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Re: Mak

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  • Torsten
    ... I ll leave this here http://concordances.org/hebrew/4731.htm Torsten
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 2, 1936
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      > In the following, I will assume that IE *pa- = IE *ma- = IE *ba-. This
      > is of course unusual, I think Piotr would call it; I'll defend it by
      > saying that this not really IE, it's pre-IE, because:
      > 1) vocalisme a, mot populaire
      > 2) there's a nice pre-IE fit for it in Latin baculum, Basque makilla
      > "staff", Latin pax "peace", Christian Latin pax "kiss" (ie.
      > "blessing") and *some* of the jumble in
      > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/HbHpHg.html
      > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/KuhnText/08pauk-stechen.html
      > which would make the blessed macula, Palmer's hypothetical *max, in
      > reality pax, the result of being hit with a staff?
      >
      I'll leave this here
      http://concordances.org/hebrew/4731.htm


      Torsten
    • Rick McCallister
      ________________________________ From: Torsten To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2012 8:22 AM Subject: [tied]
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 2, 1936
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        From: Torsten <tgpedersen@...>
        To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2012 8:22 AM
        Subject: [tied] Re: Mak

         

        > In the following, I will assume that IE *pa- = IE *ma- = IE *ba-. This
        > is of course unusual, I think Piotr would call it; I'll defend it by
        > saying that this not really IE, it's pre-IE, because:
        > 1) vocalisme a, mot populaire
        > 2) there's a nice pre-IE fit for it in Latin baculum, Basque makilla
        > "staff", Latin pax "peace", Christian Latin pax "kiss" (ie.
        > "blessing") and *some* of the jumble in
        > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/HbHpHg.html
        > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/KuhnText/08pauk-stechen.html
        > which would make the blessed macula, Palmer's hypothetical *max, in
        > reality pax, the result of being hit with a staff?
        So, does that make the pope a Mac-Daddy? Does getting the mac on lead to world peace? ;>

        I'll leave this here
        http://concordances.org/hebrew/4731.htm

        Torsten



      • Torsten
        ... http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/HbHpHg.html http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/KuhnText/08pauk-stechen.html ... One tends to forget what the
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 2, 1936
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          >
          > > In the following, I will assume that IE *pa- = IE *ma- = IE *ba-.
          > > This is of course unusual, I think Piotr would call it; I'll
          > > defend it by saying that this not really IE, it's pre-IE, because:
          > > 1) vocalisme a, mot populaire
          > > 2) there's a nice pre-IE fit for it in Latin baculum, Basque
          > > makilla "staff", Latin pax "peace", Christian Latin pax "kiss"
          > > (ie. "blessing") and *some* of the jumble in
          http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/HbHpHg.html
          http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/KuhnText/08pauk-stechen.html
          > > which would make the blessed macula, Palmer's hypothetical *max,
          > > in reality pax, the result of being hit with a staff?

          > So, does that make the pope a Mac-Daddy?
          > Does getting the mac on lead to world peace? ;>

          One tends to forget what the good shepherd is really there for

          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/37181

          pa[']&n (what serves as fodder =) bait
          pag&[l.] fenced-in area

          pagut pick v.

          paha` thigh, stem
          side form pahi`- id.

          pahat chisel

          pahi` thigh, stem
          side paha` id.

          pakan fodder
          cf. ka|&n food,
          pan,an dish

          pakpak beat, beat wings
          side form pukpuk beat with tool; cf. pak crash! smack!

          paku`l nail

          pa(n,)k'an, piece of wood


          Pigs were used for sacrifice both in East Asia and Europe. If pigs came from East Asia (there is a genetic introgression in European pigs from East Asian pigs, which researches would really, really like to interpret as the result of imports of the last 200 years),
          http://www.genetics.org/content/154/4/1785.full
          either pig sacrifice was invented both places, or it came along with the animal itself. If so, terminology may have been borrowed.

          > I'll leave this here
          > http://concordances.org/hebrew/4731.htm

          note: 'of uncertain derivation', thus not native


          further:
          Ernout-Meillet
          'macellum, -ī (macellus Mart.10,96,9): marché;
          spécialisé dans le sens de "marché aux viandes, boucherie", et même "abattoir",
          cf. les gloses
          macellum: κpεοπωλει~ον; - ubi occiduntur animalia, carni-ficina, et macellare, i.e. occidere. Ancien (Plaute), usuel.
          Dérivés:
          macellārius; -a taberna;
          macellārius m.: marchand de comestibles; κpεoπώλης, lanista qui carnes ferro laniat;
          macellÄ"nsis (Inscr., Glos.);
          Macellīnus, sobriquet de l'empereur Opilius Macrinus.
          Le groupe est demeuré dans les l. romanes, cf. M.L. 5201, 5200; 5199 macellāre (dont l'astérique est à supprimer, le verbe étant attesté dans les gloses).
          Cf. aussi les emprunts germaniques
          m.h.a. Metzler,
          all. Metzel, Metzger (toutefois ce dernier peut provenir du latin médiéval: matiārius).
          Étym. pop. dans P.F.112,14, - dictum a Macello quodam, qui exercebat in Vrbe latrocinium; quo damnato censores Aemilius et Fuluius statuerunt ut in domo eius obsonia uenderentur.
          Varron, L.L.5,146, indique que le mot était usité à Lacédémone et en Ionie: ...antiquum macellum, ubi olerum copia; ea loca etiamnunc Lacaedaemonii uocant macellum, sed Iones [h]ostia <h>ortorum +macellotas <h>ortorum et castelli +macelli;
          cf. Goetz-Schoell ad loc.
          Emprunt ancien au grec. Hésychius donne μακέλα• φράγματα, δρύφακτoι; μάκελος• δρύφακτoς. Le mot grec est lui-même emprunté au sémitique.'

          Metzel
          http://woerterbuchnetz.de/DWB/?sigle=DWB&mode=Vernetzung&lemid=GM04521
          Metzger
          http://woerterbuchnetz.de/DWB/?sigle=DWB&mode=Vernetzung&lemid=GM04537



          Torsten
        • Torsten
          ... Romans sacrificed pigs at the conclusion of pacts after peace negotiations, as described by Livy s History 1,24,4
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 2, 1936
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            >
            > Pigs were used for sacrifice both in East Asia and Europe. If pigs
            > came from East Asia (there is a genetic introgression in European
            > pigs from East Asian pigs, which researches would really, really
            > like to interpret as the result of imports of the last 200 years),
            > http://www.genetics.org/content/154/4/1785.full
            > either pig sacrifice was invented both places, or it came along with
            > the animal itself. If so, terminology may have been borrowed.

            Romans sacrificed pigs at the conclusion of pacts after peace negotiations, as described by Livy's History 1,24,4
            http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=liv.%201.24&lang=original
            http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/livy/liv.1.shtml#24
            cf
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetial


            Torsten
          • Rick McCallister
            From: Torsten To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 6:05 AM Subject: [tied] Re: Mak   ... ****R With the
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 3, 1936
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              From: Torsten <tgpedersen@...>
              To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 6:05 AM
              Subject: [tied] Re: Mak

               

              >
              > Pigs were used for sacrifice both in East Asia and Europe. If pigs
              > came from East Asia (there is a genetic introgression in European
              > pigs from East Asian pigs, which researches would really, really
              > like to interpret as the result of imports of the last 200 years),
              > http://www.genetics.org/content/154/4/1785.full
              > either pig sacrifice was invented both places, or it came along with
              > the animal itself. If so, terminology may have been borrowed.
              ****R
              With the arrival of the Spaniards, pigs quickly substituted humans in sacrifices. Supposedly, they taste like human flesh. But, in any case, they grow quickly and don't require a lot of care. In much of the Third World, they roam the streets and compete with dogs for scraps and garbage.

              Romans sacrificed pigs at the conclusion of pacts after peace negotiations, as described by Livy's History 1,24,4
              http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=liv.%201.24&lang=original
              http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/livy/liv.1.shtml#24
              cf
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetial

              Torsten




            • Phoenix
              The Sumerians and later, the Hittites, left texts regarding pig sacrifices. Sumer: Eat not this flesh: food avoidances from prehistory to the present - Google
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 5, 1936
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                The Sumerians and later, the Hittites, left texts regarding pig sacrifices.

                Sumer:

                Eat not this flesh: food avoidances from prehistory to the present - Google Books Result

                books.google.com/books?isbn=029914254X...

                Hittites:

                Pigs at the Gate: Hittite Pig Sacrifice in Its Eastern ... - Emory University

                emory.academia.edu/.../Pigs_at_the_Gate_Hittite_Pig_Sacrifice_in_It...

                The Chinese have been sacrificing swine a long time also.  Excerpt:

                "Neolithic China

                Archaeological evidence from Neolithic China shows a remarkable amount of care and ritual with regard to burial practices. Characteristics of 5th millennium BCE burial practices include:

                • consistency of orientation and posture - the dead of the northwest were given a westerly orientation and those of the east an easterly one.
                • segregation of the dead into what appear to be kinship groupings
                • graveside ritual offerings of liquids, pig skulls, and pig jaws
                • collective secondary burial, in which the bones of up to 70 or 80 corpses were stripped of their flesh and reburied together"
                http://www.religionfacts.com/chinese_religion/history.htm

                Pig and boar sacrifices are probably older than barbeque sauce.

                Peace,
                Demetria Nanos, Chicago

                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > From: Torsten tgpedersen@...
                > To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 6:05 AM
                > Subject: [tied] Re: Mak
                >
                >
                >  
                >
                > >
                > > Pigs were used for sacrifice both in East Asia and Europe. If pigs
                > > came from East Asia (there is a genetic introgression in European
                > > pigs from East Asian pigs, which researches would really, really
                > > like to interpret as the result of imports of the last 200 years),
                > > http://www.genetics.org/content/154/4/1785.full
                > > either pig sacrifice was invented both places, or it came along with
                > > the animal itself. If so, terminology may have been borrowed.
                > ****R
                > With the arrival of the Spaniards, pigs quickly substituted humans in sacrifices. Supposedly, they taste like human flesh. But, in any case, they grow quickly and don't require a lot of care. In much of the Third World, they roam the streets and compete with dogs for scraps and garbage.
                >
                > Romans sacrificed pigs at the conclusion of pacts after peace negotiations, as described by Livy's History 1,24,4
                > http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=liv.%201.24&lang=original
                > http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/livy/liv.1.shtml#24
                > cf
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetial
                >
                > Torsten
                >
              • tgpedersen
                ... BTW, I was wondering if the original 3sg.perf.impersonal in *-to was identical to the future imp.(?) in *-to, cf. Russian dos^li! let s go! , lit. (we)
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 7, 1939
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                  > Benveniste, Indo-European Language and Society, p. 482, thinks macte
                  > may be a verbal adjective *mag-to-, parallel to *mag-no- (in
                  > magnus). On the other hand, I think that this is an old 3sg perf.
                  > pass. in the original impersonal sense: "There has been mak'd!",
                  > whatever *mak- means?
                  > In the following, I will assume that IE *pa- = IE *ma- = IE *ba-.
                  > This is of course unusual, I think Piotr would call it; I'll defend
                  > it by saying that this not really IE, it's pre-IE, because:
                  > 1) vocalisme a, mot populaire
                  > 2) there's a nice pre-IE fit for it in Latin baculum, Basque makilla
                  > "staff", Latin pax "peace", Christian Latin pax "kiss" (ie.
                  > "blessing") and *some* of the jumble in
                  > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/HbHpHg.html
                  > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/KuhnText/08pauk-stechen.html
                  > which would make the blessed macula, Palmer's hypothetical *max, in
                  > reality pax, the result of being hit with a staff?
                  >
                  > Benveniste notes that the denominative verb is originally used as
                  > mactare deum extis, ie exalt the god by means of sacrifices. Noting
                  > that the two non-derivative forms of the word that are known are
                  > mactus and macte, I propose that the Germanic preterito-presentic
                  > modal verb Germ mag, mochte is from *(mi-k) mak, *(mi-s?) mak-to,
                  > lit. me a blessing(permission), (to-)me a
                  > blessing(permission)-there-was.
                  > Further, I suspect the same is the case for all preterito-presentic
                  > Germanic verbs: the present is a noun (or adjective inflected for
                  > person), the preterite is a t-adjective (t-adjectives are not
                  > essentially ppp's, they just work there). Eg shall/soll etc with
                  > only nominal IE cognates and a proposed Vasconic cognate (Vennemann:
                  > Solduri "sworn brotherhood among the Aquitani"), eg. *(mi-k) skol,
                  > (mi-s sk.l-tó, lit. (me) debt/guilt, (to-me) debt/guilt-there-was.
                  >
                  > So, Latin mac-te is "a blessing(permission-to-go-ahead) has happened
                  > (to you)". The esto of macte esto marks a step on the way from
                  > macte > macte est > mactus est, the latter being a normal 3sg perf
                  > pass of a verb *mac- if such a verb had existed.
                  >
                  > Hope I'm making somewhat sense.

                  BTW, I was wondering if the original 3sg.perf.impersonal in *-to was identical to the future imp.(?) in *-to, cf.
                  Russian 'dos^li!' "let's go!", lit. "(we) left"
                  Da. 'vi er gået!' "let's go", lit. "we have left"
                  Germ. 'stillgestanden!' "halt!", lit. "stood still" (ppp)

                  It would certainly make sense with macte! "let here be mak!", ie. "get on with it!". I think PIE had *kt- -> *-xt- (suitably generalized), Latin among others generalized most ppp's back to -kt-, in the case of maxte!, there were no forms outside ppp/3sg.perf.impers/future imperative to generalize from, so it -> ma:te! -> mate!, now understood as a subjunctive for a verb back-formed as matar, which answers Rick's old question why that verb wasn't palatalized in Spanish like hecho was.


                  Torsten
                • tgpedersen
                  Palmer, The Latin Language, p. 66-67 Among other religious formulae preserved by later authors we may mention the prayers contained in Cato s instructions to
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 30 3:42 AM
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                    Palmer, The Latin Language, p. 66-67
                    "
                    Among other religious formulae preserved by later authors we may
                    mention the prayers contained in Cato's instructions to the farmers
                    (de ag. cult. 132. 1 and 134. 3). The rites described belong to the
                    oldest stratum in Roman religion and among the prayers the most
                    striking in phraseology are those addressed to Jupiter Dapalis and
                    Janus when making an offering of a strues, a fertum, or wine. For
                    example 'postea Iano vinum dato sic: "Iane pater uti te strue
                    ommovenda bonas preces precatus sum, eiusdem rei ergo macte vino
                    inferio esto." postea Iovi sic: "Iuppiter, macte isto ferto esto,
                    macte vino inferio esto."' There is little doubt that we have here
                    'unquestionably genuine old Roman prayers, taken from the books of the
                    pontifices and preserved in their original state word for word'(Ward
                    Fowler, Religious Experience of the Roman People, p. 182). A
                    constantly recurring technical term in these prayers is the mysterious
                    word macte. The meaning of this term; doubtless of great antiquity,
                    was only vaguely understood even in the Republican period and had
                    degenerated into a mere exclamation of congratulation, e.g. macte
                    virtute 'bravo!'. Popular etymology connected macte, mactus with
                    magnus and it was explained as magis auctus. This explanation still
                    enjoys some vogue today, mactus being regarded as the participle of a
                    verb *mago. However, the series of words mactus, mactare, magmentum
                    when put in parallel with aptus, aptare, ammentum from apio suggest
                    that the basic verb is *macio. Other morphological parallels such as
                    lacio from lax, opio from ops make it likely that macio is similarly
                    connected with a noun *max of which macula 'spot' is the diminutive.
                    The meaning 'sprinkle' thus elucidated for macio, mactus, mactare as
                    verbs applying to a concrete ritual act is borne out by the contexts
                    in which these words are attested. For instance Servius on Aen. 9.641
                    writes:
                    Macte, magis aucte, adfecte gloria. Et est sermo tractus a sacris:
                    quotiens enim aut tus aut vinum super victimam fundebatur, dicebant
                    'mactus est taurus vino vel ture'.
                    There is nothing surprising in the semantic development of a word
                    denoting originally a special ritual act into the more generalized
                    meanings to 'sacrifice', 'worship', 'bless'. Of the numerous examples
                    from many languages it suffices to mention one from Latin — immolare
                    originally 'to sprinkle sacrificial meal on the victim'. But perhaps
                    the most striking parallel is provided by our English word 'bless',
                    which may be used in some contexts to translate macte and mactare.
                    Bless goes back (see O.E.D. sub voc.) to Teutonic *blôdisôjan a
                    derivative of *blôdo 'blood'. Originally meaning 'to sprinkle with
                    sacrificial blood', it had so far progressed in meaning that at the
                    time of the English conversion it was chosen to render Lat. benedicere
                    with all its associations of 'worship, praise, bless God, invoke
                    blessings, bless a deity', etc. In view of the use of macte in rites
                    addressed to Ianus the remarks of O.E.D. on the original meaning of
                    OE. bloedsian are of particular interest:
                    Original meaning (prob.) to make 'sacred' or 'holy' with blood; to
                    consecrate by some sacrificial rite which was held to render a thing
                    inviolable from profane use of men and evil influence of men or demons
                    (the streaking of the lintel and door-post with blood, Exod. xii. 23,
                    to mark them as holy to the Lord and inviolable by the destroying
                    angel, was apparently the kind of idea expressed by bloedsian in
                    pre-Christian times).
                    There is thus general agreement that the ceremonial sprinkling
                    described as mactare was likewise a rite which transferred the victim
                    from the sphere of the profane to the sacred. Thus a pig so treated is
                    described by Varro as mola mactatus (Men. 2, Bue.), 'blessed with
                    (consecrating) meal'.
                    "

                    Benveniste, Indo-European Language and Society, p. 482, thinks macte
                    may be a verbal adjective *mag-to-, parallel to *mag-no- (in magnus).
                    On the other hand, I think that this is an old 3sg perf. pass. in the
                    original impersonal sense: "There has been mak'd!", whatever *mak- means?
                    In the following, I will assume that IE *pa- = IE *ma- = IE *ba-. This
                    is of course unusual, I think Piotr would call it; I'll defend it by
                    saying that this not really IE, it's pre-IE, because:
                    1) vocalisme a, mot populaire
                    2) there's a nice pre-IE fit for it in Latin baculum, Basque makilla
                    "staff", Latin pax "peace", Christian Latin pax "kiss" (ie.
                    "blessing") and *some* of the jumble in
                    http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/HbHpHg.html
                    http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/KuhnText/08pauk-stechen.html
                    which would make the blessed macula, Palmer's hypothetical *max, in
                    reality pax, the result of being hit with a staff?

                    Benveniste notes that the denominative verb is originally used as
                    mactare deum extis, ie exalt the god by means of sacrifices. Noting
                    that the two non-derivative forms of the word that are known are
                    mactus and macte, I propose that the Germanic preterito-presentic
                    modal verb Germ mag, mochte is from *(mi-k) mak, *(mi-s?) mak-to, lit.
                    me a blessing(permission), (to-)me a blessing(permission)-there-was.
                    Further, I suspect the same is the case for all preterito-presentic
                    Germanic verbs: the present is a noun (or adjective inflected for
                    person), the preterite is a t-adjective (t-adjectives are not
                    essentially ppp's, they just work there). Eg shall/soll etc with only
                    nominal IE cognates and a proposed Vasconic cognate (Vennemann:
                    Solduri "sworn brotherhood among the Aquitani"), eg. *(mi-k) skol,
                    (mi-s sk.l-tó, lit. (me) debt/guilt, (to-me) debt/guilt-there-was.

                    So, Latin mac-te is "a blessing(permission-to-go-ahead) has happened
                    (to you)". The esto of macte esto marks a step on the way from macte >
                    macte est > mactus est, the latter being a normal 3sg perf pass of a
                    verb *mac- if such a verb had existed.

                    Hope I'm making somewhat sense.


                    Torsten
                  • tgpedersen
                    ... Cf. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/48612 Torsten
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 30 4:27 AM
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                      > Benveniste notes that the denominative verb is originally used as
                      > mactare deum extis, ie exalt the god by means of sacrifices. Noting
                      > that the two non-derivative forms of the word that are known are
                      > mactus and macte, I propose that the Germanic preterito-presentic
                      > modal verb Germ mag, mochte is from *(mi-k) mak, *(mi-s?) mak-to,
                      > lit. me a blessing(permission), (to-)me a blessing(permission)-
                      > there-was. Further, I suspect the same is the case for all
                      > preterito-presentic Germanic verbs: the present is a noun (or
                      > adjective inflected for person), the preterite is a t-adjective
                      > (t-adjectives are not essentially ppp's, they just work there). Eg
                      > shall/soll etc with only nominal IE cognates and a proposed Vasconic
                      > cognate (Vennemann: Solduri "sworn brotherhood among the Aquitani"),
                      > eg. *(mi-k) skol, (mi-s sk.l-tó, lit. (me) debt/guilt, (to-me)
                      > debt/guilt-there-was.
                      >
                      > So, Latin mac-te is "a blessing(permission-to-go-ahead) has happened
                      > (to you)". The esto of macte esto marks a step on the way from macte >
                      > macte est > mactus est, the latter being a normal 3sg perf pass of a
                      > verb *mac- if such a verb had existed.
                      >
                      > Hope I'm making somewhat sense.

                      Cf.
                      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/48612


                      Torsten
                      >
                    • Rick McCallister
                      This prompts a question Spanish matar to kill is usually linked to Arabic mwt to die, death but there s also Italian mazzare to kill , which looks more
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 30 6:53 AM
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                        This prompts a question
                        Spanish matar "to kill" is usually linked to Arabic
                        mwt "to die, death"
                        but there's also Italian mazzare "to kill" , which
                        looks more like mactare --unless it's Southern
                        "dialect" from Spanish (I only know the word from
                        mafia movies)
                        Any ideas?


                        --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > > Benveniste notes that the denominative verb is
                        > originally used as
                        > > mactare deum extis, ie exalt the god by means of
                        > sacrifices. Noting
                        > > that the two non-derivative forms of the word that
                        > are known are
                        > > mactus and macte, I propose that the Germanic
                        > preterito-presentic
                        > > modal verb Germ mag, mochte is from *(mi-k) mak,
                        > *(mi-s?) mak-to,
                        > > lit. me a blessing(permission), (to-)me a
                        > blessing(permission)-
                        > > there-was. Further, I suspect the same is the case
                        > for all
                        > > preterito-presentic Germanic verbs: the present is
                        > a noun (or
                        > > adjective inflected for person), the preterite is
                        > a t-adjective
                        > > (t-adjectives are not essentially ppp's, they just
                        > work there). Eg
                        > > shall/soll etc with only nominal IE cognates and a
                        > proposed Vasconic
                        > > cognate (Vennemann: Solduri "sworn brotherhood
                        > among the Aquitani"),
                        > > eg. *(mi-k) skol, (mi-s sk.l-tó, lit. (me)
                        > debt/guilt, (to-me)
                        > > debt/guilt-there-was.
                        > >
                        > > So, Latin mac-te is "a
                        > blessing(permission-to-go-ahead) has happened
                        > > (to you)". The esto of macte esto marks a step on
                        > the way from macte >
                        > > macte est > mactus est, the latter being a normal
                        > 3sg perf pass of a
                        > > verb *mac- if such a verb had existed.
                        > >
                        > > Hope I'm making somewhat sense.
                        >
                        > Cf.
                        >
                        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/48612
                        >
                        >
                        > Torsten
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >




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                      • tgpedersen
                        ... Ernout-Meillet: Macta:re, interprété comme magis aucta:re, est devenu dans la langue commune synonyme de affίcere, do:na:re et s est dit
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 30 9:34 AM
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                          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > This prompts a question
                          > Spanish matar "to kill" is usually linked to Arabic
                          > mwt "to die, death"
                          > but there's also Italian mazzare "to kill" , which
                          > looks more like mactare --unless it's Southern
                          > "dialect" from Spanish (I only know the word from
                          > mafia movies)
                          > Any ideas?
                          >

                          Ernout-Meillet:
                          "
                          Macta:re, interprété comme magis aucta:re, est devenu dans la langue
                          commune synonyme de affίcere, do:na:re et s'est dit indifféremment en
                          bonne ou en mauvaise part: macta:re hono:re, triumpho:, comme macta:re
                          malo:-, infortu:nio:; cf. Enn. Sc. 373 qui illum di deaeque magno
                          mactassint malo. Ces expressions appartiennent à la 1. de l'époque
                          républicaine; à l'époque impériale, le verbe ne se rencontre plus
                          guère que dans la 1. poétique, avec le sens de "sacrifier, immoler";
                          et plus généralement "tuer, détruire".
                          "

                          Benveniste, Indo-European Language and Society, p 483
                          "
                          The oldest use mactare deum extis shows the name of the god in the
                          accusative and the name of the sacrifice in the instrumental. It is,
                          therefore, to make the god bigger, to exalt him, and at the same time
                          to increase his strength by the offering. Then, by a change of
                          construction analogous to that known from sacrare, the expression
                          mactare victimam was coined 'to offer a victim in sacrifice'. By a
                          further development we have mactare 'put to death, slaughter' which is
                          preserved in the Spanish matar 'to kill'.
                          "


                          Torsten
                        • tgpedersen
                          ... I would be nice to dismiss the above as fanciful coincidence. But, alas! Karlgren: Grammata Serica Recensa 40 f-g: OC *må- / EMC ma- / ma sacrifice in
                          Message 12 of 13 , May 13, 1941
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                            > Benveniste, Indo-European Language and Society, p. 482, thinks macte
                            > may be a verbal adjective *mag-to-, parallel to *mag-no- (in
                            > magnus). On the other hand, I think that this is an old 3sg perf.
                            > pass. in the original impersonal sense: "There has been mak'd!",
                            > whatever *mak- means? In the following, I will assume that IE *pa- =
                            > IE *ma- = IE *ba-. This is of course unusual, I think Piotr would
                            > call it; I'll defend it by saying that this not really IE, it's
                            > pre-IE, because:
                            > 1) vocalisme a, mot populaire
                            > 2) there's a nice pre-IE fit for it in Latin baculum, Basque makilla
                            > "staff", Latin pax "peace", Christian Latin pax "kiss" (ie.
                            > "blessing") and *some* of the jumble in
                            > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/HbHpHg.html
                            > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/KuhnText/08pauk-stechen.html
                            > which would make the blessed macula, Palmer's hypothetical *max, in
                            > reality pax, the result of being hit with a staff?

                            I would be nice to dismiss the above as fanciful coincidence.
                            But, alas!


                            Karlgren: Grammata Serica Recensa
                            40 f-g: OC *må- / EMC ma- / ma
                            "sacrifice in the open, in the camping place" (Shi:);
                            40 g is pre-Han
                            771 d-e OC *pâk / EMC pâk / po "beat"
                            782 m-n OC *p'ak / EMC p'ak / p'o "to beat"
                            (OC Old Chinese, Early Chou,
                            EMC Early Middle Chinese, around 600 CE)

                            I wonder if sacrificial technology had its origin near China?


                            Torsten
                          • tgpedersen
                            ... Vennemann Some West Indo-European words of uncertain origin, in Europa Vasconica - Europa Semitica, p. 351 Andromáke: may be a compound Andro + máke:
                            Message 13 of 13 , May 25, 1941
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                              >
                              > Karlgren: Grammata Serica Recensa
                              > 40 f-g: OC *må- / EMC ma- / ma
                              > "sacrifice in the open, in the camping place" (Shi:);
                              > 40 g is pre-Han
                              > 771 d-e OC *pâk / EMC pâk / po "beat"
                              > 782 m-n OC *p'ak / EMC p'ak / p'o "to beat"
                              > (OC Old Chinese, Early Chou,
                              > EMC Early Middle Chinese, around 600 CE)
                              >
                              > I wonder if sacrificial technology had its origin near China?

                              Vennemann
                              Some West Indo-European words of uncertain origin, in
                              Europa Vasconica - Europa Semitica, p. 351
                              "
                              Andromáke: may be a compound Andro + máke: which owes its specific
                              form to the popular etymological reinterpretation as "men's fight". I
                              analyze it on the model of Andromeda and Andriosoi as Vasc. [887
                              +Andera+mak-E "blissful woman", where E was some adjectival
                              termination, perhaps -ar. Gk. mákar, máka:r 'blissful' has a unique
                              adjectival termination -ar and no etymology (Frisk). It is therefore
                              natural to assume it to be a loan-word. Basque has no adjective of a
                              similar meaning; but -Vr is the termination of several adjectives of
                              that language, and -ar and -ara are adjectival suffixes (de Azkue,
                              Löpelmann) whose antiquity is, however, not clear in all cases. Thus
                              Gk. makar, maka:r 'blissful' may reflect a Vasconic loan-word +mak-ar-
                              'blissful'. The root may be the same in Lat. mactus, -a, -um 'praised,
                              celebrated, honored with gifts', used almost exclusively as vocative
                              macte, originally in sacral language in the collocation macte [dape,
                              vi:no:] esto:; further as well-wish 'hail to thee!, good luck!'
                              (Walde/Hofmann). Perhaps a Pre-Latin well-wish +makte! (+mak-te!)
                              'Your bliss!' (formed with a borrowed nominal +mak! 'Hail!' and the
                              enclitic oblique 2nd person singular pronoun) was in time reanalyzed
                              as an adjectival vocative macte! (mact-e!) 'Oh blissful one!', which
                              became the analogical basis of mactus, macti: etc. and further of
                              macta, mactum etc.
                              "

                              Löpelmann
                              Etymologisches Wörterbuch der baskischen Sprache
                              "
                              maka 2. Beule, Quetschung, blauer Hautfleck : -dura Quetschung, Beule,
                              blutunterlaufene Stelle, Einschnitt, angebissene Stelle, Druckstelle
                              (Frucht);
                              -tu verbeulen, anknabbern (Frucht), sich Beulen und blaue Flecke
                              zuziehen, mit der Hand drohen, so tun, als wolle man zuschlagen.
                              § rom., vgl.
                              sp. maca Druckfleck (Obst), Fehler, Makel,
                              kal. maca, macadura Quetschfleck, Quetschung, Verletzung, dazu
                              macar quetschen, knutschen,
                              sp. macarse anfaulen, usw.
                              aus vlat. *macca:re für lat. maculare beflecken (: macula Fleck, Mal,
                              Makel).
                              "

                              except I think the direction of borrowing is from Vasconic into
                              (popular) Latin.

                              bake "peace" is thought to be a loan Latin -> Basque, but I suspect
                              again here it's from Vasconic.


                              Torsten
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