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Re: [tied] *rebh- or *H3rebh-

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  • Abdullah Konushevci
    ... but ... could ... an ... much ... family. If ... rather than ... [AK] First, I found that the verb is to cover, to build , future and
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 4 12:30 AM
      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > On 2006-07-03 17:04, Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
      >
      > > *H3 is described phontecally as a rounded velar fricative [XW],
      but
      > > I doubt as well that /b/ in <brinjë> as well as <v> in <vrap>
      could
      > > as well be a prefix, but rounded character of *H3, followed by
      > > resonant leaves a space to doubt of their laryngeal origin.
      > > Nevertheless, I just started to treat words in *r-. It was just
      an
      > > assumption. But, to not accept that Alb. <brinjë> that has so
      much
      > > cognate in Germanic languages and in Slavic, is very strange.
      >
      > The 'rib' word has likely cognates in Greek -- the verb <erépto:>
      > 'cover, provide with a roof' (*h1rebH-je/o-) and its lexical
      family. If
      > there ever was an initial laryngeal in this root, it was *h1
      rather than
      > *h3.

      [AK]
      First, I found that the verb is <erepho> 'to cover, to build',
      future <erepso> and <erepsomai>, aor. <erepsa>; erepsimos 'belonging
      to roof'. So, for sure, we have *H1rebh-o in verbal root.
      .
      Initial /o/ is only found in "Rasmussen derivatives" with the
      > O-fix, <óropHos, oropHé:> 'cover, roof' and must be due to Gk.
      vowel
      > assimilation, as in <odoús> and <ónoma>. It's far from obvious
      that the
      > Albanian word belongs to the same etymon at all.

      [AK]
      But, that is to be waiting, due to e-o Ablaut in verb and noun stem,
      noun stem to be *H3robh-o > Greek he orophe and ho orophos 'roof',
      especially ho orophos 'rod, cane' that cover the roofs.

      The pattern of
      > assimilation in the alleged "labial + *n" sequence is also
      suspect,
      > given that *-pn- yields Alb. /m/, as in <gjumë> 'sleep'.

      [AK]
      I agree that sequence -bhn-/-pn- has as result Albanian -m-, like in
      gjumë 'sleep', amë 'river', lumë 'river' etc., but if it was
      followed by back vowel /*o/. In case that this sequence is followed
      by palatal glide /y/, like in mër-dhinj 'to freez' < *g'heim-yo, I
      think that *H3r.bh-n-yeH2 > Alb. <brinjë> is far from obvious to
      belong to this root, together with Greek erepho.
      >
      > Piotr

      Konushevci
    • Abdullah Konushevci
      ... Alb. ... Alb. ... ferre. ... root, ... present ... by *j. ... a ... *-pj-. ... ... *tHapH-. ... je/o- ... than ... From what I know, se
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 4 12:31 AM
        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > On 2006-07-04 00:19, Abdullah Konushevci wrote:
        >
        > > Really, but *bh > Greek ph: *bhH-n-yo > phainein 'to shine',
        Alb. <bënj>
        > > 'to do, to bring to light'; *bha-k'o > Greek phagos 'lentil',
        Alb.
        > > <bathë> 'broad bean'; *bher- > Greek pherein, Alb. bie, Lat.
        ferre.
        >
        > What do you take me for, Abdullah? :) *bH does give /pH/ in this
        root,
        > cf. the derivatives I quoted, such as <óropHos>. However, in the
        present
        > tense of the verb 'to cover' (*h1rebH-je/o-) the *bH was followed
        by *j.
        > The pre-Greek sequence *-pHj- developed regularly into /-pt-/ (via
        a
        > cluster with a prehistoric affricate), merging with the reflex of
        *-pj-.
        > As an independent illustration, consider <tápHos> 'grave' vs.
        <tHapto:>
        > 'bury'. Both these words derive from preforms with *dH..bH- >
        *tHapH-.
        > In the former, Grassmann's Law applies; in the latter (another *-
        je/o-
        > present stem) it doesn't, since the aspiration of the second stop
        > disappeared in the process of palatalisation, which was earlier
        than
        > Grassmann's Law in Greek.
        >
        > Piotr

        From what I know, se my previous message, we have'nt here to deal at
        all with ha-ha rule.

        Konushevci
      • Piotr Gasiorowski
        ... Actually, both and are attested in Ancient Greek. The first is a simple thematic present, the second a *-je/o- stem. ... The root is
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 4 1:34 AM
          On 2006-07-04 09:30, Abdullah Konushevci wrote:

          > First, I found that the verb is <erepho> 'to cover, to build',

          Actually, both <erépHo:> and <erépto:> are attested in Ancient Greek.
          The first is a simple thematic present, the second a *-je/o- stem.

          > future <erepso> and <erepsomai>, aor. <erepsa>; erepsimos 'belonging
          > to roof'. So, for sure, we have *H1rebh-o in verbal root.

          The root is *h1rebH-, right? So far, so good.

          > Initial /o/ is only found in "Rasmussen derivatives" with the
          >> O-fix, <óropHos, oropHé:> 'cover, roof' and must be due to Gk.
          > vowel
          >> assimilation, as in <odoús> and <ónoma>. It's far from obvious
          > that the
          >> Albanian word belongs to the same etymon at all.
          >
          > [AK]
          > But, that is to be waiting, due to e-o Ablaut in verb and noun stem,
          > noun stem to be *H3robh-o > Greek he orophe and ho orophos 'roof',
          > especially ho orophos 'rod, cane' that cover the roofs.

          There is no such thing as *h1/*h3 ablaut. *h1 remains *h1 whatever
          happens to the root vowel. To be honest, I'm not quite sure what should
          be expected in a root like *h1rebH- with an O-fix as the regular
          development. Jens claims that before a laryngeal or *r the O-fix
          remained a prefix and metathesis was blocked. But what about a complex
          onset with _both_ a laryngeal and a rhotic? Perhaps Jens will find the
          time to comment on this. However, what seems to me to be at least a
          possibility is metathesis with loss of the initial laryngeal, i.e.
          *O-h1r[&]bHo- > *robHo-, not unlike *O-h2w[&]lh1no- > *wolno- (Jens's
          own example). Gk. <óropHos> would then contain a genuine prothetic
          vowel, with the same quality as the root vowel, added to avoid a
          word-initial /r/. The analogy of erépto: ~ erépHo: (where the first
          vowel seems to echo the root vocalism) may have played a role.

          As an alternative explanation, we might simply assume *h1robHos,
          analogical after *tómh1os etc., becoming *eropHos > oropHos by
          assimilation. This, indeed, seems to be the mundane standard
          explanation, though it's less clever than the one above :)

          Piotr
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