Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [tied] gwen etymology

Expand Messages
  • Piotr Gasiorowski
    It s actually asszony, isn t it? It doesn t look like a loan from Slavic to me (why not simply zsena?), but I haven t got a Finno-Ugric etymological dictionary
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 3, 2000
    • 0 Attachment
      It's actually asszony, isn't it? It doesn't look like a loan from Slavic to me (why not simply zsena?), but I haven't got a Finno-Ugric etymological dictionary at hand and so can't tell you where the word comes from.
       
      Piotr
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Max Dashu
      Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 11:56 PM
      Subject: Re: [tied] gwen etymology

      >> Slavic *z^ena > Polish z^ona (spelt  <z.ona>)

      And so is the Hungarian aszony then a loan from Slavic?

      Max Dashu



    • Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
      ... Answered (I meant: just /z^ona/ as in Sorbian too ). The only thing Piotr forgot to mention that the dot is actually on top of the . ... Not quite.
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 3, 2000
      • 0 Attachment
        On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 15:07:17 -0600, Eris <eris@...> wrote:

        >At 21:29 12/3/00 +0100, you wrote:
        >>
        >> >
        >> >Bulgarian/Polish/Slovak/Serbo-Croatian/Slovene/Cze
        >> >ch/Ukrainian/Russian
        >> > z'ena woman
        >> >Sorbian (Wendish) z'ona woman
        >>
        >> Polish is <z.ona> too.
        >
        >
        >z.ona too as in it's z.ena as well, or just z.ona? Also, is the z./z' supposed
        >to be a "zh" sound? If not, what is the marking for?

        Answered (I meant: "just /z^ona/ as in Sorbian too"). The only thing
        Piotr forgot to mention that the dot is actually on top of the <z>.

        >> >Armenian kin/gin woman/wife
        >>
        >> (With oblique form kanay-).
        >
        >Does that mean the kin (or gin?) form is in the nominative and kanay- is
        >another case(s)?

        Not quite. Greek <gunaik-> had reminded me of the Armenian plural
        forms, but I forgot to mention the real oblique stems. The full
        paradigm in Classical Armenian is:

        sg. pl.
        Nom kin kanay-k`
        Acc ,, kanay-s
        Loc kn-oj^ ,,
        Gen/Dat ,, kanan-c`
        Abl kn-oj^e: ,,
        Ins kanam-b kanam-bk`

        (<j^> = /dz^/, English <j>; <e:> = closed /e/, from *ei; <k`> =
        aspirated /k/, as in English [<k> itself is unaspirated, glottalized];
        <c`> = aspirated /ts/).

        There are actually 4 stems: kin- (< *gwen-), kn- (< *gun- < *gwn-),
        kanan- (*gwnh2(a)n-), and kanay- (< *gwnh2(a)i-). [Reconstructions
        mine, so beware. Nobody can hold all the Armenian soundlaws in one's
        head simultaneously...]

        >> What's PDE? Proletarian Democratic English? Post-Darwinian English?
        >
        >LOL, sorry. I meant "Present-Day English"... i.e., Modern English.

        It hit me right after hitting the "send" button.

        >> Were you looking in a dictionary/wordlist arranged by Devnagri order?
        >> If so, J comes between CH and JH (or Ñ, more likely).
        >
        >I have no idea what kind of order they were in, but the dicts I was looking in
        >had G, then a couple letters, then GH, then a couple letters, then G and GH
        >again, or something of the sort.

        Curious. I'm not terribly familiar with the history of the
        transcription of the Devana:gari: script. Maybe it was an older
        source with something like K KH G GH NG K^ K^H G^ G^H N^...

        >> <Jáni-> means "wife". It has irregular N. <jáni:> (besides <jánih.>)
        >
        >What do you mean by "irregular N"?

        Nominative. G. is Genitive.


        =======================
        Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
        mcv@...
      • zya@cypress.com
        ... There is also the very common Skr. kanya / kan - girl. This occurs in Avestan also. Could this be a cognate of gwen? Regards, Anirban
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 3, 2000
        • 0 Attachment
          > From: Eris
          > To: cybalist@egroups.com
          > Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 8:05 PM
          > Subject: [tied] gwen etymology

          > Sanskrit jani wife
          > Sanskrit gana/gna woman/goddess

          There is also the very common Skr. 'kanya'/'kan' - girl.
          This occurs in Avestan also. Could this be a cognate of gwen?
          Regards,
          Anirban
        • João Simões Lopes Filho
          ... looking in ... GH ... I m not sure, but I think there s an old notation where c and j were transcribed as k and g. If I m not wrong Max Mueller used this
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 4, 2000
          • 0 Attachment
            > >> Were you looking in a dictionary/wordlist arranged by Devnagri order?
            > >> If so, J comes between CH and JH (or Ñ, more likely).
            > >
            > >I have no idea what kind of order they were in, but the dicts I was
            looking in
            > >had G, then a couple letters, then GH, then a couple letters, then G and
            GH
            > >again, or something of the sort.
            >
            > Curious. I'm not terribly familiar with the history of the
            > transcription of the Devana:gari: script. Maybe it was an older
            > source with something like K KH G GH NG K^ K^H G^ G^H N^...
            >
            I'm not sure, but I think there's an old notation where c and j were
            transcribed as k and g. If I'm not wrong Max Mueller used this notation.
          • Piotr Gasiorowski
            ... From: Eris To: cybalist@egroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 10:26 PM Subject: Re: [tied] gwen etymology ... We have developed (or rather are still
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 4, 2000
            • 0 Attachment
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Eris
              Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 10:26 PM
              Subject: Re: [tied] gwen etymology

              >[Of diacritics:] Yes, I see.  I suppose I just don't write them out enough, at least when communicating via 'puter, to know how to do it.  (I usually write the marks and things by hand, or at least have the opportunity to print it out first...)
               
              We have developed (or rather are still developing) a rough eMail-friendly system. I'm looking forward to a time when Unicode (or some other future encoding standard) becomes really universal and renders all makeshift transcriptions obsolete.

              >I assumed the dot or carat or whatever the particular spelling convention was meant it was a fricative (I think...).  So they both mean that / the same thing?
               
               
              Within Slavic, <z.> and <z^> stand for the same "chronophoneme" (similar developments of the same Proto-Slavic sound, even if the actual phonetic realisation varies a little from language to language). Polish <s'> is pronounced exactly like Sanskrit <s'> -- a palatal sound par excellence -- but Russian <s'> is a palatal-coloured dental fricative. Sanskrit <s.> is roughly the same as Polish <sz>, Hungarian <s>, Czech <s^>, German <sch>, etc. The variety of diacritics and complex spellings used in different national versions of the Latin alphabet (or in the Romanised transliteration of languages using other scripts) is extremely confusing. Ideally, linguists should use unambiguous phonetic transcriptions rather than conventional spellings, but the phonetic alphabet is still difficult to use on e-groups ;)
               
              >Aaah.  Where do you people learn all of these little intricate things about so many languages?  =)  I know a few and can figure out many more, but knowing that an e would change to an i before a nasal is pretty deep!  Just a hobby to study all the various sound changes, or do you just happen to know Armenian?

               
              I don't speak Armenian, but I know enough about Armenian to do the job I'm paid for. I'm primarily a phonologist, and it is in the first place "these little intricate things" called sound changes that catch a phonologist's eye. If I read in a historical grammar of Armenian that IE *e > Armenian i before a nasal, it's like meeting an old friend in a new place. A similar change took place in Proto-Germanic, for example, and there are accents of English (Australian, Southern US) that do the very same thing nowadays (merging "pen" and "pin").

               
              >Interesting... Similar to Egyptian heiroglyphs?  (Or am I way off on that?  It's been awhile.)
               
               
              Hittite spellings are partly logographic, not unlike English "10th" for "tenth", where a conventional symbol is used for the numeral, but the suffix is written with ordinary letters. The Hittites used a number of Akkadian syllabic characters, e.g. SAL 'woman', LUGAL 'king', which could be compounded as SAL.LUGAL 'queen'.
               
              These Akkadian logograms encode Hittite words, and in many cases a purely Hittite spelling for them is also attested or indirectly reconstructable. For example, LUGAL-us (an Akkadian symbol plus a Hittite ending) almost certainly stands for *hassu-s 'king'. We are lucky to know the verb hassuwai- 'to rule, to be king', but despite there being thousands of LUGALs in the Hittite corpus, the overt spelling *hassus does not seem to occur even once.
               
              For 'woman' we have no direct Hittite representation either, but spellings like Nom.sg. SAL-za or Gen. SAL-nas are attested copiously. These have been compared with the cuneiform Luwian 'woman' word wana-/wanatti-/unatti- and the half-ideographic hieroglyphic Luwian WOMAN-nati-. A likely common prototype is Proto-Anatolian *gua:n-s, Gen. *guan-as < PIE *gWo:n (plus a secondary *-s), *gW(e)nos.
               
              Piotr
            • Piotr Gasiorowski
              I think I ve mentioned Slovak forms occasionally, though I agree our coverage is unequal and somewhat unfair. Even linguists can be biassed towards the
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 5, 2000
              • 0 Attachment
                I think I've mentioned Slovak forms occasionally, though I
                agree our coverage is unequal and somewhat unfair. Even
                linguists can be biassed towards the "favourite daughters"
                of each branch. If Sanskrit is used to represent Indic e.g.
                in etymological arguments, the choice is at least partly
                justified by the equation Sanskrit = literary Old Indic. But
                nothing justifies using standard Lithuanian as the sole
                representative of East Baltic (as if Latvian, let alone
                Lithunian dialects, didn't exist or had nothing of interest
                to contribute), or ignoring a major language like Slovak (or
                minor but fascinating ones like Sorbian and Kashubian) when
                discussing West Slavic. I'll do my best to mend my ways in
                this respect. Of course Polish is my first language, and the
                one about which I can offer first-hand information. If you
                can do the same for Slovak, we'll all be delighted. No
                dictionary can replace a native informant.

                BTW. My personal experience is that comprehensibility
                between Polish and Slovak (especially when complemented by
                some body language) is rather high both ways. Only ordering
                a meal may be a real problem, since many foodstuffs and
                dishes have unrelated or false-friendly names. I say
                "nales'nik" (pancake) and you say "palacinka" (pancake); I
                say "lody" (ice cream) and you say "zmrzlina", etc.; but
                fortunately we both pronounce "piwo/pivo" (beer) in the same
                way. :)

                Piotr


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Tomas Karasek" <TOMAS_KARASEK@...>
                To: <cybalist@egroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 12:24 PM
                Subject: Re: [tied] gwen etymology



                Do you know something about slovak language,I have joined
                recently but by reading of mails i did not see anybody
                writing about it.it makes me sad,cause there were mentioned
                mostly all slavic l. but slovak l. not.



                Tomas
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.