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Re: bask r and l

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  • tgpedersen
    ... Vennemann: Etymologische Beziehungen im Alten Europa, in Europa Vasconica - Europa Semitica. 7.6.24. Schenkel, ae. sceanca; Schinken Bei Kluge/Seebold
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 2, 2007
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      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > It is Vennemann's contention that Proto-Vasconic did
      > once have initial clusters and that eg. *sCV- > zV-

      > A.F
      > What examples can you give ?
      >
      Vennemann:
      Etymologische Beziehungen im Alten Europa, in
      Europa Vasconica - Europa Semitica.
      "
      7.6.24. Schenkel, ae. sceanca; Schinken
      Bei Kluge/Seebold heißt es zu Schenkel: "Mhd. schenkel, mndt.
      schinkel, mndl. sc(h)enkel; Diminutivum zu ae. sceanca, mndt. schinke
      'Schenkel' (es kann auch ein Diminutivum zu Schinken ... mitgewirkt
      haben). Hierzu vielleicht mit dissimiliertem Anlaut ai. sákthi n.
      'Schenkel'. Vermutlich zu einer Grundlage mit der Bedeutung 'schräg',
      die in anord. skakkr 'hinkend, schief erhalten wäre." Letzteres wird
      des weiteren mit hinken usw. verbunden.
      Meines Erachtens sollte bask. zango 'Fuß, Bein'127 (de Azkue)
      verglichen werden; ferner sanga, sango, sanka, sankho, s.ango, s^ango,
      s^anko 'Fuß, Bein [usw.]' (Löpelmann)128, dazu dort s^ungo
      'Hinterkeule (Hammel, Pferd)', das semantisch gut zu dt. Schinken,
      Schunke paßt. Urvaskon. +skanko 'Fuß, Bein' wäre eine gute Grundlage
      sowohl für die indogermanischen (wohl vor allem oder ausschließlich
      germanischen) Lehnwörter als auch für die baskischen Wörter, letzteres
      nach der Lautregel +sk > s / #___, allgemeiner +sP > s / #___für
      Plosive, P = p, t, k (das Baskische erlaubt ja keine
      Anlautgruppen).129 Bask. s~anku 'hinkend' (de Azkue) dürfte durch
      diminuierende Palatalisierung zu zango 'Fuß, Bein' gebildet sein.
      Offenbar ist eine alte, entsprechende Ableitung mit dem [86 Fuß-Wort
      ins Germanische entlehnt worden, wo sie in an. skakkr (+skanka-)
      'hinkend, schief erhalten ist.

      127. Die Bedeutung schwankt regional wie auch bei dt. Fuß, das im
      Süddeutschen weithin soviel wie 'Bein' bedeutet.
      128. Löpelmann leitet das Wort aus dem Romanischen her; aber die
      angeführten romanischen Wörter haben ihm zufolge selbst keine gute
      Etymologie, so daß ich sie umgekehrt als aus dem Baskischen entlehnt
      betrachte.
      129. Im Finnischen findet sich dies bei Entlehnungen der älteren Zeit,
      doch ist es nur für st- exemplifiziert; vgl. J. Koivulehto,
      Reallexikon, Band 9: s.v. Finnland, 1. Sprachliches, S. 85: "Die
      Reflexe der germ. Verbindung st im Anlaut vor Vokal: a) frühurfinn.
      s-; b) späturfinn. t-. Beispiele: a) finn. (ält., dial.) suota
      'läufige Stutenherde, Pferdeherde' < frühurfinn. *so:ta bzw. *so:ða ~
      frühgerm. *sto:ða- (vorgerm. *sta:dho-) > ahd. stuot, aschwed. sto:þ
      id. [vgl. nhd. Stute, Gestüt]; b) finn. tanko 'Stange' < späturfinn.
      *tan,ko ~ germ. *stanga: > anord. sto,ng 'Stange'." Vgl. noch ebd.
      "[finn.] saura 'Trockengestell für Heu, Laub; einzelner Pfahl daran' <
      *sapra ~ frühgerm. *staura- > anord. staurr 'Pfahl' (frühurfinn. -pr-
      statt -vr-, das nicht vorkam).


      7.6.26. stinken, got. stigqan 'stoßen'
      Dieses Verbum ist gemeingermanisch, wobei freilich die Bedeutungen
      weit auseinandergehen. Die Bedeutung im Gotischen wird als
      Ausgangsbedeutung betrachtet, andere Bedeutungen als abgeleitet (z.B.
      die Bedeutung 'riechen' wie bei etwas stößt mir auf, ein Geruch
      schlägt mir entgegen. "Weitere Herkunft unklar" (Kluge/Seebold);
      "Etymology unclear" (Lehmann 1986: s.v. stigqan).
      Es gibt im Baskischen ein Substantiv zunka 'Stoß mit dem Kopf, den die
      Kälber beim Saugen geben' (de Azkue, nur eine Ortschaft im
      Labourdinischen), sunka 'Schlag, Stoß', mit Ableitungen, z.B. sunkatu
      'stoßen' (Löpelmann). Dem baskischen Wort braucht keineswegs span.
      port. galiz. choquer zugrunde zu liegen (Löpelmann), sondern es kann
      vaskon. +stunkwa lautgesetzlich fortsetzen (+st- > s- / #___im Zuge
      der Vereinfachung aller Anlautgruppen auf einen einzigen
      Konsonanten130, und +kw > k). Aus einer solchen Wurzel könnte ein
      germanisches +stunkwan gewonnen sein, das im Zuge der Regularisierung
      des Verbsystems in die dritte Klasse geriet. Bei Lehmann wird eine
      Rekonstruktion von Brugmann zitiert, *stugqan —> stigqan, die das
      Verbum mit ai. tujáti, tuñjáti 'move quickly, thrust' verknüpfen soll.
      Genau diese Entwicklung nehme ich auch an, wobei ich die Frage der
      Zugehörigkeit des altindischen Verbs offen lassen möchte.
      "

      Etymology and phonotactics, ibd.
      "
      20.2.6. Phonotactic cluster reduction: OE sceanca 'thigh', Bq. zango,
      zanko 'leg, foot'
      In my 1995c article I compared the etymologically unexplained OE
      sceanca, MHG Schenkel (NHG Schenkel) etc. 'thigh' to the likewise
      etymologically unexplained Bq. zango (Eastern dialect zank(h)o) 'leg,
      foot' and suggested that the difference in the root, +skank- in
      Germanic with its initial cluster and zang- in Basque with its single
      initial sibilant, might he the effect of phonotactic change in
      prehistoric Basque. Historical Basque does not tolerate word-initial
      consonant clusters:
      *C2/#_____
      However, there is no reason to assume that the same is true of
      prehistoric Basque. It is known, e.g. from Middle and Modern Korean
      (Kwon 1990) and from Old and Middle Indic (Fahs 1989: 30-31), that
      languages with word-initial clusters may develop such a constraint
      within a few centuries, using several [368 different mechanisms to
      implement the new constraint. My 1995c proposal is that Basque reduced
      its initial clusters on the basis of the same Consonantal Strength
      hierarchy that it used to sequence intervocalic clusters: Of a
      word-initial consonant cluster, only the most vowel-like consonant
      survives:
      Cluster reduction rule (for consonant clusters Z)
      PVasc. Z > Cmin / #_____
      where Cmin is that consonant in Z whose Consonantal Strength is least
      A special case of this rule is the reduction of initial
      fricative-plus-plosive clusters FP- to the mere fricative F-:
      +FP >F/#___for fricatives F and plosives P
      Applying this rule to the case on hand, +sk > s / #___.
      and remembering that plosives have to be sonorous after nasals in most
      dialects (Michelena 1977: § 18.9), we see that a root +skankV- would
      indeed develop into /sank(h)V-/, i.e. zank(h)V-, and further into
      /sangV-/, i.e. zangV-, in Basque. This is the basis for my proposal
      that Bq. zango, zank(h)o 'leg, foot' continues a PVasc. +skankV- and
      that Gmc. +skankV- 'thigh' is a Vasconic loan-word.
      Another example treated in my 1995c article is the Germanic strong
      (class III) verb +stinkwan 'to push', Goth. stigqan 'to push' (with a
      change of meaning in OE stincan etc. 'to stink'). Applying the special
      case
      +st > s / #__
      of the above initial cluster reduction rule, a PVasc. +stunkwa- 'to
      push' could be the basis both for Bq. zunka 'thrust, blow' (preserved
      only in Eastern dialects where plosives do not become sonorant after
      nasals, cf. Michelena 1977: § 18.9)54 [369 and, as a Vasconic
      loan-word in Germanic, for the ablauting Gmc. +stinkWan- / +stankWa- /
      +stunkWum- / +stunkWan- 'to push'.

      20.2.7. Applications
      20.2.7.1. OHG scarpf/sarpf 'sharp', skulan/suln 'shall'
      Old High German contains two words with a peculiar variation of
      initial sk- and s- for which no generally accepted explanations exist.
      Both of them give the impression of being non-Indo-European
      loan-words, and since such words may be of Vasconic origin, an effect
      of the same constraint as in the preceding section must be considered.
      The word OE scearp (Engl. sharp), OFris. skerp, skarp, MLG MDutch
      scharp, scherp (Mod.Du. scherp), OS skarp, ON skarpr, OHG scarpf (NHG
      scharf) 'sharp' is by Kluge/Seebold (1995: s.v. scharf) connected to
      Latv. skar~bs, Mir. cerb 'cutting' (Pres. Part. belonging to cerbaim
      'I cut') and further to PIE *sker- 'to cut'. "Die Abgrenzung ist im
      einzelnen wegen weit auseinanderfallender Bedeutungen unklar (so z.B.
      die Beurteilung von ae. sceorpan 'schmerzen, schaben, schneiden')."
      The OED (s.v. sharp) offers a different picture: "The Teut. root
      *skerp-: skarp-: skurp- appears also in OHG. scurfan, MHG. schürfen to
      cut open (mod.G. to poke a fire). OE. scearpe scarification, scearpian
      to scarify. The Teut. root *skrep-: skrap- (see scrape v.) appears to
      be related; no cognates outside Teut. are known."
      This does not appear to be the end of the uncertainty noted by
      Kluge/Seebold. There is also in Germanic a verbal root +kerb- (late
      MHG kerben, MLG MDutch kerven), as a strong verb in OE ceorfan, cf.
      further ON kyrfa 'to carve', Dan. karve 'to notch, indent', Swed.
      karfwa 'to notch, carve'. Both Kluge/Seebold (1995: s.v. kerben) and
      the OED (s.v. carve v.) point to a traditional association with Gk.
      gráphein 'to write', originally 'to scratch or engrave'. Neither note
      the phonological and semantic similarity to the sharp word.55 [370
      There is yet another peculiarity connected to the sharp word which
      Kluge/Seebold do not mention but the OED does: There exists a form OHG
      MHG sarpf, sarf, early MDutch sarp 'sharp'. Kobler (1994) lists sarpf
      together with scarpf (s.v. skarpf*), and likewise for the derivatives.
      By contrast, the OED says, "The OHG. and MHG. sarpf (early mod.Du.
      sarp) sharp is prob. unconnected." This is understandable in terms of
      Indo-European and Germanic etymology where such an alternation (of sk-
      and s-) has no place. But apart from that, assuming two unrelated
      words scarpf and sarpf of exactly the same meaning in the same
      language is in my opinion an illegitimate appeal to chance as a mode
      of explanation.
      I do not have an account accommodating all of the peculiarities
      mentioned. But I think that a few things can be said about them.
      First, the phonological irregularities in the above correspondences,
      e.g, in terms of Grimm's Law, as well as the restriction to some of
      the Western Indo-European languages, point to a loan complex.
      Second, the variant sarpf of scarpf 'sharp' opens up additional
      connections: (1) With s- > h- / #___V, the same root form +sarp-
      'sharp' can be identified in Gk. hárpe:. f. '(1) sickle, (2) bird of
      prey, kite56' and its likely derivatives (cf. Frisk 1973: s.vv.
      hárpe:, harpázo): hárpasos (name of a bird of prey), hárpax f.
      'robbery', hárpax m. 'robber'57 , harpázo 'to snatch away, rob',
      hárpagos, harpáge: 'hook', etc. Frisk (1973: s.v. hárpe:) compares as
      "wahrscheinlich urverwandt" Gk. hárpe: to OCS srUpU 'sickle'58, [371
      Latv. sirpe 'sickle' and possibly Lat. sarpere 'die Weinstöcke
      beschneiteln (to lop vines)' (for which cf. Walde/Hofmann 1982: s.v.
      sarpio:/ sarpo:) and OHG sarpf.
      Third, an item that so far seems to have been overlooked in the
      discussion of the above words is Span. zarpa meaning 'claw' but
      designating at the same time a variety of vaguely related concepts. In
      Basque there is a word zarpa with several meanings overlapping those
      of Span. zarpa, one of them being '[Span.] espolón, [Fr.] éperon
      (Bot.)', i.e. 'spur (in botanical terminology)'.59 The Spanish word
      zarpa 'claw' has several peculiar aspects (Corominas/Pascual 1991:
      s.v.), most interesting among them in the present context being the
      fact that it is restricted to Castilian and adjacent Pyrenean dialects
      and is not attested (with this meaning) before a. 1611.
      Corominas/Pascual (1991: s.v.) ask the question of whether the word
      might be Basque in origin ("o deberemos mirar más bien el vocablo
      vasco como genuino?") but do not answer it in the affirmative. In my
      view it has to be so answered, because the word is not original in
      Romance (it does not even occur in Portuguese), and there is no other
      language around from which both Cast. zarpa and Bq. zarpa could be
      assumed to have been borrowed .60 I propose that zarpa is originally a
      Basque word meaning 'claw' that was borrowed into Castilian, where it
      preserved the original meaning, and then gradually receded in its
      original meaning until it survived with the meta-phorical meaning 'spur'.
      As for the other +sarp- words discussed above, I would like to propose
      that they all go back to the same Vasconic word +sarpV- that survives
      residually in Bq. zarpa 'spur', i.e., that they are prehistoric
      Vasconic loans exactly as Span. zarpa is a medieval Basque loan. As a
      likely original meaning of Vasconic +sarpV- I would like to consider
      'claw'; 'spur', 'rob', 'sharp' and 'sickle' would then represent
      metonymical and metaphorical shifts based on this original meaning.
      Alternatively, and perhaps preferably, 'sharp' or 'sharp object' could
      be basic, with 'claw', 'spur', 'rob', and 'sickle' as specific
      applications.
      Is there then a way to connect this group of +sarp- words to [372 Gmc.
      +skarp- 'sharp' and to Gmc. +kerb- 'to carve'? In principle, there
      are, of course, even two ways: inserting the +-k- and deleting the
      +-k-. If it were not for +kerb-, one way of connecting +sarp- and
      +skarp- 'sharp' would be assuming a contamination of Vasconic +sarpV-
      with IE +sker- 'to cut' yielding +skarpV- 'sharp'. However, if one
      wants to connect +kerb- 'to carve' as well, the only way seems to be
      the other way around: to assume a Vasconic form +skarpV- 'claw' (or
      'sharp (object)'). Bq. zarpa 'spur' would phonologically derive by way
      of implementing the constraint
      +sk > s / #__
      of the preceding section. Gmc. +sharp- 'sharp' would preserve the
      original shape of the root. The +sarp- forms of German and Dutch,
      Balto-Slavic, Latin, and Greek would have to be explained as
      borrowings from varieties of Vasconic that had already implemented the
      above constraint at the times of contact. The +kerb- group would have
      to be interpreted as another out come of the Vasconic process of
      cluster simplification, leaving the plosive rather than the fricative.61
      The only other case of an sk-/s- variation in Germanic is that of the
      preterite-present Goth. OHG skal/skulum, ON skal/skulom, OS
      scal/sculun, OFris. skel, skil, OE sceal/sculon 'owe(s), shall'.
      Kluge/Seebold (1995: s.v. sollen) consider the meaning 'to owe'
      original (cf. also Gm. Soll n. 'debit', schuld 'at fault, to blame',
      Schuld f. 'guilt', Schulden pl. 'debts', schulden 'to owe') and
      compare Lith ske.´leti 'to owe'. "Weitere Herkunft unklar." The OED
      (s.v. shall) says, "Outside Teut. the only certain cognates are Lith.
      skeleti to be guilty, skìlti to get into debt, skolà debt, guilt,
      OPrussian skallisnan (acc.) duty, skellânts guilty, po-skulit to
      admonish."
      This verb has a variant saln/suln. Braune/Eggers (1987: § 146 n. 4 and
      § 374) and Kluge/Seebold (1995: s.v. sollen) assume the sk- forms as
      basic and explain the loss of -k- as a [373 consequence of weak
      sentence accent; Kluge/Seebold refer to a similar development in
      English. About this parallel as well as proposed explanations, the OED
      says:
      The northern English dialects (including Sc[otch]) have a form sal,
      pa. tense suld, with initial s instead of sh. This does not occur in
      the remains of ONorthumbrian, but first appears in the 13th c. It is
      remarkable that a similar form, with s irregularly representing OTeut.
      sk, existed as a dialectal variant in OHG. (sal, sol, sulun) and
      OFris. (sal, sel), and has ousted the regular form in Ger. (soll,
      sollen) and Du. (zal, zou). Some scholars regard the s form as
      representing an OTeut. variant, originating from the euphonic dropping
      of k in inflexional forms like the subjunctive *skli:-. It seems more
      probable that it was independently developed in the different dialects
      at an early period, while, the sk- retained its original
      pronunciation; in stressless position the k might naturally be
      dropped, and the simplified initial afterwards extended by analogy to
      the stressed use.
      Prokosch (1939: 191 n. 3) believes that the -k- was first lost from
      sk- in zero grade forms where the cluster stood before the nuclear
      liquid prior to the anaptyxis of u, from where the s- onset
      subsequently generalized. Braune/Eggers (1987: § 146 n. 4) support the
      accentual weakening hypothesis by pointing to the further reduction of
      the form in Swed. Gutn. al.
      The Old High German variants scarpf/sarpf and skal/sal (etc.) develop
      differently in time (Braune/Eggers 1987: § 146 n. 4 and § 374): In the
      oldest documents sarpf dominates; scarpf only occurs occasionally,
      e.g. Hildebrandslied v. 64 (scarpen scurim: dat in dem sciltim
      stont62), becomes a little more frequent in the 10th/11th centuries,
      and begins to oust sarpf/sarf in Middle High German. By contrast, sal
      forms are rare in early Old High German but become dominant toward the
      end of the 10th century.
      Since sk- dominates in the Germanic preterite-present from the
      earliest times and can be related to sk- verbs in Baltic, the best
      assumption seems to be that it represents the original onset.
      The limited distribution, however, is another problem: The root only
      occurs in Germanic and Baltic.63 This makes it likely [374 that we are
      dealing with a prehistoric loan-word, borrowed at a time when the
      verbal and deverbal formation processes (including the ablaut system)
      were still strong enough to integrate such a borrowed item.
      Judging by its meaning, the item may have been borrowed with a social
      significance. This is perhaps underlined by a word that is not
      generally associated with the preterito-present64 but may nevertheless
      belong here, and whose social significance is obvious: Gmc. +skalkaz
      m. 'servant' as in Goth. skulks, ON skalkr (NIcel. skálkur 'rogue'),
      OHG scalc (NHG Schalk 'wag, rascal'), OS scalk, OFris. skalk, OE
      scealc (Engl. shalk poet. obs.65). "Herkunft unklar" (Kluge/Seebold
      1995: s.v.). "No cognates outside Teut. have been found" (OED: s.v.
      shalk). Considering the fact that debts used to be (and still are in
      many parts of the world) a regular cause of servitude, Gmc. +skalkaz
      m. 'servant' could be derived from the preterite-present.66 A way to
      combine the two items is the assumption of a radical laryngeal in the
      borrowed word, as proposed by Beekes (1988: 99)67, e.g. +skalH-/
      skulH-. This would agree well with Germanic root structure and would
      explain the ablaut vowel of the plural forms (e.g. OE sculon not
      sce:alon). It would also explain the doublet with root-final k,
      +skalk-a-z, because it often happens that a segment threatened by
      weakening and loss is saved by strengthening. This apparently happened
      again when the word [375 was borrowed from Germanic or Baltic into
      Finno-Ugric as +kelki-, +kelke- 'to have to, to be to', as in Lapp.
      gâl'gâ 'to be to, to have to', Hung. kell- 'to have to, to be to, to
      need; to please' (cf. Koivulehto 1991: 69 n. 37). The replacement of a
      laryngeal (in a wide sense, including not only glottal slops and
      fricatives but also e.g. velar fricatives) with k, especially in
      contact with l, does not only occur by way of sound substitution in
      loan-words but also as a language-internal development. This
      phenomenon has been described by Lutz (1991: 43-45), cf. the following
      examples:
      OE ho:h > StEngl. hough /hAk/ 'hollow of the knee'
      OE he:ahfore > dial. heckfer alongside StEngl. heifer
      Late OE dweorg, dweorh > ME dwergh/dwerf/dwerk, Engl. dial. dwerk
      alongside StEngl. dwarf Engl. dial. selk alongside StEngl. seal
      (zool.) OE eolh > ME elgh/elk, Engl. elk
      As for the source of the putative loan-word or loan-complex, one place
      to look would be Basque again, remembering that initial +sk- there
      would be reduced to z- /s-/ and that intervocalic -l- would appear as
      -r-, after apocope as -r~, which in turn may be generalized (cf.
      Michelena 1977: chs. 16, 17). It so happens that the Common Basque
      word zor (zorr-) means '[Span.| deuda, [Fr.] debte', i.e. 'debt'. It
      could continue an ancient +skolV or +skulV, perhaps from an earlier
      +skolHV or +skulHV (with a laryngeal H, see above).68 Caesar (Bell.
      Gall. III. 22) describes a kind of Aquitanian brotherhood of 600 men,
      locally called Soldurians (Soldurii), who "owe" their lives to
      friends, in the sense that they share their friends' joys of life but
      in return have to follow them into a violent death, either by
      perishing with them or by committing suicide - a debt which [376
      no-one in living memory had ever refused to pay.69 Since the name is
      used by the local people (illi), the inhabitants of the city of the
      Sotiates, in Aquitaine, Caesar's Aquitania, the name is likely to be
      Aquitanian, and thus Vasconic.70 Perhaps then the first part of the
      name Soldurii is the same as Basque zor 'debt'.71



      54. Owing to another segmental constraint, Basque does not allow
      labialized velars.
      55. There are more etymological riddles connected to this group
      which I cannot all follow up in this paper. E.g., Gmc. +grab-a- (str.
      verb, class VI) 'to dig' (Goth. OHG graban, ON grafa, OS grava, OFris.
      gre:fa, griova, OE grafan) can, according to Kluge/Seebold (1995: s.v.
      graben), only be directly compared to Latv. grebt 'to scrape out, to
      hollow out' and to OCS greti 'to row, to dig' and further be
      associated with PIE *ghrebh- 'to grasp, to grip, to seize'. It seems
      to me that the concept of digging is semantically
      closer to the idea of using a sharp instrument than to that of
      gripping. The OED (s.v. grave v.) says, "Cognates are found in OS1.
      greba I dig (also, I row), grobu ditch, Lettish grebju I scrape.
      Connexion with Gr. gráphein, to write, is no longer accepted by
      philologists." This connection must indeed be rejected if the compared
      items are understood as native Indo-European; in a loan-complex
      involving several borrowing languages such want of precision,
      especially on the phonological side, is exactly what must be expected.
      56. According to Frisk (1973: s.v. hárpe:), the 'bird of prey'
      word is derived metonymically from the 'sickle' word, after the
      sickle-shaped claws. I have no objection against the assumption that
      the 'bird of prey' word was derived metonymically from an old 'claw'
      word. However, since claws are older than sickles, perhaps the 'claw'
      meaning is basic to the group, the 'sickle' meaning being
      metaphorically derived from the 'claw' meaning, The original meaning
      may be 'sharp (object)', see below.
      57. "Eigentlich 'mit Krallen versehen' (?)" (Frisk 1973: s.v.
      hárpe:). I think this is a simple metaphor, cf. Gm. coll. (sich dat.)
      krallen w. acc. 'to take/snatch away, take possession of (unlawfully)'.
      58. Russ. serpU 'sickle' (Walde/Hofmann 1982: s.v. sarpio:/sarpo:).
      59. This meaning occurs only in one community of the High
      Navarrese dialect. One interpretation of such restricted application
      makes it appear likely that this meaning is residual and thus possibly
      very old.
      60. In particular the Castilian word is unlikely to continue
      Lat. sarp-, because the regular reflex of Lat. s- in Castilian is s-
      not z-.
      61. Such different outcomes of constraint implementation are
      known from Finnish loan-word adaptation of st- first as s-, later as
      t- (cf. Vennemann
      1995c: n. 129, with reference to Koivulehto 1994: 85). An example of
      st-—> s- is Gmc. +sto:da- (OHG stuot, NHG Stute, Gestüt, OSwed. sto:þ)
      'mare' —> Finn, (old, dial.) suota 'herd of mares in heat, herd of
      horses'; an example of st—> t- is Gmc. +stango: (Gm. Stange, ON
      sto,ng) —> Finn. tanko 'pole, stick, staff, rod'.
      62. With Low Saxonizing -p- for -ph-. The alliteration warrants
      the sk- onset.
      63. Prokosch (1939: 192) connects Lat. scelus, -eris n. 'guilt,
      crime' but Walde/Hofmann (1982: s.v.), glossing the word 'Bosheit,
      Verruchtheit, Verbrechen' ('wickedness, infamy, crime'), consider this
      connection uncertain, while Ernout/Meillet (1959), glossing the word
      'mauvaise action, faute, crime', declare the connection to be "pas
      davantage".
      64. The proposal was made by von Grienberger (1900: 187).
      Lehmann (l986: s.v. skalks) refers to it but rejects it, without
      giving reasons.
      65. "The word forms the second element in *marho-skalko-z
      'horse-servant', marshal n." (OED: s.v. shalk).
      66. Without wanting to press the issue, perhaps the word
      shilling finds an ex-planation along these lines, too: Goth.
      skilliggs, ON skillingr (Icel. also skildingr), OHG scilling,
      skillink, OS. scilling (MLG also schildink), OFris. skilling,
      skilleng, schilling. The original meaning could be that of a unit of
      compensation or taxation, and thus of what one owes. If correct, this
      would show the e grade of the verbal root in Germanic.
      67. Beekes assumes the root to be Indo-European, despite its
      restricted occurrence.
      68. Even though zor 'debt' is monosyllabic in all contemporary
      varieties of Basque, there is an older form zoor on record whose
      spelling is in certain other w ords a sign of hiatus, i.e. of
      disyllabicity (Michelena 1977: § 5.3). This may show that the equation
      with the Germanic and Baltic words is wrong. However, it may also be a
      trace of the way the word was simplified, e.g. +skolHV > +skoHlV
      (metathesis) > +skoHolV (anaptyxis) > +zoHolV (onset cluster
      reduction) > +zoHorV > +zoHor > zoor > zor. If a change, type employed
      by Löpelmann (1968: s.v. sorr) who identifies Bq. zor with Span.
      socorro 'help, assistance, support, advance payment', is attested,
      then one could see the hiatus as a consequence of the way onset
      clusters of a sibilant and a plosive were simplified: +skolHV >
      +sokolHV (by echo anaptyxis) > +sokolV > +sokorV > +sokor > +sohor >
      zoor > zor. In any event, Löpelmann's own etymology appears weak to me
      for semantic reasons.
      69. "... cum DC devotis, quos illi soldurios appellant - quorum
      haec est condicio, uti omnibus in vita commodis una cum iis fruantur,
      quorum se amicitiae dediderint, si quid his per vim accidat, aut
      eundem casum una ferant aut sibi mortem consciscant; neque adhuc
      hominum memoria reper-tus est quisquam, qui eo interfecto, cuius se
      amicitiae devovisset, mortem recusaret - ..." (Caesar [1990]: III.
      22). Walde/Hofmann (1982: s.v. soldu:rii) gloss the name 'die jdm.
      durch ein Gelübde verpflichteten, die Getreuen', i.e. 'those obligated
      (indebted) to someone by a vow, the faithful ones' and report on
      several doubtful etymological attempts. Ernout/Meillet (1959: s.v.
      soldurii:) say 'gardes du corps ou vassaux d'un chef gaulois. Nom
      donné expressement comme gaulois par Cesar, BG 3, 22, 1), without
      giving etymologies.
      70. Aquitanian is considered an early regional variety of Basque
      by Michelena (1954), Gorrochategui (1984, 1987), and Trask (1997:
      398-403).
      71. From a Basque point of view, the second part of the stem
      could be a compositional head meaning 'having', cf. e.g. Bq. hobendun,
      hobenduri 'guilty' (hoben 'fault, blame'), cf. Löpelmann 1968: s.v.
      -duri/-duru. Perhaps a similar formation existed in Aquitanian, so
      that the literal meaning of Soldurii could have been 'those having (a)
      debt (to pay)'.
      "


      That was kinda long. Hope it answers your questions.



      > =======
      > > A conspicuous feature of Bask, also visible in Etruscan,
      > > is that PIE *l and *r are reflected as [s] written -z- in Bask.
      > > Example :
      > > Lip < *lap? = Bask ezp-ain < *zap-in
      > > hence zango is in fact the same as leg and Greek laks.
      >
      > Where did that come from?
      > =============
      > A.F
      > I suppose the lateral [l] and vibrant [r]
      > gradually became lateral fricative[lsh],
      > the lateral component was lost,
      > the fricative feature became prevalent
      > and finally merged with s.
      > This process made room for *(n)d > Bask l
      > and *(n)t? > r
      > The basic comparative rule is simple :
      > Bask l or r can never correspond to l or r in PIE.
      > Any similarity points immediately toward borrowing.

      I see, you made it up yourself. Other examples?


      Torsten
    • Brian M. Scott
      At 11:58:16 AM on Sunday, September 2, 2007, tgpedersen wrote: [...] ... Note, however, that Larry Trask would have disagreed; see
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 2, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        At 11:58:16 AM on Sunday, September 2, 2007, tgpedersen
        wrote:

        [...]

        > Vennemann:
        > Etymologische Beziehungen im Alten Europa, in
        > Europa Vasconica - Europa Semitica.

        > Etymology and phonotactics, ibd.
        > "

        > 20.2.6. Phonotactic cluster reduction: OE sceanca 'thigh',
        > Bq. zango, zanko 'leg, foot'

        > In my 1995c article I compared the etymologically
        > unexplained OE sceanca, MHG Schenkel (NHG Schenkel) etc.
        > 'thigh' to the likewise etymologically unexplained Bq.
        > zango (Eastern dialect zank(h)o) 'leg, foot'

        Note, however, that Larry Trask would have disagreed; see
        <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0003&L=indo-european&D=1&P=9089>.

        Brian
      • Rick McCallister
        Trask knew Romance langauges well, so I d take his word on this one, I think he memorized Corominas et al. He was correct that the overwhelming amount of
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 2, 2007
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          Trask knew Romance langauges well, so I'd take his
          word on this one, I think he memorized Corominas et
          al. He was correct that the overwhelming amount of
          borrowing was from Romance into Basque rather than
          vice-versa. I believe he was wrong in reducing the
          flow of Basque into Spanish to only 5 or 10 words and
          I'm sure he was wrong for dismissing pre-Romance IE
          loans, although he accepted (as possible) about 5 or
          10 Celtic loanwords.
          Keep in mind that Old Spanish zanca and zanco was
          /dzanka, dzanko/ or /canka, canko/ depending on the
          origin of the word. Zanca is archaic and regional
          "bird leg, scrawny leg"
          If somone has an etymological or dialect dictionary or
          Italian, they could check for similar words. I have
          seen references to zanco, zanca and I think c. 1200.
          If there was such a word as Iranian zang- around at
          that time, zanco could have been a blended word or
          folk-etymology derived from zampa & zang-.
          Zampa --related to stamp, stomp?


          --- "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@...> wrote:

          > At 11:58:16 AM on Sunday, September 2, 2007,
          > tgpedersen
          > wrote:
          >
          > [...]
          >
          > > Vennemann:
          > > Etymologische Beziehungen im Alten Europa, in
          > > Europa Vasconica - Europa Semitica.
          >
          > > Etymology and phonotactics, ibd.
          > > "
          >
          > > 20.2.6. Phonotactic cluster reduction: OE sceanca
          > 'thigh',
          > > Bq. zango, zanko 'leg, foot'
          >
          > > In my 1995c article I compared the etymologically
          > > unexplained OE sceanca, MHG Schenkel (NHG
          > Schenkel) etc.
          > > 'thigh' to the likewise etymologically unexplained
          > Bq.
          > > zango (Eastern dialect zank(h)o) 'leg, foot'
          >
          > Note, however, that Larry Trask would have
          > disagreed; see
          >
          <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0003&L=indo-european&D=1&P=9089>.
          >
          > Brian
          >
          >
          >




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        • fournet.arnaud
          It would be interesting to have Trask s opinion about the word zigor rod, piece of wood It looks like there are two words : - one for leg, foot - one for
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 3, 2007
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            It would be interesting to have Trask's opinion
            about the word zigor "rod, piece of wood"
             
            It looks like there are two words :
            - one for "leg, foot"
            - one for "long piece of wood"
             
            MAybe both are in fact loanwords into Bask.
             
             
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 5:21 AM
            Subject: Re: [tied] Re: bask r and l

            At 11:58:16 AM on Sunday, September 2, 2007, tgpedersen
            wrote:

            [...]

            > Vennemann:
            > Etymologische Beziehungen im Alten Europa, in
            > Europa Vasconica - Europa Semitica.

            > Etymology and phonotactics, ibd.
            > "

            > 20.2.6. Phonotactic cluster reduction: OE sceanca 'thigh',
            > Bq. zango, zanko 'leg, foot'

            > In my 1995c article I compared the etymologically
            > unexplained OE sceanca, MHG Schenkel (NHG Schenkel) etc.
            > 'thigh' to the likewise etymologically unexplained Bq.
            > zango (Eastern dialect zank(h)o) 'leg, foot'

            Note, however, that Larry Trask would have disagreed; see
            <http://listserv. linguistlist. org/cgi-bin/ wa?A2=ind0003& L=indo-european& D=1&P=9089>.

            Brian

          • Rick McCallister
            It would be a but difficult to get ahold of him now zigor doesn t look at all Romance, Basque seems to have a fair share of compound words Trask dismissed
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 3, 2007
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              It would be a but difficult to get ahold of him now
              zigor doesn't look at all Romance, Basque seems to
              have a fair share of compound words
              Trask dismissed pre-Latin IE loans into Basque but
              there seem to be a fair share
              e.g. abarka "bast sandal", which seems to be related
              to the source of English bark
              urki, which seems to be related to the source of
              English birch
              anka, hanka, which seems to be related to English
              haunch
              I'm guessing these words came from a pre-Celtic IE
              language --what Corominas called "Sorotaptic", what
              others called "Ligurian" or "Illyrian" and what I
              suppose was either ancestral or cognate to Lusitanian
              as it made its way through France and over the
              Pyrenees into Iberia c. 1000 BC or so. I suppose
              Lusitanian was probably cognate to IE Ligurian and
              possibly explains some of the lexicon shared between
              Iberia and Sardinia, since the Ligurians were likely
              in Corsica and Sardinia
              Theo Vennemann may correct that these are due to a
              Vasconic substrate but that's a tough one to prove
              BTW: in English the word is Basque, it comes from
              French


              --- "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@...>
              wrote:

              > It would be interesting to have Trask's opinion
              > about the word zigor "rod, piece of wood"
              >
              > It looks like there are two words :
              > - one for "leg, foot"
              > - one for "long piece of wood"
              >
              > MAybe both are in fact loanwords into Bask.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Brian M. Scott
              > To: tgpedersen
              > Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 5:21 AM
              > Subject: Re: [tied] Re: bask r and l
              >
              >
              > At 11:58:16 AM on Sunday, September 2, 2007,
              > tgpedersen
              > wrote:
              >
              > [...]
              >
              > > Vennemann:
              > > Etymologische Beziehungen im Alten Europa, in
              > > Europa Vasconica - Europa Semitica.
              >
              > > Etymology and phonotactics, ibd.
              > > "
              >
              > > 20.2.6. Phonotactic cluster reduction: OE
              > sceanca 'thigh',
              > > Bq. zango, zanko 'leg, foot'
              >
              > > In my 1995c article I compared the
              > etymologically
              > > unexplained OE sceanca, MHG Schenkel (NHG
              > Schenkel) etc.
              > > 'thigh' to the likewise etymologically
              > unexplained Bq.
              > > zango (Eastern dialect zank(h)o) 'leg, foot'
              >
              > Note, however, that Larry Trask would have
              > disagreed; see
              >
              >
              <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0003&L=indo-european&D=1&P=9089>.
              >
              > Brian
              >
              >
              >
              >




              ____________________________________________________________________________________
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              that gives answers, not web links.
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            • Rick McCallister
              I m wondering about any possible relationship between haunch
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 3, 2007
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                I'm wondering about any possible relationship between
                haunch < *hanka
                ham
                gam < gammon < *gambon (vel sim) < gamba < ? Greek
                *kamba (vel sim)

                Yes, I know, I'm out on a limb on this BUT could the
                root be something like *kam, *kam-k-V with k > h in
                Gmc, with k > p in Gk ???



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              • fournet.arnaud
                All this amount of data is fairly complicated. If we concentrate on two main hypotheses : H1 : Proto-Germanic has borrowed a certain number of words from
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 4, 2007
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                  All this amount of data is fairly complicated.
                   
                  If we concentrate on two main hypotheses :
                  H1 : Proto-Germanic has borrowed a certain number of words
                  from proto-Bask, or some non PIE western European languages,
                  H2 : Proto-Bask had clusters *sk- or *st- that simplified into <s> or <z>.
                  then
                  what I think is this :
                  H1 :
                  I think that most people (99,9%) will agree on the statement that :
                  "Proto-Bask or any proto-Bask cognate language is likely to have been
                  separated from proto-Germanic by either or both Celtic and Italic".
                  Hence proto-Germanic is not the most likely IE language where
                  proto-Bask words are to be found.
                  Basically, Vennemann's idea "swims against the tide" ;
                  Celtic and Italic are the right subgroups where to find loanwords from proto-Bask.
                  Proto-Germanic cannot be.
                  H2 :
                  I personally think highly unlikely that proto-BAsk and maybe
                  most BAsk-cognate languages ever had initial clusters.
                  Apart from *lap?-in > e-zp-ain "lip",
                  another instance is "right side" :
                  *dek-ster = BAsk e-sk-uin where *dek > *e-dk- > esk.
                  Initial clusters born thru metathesis uniformly trigger *e-.
                  Inherited #sk-an should become *esk- not **s-.
                  This conclusion ruins Venneman's proposed examples.
                   
                  Next :
                  Some "membra disjecta" in PIE can be reassembled :
                  - *konH-mo : ham
                  - *s-keng- : shin-, shank, heel, etc
                  It feels strange that nobody has made connections
                  between these words.
                  Connections seem to me as fairly obvious.
                  Shin and shank do not require non PIE explanations.
                  Within PIE, they nicely connect with other PIE words.
                   
                  Next :
                  My point of view is that
                  Italian zanca or cianca and Italian zampa could not be dealt with separately.
                  All mean "leg" or "paw" : explaining zanca but not zampa amounts to nothing.
                  The same is true with Spanish zancudo "mosquito" and Italian zanzara.
                  One cannot trim data and select one third of semantically related words.
                  If zampa is not explained, explanations for zanca mean nothing.
                  This is another hard blow on Venneman's data.
                   
                  I am afraid that most if not all what I can read
                  in the following lines amounts to nothing.
                  Everything sounds rickety, incomplete, controversial.
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 5:58 PM
                  Subject: [tied] Re: bask r and l

                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroup s.com, "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@ ...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > It is Vennemann's contention that Proto-Vasconic did
                  > once have initial clusters and that eg. *sCV- > zV-

                  > A.F
                  > What examples can you give ?
                  >
                  Vennemann:
                  Etymologische Beziehungen im Alten Europa, in
                  Europa Vasconica - Europa Semitica.
                  "
                  7.6.24. Schenkel, ae. sceanca; Schinken
                  Bei Kluge/Seebold heißt es zu Schenkel: "Mhd. schenkel, mndt.
                  schinkel, mndl. sc(h)enkel; Diminutivum zu ae. sceanca, mndt. schinke
                  'Schenkel' (es kann auch ein Diminutivum zu Schinken ... mitgewirkt
                  haben). Hierzu vielleicht mit dissimiliertem Anlaut ai. sákthi n.
                  'Schenkel'. Vermutlich zu einer Grundlage mit der Bedeutung 'schräg',
                  die in anord. skakkr 'hinkend, schief erhalten wäre." Letzteres wird
                  des weiteren mit hinken usw. verbunden.
                  Meines Erachtens sollte bask. zango 'Fuß, Bein'127 (de Azkue)
                  verglichen werden; ferner sanga, sango, sanka, sankho, s.ango, s^ango,
                  s^anko 'Fuß, Bein [usw.]' (Löpelmann)128, dazu dort s^ungo
                  'Hinterkeule (Hammel, Pferd)', das semantisch gut zu dt. Schinken,
                  Schunke paßt. Urvaskon. +skanko 'Fuß, Bein' wäre eine gute Grundlage
                  sowohl für die indogermanischen (wohl vor allem oder ausschließlich
                  germanischen) Lehnwörter als auch für die baskischen Wörter, letzteres
                  nach der Lautregel +sk > s / #___, allgemeiner +sP > s / #___für
                  Plosive, P = p, t, k (das Baskische erlaubt ja keine
                  Anlautgruppen) .129 Bask. s~anku 'hinkend' (de Azkue) dürfte durch
                  diminuierende Palatalisierung zu zango 'Fuß, Bein' gebildet sein.
                  Offenbar ist eine alte, entsprechende Ableitung mit dem [86 Fuß-Wort
                  ins Germanische entlehnt worden, wo sie in an. skakkr (+skanka-)
                  'hinkend, schief erhalten ist.

                  127. Die Bedeutung schwankt regional wie auch bei dt. Fuß, das im
                  Süddeutschen weithin soviel wie 'Bein' bedeutet.
                  128. Löpelmann leitet das Wort aus dem Romanischen her; aber die
                  angeführten romanischen Wörter haben ihm zufolge selbst keine gute
                  Etymologie, so daß ich sie umgekehrt als aus dem Baskischen entlehnt
                  betrachte.
                  129. Im Finnischen findet sich dies bei Entlehnungen der älteren Zeit,
                  doch ist es nur für st- exemplifiziert; vgl. J. Koivulehto,
                  Reallexikon, Band 9: s.v. Finnland, 1. Sprachliches, S. 85: "Die
                  Reflexe der germ. Verbindung st im Anlaut vor Vokal: a) frühurfinn.
                  s-; b) späturfinn. t-. Beispiele: a) finn. (ält., dial.) suota
                  'läufige Stutenherde, Pferdeherde' < frühurfinn. *so:ta bzw. *so:ða ~
                  frühgerm. *sto:ða- (vorgerm. *sta:dho-) > ahd. stuot, aschwed. sto:þ
                  id. [vgl. nhd. Stute, Gestüt]; b) finn. tanko 'Stange' < späturfinn.
                  *tan,ko ~ germ. *stanga: > anord. sto,ng 'Stange'." Vgl. noch ebd.
                  "[finn.] saura 'Trockengestell für Heu, Laub; einzelner Pfahl daran' <
                  *sapra ~ frühgerm. *staura- > anord. staurr 'Pfahl' (frühurfinn. -pr-
                  statt -vr-, das nicht vorkam).

                  7.6.26. stinken, got. stigqan 'stoßen'
                  Dieses Verbum ist gemeingermanisch, wobei freilich die Bedeutungen
                  weit auseinandergehen. Die Bedeutung im Gotischen wird als
                  Ausgangsbedeutung betrachtet, andere Bedeutungen als abgeleitet (z.B.
                  die Bedeutung 'riechen' wie bei etwas stößt mir auf, ein Geruch
                  schlägt mir entgegen. "Weitere Herkunft unklar" (Kluge/Seebold) ;
                  "Etymology unclear" (Lehmann 1986: s.v. stigqan).
                  Es gibt im Baskischen ein Substantiv zunka 'Stoß mit dem Kopf, den die
                  Kälber beim Saugen geben' (de Azkue, nur eine Ortschaft im
                  Labourdinischen) , sunka 'Schlag, Stoß', mit Ableitungen, z.B. sunkatu
                  'stoßen' (Löpelmann). Dem baskischen Wort braucht keineswegs span.
                  port. galiz. choquer zugrunde zu liegen (Löpelmann), sondern es kann
                  vaskon. +stunkwa lautgesetzlich fortsetzen (+st- > s- / #___im Zuge
                  der Vereinfachung aller Anlautgruppen auf einen einzigen
                  Konsonanten130, und +kw > k). Aus einer solchen Wurzel könnte ein
                  germanisches +stunkwan gewonnen sein, das im Zuge der Regularisierung
                  des Verbsystems in die dritte Klasse geriet. Bei Lehmann wird eine
                  Rekonstruktion von Brugmann zitiert, *stugqan —> stigqan, die das
                  Verbum mit ai. tujáti, tuñjáti 'move quickly, thrust' verknüpfen soll.
                  Genau diese Entwicklung nehme ich auch an, wobei ich die Frage der
                  Zugehörigkeit des altindischen Verbs offen lassen möchte.
                  "

                  Etymology and phonotactics, ibd.
                  "
                  20.2.6. Phonotactic cluster reduction: OE sceanca 'thigh', Bq. zango,
                  zanko 'leg, foot'
                  In my 1995c article I compared the etymologically unexplained OE
                  sceanca, MHG Schenkel (NHG Schenkel) etc. 'thigh' to the likewise
                  etymologically unexplained Bq. zango (Eastern dialect zank(h)o) 'leg,
                  foot' and suggested that the difference in the root, +skank- in
                  Germanic with its initial cluster and zang- in Basque with its single
                  initial sibilant, might he the effect of phonotactic change in
                  prehistoric Basque. Historical Basque does not tolerate word-initial
                  consonant clusters:
                  *C2/#_____
                  However, there is no reason to assume that the same is true of
                  prehistoric Basque. It is known, e.g. from Middle and Modern Korean
                  (Kwon 1990) and from Old and Middle Indic (Fahs 1989: 30-31), that
                  languages with word-initial clusters may develop such a constraint
                  within a few centuries, using several [368 different mechanisms to
                  implement the new constraint. My 1995c proposal is that Basque reduced
                  its initial clusters on the basis of the same Consonantal Strength
                  hierarchy that it used to sequence intervocalic clusters: Of a
                  word-initial consonant cluster, only the most vowel-like consonant
                  survives:
                  Cluster reduction rule (for consonant clusters Z)
                  PVasc. Z > Cmin / #_____
                  where Cmin is that consonant in Z whose Consonantal Strength is least
                  A special case of this rule is the reduction of initial
                  fricative-plus- plosive clusters FP- to the mere fricative F-:
                  +FP >F/#___for fricatives F and plosives P
                  Applying this rule to the case on hand, +sk > s / #___.
                  and remembering that plosives have to be sonorous after nasals in most
                  dialects (Michelena 1977: § 18.9), we see that a root +skankV- would
                  indeed develop into /sank(h)V-/, i.e. zank(h)V-, and further into
                  /sangV-/, i.e. zangV-, in Basque. This is the basis for my proposal
                  that Bq. zango, zank(h)o 'leg, foot' continues a PVasc. +skankV- and
                  that Gmc. +skankV- 'thigh' is a Vasconic loan-word.
                  Another example treated in my 1995c article is the Germanic strong
                  (class III) verb +stinkwan 'to push', Goth. stigqan 'to push' (with a
                  change of meaning in OE stincan etc. 'to stink'). Applying the special
                  case
                  +st > s / #__
                  of the above initial cluster reduction rule, a PVasc. +stunkwa- 'to
                  push' could be the basis both for Bq. zunka 'thrust, blow' (preserved
                  only in Eastern dialects where plosives do not become sonorant after
                  nasals, cf. Michelena 1977: § 18.9)54 [369 and, as a Vasconic
                  loan-word in Germanic, for the ablauting Gmc. +stinkWan- / +stankWa- /
                  +stunkWum- / +stunkWan- 'to push'.

                  20.2.7. Applications
                  20.2.7.1. OHG scarpf/sarpf 'sharp', skulan/suln 'shall'
                  Old High German contains two words with a peculiar variation of
                  initial sk- and s- for which no generally accepted explanations exist.
                  Both of them give the impression of being non-Indo-European
                  loan-words, and since such words may be of Vasconic origin, an effect
                  of the same constraint as in the preceding section must be considered.
                  The word OE scearp (Engl. sharp), OFris. skerp, skarp, MLG MDutch
                  scharp, scherp (Mod.Du. scherp), OS skarp, ON skarpr, OHG scarpf (NHG
                  scharf) 'sharp' is by Kluge/Seebold (1995: s.v. scharf) connected to
                  Latv. skar~bs, Mir. cerb 'cutting' (Pres. Part. belonging to cerbaim
                  'I cut') and further to PIE *sker- 'to cut'. "Die Abgrenzung ist im
                  einzelnen wegen weit auseinanderfallende r Bedeutungen unklar (so z.B.
                  die Beurteilung von ae. sceorpan 'schmerzen, schaben, schneiden'). "
                  The OED (s.v. sharp) offers a different picture: "The Teut. root
                  *skerp-: skarp-: skurp- appears also in OHG. scurfan, MHG. schürfen to
                  cut open (mod.G. to poke a fire). OE. scearpe scarification, scearpian
                  to scarify. The Teut. root *skrep-: skrap- (see scrape v.) appears to
                  be related; no cognates outside Teut. are known."
                  This does not appear to be the end of the uncertainty noted by
                  Kluge/Seebold. There is also in Germanic a verbal root +kerb- (late
                  MHG kerben, MLG MDutch kerven), as a strong verb in OE ceorfan, cf.
                  further ON kyrfa 'to carve', Dan. karve 'to notch, indent', Swed.
                  karfwa 'to notch, carve'. Both Kluge/Seebold (1995: s.v. kerben) and
                  the OED (s.v. carve v.) point to a traditional association with Gk.
                  gráphein 'to write', originally 'to scratch or engrave'. Neither note
                  the phonological and semantic similarity to the sharp word.55 [370
                  There is yet another peculiarity connected to the sharp word which
                  Kluge/Seebold do not mention but the OED does: There exists a form OHG
                  MHG sarpf, sarf, early MDutch sarp 'sharp'. Kobler (1994) lists sarpf
                  together with scarpf (s.v. skarpf*), and likewise for the derivatives.
                  By contrast, the OED says, "The OHG. and MHG. sarpf (early mod.Du.
                  sarp) sharp is prob. unconnected. " This is understandable in terms of
                  Indo-European and Germanic etymology where such an alternation (of sk-
                  and s-) has no place. But apart from that, assuming two unrelated
                  words scarpf and sarpf of exactly the same meaning in the same
                  language is in my opinion an illegitimate appeal to chance as a mode
                  of explanation.
                  I do not have an account accommodating all of the peculiarities
                  mentioned. But I think that a few things can be said about them.
                  First, the phonological irregularities in the above correspondences,
                  e.g, in terms of Grimm's Law, as well as the restriction to some of
                  the Western Indo-European languages, point to a loan complex.
                  Second, the variant sarpf of scarpf 'sharp' opens up additional
                  connections: (1) With s- > h- / #___V, the same root form +sarp-
                  'sharp' can be identified in Gk. hárpe:. f. '(1) sickle, (2) bird of
                  prey, kite56' and its likely derivatives (cf. Frisk 1973: s.vv.
                  hárpe:, harpázo): hárpasos (name of a bird of prey), hárpax f.
                  'robbery', hárpax m. 'robber'57 , harpázo 'to snatch away, rob',
                  hárpagos, harpáge: 'hook', etc. Frisk (1973: s.v. hárpe:) compares as
                  "wahrscheinlich urverwandt" Gk. hárpe: to OCS srUpU 'sickle'58, [371
                  Latv. sirpe 'sickle' and possibly Lat. sarpere 'die Weinstöcke
                  beschneiteln (to lop vines)' (for which cf. Walde/Hofmann 1982: s.v.
                  sarpio:/ sarpo:) and OHG sarpf.
                  Third, an item that so far seems to have been overlooked in the
                  discussion of the above words is Span. zarpa meaning 'claw' but
                  designating at the same time a variety of vaguely related concepts. In
                  Basque there is a word zarpa with several meanings overlapping those
                  of Span. zarpa, one of them being '[Span.] espolón, [Fr.] éperon
                  (Bot.)', i.e. 'spur (in botanical terminology) '.59 The Spanish word
                  zarpa 'claw' has several peculiar aspects (Corominas/Pascual 1991:
                  s.v.), most interesting among them in the present context being the
                  fact that it is restricted to Castilian and adjacent Pyrenean dialects
                  and is not attested (with this meaning) before a. 1611.
                  Corominas/Pascual (1991: s.v.) ask the question of whether the word
                  might be Basque in origin ("o deberemos mirar más bien el vocablo
                  vasco como genuino?") but do not answer it in the affirmative. In my
                  view it has to be so answered, because the word is not original in
                  Romance (it does not even occur in Portuguese), and there is no other
                  language around from which both Cast. zarpa and Bq. zarpa could be
                  assumed to have been borrowed .60 I propose that zarpa is originally a
                  Basque word meaning 'claw' that was borrowed into Castilian, where it
                  preserved the original meaning, and then gradually receded in its
                  original meaning until it survived with the meta-phorical meaning 'spur'.
                  As for the other +sarp- words discussed above, I would like to propose
                  that they all go back to the same Vasconic word +sarpV- that survives
                  residually in Bq. zarpa 'spur', i.e., that they are prehistoric
                  Vasconic loans exactly as Span. zarpa is a medieval Basque loan. As a
                  likely original meaning of Vasconic +sarpV- I would like to consider
                  'claw'; 'spur', 'rob', 'sharp' and 'sickle' would then represent
                  metonymical and metaphorical shifts based on this original meaning.
                  Alternatively, and perhaps preferably, 'sharp' or 'sharp object' could
                  be basic, with 'claw', 'spur', 'rob', and 'sickle' as specific
                  applications.
                  Is there then a way to connect this group of +sarp- words to [372 Gmc.
                  +skarp- 'sharp' and to Gmc. +kerb- 'to carve'? In principle, there
                  are, of course, even two ways: inserting the +-k- and deleting the
                  +-k-. If it were not for +kerb-, one way of connecting +sarp- and
                  +skarp- 'sharp' would be assuming a contamination of Vasconic +sarpV-
                  with IE +sker- 'to cut' yielding +skarpV- 'sharp'. However, if one
                  wants to connect +kerb- 'to carve' as well, the only way seems to be
                  the other way around: to assume a Vasconic form +skarpV- 'claw' (or
                  'sharp (object)'). Bq. zarpa 'spur' would phonologically derive by way
                  of implementing the constraint
                  +sk > s / #__
                  of the preceding section. Gmc. +sharp- 'sharp' would preserve the
                  original shape of the root. The +sarp- forms of German and Dutch,
                  Balto-Slavic, Latin, and Greek would have to be explained as
                  borrowings from varieties of Vasconic that had already implemented the
                  above constraint at the times of contact. The +kerb- group would have
                  to be interpreted as another out come of the Vasconic process of
                  cluster simplification, leaving the plosive rather than the fricative.61
                  The only other case of an sk-/s- variation in Germanic is that of the
                  preterite-present Goth. OHG skal/skulum, ON skal/skulom, OS
                  scal/sculun, OFris. skel, skil, OE sceal/sculon 'owe(s), shall'.
                  Kluge/Seebold (1995: s.v. sollen) consider the meaning 'to owe'
                  original (cf. also Gm. Soll n. 'debit', schuld 'at fault, to blame',
                  Schuld f. 'guilt', Schulden pl. 'debts', schulden 'to owe') and
                  compare Lith ske.´leti 'to owe'. "Weitere Herkunft unklar." The OED
                  (s.v. shall) says, "Outside Teut. the only certain cognates are Lith.
                  skeleti to be guilty, skìlti to get into debt, skolà debt, guilt,
                  OPrussian skallisnan (acc.) duty, skellânts guilty, po-skulit to
                  admonish."
                  This verb has a variant saln/suln. Braune/Eggers (1987: § 146 n. 4 and
                  § 374) and Kluge/Seebold (1995: s.v. sollen) assume the sk- forms as
                  basic and explain the loss of -k- as a [373 consequence of weak
                  sentence accent; Kluge/Seebold refer to a similar development in
                  English. About this parallel as well as proposed explanations, the OED
                  says:
                  The northern English dialects (including Sc[otch]) have a form sal,
                  pa. tense suld, with initial s instead of sh. This does not occur in
                  the remains of ONorthumbrian, but first appears in the 13th c. It is
                  remarkable that a similar form, with s irregularly representing OTeut.
                  sk, existed as a dialectal variant in OHG. (sal, sol, sulun) and
                  OFris. (sal, sel), and has ousted the regular form in Ger. (soll,
                  sollen) and Du. (zal, zou). Some scholars regard the s form as
                  representing an OTeut. variant, originating from the euphonic dropping
                  of k in inflexional forms like the subjunctive *skli:-. It seems more
                  probable that it was independently developed in the different dialects
                  at an early period, while, the sk- retained its original
                  pronunciation; in stressless position the k might naturally be
                  dropped, and the simplified initial afterwards extended by analogy to
                  the stressed use.
                  Prokosch (1939: 191 n. 3) believes that the -k- was first lost from
                  sk- in zero grade forms where the cluster stood before the nuclear
                  liquid prior to the anaptyxis of u, from where the s- onset
                  subsequently generalized. Braune/Eggers (1987: § 146 n. 4) support the
                  accentual weakening hypothesis by pointing to the further reduction of
                  the form in Swed. Gutn. al.
                  The Old High German variants scarpf/sarpf and skal/sal (etc.) develop
                  differently in time (Braune/Eggers 1987: § 146 n. 4 and § 374): In the
                  oldest documents sarpf dominates; scarpf only occurs occasionally,
                  e.g. Hildebrandslied v. 64 (scarpen scurim: dat in dem sciltim
                  stont62), becomes a little more frequent in the 10th/11th centuries,
                  and begins to oust sarpf/sarf in Middle High German. By contrast, sal
                  forms are rare in early Old High German but become dominant toward the
                  end of the 10th century.
                  Since sk- dominates in the Germanic preterite-present from the
                  earliest times and can be related to sk- verbs in Baltic, the best
                  assumption seems to be that it represents the original onset.
                  The limited distribution, however, is another problem: The root only
                  occurs in Germanic and Baltic.63 This makes it likely [374 that we are
                  dealing with a prehistoric loan-word, borrowed at a time when the
                  verbal and deverbal formation processes (including the ablaut system)
                  were still strong enough to integrate such a borrowed item.
                  Judging by its meaning, the item may have been borrowed with a social
                  significance. This is perhaps underlined by a word that is not
                  generally associated with the preterito-present64 but may nevertheless
                  belong here, and whose social significance is obvious: Gmc. +skalkaz
                  m. 'servant' as in Goth. skulks, ON skalkr (NIcel. skálkur 'rogue'),
                  OHG scalc (NHG Schalk 'wag, rascal'), OS scalk, OFris. skalk, OE
                  scealc (Engl. shalk poet. obs.65). "Herkunft unklar" (Kluge/Seebold
                  1995: s.v.). "No cognates outside Teut. have been found" (OED: s.v.
                  shalk). Considering the fact that debts used to be (and still are in
                  many parts of the world) a regular cause of servitude, Gmc. +skalkaz
                  m. 'servant' could be derived from the preterite-present. 66 A way to
                  combine the two items is the assumption of a radical laryngeal in the
                  borrowed word, as proposed by Beekes (1988: 99)67, e.g. +skalH-/
                  skulH-. This would agree well with Germanic root structure and would
                  explain the ablaut vowel of the plural forms (e.g. OE sculon not
                  sce:alon). It would also explain the doublet with root-final k,
                  +skalk-a-z, because it often happens that a segment threatened by
                  weakening and loss is saved by strengthening. This apparently happened
                  again when the word [375 was borrowed from Germanic or Baltic into
                  Finno-Ugric as +kelki-, +kelke- 'to have to, to be to', as in Lapp.
                  gâl'gâ 'to be to, to have to', Hung. kell- 'to have to, to be to, to
                  need; to please' (cf. Koivulehto 1991: 69 n. 37). The replacement of a
                  laryngeal (in a wide sense, including not only glottal slops and
                  fricatives but also e.g. velar fricatives) with k, especially in
                  contact with l, does not only occur by way of sound substitution in
                  loan-words but also as a language-internal development. This
                  phenomenon has been described by Lutz (1991: 43-45), cf. the following
                  examples:
                  OE ho:h > StEngl. hough /hAk/ 'hollow of the knee'
                  OE he:ahfore > dial. heckfer alongside StEngl. heifer
                  Late OE dweorg, dweorh > ME dwergh/dwerf/ dwerk, Engl. dial. dwerk
                  alongside StEngl. dwarf Engl. dial. selk alongside StEngl. seal
                  (zool.) OE eolh > ME elgh/elk, Engl. elk
                  As for the source of the putative loan-word or loan-complex, one place
                  to look would be Basque again, remembering that initial +sk- there
                  would be reduced to z- /s-/ and that intervocalic -l- would appear as
                  -r-, after apocope as -r~, which in turn may be generalized (cf.
                  Michelena 1977: chs. 16, 17). It so happens that the Common Basque
                  word zor (zorr-) means '[Span.| deuda, [Fr.] debte', i.e. 'debt'. It
                  could continue an ancient +skolV or +skulV, perhaps from an earlier
                  +skolHV or +skulHV (with a laryngeal H, see above).68 Caesar (Bell.
                  Gall. III. 22) describes a kind of Aquitanian brotherhood of 600 men,
                  locally called Soldurians (Soldurii), who "owe" their lives to
                  friends, in the sense that they share their friends' joys of life but
                  in return have to follow them into a violent death, either by
                  perishing with them or by committing suicide - a debt which [376
                  no-one in living memory had ever refused to pay.69 Since the name is
                  used by the local people (illi), the inhabitants of the city of the
                  Sotiates, in Aquitaine, Caesar's Aquitania, the name is likely to be
                  Aquitanian, and thus Vasconic.70 Perhaps then the first part of the
                  name Soldurii is the same as Basque zor 'debt'.71

                  54. Owing to another segmental constraint, Basque does not allow
                  labialized velars.
                  55. There are more etymological riddles connected to this group
                  which I cannot all follow up in this paper. E.g., Gmc. +grab-a- (str.
                  verb, class VI) 'to dig' (Goth. OHG graban, ON grafa, OS grava, OFris.
                  gre:fa, griova, OE grafan) can, according to Kluge/Seebold (1995: s.v.
                  graben), only be directly compared to Latv. grebt 'to scrape out, to
                  hollow out' and to OCS greti 'to row, to dig' and further be
                  associated with PIE *ghrebh- 'to grasp, to grip, to seize'. It seems
                  to me that the concept of digging is semantically
                  closer to the idea of using a sharp instrument than to that of
                  gripping. The OED (s.v. grave v.) says, "Cognates are found in OS1.
                  greba I dig (also, I row), grobu ditch, Lettish grebju I scrape.
                  Connexion with Gr. gráphein, to write, is no longer accepted by
                  philologists. " This connection must indeed be rejected if the compared
                  items are understood as native Indo-European; in a loan-complex
                  involving several borrowing languages such want of precision,
                  especially on the phonological side, is exactly what must be expected.
                  56. According to Frisk (1973: s.v. hárpe:), the 'bird of prey'
                  word is derived metonymically from the 'sickle' word, after the
                  sickle-shaped claws. I have no objection against the assumption that
                  the 'bird of prey' word was derived metonymically from an old 'claw'
                  word. However, since claws are older than sickles, perhaps the 'claw'
                  meaning is basic to the group, the 'sickle' meaning being
                  metaphorically derived from the 'claw' meaning, The original meaning
                  may be 'sharp (object)', see below.
                  57. "Eigentlich 'mit Krallen versehen' (?)" (Frisk 1973: s.v.
                  hárpe:). I think this is a simple metaphor, cf. Gm. coll. (sich dat.)
                  krallen w. acc. 'to take/snatch away, take possession of (unlawfully) '.
                  58. Russ. serpU 'sickle' (Walde/Hofmann 1982: s.v. sarpio:/sarpo: ).
                  59. This meaning occurs only in one community of the High
                  Navarrese dialect. One interpretation of such restricted application
                  makes it appear likely that this meaning is residual and thus possibly
                  very old.
                  60. In particular the Castilian word is unlikely to continue
                  Lat. sarp-, because the regular reflex of Lat. s- in Castilian is s-
                  not z-.
                  61. Such different outcomes of constraint implementation are
                  known from Finnish loan-word adaptation of st- first as s-, later as
                  t- (cf. Vennemann
                  1995c: n. 129, with reference to Koivulehto 1994: 85). An example of
                  st-—> s- is Gmc. +sto:da- (OHG stuot, NHG Stute, Gestüt, OSwed. sto:þ)
                  'mare' —> Finn, (old, dial.) suota 'herd of mares in heat, herd of
                  horses'; an example of st—> t- is Gmc. +stango: (Gm. Stange, ON
                  sto,ng) —> Finn. tanko 'pole, stick, staff, rod'.
                  62. With Low Saxonizing -p- for -ph-. The alliteration warrants
                  the sk- onset.
                  63. Prokosch (1939: 192) connects Lat. scelus, -eris n. 'guilt,
                  crime' but Walde/Hofmann (1982: s.v.), glossing the word 'Bosheit,
                  Verruchtheit, Verbrechen' ('wickedness, infamy, crime'), consider this
                  connection uncertain, while Ernout/Meillet (1959), glossing the word
                  'mauvaise action, faute, crime', declare the connection to be "pas
                  davantage".
                  64. The proposal was made by von Grienberger (1900: 187).
                  Lehmann (l986: s.v. skalks) refers to it but rejects it, without
                  giving reasons.
                  65. "The word forms the second element in *marho-skalko- z
                  'horse-servant' , marshal n." (OED: s.v. shalk).
                  66. Without wanting to press the issue, perhaps the word
                  shilling finds an ex-planation along these lines, too: Goth.
                  skilliggs, ON skillingr (Icel. also skildingr), OHG scilling,
                  skillink, OS. scilling (MLG also schildink), OFris. skilling,
                  skilleng, schilling. The original meaning could be that of a unit of
                  compensation or taxation, and thus of what one owes. If correct, this
                  would show the e grade of the verbal root in Germanic.
                  67. Beekes assumes the root to be Indo-European, despite its
                  restricted occurrence.
                  68. Even though zor 'debt' is monosyllabic in all contemporary
                  varieties of Basque, there is an older form zoor on record whose
                  spelling is in certain other w ords a sign of hiatus, i.e. of
                  disyllabicity (Michelena 1977: § 5.3). This may show that the equation
                  with the Germanic and Baltic words is wrong. However, it may also be a
                  trace of the way the word was simplified, e.g. +skolHV > +skoHlV
                  (metathesis) > +skoHolV (anaptyxis) > +zoHolV (onset cluster
                  reduction) > +zoHorV > +zoHor > zoor > zor. If a change, type employed
                  by Löpelmann (1968: s.v. sorr) who identifies Bq. zor with Span.
                  socorro 'help, assistance, support, advance payment', is attested,
                  then one could see the hiatus as a consequence of the way onset
                  clusters of a sibilant and a plosive were simplified: +skolHV >
                  +sokolHV (by echo anaptyxis) > +sokolV > +sokorV > +sokor > +sohor >
                  zoor > zor. In any event, Löpelmann's own etymology appears weak to me
                  for semantic reasons.
                  69. "... cum DC devotis, quos illi soldurios appellant - quorum
                  haec est condicio, uti omnibus in vita commodis una cum iis fruantur,
                  quorum se amicitiae dediderint, si quid his per vim accidat, aut
                  eundem casum una ferant aut sibi mortem consciscant; neque adhuc
                  hominum memoria reper-tus est quisquam, qui eo interfecto, cuius se
                  amicitiae devovisset, mortem recusaret - ..." (Caesar [1990]: III.
                  22). Walde/Hofmann (1982: s.v. soldu:rii) gloss the name 'die jdm.
                  durch ein Gelübde verpflichteten, die Getreuen', i.e. 'those obligated
                  (indebted) to someone by a vow, the faithful ones' and report on
                  several doubtful etymological attempts. Ernout/Meillet (1959: s.v.
                  soldurii:) say 'gardes du corps ou vassaux d'un chef gaulois. Nom
                  donné expressement comme gaulois par Cesar, BG 3, 22, 1), without
                  giving etymologies.
                  70. Aquitanian is considered an early regional variety of Basque
                  by Michelena (1954), Gorrochategui (1984, 1987), and Trask (1997:
                  398-403).
                  71. From a Basque point of view, the second part of the stem
                  could be a compositional head meaning 'having', cf. e.g. Bq. hobendun,
                  hobenduri 'guilty' (hoben 'fault, blame'), cf. Löpelmann 1968: s.v.
                  -duri/-duru. Perhaps a similar formation existed in Aquitanian, so
                  that the literal meaning of Soldurii could have been 'those having (a)
                  debt (to pay)'.
                  "

                  That was kinda long. Hope it answers your questions.

                  > =======
                  > > A conspicuous feature of Bask, also visible in Etruscan,
                  > > is that PIE *l and *r are reflected as [s] written -z- in Bask.
                  > > Example :
                  > > Lip < *lap? = Bask ezp-ain < *zap-in
                  > > hence zango is in fact the same as leg and Greek laks.
                  >
                  > Where did that come from?
                  > ============ =
                  > A.F
                  > I suppose the lateral [l] and vibrant [r]
                  > gradually became lateral fricative[lsh] ,
                  > the lateral component was lost,
                  > the fricative feature became prevalent
                  > and finally merged with s.
                  > This process made room for *(n)d > Bask l
                  > and *(n)t? > r
                  > The basic comparative rule is simple :
                  > Bask l or r can never correspond to l or r in PIE.
                  > Any similarity points immediately toward borrowing.

                  I see, you made it up yourself. Other examples?

                  Torsten

                • Rick McCallister
                  You didn t read Vennemann well enough. It s true that in Roman times that Basque (not *Bask), rejected initial consonant clusters. BUT Vennemann is referring
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 4, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    You didn't read Vennemann well enough. It's true that
                    in Roman times that Basque (not *Bask), rejected
                    initial consonant clusters.
                    BUT Vennemann is referring to Vasconic, which is not
                    the same thing or the same time.
                    Vasconic is TV's name for a group of languages related
                    to Basque that form a proposed substrate in W Europe
                    perhaps 1000 BC or so (my conjectural dates, not TV,
                    who I don't think gives dates)
                    Eskuin does not come from Latin dexter. And if it did
                    you, you'd have to explain ezker or esker (I fotget
                    which) "left" as **deks- "right" + erda "other" as in
                    "your other right hand". It makes for snappy repartee
                    but nappy lx.
                    It's more likely that proto-Basque *esk- meant
                    something like "hand, arm. side, etc." And -uin, who
                    knows? you can relate it to oin "foot" if you want to
                    be daring and go out on a limb. Now, as Miguel
                    Carrasquer pointed out, oin may well be related to IE
                    and may come from *potVn.
                    And esker, ezker (sp?) that might be *esk- + erda
                    "other", i.e. a taboo form like Romance words for
                    "left" that avoid "sinister"

                    --- "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@...>
                    wrote:

                    > All this amount of data is fairly complicated.
                    >
                    > If we concentrate on two main hypotheses :
                    > H1 : Proto-Germanic has borrowed a certain number of
                    > words
                    > from proto-Bask, or some non PIE western European
                    > languages,
                    > H2 : Proto-Bask had clusters *sk- or *st- that
                    > simplified into <s> or <z>.
                    > then
                    > what I think is this :
                    > H1 :
                    > I think that most people (99,9%) will agree on the
                    > statement that :
                    > "Proto-Bask or any proto-Bask cognate language is
                    > likely to have been
                    > separated from proto-Germanic by either or both
                    > Celtic and Italic".
                    > Hence proto-Germanic is not the most likely IE
                    > language where
                    > proto-Bask words are to be found.
                    > Basically, Vennemann's idea "swims against the tide"
                    > ;
                    > Celtic and Italic are the right subgroups where to
                    > find loanwords from proto-Bask.
                    > Proto-Germanic cannot be.
                    > H2 :
                    > I personally think highly unlikely that proto-BAsk
                    > and maybe
                    > most BAsk-cognate languages ever had initial
                    > clusters.
                    > Apart from *lap?-in > e-zp-ain "lip",
                    > another instance is "right side" :
                    > *dek-ster = BAsk e-sk-uin where *dek > *e-dk- > esk.
                    > Initial clusters born thru metathesis uniformly
                    > trigger *e-.
                    > Inherited #sk-an should become *esk- not **s-.
                    > This conclusion ruins Venneman's proposed examples.
                    >
                    > Next :
                    > Some "membra disjecta" in PIE can be reassembled :
                    > - *konH-mo : ham
                    > - *s-keng- : shin-, shank, heel, etc
                    > It feels strange that nobody has made connections
                    > between these words.
                    > Connections seem to me as fairly obvious.
                    > Shin and shank do not require non PIE explanations.
                    > Within PIE, they nicely connect with other PIE
                    > words.
                    >
                    > Next :
                    > My point of view is that
                    > Italian zanca or cianca and Italian zampa could not
                    > be dealt with separately.
                    > All mean "leg" or "paw" : explaining zanca but not
                    > zampa amounts to nothing.
                    > The same is true with Spanish zancudo "mosquito" and
                    > Italian zanzara.
                    > One cannot trim data and select one third of
                    > semantically related words.
                    > If zampa is not explained, explanations for zanca
                    > mean nothing.
                    > This is another hard blow on Venneman's data.
                    >
                    > I am afraid that most if not all what I can read
                    > in the following lines amounts to nothing.
                    > Everything sounds rickety, incomplete,
                    > controversial.
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: tgpedersen
                    > To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 5:58 PM
                    > Subject: [tied] Re: bask r and l
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "fournet.arnaud"
                    > <fournet.arnaud@...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > It is Vennemann's contention that Proto-Vasconic
                    > did
                    > > once have initial clusters and that eg. *sCV- >
                    > zV-
                    >
                    > > A.F
                    > > What examples can you give ?
                    > >
                    > Vennemann:
                    > Etymologische Beziehungen im Alten Europa, in
                    > Europa Vasconica - Europa Semitica.
                    > "
                    > 7.6.24. Schenkel, ae. sceanca; Schinken
                    > Bei Kluge/Seebold heißt es zu Schenkel: "Mhd.
                    > schenkel, mndt.
                    > schinkel, mndl. sc(h)enkel; Diminutivum zu ae.
                    > sceanca, mndt. schinke
                    > 'Schenkel' (es kann auch ein Diminutivum zu
                    > Schinken ... mitgewirkt
                    > haben). Hierzu vielleicht mit dissimiliertem
                    > Anlaut ai. sákthi n.
                    > 'Schenkel'. Vermutlich zu einer Grundlage mit der
                    > Bedeutung 'schräg',
                    > die in anord. skakkr 'hinkend, schief erhalten
                    > wäre." Letzteres wird
                    > des weiteren mit hinken usw. verbunden.
                    > Meines Erachtens sollte bask. zango 'Fuß, Bein'127
                    > (de Azkue)
                    > verglichen werden; ferner sanga, sango, sanka,
                    > sankho, s.ango, s^ango,
                    > s^anko 'Fuß, Bein [usw.]' (Löpelmann)128, dazu
                    > dort s^ungo
                    > 'Hinterkeule (Hammel, Pferd)', das semantisch gut
                    > zu dt. Schinken,
                    > Schunke paßt. Urvaskon. +skanko 'Fuß, Bein' wäre
                    > eine gute Grundlage
                    > sowohl für die indogermanischen (wohl vor allem
                    > oder ausschließlich
                    > germanischen) Lehnwörter als auch für die
                    > baskischen Wörter, letzteres
                    > nach der Lautregel +sk > s / #___, allgemeiner +sP
                    > > s / #___für
                    > Plosive, P = p, t, k (das Baskische erlaubt ja
                    > keine
                    > Anlautgruppen).129 Bask. s~anku 'hinkend' (de
                    > Azkue) dürfte durch
                    > diminuierende Palatalisierung zu zango 'Fuß, Bein'
                    > gebildet sein.
                    > Offenbar ist eine alte, entsprechende Ableitung
                    > mit dem [86 Fuß-Wort
                    > ins Germanische entlehnt worden, wo sie in an.
                    > skakkr (+skanka-)
                    > 'hinkend, schief erhalten ist.
                    >
                    > 127. Die Bedeutung schwankt regional wie auch bei
                    > dt. Fuß, das im
                    > Süddeutschen weithin soviel wie 'Bein' bedeutet.
                    > 128. Löpelmann leitet das Wort aus dem Romanischen
                    > her; aber die
                    > angeführten romanischen Wörter haben ihm zufolge
                    > selbst keine gute
                    > Etymologie, so daß ich sie umgekehrt als aus dem
                    > Baskischen entlehnt
                    > betrachte.
                    > 129. Im Finnischen findet sich dies bei
                    > Entlehnungen der älteren Zeit,
                    > doch ist es nur für st- exemplifiziert; vgl. J.
                    > Koivulehto,
                    > Reallexikon, Band 9: s.v. Finnland, 1.
                    > Sprachliches, S. 85: "Die
                    > Reflexe der germ. Verbindung st im Anlaut vor
                    > Vokal: a) frühurfinn.
                    > s-; b) späturfinn. t-. Beispiele: a) finn. (ält.,
                    > dial.) suota
                    > 'läufige Stutenherde, Pferdeherde' < frühurfinn.
                    > *so:ta bzw. *so:ða ~
                    > frühgerm. *sto:ða- (vorgerm. *sta:dho-) > ahd.
                    > stuot, aschwed. sto:þ
                    > id. [vgl. nhd. Stute, Gestüt]; b) finn. tanko
                    > 'Stange' < späturfinn.
                    > *tan,ko ~ germ. *stanga: > anord. sto,ng
                    > 'Stange'." Vgl. noch ebd.
                    > "[finn.] saura 'Trockengestell für Heu, Laub;
                    > einzelner Pfahl daran' <
                    > *sapra ~ frühgerm. *staura- > anord. staurr
                    > 'Pfahl' (frühurfinn. -pr-
                    > statt -vr-, das nicht vorkam).
                    >
                    > 7.6.26. stinken, got. stigqan 'stoßen'
                    > Dieses Verbum ist gemeingermanisch, wobei freilich
                    > die Bedeutungen
                    > weit auseinandergehen. Die Bedeutung im Gotischen
                    > wird als
                    > Ausgangsbedeutung betrachtet, andere Bedeutungen
                    > als abgeleitet (z.B.
                    > die Bedeutung 'riechen' wie bei etwas stößt mir
                    > auf, ein Geruch
                    > schlägt mir entgegen. "Weitere Herkunft unklar"
                    > (Kluge/Seebold);
                    > "Etymology unclear" (Lehmann 1986: s.v. stigqan).
                    > Es gibt im Baskischen ein Substantiv zunka 'Stoß
                    > mit dem Kopf, den die
                    > Kälber beim Saugen geben' (de Azkue, nur eine
                    > Ortschaft im
                    > Labourdinischen), sunka 'Schlag, Stoß', mit
                    > Ableitungen, z.B. sunkatu
                    > 'stoßen' (Löpelmann). Dem baskischen Wort braucht
                    > keineswegs span.
                    > port. galiz. choquer zugrunde zu liegen
                    > (Löpelmann), sondern es kann
                    > vaskon. +stunkwa lautgesetzlich fortsetzen (+st- >
                    > s- / #___im Zuge
                    > der Vereinfachung aller Anlautgruppen auf einen
                    > einzigen
                    > Konsonanten130, und +kw > k). Aus einer solchen
                    > Wurzel könnte ein
                    > germanisches +stunkwan gewonnen sein, das im Zuge
                    > der Regularisierung
                    > des Verbsystems in die dritte Klasse geriet. Bei
                    > Lehmann wird eine
                    >
                    === message truncated ===




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                  • michelmrvn
                    ... is no esk-uin right and certainly not with oin
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 9, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > You didn't read Vennemann well enough. It's true that
                      > in Roman times that Basque (not *Bask), rejected
                      > initial consonant clusters.
                      > BUT Vennemann is referring to Vasconic, which is not
                      > the same thing or the same time.
                      > Vasconic is TV's name for a group of languages related
                      > to Basque that form a proposed substrate in W Europe
                      > perhaps 1000 BC or so (my conjectural dates, not TV,
                      > who I don't think gives dates)
                      > Eskuin does not come from Latin dexter. And if it did
                      > you, you'd have to explain ezker or esker (I fotget
                      > which) "left" as **deks- "right" + erda "other" as in
                      > "your other right hand". It makes for snappy repartee
                      > but nappy lx.
                      > It's more likely that proto-Basque *esk- meant
                      > something like "hand, arm. side, etc." And -uin, who
                      > knows? you can relate it to oin "foot" if you want to
                      > be daring and go out on a limb. Now, as Miguel
                      > Carrasquer pointed out, oin may well be related to IE
                      > and may come from *potVn.
                      > And esker, ezker (sp?) that might be *esk- + erda
                      > "other", i.e. a taboo form like Romance words for
                      > "left" that avoid "sinister"
                      >
                      > --- "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@...>
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      > > All this amount of data is fairly complicated.
                      > >
                      > > If we concentrate on two main hypotheses :
                      > > H1 : Proto-Germanic has borrowed a certain number of
                      > > words
                      > > from proto-Bask, or some non PIE western European
                      > > languages,
                      > > H2 : Proto-Bask had clusters *sk- or *st- that
                      > > simplified into <s> or <z>.
                      > > then
                      > > what I think is this :
                      > > H1 :
                      > > I think that most people (99,9%) will agree on the
                      > > statement that :
                      > > "Proto-Bask or any proto-Bask cognate language is
                      > > likely to have been
                      > > separated from proto-Germanic by either or both
                      > > Celtic and Italic".
                      > > Hence proto-Germanic is not the most likely IE
                      > > language where
                      > > proto-Bask words are to be found.
                      > > Basically, Vennemann's idea "swims against the tide"
                      > > ;
                      > > Celtic and Italic are the right subgroups where to
                      > > find loanwords from proto-Bask.
                      > > Proto-Germanic cannot be.
                      > > H2 :
                      > > I personally think highly unlikely that proto-BAsk
                      > > and maybe
                      > > most BAsk-cognate languages ever had initial
                      > > clusters.
                      > > Apart from *lap?-in > e-zp-ain "lip",
                      > > another instance is "right side" :
                      > > *dek-ster = BAsk e-sk-uin where *dek > *e-dk- > esk.
                      > > Initial clusters born thru metathesis uniformly
                      > > trigger *e-.
                      > > Inherited #sk-an should become *esk- not **s-.
                      > > This conclusion ruins Venneman's proposed examples.
                      > >
                      > > Next :
                      > > Some "membra disjecta" in PIE can be reassembled :
                      > > - *konH-mo : ham
                      > > - *s-keng- : shin-, shank, heel, etc
                      > > It feels strange that nobody has made connections
                      > > between these words.
                      > > Connections seem to me as fairly obvious.
                      > > Shin and shank do not require non PIE explanations.
                      > > Within PIE, they nicely connect with other PIE
                      > > words.
                      > >
                      > > Next :
                      > > My point of view is that
                      > > Italian zanca or cianca and Italian zampa could not
                      > > be dealt with separately.
                      > > All mean "leg" or "paw" : explaining zanca but not
                      > > zampa amounts to nothing.
                      > > The same is true with Spanish zancudo "mosquito" and
                      > > Italian zanzara.
                      > > One cannot trim data and select one third of
                      > > semantically related words.
                      > > If zampa is not explained, explanations for zanca
                      > > mean nothing.
                      > > This is another hard blow on Venneman's data.
                      > >
                      > > I am afraid that most if not all what I can read
                      > > in the following lines amounts to nothing.
                      > > Everything sounds rickety, incomplete,
                      > > controversial.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: tgpedersen
                      > > To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 5:58 PM
                      > > Subject: [tied] Re: bask r and l
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "fournet.arnaud"
                      > > <fournet.arnaud@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > It is Vennemann's contention that Proto-Vasconic
                      > > did
                      > > > once have initial clusters and that eg. *sCV- >
                      > > zV-
                      > >
                      > > > A.F
                      > > > What examples can you give ?
                      > > >
                      > > Vennemann:
                      > > Etymologische Beziehungen im Alten Europa, in
                      > > Europa Vasconica - Europa Semitica.
                      > > "
                      > > 7.6.24. Schenkel, ae. sceanca; Schinken
                      > > Bei Kluge/Seebold heißt es zu Schenkel: "Mhd.
                      > > schenkel, mndt.
                      > > schinkel, mndl. sc(h)enkel; Diminutivum zu ae.
                      > > sceanca, mndt. schinke
                      > > 'Schenkel' (es kann auch ein Diminutivum zu
                      > > Schinken ... mitgewirkt
                      > > haben). Hierzu vielleicht mit dissimiliertem
                      > > Anlaut ai. sákthi n.
                      > > 'Schenkel'. Vermutlich zu einer Grundlage mit der
                      > > Bedeutung 'schräg',
                      > > die in anord. skakkr 'hinkend, schief erhalten
                      > > wäre." Letzteres wird
                      > > des weiteren mit hinken usw. verbunden.
                      > > Meines Erachtens sollte bask. zango 'Fuß, Bein'127
                      > > (de Azkue)
                      > > verglichen werden; ferner sanga, sango, sanka,
                      > > sankho, s.ango, s^ango,
                      > > s^anko 'Fuß, Bein [usw.]' (Löpelmann)128, dazu
                      > > dort s^ungo
                      > > 'Hinterkeule (Hammel, Pferd)', das semantisch gut
                      > > zu dt. Schinken,
                      > > Schunke paßt. Urvaskon. +skanko 'Fuß, Bein' wäre
                      > > eine gute Grundlage
                      > > sowohl für die indogermanischen (wohl vor allem
                      > > oder ausschließlich
                      > > germanischen) Lehnwörter als auch für die
                      > > baskischen Wörter, letzteres
                      > > nach der Lautregel +sk > s / #___, allgemeiner +sP
                      > > > s / #___für
                      > > Plosive, P = p, t, k (das Baskische erlaubt ja
                      > > keine
                      > > Anlautgruppen).129 Bask. s~anku 'hinkend' (de
                      > > Azkue) dürfte durch
                      > > diminuierende Palatalisierung zu zango 'Fuß, Bein'
                      > > gebildet sein.
                      > > Offenbar ist eine alte, entsprechende Ableitung
                      > > mit dem [86 Fuß-Wort
                      > > ins Germanische entlehnt worden, wo sie in an.
                      > > skakkr (+skanka-)
                      > > 'hinkend, schief erhalten ist.
                      > >
                      > > 127. Die Bedeutung schwankt regional wie auch bei
                      > > dt. Fuß, das im
                      > > Süddeutschen weithin soviel wie 'Bein' bedeutet.
                      > > 128. Löpelmann leitet das Wort aus dem Romanischen
                      > > her; aber die
                      > > angeführten romanischen Wörter haben ihm zufolge
                      > > selbst keine gute
                      > > Etymologie, so daß ich sie umgekehrt als aus dem
                      > > Baskischen entlehnt
                      > > betrachte.
                      > > 129. Im Finnischen findet sich dies bei
                      > > Entlehnungen der älteren Zeit,
                      > > doch ist es nur für st- exemplifiziert; vgl. J.
                      > > Koivulehto,
                      > > Reallexikon, Band 9: s.v. Finnland, 1.
                      > > Sprachliches, S. 85: "Die
                      > > Reflexe der germ. Verbindung st im Anlaut vor
                      > > Vokal: a) frühurfinn.
                      > > s-; b) späturfinn. t-. Beispiele: a) finn. (ält.,
                      > > dial.) suota
                      > > 'läufige Stutenherde, Pferdeherde' < frühurfinn.
                      > > *so:ta bzw. *so:ða ~
                      > > frühgerm. *sto:ða- (vorgerm. *sta:dho-) > ahd.
                      > > stuot, aschwed. sto:þ
                      > > id. [vgl. nhd. Stute, Gestüt]; b) finn. tanko
                      > > 'Stange' < späturfinn.
                      > > *tan,ko ~ germ. *stanga: > anord. sto,ng
                      > > 'Stange'." Vgl. noch ebd.
                      > > "[finn.] saura 'Trockengestell für Heu, Laub;
                      > > einzelner Pfahl daran' <
                      > > *sapra ~ frühgerm. *staura- > anord. staurr
                      > > 'Pfahl' (frühurfinn. -pr-
                      > > statt -vr-, das nicht vorkam).
                      > >
                      > > 7.6.26. stinken, got. stigqan 'stoßen'
                      > > Dieses Verbum ist gemeingermanisch, wobei freilich
                      > > die Bedeutungen
                      > > weit auseinandergehen. Die Bedeutung im Gotischen
                      > > wird als
                      > > Ausgangsbedeutung betrachtet, andere Bedeutungen
                      > > als abgeleitet (z.B.
                      > > die Bedeutung 'riechen' wie bei etwas stößt mir
                      > > auf, ein Geruch
                      > > schlägt mir entgegen. "Weitere Herkunft unklar"
                      > > (Kluge/Seebold);
                      > > "Etymology unclear" (Lehmann 1986: s.v. stigqan).
                      > > Es gibt im Baskischen ein Substantiv zunka 'Stoß
                      > > mit dem Kopf, den die
                      > > Kälber beim Saugen geben' (de Azkue, nur eine
                      > > Ortschaft im
                      > > Labourdinischen), sunka 'Schlag, Stoß', mit
                      > > Ableitungen, z.B. sunkatu
                      > > 'stoßen' (Löpelmann). Dem baskischen Wort braucht
                      > > keineswegs span.
                      > > port. galiz. choquer zugrunde zu liegen
                      > > (Löpelmann), sondern es kann
                      > > vaskon. +stunkwa lautgesetzlich fortsetzen (+st- >
                      > > s- / #___im Zuge
                      > > der Vereinfachung aller Anlautgruppen auf einen
                      > > einzigen
                      > > Konsonanten130, und +kw > k). Aus einer solchen
                      > > Wurzel könnte ein
                      > > germanisches +stunkwan gewonnen sein, das im Zuge
                      > > der Regularisierung
                      > > des Verbsystems in die dritte Klasse geriet. Bei
                      > > Lehmann wird eine
                      > >
                      > === message truncated ===
                      >
                      >
                      > Sorry but what I read here about basque is completely wrong. There
                      is no esk-uin "right" and certainly not with oin < *oni "foot" !!
                      The word is esku "hand" followed by the inesive suffix -n, so
                      lit. "on the right".

                      More generally, I don't know any "Vasconic" language family. I know
                      only basque or old basque/aquitanian. As for Vennemann, what must I
                      think as a bascologue about his work when he lets come the name of
                      the city of Evreux in Normandy from basque ibar "valley"?? All
                      serious linguists know that Evreux comes from the name of the gallic
                      tribe Eburovices.

                      Michel Morvan.

                      >
                      >
                      ______________________________________________________________________
                      ______________
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                      you all the tools to get online.
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                      >
                    • Rick McCallister
                      I just joking about the foot to make a point. But I have seen ezker related by some to the word for hand + other but I m not a Vasconist. Vennemann is
                      Message 10 of 12 , Sep 9, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I just joking about the "foot" to make a point. But I
                        have seen ezker related by some to the word for hand +
                        other but I'm not a Vasconist.
                        Vennemann is interesting and should be read but people
                        should also read Trask and the mainstream lit. as
                        well.


                        --- michelmrvn <michelmrvn@...> wrote:

                        > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister
                        > <gabaroo6958@...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > You didn't read Vennemann well enough. It's true
                        > that
                        > > in Roman times that Basque (not *Bask), rejected
                        > > initial consonant clusters.
                        > > BUT Vennemann is referring to Vasconic, which is
                        > not
                        > > the same thing or the same time.
                        > > Vasconic is TV's name for a group of languages
                        > related
                        > > to Basque that form a proposed substrate in W
                        > Europe
                        > > perhaps 1000 BC or so (my conjectural dates, not
                        > TV,
                        > > who I don't think gives dates)
                        > > Eskuin does not come from Latin dexter. And if it
                        > did
                        > > you, you'd have to explain ezker or esker (I
                        > fotget
                        > > which) "left" as **deks- "right" + erda "other"
                        > as in
                        > > "your other right hand". It makes for snappy
                        > repartee
                        > > but nappy lx.
                        > > It's more likely that proto-Basque *esk- meant
                        > > something like "hand, arm. side, etc." And -uin,
                        > who
                        > > knows? you can relate it to oin "foot" if you
                        > want to
                        > > be daring and go out on a limb. Now, as Miguel
                        > > Carrasquer pointed out, oin may well be related to
                        > IE
                        > > and may come from *potVn.
                        > > And esker, ezker (sp?) that might be *esk- + erda
                        > > "other", i.e. a taboo form like Romance words for
                        > > "left" that avoid "sinister"
                        > >
                        > > --- "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > All this amount of data is fairly complicated.
                        > > >
                        > > > If we concentrate on two main hypotheses :
                        > > > H1 : Proto-Germanic has borrowed a certain
                        > number of
                        > > > words
                        > > > from proto-Bask, or some non PIE western
                        > European
                        > > > languages,
                        > > > H2 : Proto-Bask had clusters *sk- or *st- that
                        > > > simplified into <s> or <z>.
                        > > > then
                        > > > what I think is this :
                        > > > H1 :
                        > > > I think that most people (99,9%) will agree on
                        > the
                        > > > statement that :
                        > > > "Proto-Bask or any proto-Bask cognate language
                        > is
                        > > > likely to have been
                        > > > separated from proto-Germanic by either or both
                        > > > Celtic and Italic".
                        > > > Hence proto-Germanic is not the most likely IE
                        > > > language where
                        > > > proto-Bask words are to be found.
                        > > > Basically, Vennemann's idea "swims against the
                        > tide"
                        > > > ;
                        > > > Celtic and Italic are the right subgroups where
                        > to
                        > > > find loanwords from proto-Bask.
                        > > > Proto-Germanic cannot be.
                        > > > H2 :
                        > > > I personally think highly unlikely that
                        > proto-BAsk
                        > > > and maybe
                        > > > most BAsk-cognate languages ever had initial
                        > > > clusters.
                        > > > Apart from *lap?-in > e-zp-ain "lip",
                        > > > another instance is "right side" :
                        > > > *dek-ster = BAsk e-sk-uin where *dek > *e-dk- >
                        > esk.
                        > > > Initial clusters born thru metathesis uniformly
                        > > > trigger *e-.
                        > > > Inherited #sk-an should become *esk- not **s-.
                        > > > This conclusion ruins Venneman's proposed
                        > examples.
                        > > >
                        > > > Next :
                        > > > Some "membra disjecta" in PIE can be reassembled
                        > :
                        > > > - *konH-mo : ham
                        > > > - *s-keng- : shin-, shank, heel, etc
                        > > > It feels strange that nobody has made
                        > connections
                        > > > between these words.
                        > > > Connections seem to me as fairly obvious.
                        > > > Shin and shank do not require non PIE
                        > explanations.
                        > > > Within PIE, they nicely connect with other PIE
                        > > > words.
                        > > >
                        > > > Next :
                        > > > My point of view is that
                        > > > Italian zanca or cianca and Italian zampa could
                        > not
                        > > > be dealt with separately.
                        > > > All mean "leg" or "paw" : explaining zanca but
                        > not
                        > > > zampa amounts to nothing.
                        > > > The same is true with Spanish zancudo "mosquito"
                        > and
                        > > > Italian zanzara.
                        > > > One cannot trim data and select one third of
                        > > > semantically related words.
                        > > > If zampa is not explained, explanations for
                        > zanca
                        > > > mean nothing.
                        > > > This is another hard blow on Venneman's data.
                        > > >
                        > > > I am afraid that most if not all what I can read
                        >
                        > > > in the following lines amounts to nothing.
                        > > > Everything sounds rickety, incomplete,
                        > > > controversial.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > From: tgpedersen
                        > > > To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 5:58 PM
                        > > > Subject: [tied] Re: bask r and l
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com,
                        > "fournet.arnaud"
                        > > > <fournet.arnaud@>
                        > > > wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > It is Vennemann's contention that
                        > Proto-Vasconic
                        > > > did
                        > > > > once have initial clusters and that eg.
                        > *sCV- >
                        > > > zV-
                        > > >
                        > > > > A.F
                        > > > > What examples can you give ?
                        > > > >
                        > > > Vennemann:
                        > > > Etymologische Beziehungen im Alten Europa, in
                        > > > Europa Vasconica - Europa Semitica.
                        > > > "
                        > > > 7.6.24. Schenkel, ae. sceanca; Schinken
                        > > > Bei Kluge/Seebold heißt es zu Schenkel: "Mhd.
                        > > > schenkel, mndt.
                        > > > schinkel, mndl. sc(h)enkel; Diminutivum zu ae.
                        > > > sceanca, mndt. schinke
                        > > > 'Schenkel' (es kann auch ein Diminutivum zu
                        > > > Schinken ... mitgewirkt
                        > > > haben). Hierzu vielleicht mit dissimiliertem
                        > > > Anlaut ai. sákthi n.
                        > > > 'Schenkel'. Vermutlich zu einer Grundlage mit
                        > der
                        > > > Bedeutung 'schräg',
                        > > > die in anord. skakkr 'hinkend, schief erhalten
                        > > > wäre." Letzteres wird
                        > > > des weiteren mit hinken usw. verbunden.
                        > > > Meines Erachtens sollte bask. zango 'Fuß,
                        > Bein'127
                        > > > (de Azkue)
                        > > > verglichen werden; ferner sanga, sango, sanka,
                        > > > sankho, s.ango, s^ango,
                        > > > s^anko 'Fuß, Bein [usw.]' (Löpelmann)128, dazu
                        > > > dort s^ungo
                        > > > 'Hinterkeule (Hammel, Pferd)', das semantisch
                        > gut
                        > > > zu dt. Schinken,
                        > > > Schunke paßt. Urvaskon. +skanko 'Fuß, Bein'
                        > wäre
                        > > > eine gute Grundlage
                        > > > sowohl für die indogermanischen (wohl vor
                        > allem
                        > > > oder ausschließlich
                        > > > germanischen) Lehnwörter als auch für die
                        > > > baskischen Wörter, letzteres
                        > > > nach der Lautregel +sk > s / #___, allgemeiner
                        > +sP
                        > > > > s / #___für
                        > > > Plosive, P = p, t, k (das Baskische erlaubt ja
                        > > > keine
                        > > > Anlautgruppen).129 Bask. s~anku 'hinkend' (de
                        > > > Azkue) dürfte durch
                        > > > diminuierende Palatalisierung zu zango 'Fuß,
                        > Bein'
                        > > > gebildet sein.
                        > > > Offenbar ist eine alte, entsprechende
                        > Ableitung
                        >
                        === message truncated ===




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                      • fournet.arnaud
                        A possibility is *dig finger, hand dig idg isk in Basque (sic) The i better explains Spanish izquierda the other finger/hand . I don t know if this is a
                        Message 11 of 12 , Sep 9, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          A possibility is *dig "finger, hand"
                          dig > idg > isk
                          in Basque (sic)
                          The i better explains Spanish izquierda "the other finger/hand".
                           
                          I don't know if this is a cognate or a loanword.
                          esk < dek "right side" is also ambiguous.
                           
                          None of the examples listed in the previous messages
                          is enough to believe that proto-Basque or proto-Vasconic
                          ever had initial clusters.
                           
                           
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 11:09 PM
                          Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Basque r and l

                          I just joking about the "foot" to make a point. But I
                          have seen ezker related by some to the word for hand +
                          other but I'm not a Vasconist.
                          Vennemann is interesting and should be read but people
                          should also read Trask and the mainstream lit. as
                          well.

                          --- michelmrvn <michelmrvn@yahoo. com> wrote:

                          > --- In cybalist@yahoogroup s.com, Rick McCallister
                          > <gabaroo6958@ ...>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > You didn't read Vennemann well enough. It's true
                          > that
                          > > in Roman times that Basque (not *Bask), rejected
                          > > initial consonant clusters.
                          > > BUT Vennemann is referring to Vasconic, which is
                          > not
                          > > the same thing or the same time.
                          > > Vasconic is TV's name for a group of languages
                          > related
                          > > to Basque that form a proposed substrate in W
                          > Europe
                          > > perhaps 1000 BC or so (my conjectural dates, not
                          > TV,
                          > > who I don't think gives dates)
                          > > Eskuin does not come from Latin dexter. And if it
                          > did
                          > > you, you'd have to explain ezker or esker (I
                          > fotget
                          > > which) "left" as **deks- "right" + erda "other"
                          > as in
                          > > "your other right hand". It makes for snappy
                          > repartee
                          > > but nappy lx.
                          > > It's more likely that proto-Basque *esk- meant
                          > > something like "hand, arm. side, etc." And -uin,
                          > who
                          > > knows? you can relate it to oin "foot" if you
                          > want to
                          > > be daring and go out on a limb. Now, as Miguel
                          > > Carrasquer pointed out, oin may well be related to
                          > IE
                          > > and may come from *potVn.
                          > > And esker, ezker (sp?) that might be *esk- + erda
                          > > "other", i.e. a taboo form like Romance words for
                          > > "left" that avoid "sinister"
                          > >
                          > > --- "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@ ...>
                          > > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > All this amount of data is fairly complicated.
                          > > >
                          > > > If we concentrate on two main hypotheses :
                          > > > H1 : Proto-Germanic has borrowed a certain
                          > number of
                          > > > words
                          > > > from proto-Bask, or some non PIE western
                          > European
                          > > > languages,
                          > > > H2 : Proto-Bask had clusters *sk- or *st- that
                          > > > simplified into <s> or <z>.
                          > > > then
                          > > > what I think is this :
                          > > > H1 :
                          > > > I think that most people (99,9%) will agree on
                          > the
                          > > > statement that :
                          > > > "Proto-Bask or any proto-Bask cognate language
                          > is
                          > > > likely to have been
                          > > > separated from proto-Germanic by either or both
                          > > > Celtic and Italic".
                          > > > Hence proto-Germanic is not the most likely IE
                          > > > language where
                          > > > proto-Bask words are to be found.
                          > > > Basically, Vennemann's idea "swims against the
                          > tide"
                          > > > ;
                          > > > Celtic and Italic are the right subgroups where
                          > to
                          > > > find loanwords from proto-Bask.
                          > > > Proto-Germanic cannot be.
                          > > > H2 :
                          > > > I personally think highly unlikely that
                          > proto-BAsk
                          > > > and maybe
                          > > > most BAsk-cognate languages ever had initial
                          > > > clusters.
                          > > > Apart from *lap?-in > e-zp-ain "lip",
                          > > > another instance is "right side" :
                          > > > *dek-ster = BAsk e-sk-uin where *dek > *e-dk- >
                          > esk.
                          > > > Initial clusters born thru metathesis uniformly
                          > > > trigger *e-.
                          > > > Inherited #sk-an should become *esk- not **s-.
                          > > > This conclusion ruins Venneman's proposed
                          > examples.
                          > > >
                          > > > Next :
                          > > > Some "membra disjecta" in PIE can be reassembled
                          > :
                          > > > - *konH-mo : ham
                          > > > - *s-keng- : shin-, shank, heel, etc
                          > > > It feels strange that nobody has made
                          > connections
                          > > > between these words.
                          > > > Connections seem to me as fairly obvious.
                          > > > Shin and shank do not require non PIE
                          > explanations.
                          > > > Within PIE, they nicely connect with other PIE
                          > > > words.
                          > > >
                          > > > Next :
                          > > > My point of view is that
                          > > > Italian zanca or cianca and Italian zampa could
                          > not
                          > > > be dealt with separately.
                          > > > All mean "leg" or "paw" : explaining zanca but
                          > not
                          > > > zampa amounts to nothing.
                          > > > The same is true with Spanish zancudo "mosquito"
                          > and
                          > > > Italian zanzara.
                          > > > One cannot trim data and select one third of
                          > > > semantically related words.
                          > > > If zampa is not explained, explanations for
                          > zanca
                          > > > mean nothing.
                          > > > This is another hard blow on Venneman's data.
                          > > >
                          > > > I am afraid that most if not all what I can read
                          >
                          > > > in the following lines amounts to nothing.
                          > > > Everything sounds rickety, incomplete,
                          > > > controversial.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > From: tgpedersen
                          > > > To: cybalist@yahoogroup s.com
                          > > > Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 5:58 PM
                          > > > Subject: [tied] Re: bask r and l
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroup s.com,
                          > "fournet.arnaud"
                          > > > <fournet.arnaud@ >
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > It is Vennemann's contention that
                          > Proto-Vasconic
                          > > > did
                          > > > > once have initial clusters and that eg.
                          > *sCV- >
                          > > > zV-
                          > > >
                          > > > > A.F
                          > > > > What examples can you give ?
                          > > > >
                          > > > Vennemann:
                          > > > Etymologische Beziehungen im Alten Europa, in
                          > > > Europa Vasconica - Europa Semitica.
                          > > > "
                          > > > 7.6.24. Schenkel, ae. sceanca; Schinken
                          > > > Bei Kluge/Seebold heißt es zu Schenkel: "Mhd.
                          > > > schenkel, mndt.
                          > > > schinkel, mndl. sc(h)enkel; Diminutivum zu ae.
                          > > > sceanca, mndt. schinke
                          > > > 'Schenkel' (es kann auch ein Diminutivum zu
                          > > > Schinken ... mitgewirkt
                          > > > haben). Hierzu vielleicht mit dissimiliertem
                          > > > Anlaut ai. sákthi n.
                          > > > 'Schenkel'. Vermutlich zu einer Grundlage mit
                          > der
                          > > > Bedeutung 'schräg',
                          > > > die in anord. skakkr 'hinkend, schief erhalten
                          > > > wäre." Letzteres wird
                          > > > des weiteren mit hinken usw. verbunden.
                          > > > Meines Erachtens sollte bask. zango 'Fuß,
                          > Bein'127
                          > > > (de Azkue)
                          > > > verglichen werden; ferner sanga, sango, sanka,
                          > > > sankho, s.ango, s^ango,
                          > > > s^anko 'Fuß, Bein [usw.]' (Löpelmann)128, dazu
                          > > > dort s^ungo
                          > > > 'Hinterkeule (Hammel, Pferd)', das semantisch
                          > gut
                          > > > zu dt. Schinken,
                          > > > Schunke paßt. Urvaskon. +skanko 'Fuß, Bein'
                          > wäre
                          > > > eine gute Grundlage
                          > > > sowohl für die indogermanischen (wohl vor
                          > allem
                          > > > oder ausschließlich
                          > > > germanischen) Lehnwörter als auch für die
                          > > > baskischen Wörter, letzteres
                          > > > nach der Lautregel +sk > s / #___, allgemeiner
                          > +sP
                          > > > > s / #___für
                          > > > Plosive, P = p, t, k (das Baskische erlaubt ja
                          > > > keine
                          > > > Anlautgruppen) .129 Bask. s~anku 'hinkend' (de
                          > > > Azkue) dürfte durch
                          > > > diminuierende Palatalisierung zu zango 'Fuß,
                          > Bein'
                          > > > gebildet sein.
                          > > > Offenbar ist eine alte, entsprechende
                          > Ableitung
                          >
                          === message truncated ===

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