 of 23 , Nov 30, 2007
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                              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > It seems we are back to last summer's issue about
                              > pseudo-celtic *nant- "valley, river",
                              > and my controversial conclusion that this word is connected with
                              > Basque lats and harran and with Etruscan ner-
                              > So you bumped on another variant of this paleo-european word *nant?-
                              > Do you have aanother map to be added to the files ?

                              I've uploaded under 'Placenames untouched by Grimm' a couple of
                              placename maps from Udolph, among them those in *nVt-; note that those
                              that are 'ältere Bildungen' (eg. with suffix *-isV) are noted as
                              coming from *nVd- (> *nVt-) inside Germania, as according to Udolph's
                              complicated theory, those in *nVt- outside. Udolph's material seems to
                              point to forms in *-tt- and *-ss- in Germania.

                              I want to propose something radical:

                              1) the original root is *n,Wet- meaning "went tangled mass", a
                              derivation of *akw-, *an,W- "water"

                              2) the substrate roots *matt- "mat" and *mass- "mass" are related

                              3) the donor language was spoken by the LBK-Rössen culture.

                              Facts that feel comfortable with this theory (I won't even call them
                              evidence)

                              a) Udolph: Notter (tributary of the Unstrut) ... to which
                              Nater-(Notter)gau, 997 Uater-, Natergowe etc

                              b) The roots *nat- and *we(:)t- "wet" are distributed complementarily
                              in Germanic (*nat- in Dutch and German, *we(:)t- in English and North
                              Germanic

                              c) Falk & Torp: "Matte, also maatte, Sw. matta, fra MLG matte (Du.
                              mat) = OE meatte (eng. mat), OHG matta (NHG Matte). The word is from
                              Lat. matta «straw cover» (It. matta, Fr. natte)."
                              Note the m-/n- alternation; because of /a/ more likely a loan.

                              d) Falk & Torp: "Masse, Sw. massa, through NHG Masse (OHG massa) from
                              Lat. massa (Fr. masse, Eng. mass). Lat. massa «mass, lump» is loaned
                              from gr. máza [= madza or mazdza] «kneaded dough» (másso: «kneads»).

                              e) Falk & Torp: "Messing [brass] (alloy of copper and zink), Sw.
                              mässing, No. dial. messing and mas(s)ing, late ON messing, mersing,
                              massing = MLG missink (Du. messing), MHG messinc (NHG Messing), OE
                              mæs(t)ling. A shorter form is MHG messe, which also means «metal lump»
                              = mass, for which reason it has been assumed the word to be derived
                              from Lat. massa «mass, lump (eg. of metal)»: see masse. This, however,
                              is not very reasonable. Most likely the word is borrowed from Slav.
                              *mosengjU (Polsish mosia,dz) «brass», which again is reminiscent of
                              oriental names for «copper» (Osset. mosaz, New Pers. mis). [Me:
                              'massa' is NWGermanic and entered Latin through soldiers' language].
                              The Gr. name for «brass» is oreíkhalkos (literally «mountain ore»),
                              whence Lat. aurichalcum. The first mention of the metal is found in
                              (Pseudo-)Aristotle, where it is told that the mossinoiki (an Asian
                              people at the Black Sea) produced yellow copper by smelting copper
                              with a zink ore. ... Other Germanic names is late ON latu:n af OFr.
                              laton (Eng. latten), mnt. matta:n..."
                              Note the alternation l-/m-



                              Under this explanation the various *nVt- rivers meant "overgrown
                              (hardly navigable) river"



                              Torsten
                            • tgpedersen
                              ... that root. 3) so are Lat. natrix viper (German Wasserschlange ), German Natter adder , which occur in the set of Italic-Germanic root pairs with vowel
                              Message 14 of 23 , Nov 30, 2007
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                                > I want to propose something radical:
                                >
                                > 1) the original root is *n,Wet- meaning "wet tangled mass", a
                                > derivation of *akw-, *an,W- "water"
                                >
                                > 2) the substrate roots *matt- "mat" and *mass- "mass" are related to
                                that root.

                                3) so are Lat. natrix "viper" (German "Wasserschlange"), German Natter
                                "adder", which occur in the set of Italic-Germanic root pairs with
                                vowel /a/ (which can't be original in Latin) listed by Kuhn;
                                http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/30032
                                another pair there is aqua/ahwa

                                >
                                > 4) the donor language was spoken by the LBK-Rössen culture.
                                >


                                Torsten
                              • Piotr Gasiorowski
                                ... It can. *R.HC- seems to have been vocalised as RaC- in Latin (and in Celtic), and since WGmc. had long-vowelled *na:d(V)r- with *a:
                                Message 15 of 23 , Nov 30, 2007
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                                  On 2007-11-30 19:41, tgpedersen wrote:

                                  > 3) so are Lat. natrix "viper" (German "Wasserschlange"), German Natter
                                  > "adder", which occur in the set of Italic-Germanic root pairs with
                                  > vowel /a/ (which can't be original in Latin)

                                  It can. *R.HC- seems to have been vocalised as RaC- in Latin (and in
                                  Celtic), and since WGmc. had long-vowelled *na:d(V)r- with *a: < *e:,
                                  the snake word makes sense as *neh1-tor- ~ *n.h1-ter-, *n(e)h1-trih2,
                                  with *(s)neh1- 'thread, spin, sew'.

                                  Piotr
                                • alexandru_mg3
                                  ... Natter ... Romanian nãpârcã viper, kind of lizzard (Albanian id.) belongs here too, but we a different ending *snh1-e- PAlb/Dacian* *na- *n&-
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Dec 3, 2007
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                                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > On 2007-11-30 19:41, tgpedersen wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > 3) so are Lat. natrix "viper" (German "Wasserschlange"), German
                                    Natter
                                    > > "adder", which occur in the set of Italic-Germanic root pairs with
                                    > > vowel /a/ (which can't be original in Latin)
                                    >
                                    > It can. *R.HC- seems to have been vocalised as RaC- in Latin (and in
                                    > Celtic), and since WGmc. had long-vowelled *na:d(V)r- with *a: < *e:,
                                    > the snake word makes sense as *neh1-tor- ~ *n.h1-ter-, *n(e)h1-trih2,
                                    > with *(s)neh1- 'thread, spin, sew'.
                                    >
                                    > Piotr
                                    >


                                    Romanian nãpârcã 'viper, kind of lizzard' (Albanian id.) belongs here
                                    too, but we a different 'ending'

                                    *snh1-e- > PAlb/Dacian* *na- > *n&-

                                    If the word was with s-, this indicates us that the reduction sn > s in
                                    PAlb/Dacian? started before Roman Times and was still active in Roman
                                    Period

                                    I suspect that we have here a compound word ( PAlb. *na - *parka? ) but
                                    I couldn't fix yet the second part with a high probability

                                    Any help here?

                                    Thanks,
                                    Marius
                                  • Piotr Gasiorowski
                                    ... I wonder if it isn t Lat. natrice- -- something like PAlb. *nätrika *netërka nepërkë ~ nëpërkë through irregular distortion (or perhaps even
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Dec 3, 2007
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                                      On 2007-12-03 11:28, alexandru_mg3 wrote:

                                      > I suspect that we have here a compound word ( PAlb. *na - *parka? ) but
                                      > I couldn't fix yet the second part with a high probability
                                      >
                                      > Any help here?

                                      I wonder if it isn't Lat. natrice- --> something like PAlb. *nätrika >
                                      *netërka > nepërkë ~ nëpërkë through irregular distortion (or perhaps
                                      even folk-etymological contamination with <nëpër> 'through'), borrowed
                                      into Romanian in the distorted form. Just a guess, but I can't offer a
                                      better idea at the moment.

                                      Piotr
                                    • alexandru_mg3
                                      ... *parka? ) but ... *nätrika ... perhaps ... borrowed ... offer a ... As on my side, Piotr: Rom./Alb. nëpërkë is really the Balkan ancient name of
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Dec 3, 2007
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                                        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > On 2007-12-03 11:28, alexandru_mg3 wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > I suspect that we have here a compound word ( PAlb. *na -
                                        *parka? ) but
                                        > > I couldn't fix yet the second part with a high probability
                                        > >
                                        > > Any help here?
                                        >
                                        > I wonder if it isn't Lat. natrice- --> something like PAlb.
                                        *nätrika >
                                        > *netërka > nepërkë ~ nëpërkë through irregular distortion (or
                                        perhaps
                                        > even folk-etymological contamination with <nëpër> 'through'),
                                        borrowed
                                        > into Romanian in the distorted form. Just a guess, but I can't
                                        offer a
                                        > better idea at the moment.
                                        >
                                        > Piotr
                                        >


                                        As on my side, Piotr:


                                        Rom./Alb. nëpërkë is really the "Balkan ancient name" of
                                        Vipera_ammodytes


                                        url: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipera_ammodytes
                                        http://www.venomousreptiles.org/articles/268


                                        The today name of this snake in Romanian is:
                                        'vipera cu corn' -> 'horned viper' in English (and of
                                        course 'nëpërkë' either)

                                        This snake has his central habitat: the Balkans and he has a kind
                                        of 'small horn, small pole, small twig' as 'distinct sign of his nose'

                                        Following this semantism, the reconstruction of nëpërkë will be:

                                        nëpërkë < PIE *(s)nh1-e *pert-(i)k-eh2

                                        where:

                                        PIE *(s)nh1- 'snake'
                                        --------------------

                                        PIE *pert- 'pole, sharp/young twig, sprout'
                                        -------------------------------------------
                                        Armenian: ort'
                                        Old Greek: ptoìrthos
                                        Slavic: *perka:
                                        Latin: pertica

                                        So the Balkan Latin name (< today Romanian) "vipera cu corn"
                                        ->'horned viper' is ONLY a simple translation of the ancient Balkan
                                        nomination:

                                        Romanian/Albanian nëpërkë <
                                        *Dacian *neperka: < [k < tk; n < sn] <
                                        *Early-Dacian *(s)ne-*pertka: <
                                        PIE *(s)nh1-e *pert-(i)k-eh2
                                        with the original meaning 'horned viper' too...


                                        Marius


                                        P.S. If you don't trust this etymology please take a look first at
                                        the very nice picture at:
                                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vipera_ammodytes_2.jpg
                                        You can well see that the *pert- ...is there :)
                                      • alexandru_mg3
                                        Sorry please Read Old Greek: ptorthos (I didn t arrive to put the right accent on o) Marius ... nose
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Dec 3, 2007
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                                          Sorry please Read
                                          Old Greek: ptorthos (I didn't arrive to put the right accent on 'o)

                                          Marius


                                          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > On 2007-12-03 11:28, alexandru_mg3 wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > > I suspect that we have here a compound word ( PAlb. *na -
                                          > *parka? ) but
                                          > > > I couldn't fix yet the second part with a high probability
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Any help here?
                                          > >
                                          > > I wonder if it isn't Lat. natrice- --> something like PAlb.
                                          > *nätrika >
                                          > > *netërka > nepërkë ~ nëpërkë through irregular distortion (or
                                          > perhaps
                                          > > even folk-etymological contamination with <nëpër> 'through'),
                                          > borrowed
                                          > > into Romanian in the distorted form. Just a guess, but I can't
                                          > offer a
                                          > > better idea at the moment.
                                          > >
                                          > > Piotr
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > As on my side, Piotr:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Rom./Alb. nëpërkë is really the "Balkan ancient name" of
                                          > Vipera_ammodytes
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > url: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipera_ammodytes
                                          > http://www.venomousreptiles.org/articles/268
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > The today name of this snake in Romanian is:
                                          > 'vipera cu corn' -> 'horned viper' in English (and of
                                          > course 'nëpërkë' either)
                                          >
                                          > This snake has his central habitat: the Balkans and he has a kind
                                          > of 'small horn, small pole, small twig' as 'distinct sign of his
                                          nose'
                                          >
                                          > Following this semantism, the reconstruction of nëpërkë will be:
                                          >
                                          > nëpërkë < PIE *(s)nh1-e *pert-(i)k-eh2
                                          >
                                          > where:
                                          >
                                          > PIE *(s)nh1- 'snake'
                                          > --------------------
                                          >
                                          > PIE *pert- 'pole, sharp/young twig, sprout'
                                          > -------------------------------------------
                                          > Armenian: ort'
                                          > Old Greek: ptoìrthos
                                          > Slavic: *perka:
                                          > Latin: pertica
                                          >
                                          > So the Balkan Latin name (< today Romanian) "vipera cu corn"
                                          > ->'horned viper' is ONLY a simple translation of the ancient Balkan
                                          > nomination:
                                          >
                                          > Romanian/Albanian nëpërkë <
                                          > *Dacian *neperka: < [k < tk; n < sn] <
                                          > *Early-Dacian *(s)ne-*pertka: <
                                          > PIE *(s)nh1-e *pert-(i)k-eh2
                                          > with the original meaning 'horned viper' too...
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Marius
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > P.S. If you don't trust this etymology please take a look first at
                                          > the very nice picture at:
                                          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vipera_ammodytes_2.jpg
                                          > You can well see that the *pert- ...is there :)
                                          >
                                        • Piotr Gasiorowski
                                          ... I have a few objections to this: (1) Morphological: *(s)nh1- is the reduced form of a _verb root_ (meaning approximately spin, twist ). No snake,
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Dec 3, 2007
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                                            On 2007-12-03 23:05, alexandru_mg3 wrote:

                                            > Romanian/Albanian nëpërkë <
                                            > *Dacian *neperka: < [k < tk; n < sn] <
                                            > *Early-Dacian *(s)ne-*pertka: <
                                            > PIE *(s)nh1-e *pert-(i)k-eh2
                                            > with the original meaning 'horned viper' too...

                                            I have a few objections to this:

                                            (1) Morphological: *(s)nh1- is the reduced form of a _verb root_
                                            (meaning approximately 'spin, twist'). No snake, anywhere, is called
                                            *(s)neh1-; Latin, Celtic and Germanic all have a *-tor-/*tr-ih2 agent noun.

                                            (2) Phonological: Why do you posit *e as a connecting vowel in a
                                            compound? Where are such compounds attested? Why wasn't this *e
                                            diphthongised to /ja/? And why is the *n asyllabic in this position?

                                            (3) Semantic: In IE endocentric compounds the second, not the first
                                            element is the head, i.e. an adder with a horn would have been called a
                                            "horn-adder", not an "adder-horn".

                                            Piotr
                                          • stlatos
                                            ... I think the basic idea sounds fine, even if a few changes need to be made. ... agent noun. Consider the possibility of (semi)haplology: L *natrica
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Dec 3, 2007
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                                              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > On 2007-12-03 23:05, alexandru_mg3 wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > Romanian/Albanian nëpërkë <
                                              > > *Dacian *neperka: < [k < tk; n < sn] <
                                              > > *Early-Dacian *(s)ne-*pertka: <
                                              > > PIE *(s)nh1-e *pert-(i)k-eh2
                                              > > with the original meaning 'horned viper' too...
                                              >
                                              > I have a few objections to this:

                                              I think the basic idea sounds fine, even if a few changes need to be
                                              made.

                                              > (1) Morphological: *(s)nh1- is the reduced form of a _verb root_
                                              > (meaning approximately 'spin, twist'). No snake, anywhere, is called
                                              > *(s)neh1-; Latin, Celtic and Germanic all have a *-tor-/*tr-ih2
                                              agent noun.

                                              Consider the possibility of (semi)haplology:

                                              L > *natrica pertica > *nartica pertica > *napertica etc.

                                              A similar series could be used for other borrowings, or maybe even a
                                              native compound from a descriptive noun + adj. phrase.

                                              > (2) Phonological: Why do you posit *e as a connecting vowel in a
                                              > compound? Where are such compounds attested? Why wasn't this *e
                                              > diphthongised to /ja/? And why is the *n asyllabic in this position?

                                              > (3) Semantic: In IE endocentric compounds the second, not the first
                                              > element is the head, i.e. an adder with a horn would have been called a
                                              > "horn-adder", not an "adder-horn".

                                              I wouldn't put this word's origin in PIE times, but it's not
                                              impossible that it could be very old.
                                            • alexandru_mg3
                                              ... called ... agent noun. ... called a ... I. Regarding the Semantism ... I.0) I ve said that the Balkan Latin translated *Dacian The horned viper in Balkan
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Dec 4, 2007
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                                                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > On 2007-12-03 23:05, alexandru_mg3 wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > Romanian/Albanian nëpërkë <
                                                > > *Dacian *neperka: < [k < tk; n < sn] <
                                                > > *Early-Dacian *(s)ne-*pertka: <
                                                > > PIE *(s)nh1-e *pert-(i)k-eh2
                                                > > with the original meaning 'horned viper' too...
                                                >
                                                > I have a few objections to this:
                                                >
                                                > (1) Morphological: *(s)nh1- is the reduced form of a _verb root_
                                                > (meaning approximately 'spin, twist'). No snake, anywhere, is
                                                called
                                                > *(s)neh1-; Latin, Celtic and Germanic all have a *-tor-/*tr-ih2
                                                agent noun.
                                                >
                                                > (2) Phonological: Why do you posit *e as a connecting vowel in a
                                                > compound? Where are such compounds attested? Why wasn't this *e
                                                > diphthongised to /ja/? And why is the *n asyllabic in this position?
                                                >
                                                > (3) Semantic: In IE endocentric compounds the second, not the first
                                                > element is the head, i.e. an adder with a horn would have been
                                                called a
                                                > "horn-adder", not an "adder-horn".
                                                >
                                                > Piotr




                                                I. Regarding the Semantism
                                                ---------------------------

                                                I.0) I've said that the Balkan Latin translated *Dacian 'The horned
                                                viper' in Balkan Latin 'vipera cu corn'
                                                I didn't say that the original meaning of *snh1-e- *pert-ik-eh2
                                                was 'vipera cu corn' ...already in PIE-times, because in that times
                                                even the word 'snake' (as you know) was a metaphoric nomination too.

                                                I.1) In *pert-ik-eh2 < *pert-iko I think that we have the same
                                                construction that we can found in Avestan: daitika- [m] `wild,
                                                undomesticated animal'

                                                1.a) In Avestan: daitika-
                                                The basic word inside it is h3d-ont- 'tooth'.
                                                The suffix -iko here is not the diminutive one, but that one that
                                                indicates that the denominated <X-iko> means <'mainly' possesing X>
                                                The construction:
                                                *h3d-ont- 'tooth' > *h3d-ont-iko "'Mainly' possesing(/using)
                                                teeth" -> 'The Savage' -> 'wild/undomesticated animal'

                                                1.b) Similarly in *pert-ik-eh2
                                                *pert- 'kind of pole, horn, node' > *pert-iko "'Mainly' possesing
                                                (/using) a kind of horn" -> 'The Horned One'

                                                1.c) or in well-known Greek (h)ipp-ik-'os 'belonging to horses'


                                                2. > Morphological: *(s)nh1- is the reduced form of a _verb root_
                                                > (meaning approximately 'spin, twist').

                                                I agree : the meaning here was a verbal one (aprox.) 'following a
                                                winding course/ that one that follows a widing course'

                                                Note: in fact this is also one of the today meanings of the English
                                                verb 'to twist' > 'to follow a widing course' > 'to snake'
                                                (see webster: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/twist)


                                                I.3.
                                                > Semantic: In IE endocentric compounds the second, not the first
                                                > element is the head

                                                I fully agree. The Head Name in this definition is *pert-ik-eh2
                                                meaning aprox. something like Romanian(<Latin) 'Cornuta', in
                                                English 'The Horned One'


                                                Based on I.1 - I.3 the Original PIE Meaning was :

                                                --------------------------------------------------
                                                'The Horned One that follows a widing course'
                                                --------------------------------------------------


                                                If true, I would said that this is an extraordinary definition of the
                                                ancients :

                                                I can see the horn and I can follows the movements too...still seeing
                                                the horn ...



                                                II. Regarding the phonetism
                                                ---------------------------

                                                II.1 Phonological: Why do you posit *e as a connecting vowel in a
                                                compound?

                                                e is not a connecting vowel (sorry that I didn't put e-) in *snh1-e-
                                                -e- is the thematic vowel in a verbal construction
                                                *snh1-e- probably *snh1-e-(t) or *snh1-e-(nt)

                                                Honestly I'm less sure what exactly we have here; if it was:
                                                - that one that 'MAY follow a widing course' or
                                                - that one that 'follow-ED a widing course'
                                                - that one 'follow-ING a widing course' or something else..


                                                II.2. > And why is the *n asyllabic in this position?
                                                Because In compounds the laryngeal is lost


                                                II.3. > Why wasn't this *e diphthongised to /ja/?

                                                Originary, *pert-ik-'a: was an a:-stem accented on the last syllable
                                                *pert-ik-'a:

                                                (a) is not unusual, to have a:-stems accented on the last syllable
                                                (b) no direct link, but it is the same accent position as in Greek (h)
                                                ipp-ik-'os 'belonging to horses'

                                                Next both non-accented e- became /&/

                                                When the accent was retired the new accented /&/ became /I/ in
                                                Romanian /n&pIrk&/


                                                Marius
                                              • alexandru_mg3
                                                ... The last accented syllable is the single explanation for the unusual series of three /&/ in Albanian /n&p&rk&/ too Marius
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Dec 4, 2007
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                                                  > II.3. > Why wasn't this *e diphthongised to /ja/?
                                                  >
                                                  > Originary, *pert-ik-'a: was an a:-stem accented on the last syllable
                                                  > *pert-ik-'a:
                                                  >
                                                  > (a) is not unusual, to have a:-stems accented on the last syllable
                                                  > (b) no direct link, but it is the same accent position as in Greek (h)
                                                  > ipp-ik-'os 'belonging to horses'
                                                  >
                                                  > Next both non-accented e- became /&/
                                                  >
                                                  > When the accent was retired the new accented /&/ became /I/ in
                                                  > Romanian /n&pIrk&/
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Marius


                                                  The last accented syllable is the single explanation for the unusual
                                                  series of three /&/ in Albanian /n&p&rk&/ too

                                                  Marius
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