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Re: Again with the PIE homeland thing- RE: *(s)teuros

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  • mkelkar2003
    ... by a ... Av stavro strong,OPersian ustuvdr thick, strong; Ir tarbh bull, Old Arm *tawr. Seems like a connection here (taurus(2).gif) M. Kelkar
    Message 1 of 15 , May 3, 2007
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      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Jens Elmegård Rasmussen <elme@> wrote:
      > >
      > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "etherman23" <etherman23@> wrote:
      > > > If the PIE root is *(s)taur then we have an apparent violation of
      > > root
      > > > constraints. PIE didn't have any roots with a diphthong followed
      by a
      > > > resonant. That suggests a borrowing. If we analyze the root as *(s)
      > > tau
      > > > instead then the comparison breaks down because of the *r in the
      > > > Semitic form.
      > >
      > > I have a second thought: It now looks to me more like a case of
      > > borrowing back and forth. We may begin with IE *stéwH-ro-/*stuH-ró-,
      > > whence German Stier and OIc. thjórr. That appears to have been


      Av stavro strong,OPersian ustuvdr thick, strong; Ir tarbh bull, Old
      Arm *tawr. Seems like a connection here (taurus(2).gif)

      M. Kelkar
      > > integrated into Semitic as *Tawr- (nom. *Tawr-u), which may in turn
      > > have been borrowed back into IE yielding Lat. taurus, Gk. taûros,
      > > Lith. tau~ras (Celtic *tarwos by adjustment to *karwos 'stag'). I
      > > think that accomodates just about everything.
      >
      > Why should there be any original connection between *tauros and
      > *stew-x-ros? One only means 'bull' and the other 'strong/big/old
      > etc.' which could be applied to an ox or other kind of cattle but
      > is not so applied in every IE language. It seems like nothing to
      > indicate a common origin exists. Germanic is the only sub-branch
      > that could be taken to indicate *teuros beside *tauros but that's
      > almost certainly just contamination from *stew-x-ros > *steu-raz.
      >
    • Jens Elmegård Rasmussen
      ... That is not completely accurate: Stier and thjórr do mean bull , so, even if *stew(&)-ro- had other meanings too in PIE, it is entirely possible that it
      Message 2 of 15 , May 3, 2007
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@...> wrote:

        > Why should there be any original connection between *tauros and
        > *stew-x-ros? One only means 'bull' and the other 'strong/big/old
        > etc.' which could be applied to an ox or other kind of cattle but
        > is not so applied in every IE language. It seems like nothing to
        > indicate a common origin exists. Germanic is the only sub-branch
        > that could be taken to indicate *teuros beside *tauros but that's
        > almost certainly just contamination from *stew-x-ros > *steu-raz.

        That is not completely accurate: Stier and thjórr do mean 'bull', so,
        even if *stew(&)-ro- had other meanings too in PIE, it is entirely
        possible that it was borrowed in the restricted meaning 'bull'. That
        may even have made Semitic *Tawr- appealing as a Fremdwort with this
        specific meaning.

        Jens
      • mkelkar2003
        ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_s-mobile For example, the stem *(s)tauro-, perhaps meaning bison , gives us Latin taurus and Old English
        Message 3 of 15 , May 3, 2007
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          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Jens Elmegård Rasmussen <elme@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@> wrote:
          >
          > > Why should there be any original connection between *tauros and
          > > *stew-x-ros? One only means 'bull' and the other 'strong/big/old
          > > etc.' which could be applied to an ox or other kind of cattle but
          > > is not so applied in every IE language. It seems like nothing to
          > > indicate a common origin exists. Germanic is the only sub-branch
          > > that could be taken to indicate *teuros beside *tauros but that's
          > > almost certainly just contamination from *stew-x-ros > *steu-raz.
          >
          > That is not completely accurate: Stier and thjórr do mean 'bull', so,
          > even if *stew(&)-ro- had other meanings too in PIE, it is entirely
          > possible that it was borrowed in the restricted meaning 'bull'. That
          > may even have made Semitic *Tawr- appealing as a Fremdwort with this
          > specific meaning.
          >
          > Jens

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_s-mobile

          "For example, the stem *(s)tauro-, perhaps meaning 'bison', gives us
          Latin taurus and Old English steor, both meaning 'bull'. Both variants
          existed side by side in PIE, but whereas Germanic (aside from North
          Germanic) has preserved the form with the s mobile, Italic, Celtic,
          Slavic and others all have words for 'bull' which reflect the root
          without the sibilant. Compare also: English steer, Gothic stiur,
          German Stier, Avestan staora (cattle) - but Old Norse þjórr, Greek
          tauros, Latin taurus, Old Church Slavonic turŭ, Russian tur, Welsh
          tarw, Old Irish tarb, Oscan turuf and Albanian taroç.
          Contents"

          >
        • stlatos
          ... I ve said Proto-Germanic *tauros *teuros *Tiuraz several times. The German meaning isn t decisive, as far as I know it s just a simple shift from
          Message 4 of 15 , May 3, 2007
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            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Jens Elmegård Rasmussen <elme@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@> wrote:
            >
            > > Why should there be any original connection between *tauros and
            > > *stew-x-ros? One only means 'bull' and the other 'strong/big/old
            > > etc.' which could be applied to an ox or other kind of cattle but
            > > is not so applied in every IE language. It seems like nothing to
            > > indicate a common origin exists. Germanic is the only sub-branch
            > > that could be taken to indicate *teuros beside *tauros but that's
            > > almost certainly just contamination from *stew-x-ros > *steu-raz.
            >
            > That is not completely accurate: Stier and thjórr do mean 'bull'

            I've said Proto-Germanic *tauros > *teuros > *Tiuraz several times.
            The German meaning isn't decisive, as far as I know it's just a
            simple shift from '(young) ox' so it says nothing about PIE.

            , so,
            > even if *stew(&)-ro- had other meanings too in PIE, it is entirely
            > possible that it was borrowed in the restricted meaning 'bull'. That
            > may even have made Semitic *Tawr- appealing as a Fremdwort with this
            > specific meaning.

            Is there any specific reason you reconstruct *stew(&)-ro-?
          • tgpedersen
            ... from http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Nostratica/message/90 The Canberra document (by Laurent Sagart, at [
            Message 5 of 15 , May 4, 2007
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              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Jens Elmegård Rasmussen <elme@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@> wrote:
              >
              > > Why should there be any original connection between *tauros and
              > > *stew-x-ros? One only means 'bull' and the other 'strong/big/old
              > > etc.' which could be applied to an ox or other kind of cattle but
              > > is not so applied in every IE language. It seems like nothing to
              > > indicate a common origin exists. Germanic is the only sub-branch
              > > that could be taken to indicate *teuros beside *tauros but that's
              > > almost certainly just contamination from *stew-x-ros > *steu-raz.
              >
              > That is not completely accurate: Stier and thjórr do mean 'bull',
              > so, even if *stew(&)-ro- had other meanings too in PIE, it is
              > entirely possible that it was borrowed in the restricted meaning
              > 'bull'. That may even have made Semitic *Tawr- appealing as a
              > Fremdwort with this specific meaning.
              >
              from
              http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Nostratica/message/90
              "
              The "Canberra document" (by Laurent Sagart, at [
              http://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/08/50/59/PDF/canberra.pdf
              ] )
              has among its PAN/PECL reconstructions

              PAN
              *(q)uRun, "horn/antler"

              and further
              ta?urun,u "pygmy deer" Kanakanubu
              taurun,u do. Saaroa

              with prefixed ta-. In other words, Semitic and IE *tawr- means "the
              horned one", and is with *k-rn- perhaps a loan from a Austronesian
              language (now _that_, if true, I find interesting).

              from the same document:

              Austronesian-Sino-Tibetan-(TP: IE) comparisons

              basic vocabulary
              xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx PAN/PECL Old Chinese Tibeto-Burman PIE
              12 horn/antler (q)uRung (a)k-rok rung=rwang *k-rn-
              50 wrap around -kes (a)ket
              51 bent, crooked -kuk (b)(N-)kh(r)ok kuk
              53 curled, bent -kul (b)(N-)k(h)ro[r|n] kuar

              cultural vocabulary
              4 cage, enclosure kurung (a)k&-rong kru:n, *kr-g-,
              *kr-ng-
              "

              PECL: Sagart's proposed Proto East Coast Linkage, lumping
              Malayo-Polynesian with eastern Taiwanese Austronesian languages,
              splitting it from the remaining Taiwanese Austronesian languages.


              Torsten
            • Jens Elmegård Rasmussen
              ... It s based on Ved. sthávira-, although I fail to understand the full allomorphy. I bracket the laryngeal because it may have been lost in the particular
              Message 6 of 15 , May 4, 2007
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                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@...> wrote:

                > Is there any specific reason you reconstruct *stew(&)-ro-?

                It's based on Ved. sthávira-, although I fail to understand the full
                allomorphy. I bracket the laryngeal because it may have been lost in
                the particular kind of IE from which Sem. *Tawr- was borrowed.

                Jens
              • stlatos
                The Yahoo Mail button save as a draft started sending instead for no discernable reason. Ignore repeated messages: *swepn.os. ... I ve already discussed my
                Message 7 of 15 , May 4, 2007
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                  The Yahoo Mail button "save as a draft" started sending instead for
                  no discernable reason. Ignore repeated messages: *swepn.os.

                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Jens Elmegård Rasmussen <elme@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Is there any specific reason you reconstruct *stew(&)-ro-?
                  >
                  > It's based on Ved. sthávira-, although I fail to understand the full
                  > allomorphy. I bracket the laryngeal because it may have been lost in
                  > the particular kind of IE from which Sem. *Tawr- was borrowed.

                  I've already discussed my derivation for sthávira-. More
                  specifically, why would it have been lost in PIE? Is your
                  reconstruction for a variety of dialects (some of them losing it as
                  the ancestors of Baltic, Iranian, Germanic)? Is there any reason for
                  a vowel instead of a syllabic C at this time?
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