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Re: Perfect vs. hi-conjugation: the truth at last

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  • tgpedersen
    . ... The -s that appears after the -r of 3pl in Iranian (c^iko:it&r&s^) and also in Skt -úr
    Message 1 of 4 , Oct 3, 2006
      .
      > The thing that really needs explaining is the pret 3sg, which
      > also is a pivot for Jasanoff. In my view, every (durative)
      > verbal root has a parallel punctual stem in -s-, back-formed by
      > falsely interpreting a 2sg subjunctive in -si as an imperative
      > in -i, whereby it gets the punctual semantics of the imperative.
      > Here this punctual stem, with past semantics (in Baltic it is
      > used with future semantics) replaces the endingless (and
      > therefore potentially confusing) root in 3sg pret. hi-conjugation.

      The -s that appears after the -r of 3pl in Iranian (c^iko:it&r&s^)
      and also in Skt -úr < *-r.´s^ must have the same origin and the same
      purpose, to indicate past.


      Torsten
    • tgpedersen
      ... Classical Armenian from http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/armol-1-R.html Matthew 5:1-16. 1 - Ew teseal zzhol ovurdsn el i learrn. ew ibrew
      Message 2 of 4 , Oct 8, 2006
        > And BTW, if one stem can be exchanged for another in the 3sg pret
        > hi-conjugation, then the same must go for stems extended with
        > *-eh1 (stative) and *-ax (factitive, but once ingressive, according
        > to Jasanoff). That would explain the Baltic 3pers preterites from
        > *-e: and *-a: (and eventually the Slavic participal preterite too).
        >

        Classical Armenian
        from
        http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/armol-1-R.html
        "
        Matthew 5:1-16.

        1 - Ew teseal zzhol'ovurdsn el i learrn. ew ibrew nstaw and`
        matean arr na ashakertk' nora

        * ew -- conjunction; <ew> and; even, also, too
        -- And
        * teseal -- past participle;
        nominative singular of <tesanem> I see
        -- seeing
        * zzhol'ovurdsn -- direct object marker <z->... + noun;
        accusative plural of <zhol'ovurd> multitude +
        demonstrative suffix <-n> that, that over there, the
        -- the multitudes
        * el -- verb; 3rd singular aorist of <elanem> I come, go up
        -- he went up
        * i -- preposition;
        <i> to, in(to), upon; at, under; from, out of, away from;
        from among; by, through the agency of
        -- onto
        * learrn -- noun; accusative singular of <learrn> mountain
        -- a mountain
        * ew -- conjunction; <ew> and; even, also, too
        -- and
        * ibrew -- conjunction; <ibrew> when
        -- when
        * nstaw -- verb; 3rd singular aorist mediopassive of <nstim> I sit
        -- he was set
        * and -- adverb; <and> there
        -- ...
        * matean -- verb;
        3rd plural aorist mediopassive of <match'im> I approach
        -- came
        * arr -- preposition; <arr> to, toward (a person);
        beside; in the time of; in addition to
        -- unto
        * na -- pronoun; accusative singular of <na> he, she, it
        -- him
        * ashakertk' -- noun;
        nominative plural of <ashakert> student, disciple
        -- disciples
        * nora -- pronoun; genitive singular of <na> he, she, it -- his


        2 - Ew bats'eal zberan iwr usuts'anér znosa ew asér.

        * ew -- conjunction; <ew> and; even, also, too
        -- And
        * bats'eal -- past participle; nominative singular of <banam> I open
        -- he opened
        * zberan -- direct object marker <z->... + noun;
        accusative singular of <beran> mouth
        -- mouth
        * iwr -- reflexive pronoun;
        genitive singular of <iwr> him-, her-, it-self
        -- his
        * usuts'anér -- verb;
        3rd singular imperfect of <usuts'anem> I teach
        -- taught
        * znosa -- direct object marker <z->... + pronoun;
        accusative plural of <na> he, she, it
        -- them
        * ew -- conjunction; <ew> and; even, also, too
        -- and
        * asér -- verb; 3rd singular imperfect of <asem> I say
        -- saying
        "

        Note the use of the past paticiple in -l: it is used in
        infinite constructions together with finite verbs:
        teseal "having seen"
        el (aorist, not a participle!) "he went up"

        batseal "having opened" (his mouth)
        usuts'anér (imperfect) "he taught"

        A subject of the participle is in the genitive
        Orots' ekeal ... "their having arrived ..."
        ie. "when they had arrived"

        One could imagine something similar for a stage preceding
        Proto-Slavic in conversations about subjects in the past,
        l-participles used exclusively for dependent non-finite
        constructions, with aorist or imperfect in the main verb.
        (This would correspond to the original state of affairs
        in Finno-Ugric languages). Something like
        'ego pris^el padU' "when he came, he fell"
        (my apologies for this non-existent Slavic dialect, I hope
        the intention is clear)
        There is a general tendency for constructions with oblique
        cases to turn into nominative constructions, cf English
        methinks etc. So, later
        'on pris^el padU' "when he came, he fell"
        With the (new?) concept of subordinate sentences, this was felt
        to be two sentences with two finite verbs.
        One day people decided they didn't need other past tenses
        'on pris^el i padal'


        I think that is also the origin of the PIE mi-conjugation (but
        not restricted to past tenses this time). The secondary endings
        *-m (< *n,W), *-s, *-t are deictic particles used as suffixes
        to to the verb stem, which is a participle. In the same manner
        these forms came to be seen as finite, and squeezed out the
        original hi-conjugation (especially when adding -i, forming
        a 'locativic present continuous' the same way as many other
        languages (Engl. 'he was on hunting' -> '... a-hunting')).


        Torsten
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