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Re: Archaeology of the Horse

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  • george knysh
    ... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your email and see which of your friends are online - Right on the
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 31, 2006
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      > Is there supposed to be some point to this goulash?
      >
      > --- mkelkar2003 <swatimkelkar@...> wrote:
      >
      > > "Although significantly altered from their
      > original
      > > composition,
      > > comparison of the isotopic and distributional data
      > > obtained for the
      > > samples from Botai with data obtained for modern
      > and
      > > prehistoric
      > > reference horse fats /cut for economy GK/ etc etc
      > etc.
      >
      > The postulated expansion of IE associated with the
      > spread of Corded Ware cultures to northern and
      > central
      > Europe in the 4th and 3rd millennium BC from a
      > Ponto-Caspian heartland does not depend on the
      > classical "kurgan" theory, and does not require the
      > existence of nomadism or even the presence of
      > cavalry
      > as a preponderant military element for its
      > justification. That's for starters. The attempt of
      > the
      > Renfrew school to discredit the notion of early
      > horse
      > domestication in the steppes by distinguishing this
      > from "taming" is a separate issue altogether. I
      > don't
      > find their arguments particularly convincing. Much
      > of
      > this has already been discussed here at various
      > times.
      > Must one begin anew every few months? How many times
      > is it necessary to repeat that it is Corded Ware
      > (originating in the Serednyj Stih/Sredny Stog
      > culture
      > prior to the latter's evolution into Yamna) which
      > assimilated Trypilia and Globular Amphorae, and not
      > the other way around?
      > Also: instead of re-posting the various citations in
      > the aforementioned goulash, why not respond to JL's
      > query about the five designations of "horse"?




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    • mkelkar2003
      ... What does it depend on then? That s for starters. The attempt of ... Which argument in particular? Do you still want to propse that PIE speakers assuming
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 1, 2006
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > > Is there supposed to be some point to this goulash?
        > >
        > > --- mkelkar2003 <swatimkelkar@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > > "Although significantly altered from their
        > > original
        > > > composition,
        > > > comparison of the isotopic and distributional data
        > > > obtained for the
        > > > samples from Botai with data obtained for modern
        > > and
        > > > prehistoric
        > > > reference horse fats /cut for economy GK/ etc etc
        > > etc.
        > >
        > > The postulated expansion of IE associated with the
        > > spread of Corded Ware cultures to northern and
        > > central
        > > Europe in the 4th and 3rd millennium BC from a
        > > Ponto-Caspian heartland does not depend on the
        > > classical "kurgan" theory, and does not require the
        > > existence of nomadism or even the presence of
        > > cavalry
        > > as a preponderant military element for its
        > > justification.

        What does it depend on then?

        That's for starters. The attempt of
        > > the
        > > Renfrew school to discredit the notion of early
        > > horse
        > > domestication in the steppes by distinguishing this
        > > from "taming" is a separate issue altogether. I
        > > don't
        > > find their arguments particularly convincing.

        Which argument in particular? Do you still want to propse that PIE
        speakers assuming they existed rode on horsebacks (like nomads)
        spreading the IE langauges?

        Much
        > > of
        > > this has already been discussed here at various
        > > times.

        "Discussesd" does not mean all the objections have been answered.

        > > Must one begin anew every few months? How many times
        > > is it necessary to repeat that it is Corded Ware
        > > (originating in the Serednyj Stih/Sredny Stog
        > > culture
        > > prior to the latter's evolution into Yamna) which
        > > assimilated Trypilia and Globular Amphorae, and not
        > > the other way around?

        You lost me there. What does corded ware have to do with supposed
        exapnsion/invasion of the IE speakers. You may have read the
        citation about Yamnaya not having any evidence of long distance
        migrations or nomadism.

        > > Also: instead of re-posting the various citations in
        > > the aforementioned goulash, why not respond to JL's
        > > query about the five designations of "horse"?


        I did. My post was rejected by the moderator(s).

        M. Kelkar

        >
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        >
        >
        >
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      • george knysh
        ... *****GK: On the decision to move into a coveted territory associated to the conviction or hope that one has sufficient strength to make this possible.
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 1, 2006
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          --- mkelkar2003 <swatimkelkar@...> wrote:

          > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh
          > <gknysh@...> wrote:

          > > >
          > > > The postulated expansion of IE associated with
          > the
          > > > spread of Corded Ware cultures to northern and
          > > > central
          > > > Europe in the 4th and 3rd millennium BC from a
          > > > Ponto-Caspian heartland does not depend on the
          > > > classical "kurgan" theory, and does not require
          > the
          > > > existence of nomadism or even the presence of
          > > > cavalry
          > > > as a preponderant military element for its
          > > > justification.
          >
          > What does it depend on then?

          *****GK: On the decision to move into a coveted
          territory associated to the conviction or hope that
          one has sufficient strength to make this possible.
          There are many known instances in Europe itself
          (independent of the original postulated IE push) where
          such movements succeeded for reasons other than
          massive cavalry assaults such as were imagined in the
          classical "kurgan" theory. For instance: the Germanic
          drang of 300 BC -->, the Slavic invasions, etc
          etc.*****


          > Much
          > > > of
          > > > this has already been discussed here at various
          > > > times.
          >
          > "Discussesd" does not mean all the objections have
          > been answered.

          *****GK: Have a look at these discussions and state
          which objections remain unanswered.*****


          >
          > > > Must one begin anew every few months? How many
          > times
          > > > is it necessary to repeat that it is Corded Ware
          > > > (originating in the Serednyj Stih/Sredny Stog
          > > > culture
          > > > prior to the latter's evolution into Yamna)
          > which
          > > > assimilated Trypilia and Globular Amphorae, and
          > not
          > > > the other way around?
          >
          > You lost me there. What does corded ware have to do
          > with supposed
          > exapnsion/invasion of the IE speakers. You may have
          > read the
          > citation about Yamnaya not having any evidence of
          > long distance
          > migrations or nomadism.

          *****GK: Serednyj Stih (ca. 4200-3500 BC) was
          antecedent to Yamna, and was ancestral to the latter
          as well as to other "Corded Ware" cultures. It was a
          pastoral (though not exclusively so) culture, not a
          classical "nomadic" culture. The spread of "Corded
          Ware" to northern and central Europe preceded the
          emergence of Yamna. "Corded Ware" had infiltrated
          Trypilia (from its Serednyj Stih base) and was already
          present as far west as the current Polish-Ukrainian
          border even before the disappearance of Funnel Beaker.
          Globular Amphorae bypassed this initial CW presence as
          it marched eastward against the Trypilians. Within a
          few hundred years everything in this large area became
          "Corded Ware". Yamna (ca. 3500-2800 BC) was a late
          eastern variant of "Corded Ware".******






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        • mkelkar2003
          ... The Slavic invasions (migrations?) are problematic as they are unsubstantiated by any evidence. Refer to Alinei s challenge below: The totally absurd
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 2, 2006
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            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > --- mkelkar2003 <swatimkelkar@...> wrote:
            >
            > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh
            > > <gknysh@> wrote:
            >
            > > > >
            > > > > The postulated expansion of IE associated with
            > > the
            > > > > spread of Corded Ware cultures to northern and
            > > > > central
            > > > > Europe in the 4th and 3rd millennium BC from a
            > > > > Ponto-Caspian heartland does not depend on the
            > > > > classical "kurgan" theory, and does not require
            > > the
            > > > > existence of nomadism or even the presence of
            > > > > cavalry
            > > > > as a preponderant military element for its
            > > > > justification.
            > >
            > > What does it depend on then?
            >
            > *****GK: On the decision to move into a coveted
            > territory associated to the conviction or hope that
            > one has sufficient strength to make this possible.
            > There are many known instances in Europe itself
            > (independent of the original postulated IE push) where
            > such movements succeeded for reasons other than
            > massive cavalry assaults such as were imagined in the
            > classical "kurgan" theory. For instance: the Germanic
            > drang of 300 BC -->, the Slavic invasions, etc
            > etc.*****

            The Slavic invasions (migrations?) are problematic as they are
            unsubstantiated by any evidence. Refer to Alinei's challenge below:

            "The totally absurd thesis of the so called `late arrival' of the
            Slavs in Europe must be replaced by the scenario of Slavic continuity
            from Paleolithic, and the demographic growth and geographic expansion
            of the Slavs can be explained, much more realistically, by the
            extraordinary success, continuity and stability of the Neolithic
            cultures of South-Eastern Europe (the only ones in Europe that caused
            the formation of tells) (Alinei 2004)."

            http://www.continuitas.com/interdisciplinary.pdf

            "And I (Alinei) challenge Slavic specialist to find any indication of
            a recent arrival of the Slavs in their area in other (other than those
            mentioned by him already) medieval sources (parentheses added, Alinei
            2003)."

            http://www.continuitas.com/interdisciplinary.pdf page 26






            >
            > > Much
            > > > > of
            > > > > this has already been discussed here at various
            > > > > times.
            > >
            > > "Discussesd" does not mean all the objections have
            > > been answered.
            >
            > *****GK: Have a look at these discussions and state
            > which objections remain unanswered.*****
            >
            >
            > >
            > > > > Must one begin anew every few months? How many
            > > times
            > > > > is it necessary to repeat that it is Corded Ware
            > > > > (originating in the Serednyj Stih/Sredny Stog
            > > > > culture
            > > > > prior to the latter's evolution into Yamna)
            > > which
            > > > > assimilated Trypilia and Globular Amphorae, and
            > > not
            > > > > the other way around?
            > >
            > > You lost me there. What does corded ware have to do
            > > with supposed
            > > exapnsion/invasion of the IE speakers. You may have
            > > read the
            > > citation about Yamnaya not having any evidence of
            > > long distance
            > > migrations or nomadism.
            >
            > *****GK: Serednyj Stih (ca. 4200-3500 BC) was
            > antecedent to Yamna, and was ancestral to the latter
            > as well as to other "Corded Ware" cultures. It was a
            > pastoral (though not exclusively so) culture, not a
            > classical "nomadic" culture. The spread of "Corded
            > Ware" to northern and central Europe preceded the
            > emergence of Yamna. "Corded Ware" had infiltrated
            > Trypilia (from its Serednyj Stih base) and was already
            > present as far west as the current Polish-Ukrainian
            > border even before the disappearance of Funnel Beaker.
            > Globular Amphorae bypassed this initial CW presence as
            > it marched eastward against the Trypilians. Within a
            > few hundred years everything in this large area became
            > "Corded Ware". Yamna (ca. 3500-2800 BC) was a late
            > eastern variant of "Corded Ware".******

            The following link don't mention anything about language of these people.

            http://www.netaxs.com/~tdo/trypil.html

            Many articles on this site are very cautious about the language issue:

            http://www.trypillia.com/articles/index.shtml

            except this one which apprently has not been updated for a while.

            http://www.trypillia.com/articles/eng/re5.shtml

            The author defends Gimbutas' theory as follows:

            "The language of the Kurgan horse-riders did expand. All scholars
            (except the so-called Indocentric crackpots) admit that Indo-Iranian
            was a Kurgan language, and that the languages of northern India have
            been replaced by Indo-Aryan, even though there is no evidence of a
            major invasion."

            Allen might as well include the whole archaeological establishment for
            example Harvard archaeologist Lamberg-Karlovsky in his defintion of
            "Indo-Centric" crackpots.

            Looking at the diagram titled "Central Europe at the beginning of the
            3rd Millenium BC" not just "Indo-Iranian" but **EVERY
            SINGLE**identification of a site with a group of languages has been
            rejected by specialist in the field. All the references have been
            listed under Section 6 of proto vedic continuity theory.doc in the
            files section.

            In passing it may be noted that James Allen is a computer programmer.

            http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~jamesdow/Tech/index.htm

            Allen's articles in not listed under "Scientifc Articles."

            "It is known though that the tribes that later formed the Trypillia
            culture must have migrated from the territories of what today are
            Rumania and Hungary, and settled in the territory of the present-day
            Ukraine in about the sixth millennium BC. We have no clear evidence as
            to what language they spoke (Dovzhenko, 2005 ?)"

            http://www.trypillia.com/articles/eng/re3.shtml

            Hungary to Ukriane is in the other direction.




            M. Kelkar








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            >
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          • george knysh
            ... ****GK: The Slavic expansion of the late 5th-6th centuries is well documented.*****
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 3, 2006
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              --- mkelkar2003 <swatimkelkar@...> wrote:

              > The Slavic invasions (migrations?) are problematic
              > as they are
              > unsubstantiated by any evidence. Refer to Alinei's
              > challenge below:
              >
              > "The totally absurd thesis of the so called `late
              > arrival' of the
              > Slavs in Europe must be replaced by the scenario of
              > Slavic continuity
              > from Paleolithic,/etc./

              ****GK: The Slavic expansion of the late 5th-6th
              centuries is well documented.*****






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