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Res: [tied] Re: Ossetic fox

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  • tgpedersen
    ... A rather long quote, from Burrow The Sanskrit language again: §12. Treatment of r and l In Iranian IE r and l appear indiscriminately as r (there
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 3, 2007
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      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:
      > On 2007-02-03 13:18, Joao S. Lopes wrote:
      > > Raposa seems to be superficially similar to lopas^a. Is there any
      > > Iranian equivalent of Indian lopas^a ? Something like *laupasa or
      > > *raupasa? The Alans was settled in Iberia.
      > > Perhaps *raupasa>*rapausa>raposa ???
      > Middle Persian ro:pa:s, Mod.Per. rubah point to PIr. *raupa:c'-.

      A rather long quote, from Burrow 'The Sanskrit language' again:
      §12. Treatment of r and l
      In Iranian IE r and l appear indiscriminately as r (there are a few
      exceptions in Modern Persian and occasionally elsewhere : Pers.
      lis^tan 'to lick', Skt. rih-, lik, Gk. leikho:; las^in 'soft', Skt.
      s´lak.s.ná- : lab 'lip' : Lat. labium ; Oss. sald 'cold' : Lith.
      s^áltas). In the language of the R.gveda this is predominantly the
      case. In Classical Sanskrit both l and r are found, but their
      distribution does not correspond exactly with that of Indo-European.
      In certain Eastern dialects of Indo-Aryan (notably in the inscriptions
      of As´oka and in the Ma:gadhi: of the Drama) only l is found. The
      treatment of IE l in Sanskrit is illustrated by the following examples :
      (a) l becomes r : rin.ákti 'leaves' : Lat. linquit; s´rón.i-
      'buttock' : Lat. clu:nis, Lith. s^launìs ; sarpís 'butter', Toch. A.
      s.älyp, cf. Engl. salve ; aratní- 'elbow' : Gk. ò:léne:, Lat. ulna ;
      s´rávas 'fame' : Gk. kléos, O. Sl. slovo 'word' ; gárbha- 'embryo' :
      Gk. delphús 'id', `adelphós 'brother' (cf. sodara-) ; cakrá- 'wheel'
      : Gk. kúklos ; paras´ú- 'axe' : Gk. pélekus ; píparti 'fills' : Gk.
      píple:mi; pur- 'city' : Lith. pilìs, Gk. pólos; s´ri- 'to lean' :
      Gk. klíno:; sú:rya- 'sun', Lat. so:l.
      (b) l remains : lúbhyati 'covets' : Lat. lubet; palitá-
      'grey-haired' : cf. Gk. poliós, pelitnós, etc. ; °kulva- 'bald' : Lat.
      calvus; palá:va- 'chaff' : O. Sl. pléva, Lat. palea; palvala- 'pond'
      : cf. Lat. palus 'swamp' ; pli:hán- 'spleen' : Gk. sple:n, Lat. lien ;
      dala- 'portion' : Lith. dalìs ; klóman- 'lung' : Gk. pleúmo:n.
      In comparing the Vedic with the Classical language we notice :
      (i)that in a number of words the latter has l where the former has r,
      and this normally in cases where l appears in other IE languages, e.g.
      laghú- 'light' v. raghu-, Gk. `elakhús, Lat. levis; plu- 'to float',
      v. pru-, Gk. pléo: ; lip- ' to smear', v. rip-, Gk. aleipho: ; lih-
      'to lick ', v. rih-, Gk. leíkho: ;
      (ii) that a considerable proportion of the classical words which
      preserve IE are not found in the text of the R.gveda, either by
      accident, or because their meaning was of such a nature that they were
      not likely to appear in a text of sacred hymns (e.g. plús.i- 'flea'
      : Arm. lu, Alb. pl'es^t, cf. Lith. blusà) ;
      (iii) that some derivatives which have become isolated from their
      roots preserve IE l even when it is normally replaced by r in the
      corresponding roots : s´lóka- 'verse' (s´ru-), vipula- 'great,
      extensive' (pr´.-, píparti 'fill').
      The explanation of this apparently complicated treatment is fairly
      simple. The dialect at the basis of the R.gvedic language lay to the
      north-west, while the classical language was formed in Madhyades´a.
      The original division must have been such that the Western dialect
      turned l into r in the same way as Iranian (being contiguous to
      Iranian, and at the same time probably representing a later wave of
      invasion), while the more easterly dialect retained the original
      distinction. It was in this latter area that Classical Sanskrit was
      elaborated, but it was not evolved as a separate literary language,
      distinct from that of the Veda; on the contrary it developed as a
      modification of the old sacred language of the Vedic hymns. The latter
      was always the foundation of the literary language, but since after
      the earliest period (and this excludes most of the later tenth book of
      the R.gveda), the centre of its cultivation shifted eastward to
      Madhyades´a, in its further development it was subject to the
      continuous influence of the dialectal forms of this region. So in the
      case of the distribution of r and l many of the basic words of the
      vocabulary retain always the form established by the Vedic literature,
      but in other cases l-forms based on the dialect of Madhyades´a replace
      them. In cases where the word in question is not found in the Vedic
      text, and where therefore there existed no established literary
      tradition, the Eastern form with original l almost universally appears.
      The treatment of IE r is different in that in the vast majority of
      cases it continues to be represented by r in all periods of the
      language, e.g. rudhirá- ' red, blood', Gk. `eruthrós; járant- 'old',
      Gk. géro:n 'old man' ; raí- 'property', Lat. re:s, pári 'round', Gk.
      perí; vártate 'turns', Lat. vertitur, párdate 'breaks wind', Gk.
      pérdetai, ; pá:rs.n.i- 'heel', Gk. ptérna, Goth. fairzna ; sru- ' to
      flow', Gk. réo: ; náras n. pl. 'men', Gk. `anéres, `ándres ; sárpati
      'crawls', Gk. ´erpo:, Lat. serpo: ; rá:j-, rá:jan- 'king', Lat. re:x ;
      rátha- 'chariot', Lith. ra:tas 'wheel', Lat. rota 'id' ; vi:rá-
      'man, hero', Lith. výras, Lat. vir, etc.
      On the other hand instances of l in place of IE r are comparatively
      rare: lóhita- 'red' (also róhita-, Av. raoiDita-, cf. rudhirá-) ; álam
      'suitable, enough', v. áram, cf. Gk. `ararísko: ; pala:yate 'flees'
      (para: with i- 'to go'). The number of such examples is too small to
      justify the assumption of an l-dialect to account for them. Such an
      l-dialect does in fact occur later in the Magadhan Prakrit, but it was
      limited to a small area, and this Prakrit cannot account for forms
      with l out of r which occur in the later Vedic literature. It is also
      to be noted that in some cases where a change l > r has been assumed
      (e.g. lup- compared with Lat. rumpo) it is more likely that l is original.

    • Rick McCallister
      But remember that raposa is from rap-os-a ¨s/th with a tail¨, it has the same root as Spanish rabo ¨tail¨and rábano ¨radish¨, also good old Rapunzel of
      Message 2 of 4 , Feb 3, 2007
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        But remember that raposa is from rap-os-a ¨s/th with a tail¨, it has the same root as Spanish rabo ¨tail¨and rábano ¨radish¨, also good old Rapunzel of the fairy tails.

        "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...> wrote:
        Raposa seems to be superficially similar to lopas^a. Is there any Iranian equivalent of Indian lopas^a ? Something like *laupasa or *raupasa? The Alans was settled in Iberia.
        Perhaps *raupasa>*rapausa>raposa ???

        ----- Mensagem original ----
        De: Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@ yahoo.com>
        Para: cybalist@yahoogroup s.com
        Enviadas: Sexta-feira, 2 de Fevereiro de 2007 21:29:37
        Assunto: Re: [tied] Re: Ossetic fox

        It´s not my view but in some histories of the Spanish language, that statement has been made. I have nothing authoritative to say about it.
        I was asking about the derivation of ruvas et al. from the IE root. What are the steps?

        Gordon Barlow <barlow@candw. ky> wrote:
        BlankRick. I don't think it's reasonable to state with certainty "The
        animal was named after the vegetable". I can concede the possibility that
        animals were named after vegetables, but then all things are possible. Not
        all are plausible, though, and it seems more likely (to me, this is) that
        the name for a fox and the name for a radish are not cognates but homonyms.

        As to the derivation of any animal's name from an IE name: I make no claim
        one way or another. I think it was Piotr who once wrote that IE as a single
        posited language without dialects can have had only a momentary existence,
        and I agree with that line. There is too much danger of over-shooting and
        under-shooting for anyone to be sure of any IE word.

        I will say no more than that the words at issue are compatible - perfectly
        compatible - with variants of English "wolf' - and the Latin word for "fox",
        too. My general line of enquiry with words is: what cognates are
        recognisable in the dialects of England, and how might they have become
        differentiated through the interaction of speakers of the dialects?

        "Lupus" and "vulpus" are clearly dialectal variants, so the origin might not
        have been all that far back from their currency.


        >The animal was named after the vegetable --both the vegetable and the
        animal were (supposedly) named because of their prominent tail
        (metaphorically in the case of radishes and other members of that family).
        Perhaps raposa is a taboo form. I can vaguely see your derivation from the
        IE root of wolf, but could you elaborate a bit more on how you derived it?
        Rick McCallister

        >>But ruvas, raev, etc are perfectly compatible with dialectal variants of
        English wo(l)f, pronounced woof. With respect, the idea of calling an animal
        after a vegetable because of its tail is not plausible. So I suggest any
        relationship with radishes is unlikely.
        Gordon Barlow

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