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  • tgpedersen
    Palmer, The Latin Language, p. 66-67 Among other religious formulae preserved by later authors we may mention the prayers contained in Cato s instructions to
    Message 1 of 13 , May 31, 2007
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      Palmer, The Latin Language, p. 66-67
      "
      Among other religious formulae preserved by later authors we may
      mention the prayers contained in Cato's instructions to the farmers
      (de ag. cult. 132. 1 and 134. 3). The rites described belong to the
      oldest stratum in Roman religion and among the prayers the most
      striking in phraseology are those addressed to Jupiter Dapalis and
      Janus when making an offering of a strues, a fertum, or wine. For
      example 'postea Iano vinum dato sic: "Iane pater uti te strue
      ommovenda bonas preces precatus sum, eiusdem rei ergo macte vino
      inferio esto." postea Iovi sic: "Iuppiter, macte isto ferto esto,
      macte vino inferio esto."' There is little doubt that we have here
      'unquestionably genuine old Roman prayers, taken from the books of the
      pontifices and preserved in their original state word for word'(Ward
      Fowler, Religious Experience of the Roman People, p. 182). A
      constantly recurring technical term in these prayers is the mysterious
      word macte. The meaning of this term; doubtless of great antiquity,
      was only vaguely understood even in the Republican period and had
      degenerated into a mere exclamation of congratulation, e.g. macte
      virtute 'bravo!'. Popular etymology connected macte, mactus with
      magnus and it was explained as magis auctus. This explanation still
      enjoys some vogue today, mactus being regarded as the participle of a
      verb *mago. However, the series of words mactus, mactare, magmentum
      when put in parallel with aptus, aptare, ammentum from apio suggest
      that the basic verb is *macio. Other morphological parallels such as
      lacio from lax, opio from ops make it likely that macio is similarly
      connected with a noun *max of which macula 'spot' is the diminutive.
      The meaning 'sprinkle' thus elucidated for macio, mactus, mactare as
      verbs applying to a concrete ritual act is borne out by the contexts
      in which these words are attested. For instance Servius on Aen. 9.641
      writes:
      Macte, magis aucte, adfecte gloria. Et est sermo tractus a sacris:
      quotiens enim aut tus aut vinum super victimam fundebatur, dicebant
      'mactus est taurus vino vel ture'.
      There is nothing surprising in the semantic development of a word
      denoting originally a special ritual act into the more generalized
      meanings to 'sacrifice', 'worship', 'bless'. Of the numerous examples
      from many languages it suffices to mention one from Latin — immolare
      originally 'to sprinkle sacrificial meal on the victim'. But perhaps
      the most striking parallel is provided by our English word 'bless',
      which may be used in some contexts to translate macte and mactare.
      Bless goes back (see O.E.D. sub voc.) to Teutonic *blôdisôjan a
      derivative of *blôdo 'blood'. Originally meaning 'to sprinkle with
      sacrificial blood', it had so far progressed in meaning that at the
      time of the English conversion it was chosen to render Lat. benedicere
      with all its associations of 'worship, praise, bless God, invoke
      blessings, bless a deity', etc. In view of the use of macte in rites
      addressed to Ianus the remarks of O.E.D. on the original meaning of
      OE. bloedsian are of particular interest:
      Original meaning (prob.) to make 'sacred' or 'holy' with blood; to
      consecrate by some sacrificial rite which was held to render a thing
      inviolable from profane use of men and evil influence of men or demons
      (the streaking of the lintel and door-post with blood, Exod. xii. 23,
      to mark them as holy to the Lord and inviolable by the destroying
      angel, was apparently the kind of idea expressed by bloedsian in
      pre-Christian times).
      There is thus general agreement that the ceremonial sprinkling
      described as mactare was likewise a rite which transferred the victim
      from the sphere of the profane to the sacred. Thus a pig so treated is
      described by Varro as mola mactatus (Men. 2, Bue.), 'blessed with
      (consecrating) meal'.
      "

      Benveniste, Indo-European Language and Society, p. 482, thinks macte
      may be a verbal adjective *mag-to-, parallel to *mag-no- (in magnus).
      On the other hand, I think that this is an old 3sg perf. pass. in the
      original impersonal sense: "There has been mak'd!", whatever *mak- means?
      In the following, I will assume that IE *pa- = IE *ma- = IE *ba-. This
      is of course unusual, I think Piotr would call it; I'll defend it by
      saying that this not really IE, it's pre-IE, because:
      1) vocalisme a, mot populaire
      2) there's a nice pre-IE fit for it in Latin baculum, Basque makilla
      "staff", Latin pax "peace", Christian Latin pax "kiss" (ie.
      "blessing") and *some* of the jumble in
      http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/HbHpHg.html
      http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/KuhnText/08pauk-stechen.html
      which would make the blessed macula, Palmer's hypothetical *max, in
      reality pax, the result of being hit with a staff?

      Benveniste notes that the denominative verb is originally used as
      mactare deum extis, ie exalt the god by means of sacrifices. Noting
      that the two non-derivative forms of the word that are known are
      mactus and macte, I propose that the Germanic preterito-presentic
      modal verb Germ mag, mochte is from *(mi-k) mak, *(mi-s?) mak-to, lit.
      me a blessing(permission), (to-)me a blessing(permission)-there-was.
      Further, I suspect the same is the case for all preterito-presentic
      Germanic verbs: the present is a noun (or adjective inflected for
      person), the preterite is a t-adjective (t-adjectives are not
      essentially ppp's, they just work there). Eg shall/soll etc with only
      nominal IE cognates and a proposed Vasconic cognate (Vennemann:
      Solduri "sworn brotherhood among the Aquitani"), eg. *(mi-k) skol,
      (mi-s sk.l-tó, lit. (me) debt/guilt, (to-me) debt/guilt-there-was.

      So, Latin mac-te is "a blessing(permission-to-go-ahead) has happened
      (to you)". The esto of macte esto marks a step on the way from macte >
      macte est > mactus est, the latter being a normal 3sg perf pass of a
      verb *mac- if such a verb had existed.

      Hope I'm making somewhat sense.


      Torsten
    • tgpedersen
      ... Cf. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/48612 Torsten
      Message 2 of 13 , May 31, 2007
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        > Benveniste notes that the denominative verb is originally used as
        > mactare deum extis, ie exalt the god by means of sacrifices. Noting
        > that the two non-derivative forms of the word that are known are
        > mactus and macte, I propose that the Germanic preterito-presentic
        > modal verb Germ mag, mochte is from *(mi-k) mak, *(mi-s?) mak-to,
        > lit. me a blessing(permission), (to-)me a blessing(permission)-
        > there-was. Further, I suspect the same is the case for all
        > preterito-presentic Germanic verbs: the present is a noun (or
        > adjective inflected for person), the preterite is a t-adjective
        > (t-adjectives are not essentially ppp's, they just work there). Eg
        > shall/soll etc with only nominal IE cognates and a proposed Vasconic
        > cognate (Vennemann: Solduri "sworn brotherhood among the Aquitani"),
        > eg. *(mi-k) skol, (mi-s sk.l-tó, lit. (me) debt/guilt, (to-me)
        > debt/guilt-there-was.
        >
        > So, Latin mac-te is "a blessing(permission-to-go-ahead) has happened
        > (to you)". The esto of macte esto marks a step on the way from macte >
        > macte est > mactus est, the latter being a normal 3sg perf pass of a
        > verb *mac- if such a verb had existed.
        >
        > Hope I'm making somewhat sense.

        Cf.
        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/48612


        Torsten
        >
      • Rick McCallister
        This prompts a question Spanish matar to kill is usually linked to Arabic mwt to die, death but there s also Italian mazzare to kill , which looks more
        Message 3 of 13 , May 31, 2007
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          This prompts a question
          Spanish matar "to kill" is usually linked to Arabic
          mwt "to die, death"
          but there's also Italian mazzare "to kill" , which
          looks more like mactare --unless it's Southern
          "dialect" from Spanish (I only know the word from
          mafia movies)
          Any ideas?


          --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

          >
          > > Benveniste notes that the denominative verb is
          > originally used as
          > > mactare deum extis, ie exalt the god by means of
          > sacrifices. Noting
          > > that the two non-derivative forms of the word that
          > are known are
          > > mactus and macte, I propose that the Germanic
          > preterito-presentic
          > > modal verb Germ mag, mochte is from *(mi-k) mak,
          > *(mi-s?) mak-to,
          > > lit. me a blessing(permission), (to-)me a
          > blessing(permission)-
          > > there-was. Further, I suspect the same is the case
          > for all
          > > preterito-presentic Germanic verbs: the present is
          > a noun (or
          > > adjective inflected for person), the preterite is
          > a t-adjective
          > > (t-adjectives are not essentially ppp's, they just
          > work there). Eg
          > > shall/soll etc with only nominal IE cognates and a
          > proposed Vasconic
          > > cognate (Vennemann: Solduri "sworn brotherhood
          > among the Aquitani"),
          > > eg. *(mi-k) skol, (mi-s sk.l-tó, lit. (me)
          > debt/guilt, (to-me)
          > > debt/guilt-there-was.
          > >
          > > So, Latin mac-te is "a
          > blessing(permission-to-go-ahead) has happened
          > > (to you)". The esto of macte esto marks a step on
          > the way from macte >
          > > macte est > mactus est, the latter being a normal
          > 3sg perf pass of a
          > > verb *mac- if such a verb had existed.
          > >
          > > Hope I'm making somewhat sense.
          >
          > Cf.
          >
          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/48612
          >
          >
          > Torsten
          > >
          >
          >
          >




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        • tgpedersen
          ... Ernout-Meillet: Macta:re, interprété comme magis aucta:re, est devenu dans la langue commune synonyme de affίcere, do:na:re et s est dit
          Message 4 of 13 , May 31, 2007
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            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:
            >
            > This prompts a question
            > Spanish matar "to kill" is usually linked to Arabic
            > mwt "to die, death"
            > but there's also Italian mazzare "to kill" , which
            > looks more like mactare --unless it's Southern
            > "dialect" from Spanish (I only know the word from
            > mafia movies)
            > Any ideas?
            >

            Ernout-Meillet:
            "
            Macta:re, interprété comme magis aucta:re, est devenu dans la langue
            commune synonyme de affίcere, do:na:re et s'est dit indifféremment en
            bonne ou en mauvaise part: macta:re hono:re, triumpho:, comme macta:re
            malo:-, infortu:nio:; cf. Enn. Sc. 373 qui illum di deaeque magno
            mactassint malo. Ces expressions appartiennent à la 1. de l'époque
            républicaine; à l'époque impériale, le verbe ne se rencontre plus
            guère que dans la 1. poétique, avec le sens de "sacrifier, immoler";
            et plus généralement "tuer, détruire".
            "

            Benveniste, Indo-European Language and Society, p 483
            "
            The oldest use mactare deum extis shows the name of the god in the
            accusative and the name of the sacrifice in the instrumental. It is,
            therefore, to make the god bigger, to exalt him, and at the same time
            to increase his strength by the offering. Then, by a change of
            construction analogous to that known from sacrare, the expression
            mactare victimam was coined 'to offer a victim in sacrifice'. By a
            further development we have mactare 'put to death, slaughter' which is
            preserved in the Spanish matar 'to kill'.
            "


            Torsten
          • tgpedersen
            ... I would be nice to dismiss the above as fanciful coincidence. But, alas! Karlgren: Grammata Serica Recensa 40 f-g: OC *må- / EMC ma- / ma sacrifice in
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 13, 2007
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              > Benveniste, Indo-European Language and Society, p. 482, thinks macte
              > may be a verbal adjective *mag-to-, parallel to *mag-no- (in
              > magnus). On the other hand, I think that this is an old 3sg perf.
              > pass. in the original impersonal sense: "There has been mak'd!",
              > whatever *mak- means? In the following, I will assume that IE *pa- =
              > IE *ma- = IE *ba-. This is of course unusual, I think Piotr would
              > call it; I'll defend it by saying that this not really IE, it's
              > pre-IE, because:
              > 1) vocalisme a, mot populaire
              > 2) there's a nice pre-IE fit for it in Latin baculum, Basque makilla
              > "staff", Latin pax "peace", Christian Latin pax "kiss" (ie.
              > "blessing") and *some* of the jumble in
              > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/HbHpHg.html
              > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/KuhnText/08pauk-stechen.html
              > which would make the blessed macula, Palmer's hypothetical *max, in
              > reality pax, the result of being hit with a staff?

              I would be nice to dismiss the above as fanciful coincidence.
              But, alas!


              Karlgren: Grammata Serica Recensa
              40 f-g: OC *må- / EMC ma- / ma
              "sacrifice in the open, in the camping place" (Shi:);
              40 g is pre-Han
              771 d-e OC *pâk / EMC pâk / po "beat"
              782 m-n OC *p'ak / EMC p'ak / p'o "to beat"
              (OC Old Chinese, Early Chou,
              EMC Early Middle Chinese, around 600 CE)

              I wonder if sacrificial technology had its origin near China?


              Torsten
            • tgpedersen
              ... Vennemann Some West Indo-European words of uncertain origin, in Europa Vasconica - Europa Semitica, p. 351 Andromáke: may be a compound Andro + máke:
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 25, 2007
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                >
                > Karlgren: Grammata Serica Recensa
                > 40 f-g: OC *må- / EMC ma- / ma
                > "sacrifice in the open, in the camping place" (Shi:);
                > 40 g is pre-Han
                > 771 d-e OC *pâk / EMC pâk / po "beat"
                > 782 m-n OC *p'ak / EMC p'ak / p'o "to beat"
                > (OC Old Chinese, Early Chou,
                > EMC Early Middle Chinese, around 600 CE)
                >
                > I wonder if sacrificial technology had its origin near China?

                Vennemann
                Some West Indo-European words of uncertain origin, in
                Europa Vasconica - Europa Semitica, p. 351
                "
                Andromáke: may be a compound Andro + máke: which owes its specific
                form to the popular etymological reinterpretation as "men's fight". I
                analyze it on the model of Andromeda and Andriosoi as Vasc. [887
                +Andera+mak-E "blissful woman", where E was some adjectival
                termination, perhaps -ar. Gk. mákar, máka:r 'blissful' has a unique
                adjectival termination -ar and no etymology (Frisk). It is therefore
                natural to assume it to be a loan-word. Basque has no adjective of a
                similar meaning; but -Vr is the termination of several adjectives of
                that language, and -ar and -ara are adjectival suffixes (de Azkue,
                Löpelmann) whose antiquity is, however, not clear in all cases. Thus
                Gk. makar, maka:r 'blissful' may reflect a Vasconic loan-word +mak-ar-
                'blissful'. The root may be the same in Lat. mactus, -a, -um 'praised,
                celebrated, honored with gifts', used almost exclusively as vocative
                macte, originally in sacral language in the collocation macte [dape,
                vi:no:] esto:; further as well-wish 'hail to thee!, good luck!'
                (Walde/Hofmann). Perhaps a Pre-Latin well-wish +makte! (+mak-te!)
                'Your bliss!' (formed with a borrowed nominal +mak! 'Hail!' and the
                enclitic oblique 2nd person singular pronoun) was in time reanalyzed
                as an adjectival vocative macte! (mact-e!) 'Oh blissful one!', which
                became the analogical basis of mactus, macti: etc. and further of
                macta, mactum etc.
                "

                Löpelmann
                Etymologisches Wörterbuch der baskischen Sprache
                "
                maka 2. Beule, Quetschung, blauer Hautfleck : -dura Quetschung, Beule,
                blutunterlaufene Stelle, Einschnitt, angebissene Stelle, Druckstelle
                (Frucht);
                -tu verbeulen, anknabbern (Frucht), sich Beulen und blaue Flecke
                zuziehen, mit der Hand drohen, so tun, als wolle man zuschlagen.
                § rom., vgl.
                sp. maca Druckfleck (Obst), Fehler, Makel,
                kal. maca, macadura Quetschfleck, Quetschung, Verletzung, dazu
                macar quetschen, knutschen,
                sp. macarse anfaulen, usw.
                aus vlat. *macca:re für lat. maculare beflecken (: macula Fleck, Mal,
                Makel).
                "

                except I think the direction of borrowing is from Vasconic into
                (popular) Latin.

                bake "peace" is thought to be a loan Latin -> Basque, but I suspect
                again here it's from Vasconic.


                Torsten
              • tgpedersen
                ... BTW, I was wondering if the original 3sg.perf.impersonal in *-to was identical to the future imp.(?) in *-to, cf. Russian dos^li! let s go! , lit. (we)
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 6 2:54 PM
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                  > Benveniste, Indo-European Language and Society, p. 482, thinks macte
                  > may be a verbal adjective *mag-to-, parallel to *mag-no- (in
                  > magnus). On the other hand, I think that this is an old 3sg perf.
                  > pass. in the original impersonal sense: "There has been mak'd!",
                  > whatever *mak- means?
                  > In the following, I will assume that IE *pa- = IE *ma- = IE *ba-.
                  > This is of course unusual, I think Piotr would call it; I'll defend
                  > it by saying that this not really IE, it's pre-IE, because:
                  > 1) vocalisme a, mot populaire
                  > 2) there's a nice pre-IE fit for it in Latin baculum, Basque makilla
                  > "staff", Latin pax "peace", Christian Latin pax "kiss" (ie.
                  > "blessing") and *some* of the jumble in
                  > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/HbHpHg.html
                  > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/KuhnText/08pauk-stechen.html
                  > which would make the blessed macula, Palmer's hypothetical *max, in
                  > reality pax, the result of being hit with a staff?
                  >
                  > Benveniste notes that the denominative verb is originally used as
                  > mactare deum extis, ie exalt the god by means of sacrifices. Noting
                  > that the two non-derivative forms of the word that are known are
                  > mactus and macte, I propose that the Germanic preterito-presentic
                  > modal verb Germ mag, mochte is from *(mi-k) mak, *(mi-s?) mak-to,
                  > lit. me a blessing(permission), (to-)me a
                  > blessing(permission)-there-was.
                  > Further, I suspect the same is the case for all preterito-presentic
                  > Germanic verbs: the present is a noun (or adjective inflected for
                  > person), the preterite is a t-adjective (t-adjectives are not
                  > essentially ppp's, they just work there). Eg shall/soll etc with
                  > only nominal IE cognates and a proposed Vasconic cognate (Vennemann:
                  > Solduri "sworn brotherhood among the Aquitani"), eg. *(mi-k) skol,
                  > (mi-s sk.l-tó, lit. (me) debt/guilt, (to-me) debt/guilt-there-was.
                  >
                  > So, Latin mac-te is "a blessing(permission-to-go-ahead) has happened
                  > (to you)". The esto of macte esto marks a step on the way from
                  > macte > macte est > mactus est, the latter being a normal 3sg perf
                  > pass of a verb *mac- if such a verb had existed.
                  >
                  > Hope I'm making somewhat sense.

                  BTW, I was wondering if the original 3sg.perf.impersonal in *-to was identical to the future imp.(?) in *-to, cf.
                  Russian 'dos^li!' "let's go!", lit. "(we) left"
                  Da. 'vi er gået!' "let's go", lit. "we have left"
                  Germ. 'stillgestanden!' "halt!", lit. "stood still" (ppp)

                  It would certainly make sense with macte! "let here be mak!", ie. "get on with it!". I think PIE had *kt- -> *-xt- (suitably generalized), Latin among others generalized most ppp's back to -kt-, in the case of maxte!, there were no forms outside ppp/3sg.perf.impers/future imperative to generalize from, so it -> ma:te! -> mate!, now understood as a subjunctive for a verb back-formed as matar, which answers Rick's old question why that verb wasn't palatalized in Spanish like hecho was.


                  Torsten
                • Torsten
                  ... I ll leave this here http://concordances.org/hebrew/4731.htm Torsten
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 1, 2012
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                    > In the following, I will assume that IE *pa- = IE *ma- = IE *ba-. This
                    > is of course unusual, I think Piotr would call it; I'll defend it by
                    > saying that this not really IE, it's pre-IE, because:
                    > 1) vocalisme a, mot populaire
                    > 2) there's a nice pre-IE fit for it in Latin baculum, Basque makilla
                    > "staff", Latin pax "peace", Christian Latin pax "kiss" (ie.
                    > "blessing") and *some* of the jumble in
                    > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/HbHpHg.html
                    > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/KuhnText/08pauk-stechen.html
                    > which would make the blessed macula, Palmer's hypothetical *max, in
                    > reality pax, the result of being hit with a staff?
                    >
                    I'll leave this here
                    http://concordances.org/hebrew/4731.htm


                    Torsten
                  • Rick McCallister
                    ________________________________ From: Torsten To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2012 8:22 AM Subject: [tied]
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 1, 2012
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                      From: Torsten <tgpedersen@...>
                      To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2012 8:22 AM
                      Subject: [tied] Re: Mak

                       

                      > In the following, I will assume that IE *pa- = IE *ma- = IE *ba-. This
                      > is of course unusual, I think Piotr would call it; I'll defend it by
                      > saying that this not really IE, it's pre-IE, because:
                      > 1) vocalisme a, mot populaire
                      > 2) there's a nice pre-IE fit for it in Latin baculum, Basque makilla
                      > "staff", Latin pax "peace", Christian Latin pax "kiss" (ie.
                      > "blessing") and *some* of the jumble in
                      > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/HbHpHg.html
                      > http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/KuhnText/08pauk-stechen.html
                      > which would make the blessed macula, Palmer's hypothetical *max, in
                      > reality pax, the result of being hit with a staff?
                      So, does that make the pope a Mac-Daddy? Does getting the mac on lead to world peace? ;>

                      I'll leave this here
                      http://concordances.org/hebrew/4731.htm

                      Torsten



                    • Torsten
                      ... http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/HbHpHg.html http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/KuhnText/08pauk-stechen.html ... One tends to forget what the
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 2, 2012
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                        >
                        > > In the following, I will assume that IE *pa- = IE *ma- = IE *ba-.
                        > > This is of course unusual, I think Piotr would call it; I'll
                        > > defend it by saying that this not really IE, it's pre-IE, because:
                        > > 1) vocalisme a, mot populaire
                        > > 2) there's a nice pre-IE fit for it in Latin baculum, Basque
                        > > makilla "staff", Latin pax "peace", Christian Latin pax "kiss"
                        > > (ie. "blessing") and *some* of the jumble in
                        http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/HbHpHg.html
                        http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/KuhnText/08pauk-stechen.html
                        > > which would make the blessed macula, Palmer's hypothetical *max,
                        > > in reality pax, the result of being hit with a staff?

                        > So, does that make the pope a Mac-Daddy?
                        > Does getting the mac on lead to world peace? ;>

                        One tends to forget what the good shepherd is really there for

                        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/37181

                        pa[']&n (what serves as fodder =) bait
                        pag&[l.] fenced-in area

                        pagut pick v.

                        paha` thigh, stem
                        side form pahi`- id.

                        pahat chisel

                        pahi` thigh, stem
                        side paha` id.

                        pakan fodder
                        cf. ka|&n food,
                        pan,an dish

                        pakpak beat, beat wings
                        side form pukpuk beat with tool; cf. pak crash! smack!

                        paku`l nail

                        pa(n,)k'an, piece of wood


                        Pigs were used for sacrifice both in East Asia and Europe. If pigs came from East Asia (there is a genetic introgression in European pigs from East Asian pigs, which researches would really, really like to interpret as the result of imports of the last 200 years),
                        http://www.genetics.org/content/154/4/1785.full
                        either pig sacrifice was invented both places, or it came along with the animal itself. If so, terminology may have been borrowed.

                        > I'll leave this here
                        > http://concordances.org/hebrew/4731.htm

                        note: 'of uncertain derivation', thus not native


                        further:
                        Ernout-Meillet
                        'macellum, -ī (macellus Mart.10,96,9): marché;
                        spécialisé dans le sens de "marché aux viandes, boucherie", et même "abattoir",
                        cf. les gloses
                        macellum: κpεοπωλει~ον; - ubi occiduntur animalia, carni-ficina, et macellare, i.e. occidere. Ancien (Plaute), usuel.
                        Dérivés:
                        macellārius; -a taberna;
                        macellārius m.: marchand de comestibles; κpεoπώλης, lanista qui carnes ferro laniat;
                        macellÄ"nsis (Inscr., Glos.);
                        Macellīnus, sobriquet de l'empereur Opilius Macrinus.
                        Le groupe est demeuré dans les l. romanes, cf. M.L. 5201, 5200; 5199 macellāre (dont l'astérique est à supprimer, le verbe étant attesté dans les gloses).
                        Cf. aussi les emprunts germaniques
                        m.h.a. Metzler,
                        all. Metzel, Metzger (toutefois ce dernier peut provenir du latin médiéval: matiārius).
                        Étym. pop. dans P.F.112,14, - dictum a Macello quodam, qui exercebat in Vrbe latrocinium; quo damnato censores Aemilius et Fuluius statuerunt ut in domo eius obsonia uenderentur.
                        Varron, L.L.5,146, indique que le mot était usité à Lacédémone et en Ionie: ...antiquum macellum, ubi olerum copia; ea loca etiamnunc Lacaedaemonii uocant macellum, sed Iones [h]ostia <h>ortorum +macellotas <h>ortorum et castelli +macelli;
                        cf. Goetz-Schoell ad loc.
                        Emprunt ancien au grec. Hésychius donne μακέλα• φράγματα, δρύφακτoι; μάκελος• δρύφακτoς. Le mot grec est lui-même emprunté au sémitique.'

                        Metzel
                        http://woerterbuchnetz.de/DWB/?sigle=DWB&mode=Vernetzung&lemid=GM04521
                        Metzger
                        http://woerterbuchnetz.de/DWB/?sigle=DWB&mode=Vernetzung&lemid=GM04537



                        Torsten
                      • Torsten
                        ... Romans sacrificed pigs at the conclusion of pacts after peace negotiations, as described by Livy s History 1,24,4
                        Message 11 of 13 , Feb 2, 2012
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                          >
                          > Pigs were used for sacrifice both in East Asia and Europe. If pigs
                          > came from East Asia (there is a genetic introgression in European
                          > pigs from East Asian pigs, which researches would really, really
                          > like to interpret as the result of imports of the last 200 years),
                          > http://www.genetics.org/content/154/4/1785.full
                          > either pig sacrifice was invented both places, or it came along with
                          > the animal itself. If so, terminology may have been borrowed.

                          Romans sacrificed pigs at the conclusion of pacts after peace negotiations, as described by Livy's History 1,24,4
                          http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=liv.%201.24&lang=original
                          http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/livy/liv.1.shtml#24
                          cf
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetial


                          Torsten
                        • Rick McCallister
                          From: Torsten To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 6:05 AM Subject: [tied] Re: Mak   ... ****R With the
                          Message 12 of 13 , Feb 2, 2012
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                            From: Torsten <tgpedersen@...>
                            To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 6:05 AM
                            Subject: [tied] Re: Mak

                             

                            >
                            > Pigs were used for sacrifice both in East Asia and Europe. If pigs
                            > came from East Asia (there is a genetic introgression in European
                            > pigs from East Asian pigs, which researches would really, really
                            > like to interpret as the result of imports of the last 200 years),
                            > http://www.genetics.org/content/154/4/1785.full
                            > either pig sacrifice was invented both places, or it came along with
                            > the animal itself. If so, terminology may have been borrowed.
                            ****R
                            With the arrival of the Spaniards, pigs quickly substituted humans in sacrifices. Supposedly, they taste like human flesh. But, in any case, they grow quickly and don't require a lot of care. In much of the Third World, they roam the streets and compete with dogs for scraps and garbage.

                            Romans sacrificed pigs at the conclusion of pacts after peace negotiations, as described by Livy's History 1,24,4
                            http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=liv.%201.24&lang=original
                            http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/livy/liv.1.shtml#24
                            cf
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetial

                            Torsten




                          • Phoenix
                            The Sumerians and later, the Hittites, left texts regarding pig sacrifices. Sumer: Eat not this flesh: food avoidances from prehistory to the present - Google
                            Message 13 of 13 , Feb 4, 2012
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                              The Sumerians and later, the Hittites, left texts regarding pig sacrifices.

                              Sumer:

                              Eat not this flesh: food avoidances from prehistory to the present - Google Books Result

                              books.google.com/books?isbn=029914254X...

                              Hittites:

                              Pigs at the Gate: Hittite Pig Sacrifice in Its Eastern ... - Emory University

                              emory.academia.edu/.../Pigs_at_the_Gate_Hittite_Pig_Sacrifice_in_It...

                              The Chinese have been sacrificing swine a long time also.  Excerpt:

                              "Neolithic China

                              Archaeological evidence from Neolithic China shows a remarkable amount of care and ritual with regard to burial practices. Characteristics of 5th millennium BCE burial practices include:

                              • consistency of orientation and posture - the dead of the northwest were given a westerly orientation and those of the east an easterly one.
                              • segregation of the dead into what appear to be kinship groupings
                              • graveside ritual offerings of liquids, pig skulls, and pig jaws
                              • collective secondary burial, in which the bones of up to 70 or 80 corpses were stripped of their flesh and reburied together"
                              http://www.religionfacts.com/chinese_religion/history.htm

                              Pig and boar sacrifices are probably older than barbeque sauce.

                              Peace,
                              Demetria Nanos, Chicago

                              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > From: Torsten tgpedersen@...
                              > To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 6:05 AM
                              > Subject: [tied] Re: Mak
                              >
                              >
                              >  
                              >
                              > >
                              > > Pigs were used for sacrifice both in East Asia and Europe. If pigs
                              > > came from East Asia (there is a genetic introgression in European
                              > > pigs from East Asian pigs, which researches would really, really
                              > > like to interpret as the result of imports of the last 200 years),
                              > > http://www.genetics.org/content/154/4/1785.full
                              > > either pig sacrifice was invented both places, or it came along with
                              > > the animal itself. If so, terminology may have been borrowed.
                              > ****R
                              > With the arrival of the Spaniards, pigs quickly substituted humans in sacrifices. Supposedly, they taste like human flesh. But, in any case, they grow quickly and don't require a lot of care. In much of the Third World, they roam the streets and compete with dogs for scraps and garbage.
                              >
                              > Romans sacrificed pigs at the conclusion of pacts after peace negotiations, as described by Livy's History 1,24,4
                              > http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=liv.%201.24&lang=original
                              > http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/livy/liv.1.shtml#24
                              > cf
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetial
                              >
                              > Torsten
                              >
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