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Re: On the ordering of some PIE rules

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  • tgpedersen
    ... Out of curiosity: why do you find that excellent? ... Not yet. I m afraid I boasted a bit; since Verner is inseparable from Grimm, I d have to find a way
    Message 1 of 149 , Feb 1, 2007
      > > >
      > > > > the same time we get rid of the whole Germanic sound shift
      > > >
      > > > Does that mean Grimm's law?
      > > >
      > > > M. Kelkar
      > >
      > > Yes. It means I'm making the claim that those changes that Grimm's
      > > law is meant to explain were already present as variations
      > > (allophones) in
      > Excellent!

      Out of curiosity: why do you find that excellent?

      > That means Verner's law which is meant to explain exceptions to
      > Grimm's law is gone to.

      Not yet. I'm afraid I boasted a bit; since Verner is inseparable from
      Grimm, I'd have to find a way to incorporate that as PIE allophones too.

      > What do you think about the following?
      > "Is it not possible that Verner's law of voicing is due to some
      > other factor-for example the influece of another language on
      > Germanic"(Thundy 1991, p. 1181, Future of Grimm's Law in the files
      > section.

      It's possible. The idea was proposed because Verner's recall some
      similar phenomenon in the Baltic Fennic languages, but that turned out
      to be unworkable. Of course there might have been other substrate
      languages which would be difficult to say the least to recover.

      > > pronunciaton in PIE sounds (phonemes), and that those variations
      > > were generalized in the Germanic languages and the others were
      > > generalized in other IE languages, eg Sanskrit

      > > > > by replacing it with generalizations of allophones that were
      > > > > already present in PIE.
      > Based on the above can PIE be split into two? PWE Proto-West
      > European from which Germanic, Celtic came out and PVE (Proto Vedic)
      > from which Balto-Slavic, IIr, Armenian, Greek came out.

      It's always been possible to do that, but the way I've proposed it PIE
      will be so to speak be a mixed kentum/satem language which could
      'degenerate' into a pure kentum or pure satem language anytime by
      generalization of allophones. I rather see it this way: As
      satem-generalization became popular in the center of the PIE area, the
      conservative dialects in the periphery reacted by generalizing to
      become kentum-languages. But the idea of satem languages being a
      contiguous group and kentum languages splinter groups at the periphery
      (Anatolian, Tocharian, Greek, Celtic, Italic, Germanic) has been
      standard in many years.

    • george knysh
      ... ****GK: Yes. But that wasn t the question. So I ... ****GK: Where does it say that this find is Przeworsk?****
      Message 149 of 149 , Apr 23, 2008
        --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

        > > > ... an upper crust from wherever in the
        > Przeworsk culture at some
        > > > time in the first century BCE moved to Denmark
        > for what ever
        > > > reason under no particular leader/
        > >(GK) What is your evidence for this assertion?
        > Obviously the same class of people who were buried
        > separately in their
        > princely graves must have been present at some time
        > in the 1st and
        > early 2nd century in Northern Bohemia, Wielkopolska,
        > Pomerania,
        > Mecklenburg and Denmark, since that is where those
        > graves were found.
        > The reason I want to impose a temporal sequence on
        > that you already know.

        ****GK: Yes. But that wasn't the question. So I
        > > Is there something in Danish archaeology which
        > indicates the
        > > presence of Przeworkers there in the first c. BCE
        > (as there is for
        > > Thuringia and the Wetterau?)
        > At least the Hoby find
        > http://tinyurl.com/5kxt3n
        > http://www.natmus.dk/sw22086.asp
        > can be placed close to the first cent BCE.

        ****GK: Where does it say that this find is

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