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[tied] Re: Idea of PIEan expansion - "business takeovers" on major scale

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  • andrew_and_inge
    ... spread of IE? ... as I seem to remember-- a relatively recent split from J? I saw this in some publication. ... I is certainly seperate from J already in
    Message 1 of 16 , May 1, 2006
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      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > You're absolutely right, I'm referring only to that marker.
      > But in the interest of getting back on topic.
      > What are the Y & Mitochondrial DNA markers associated with the
      spread of IE?
      > How are they related to other markers?
      > E.g. Is I --associated with the Viking/Scandinavian expansion,
      as I seem to remember-- a relatively recent split from J? I saw this
      in some publication.
      > Is R assocated with pre-IE Western Europeans?

      I is certainly seperate from J already in prehistoric times, but it
      depends what you mean by relatively recent. I is only associated
      with the Norse in Britain and other North Sea countries where it
      appears to have entered recently. In Central and Eastern Europe I is
      widespread and diverse.

      In Western Europe, (France, Iberia, Britain, Ireland) on the other
      hand, R1b (M269) haplotypes are certainly most common and it seems
      certain that they were in pre IE times also.

      When you refer to "R" you are too non-specific I think. R haplotypes
      such as R1a are found as far East as Mongolia.

      Just to remind everyone, these clade names using letters are all
      referring to patrilineal "Y" DNA "families".

      Best Regards
      Andrew
    • andrew_and_inge
      ... My ... Europe and ... to ... the ... It is not clear whether you realise it, so I ll point it out: the Y chromosome, while it indeed does really show
      Message 2 of 16 , May 1, 2006
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        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "ehlsmith" <ehlsmith@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@>
        > wrote:
        > ..............
        > > Curiously, I myself have the J2 haplotype even though my Mc
        > Callister ancestors arrived in the US from Belfast c. 1750 or so.
        My
        > closest genetic relatives on websites, other than some other Mc
        > Callisters, are in Central Asia, the Middle East and Eastern
        Europe and
        > tend to be Kahane or Muslims.
        >
        > I'm afraid I'm being a nitpicker, but isn't it rather misleading
        to
        > say "closest genetic relatives" when comparing less than .00005 of
        the
        > genome?

        It is not clear whether you realise it, so I'll point it out: the Y
        chromosome, while it indeed does really show "relatedness" in the
        everyday sense (because in fact it carries very few working genes),
        is passed on in near perfect copies from father to son, and so it is
        very useful for trying to trace one ancestral line out of the
        thousands we have, and therefore it is useful for studying ancient
        migrations, especially males are felt to have played a key role.

        Mitochondrial DNA, similarly, is passed from mothers to children.

        Best Regards
        Andrew
      • ehlsmith
        ... I m certainly aware of the role of Y-chromosome DNA and mitochrondrial DNA and how their atypical patterns of transmission facilitate tracing lineages. I
        Message 3 of 16 , May 1, 2006
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          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "andrew_and_inge"
          <andrew.lancaster@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "ehlsmith" <ehlsmith@> wrote:
          > >
          > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@>
          > > wrote:
          > > ..............
          > > > Curiously, I myself have the J2 haplotype even though my Mc
          > > Callister ancestors arrived in the US from Belfast c. 1750 or so.
          > My
          > > closest genetic relatives on websites, other than some other Mc
          > > Callisters, are in Central Asia, the Middle East and Eastern
          > Europe and
          > > tend to be Kahane or Muslims.
          > >
          > > I'm afraid I'm being a nitpicker, but isn't it rather misleading
          > to
          > > say "closest genetic relatives" when comparing less than .00005 of
          > the
          > > genome?
          >
          > It is not clear whether you realise it, so I'll point it out: the Y
          > chromosome, while it indeed does really show "relatedness" in the
          > everyday sense (because in fact it carries very few working genes),
          > is passed on in near perfect copies from father to son, and so it is
          > very useful for trying to trace one ancestral line out of the
          > thousands we have, and therefore it is useful for studying ancient
          > migrations, especially males are felt to have played a key role.
          >
          > Mitochondrial DNA, similarly, is passed from mothers to children.


          I'm certainly aware of the role of Y-chromosome DNA and mitochrondrial
          DNA and how their atypical patterns of transmission facilitate tracing
          lineages. I raised the point though because far too often this can
          lead to people greatly exaggerating their significance. Yes they can
          trace a line back over 10,000 years but by my calculations an
          individual will have approximately 2 to the 300th power lineages going
          back that far. Tracing only 2 out of that vast number is not
          guaranteed to give you a very full picture of what really happened.
          And it is misleading to describe someone as a closest relative on the
          basis of such a tiny sampling- the odds against *any other* genes
          having come down that same lineage to the present are astronomically high.

          Regards,
          Ned Smith
        • alexandru_mg3
          ... so. ... of ... Y ... genes), ... is ... Useful? If we will name the alpha-father the original possesor of the Y- Chromozone = for sure you have his Y
          Message 4 of 16 , May 3, 2006
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            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "andrew_and_inge"
            <andrew.lancaster@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "ehlsmith" <ehlsmith@> wrote:
            > >
            > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@>
            > > wrote:
            > > ..............
            > > > Curiously, I myself have the J2 haplotype even though my Mc
            > > Callister ancestors arrived in the US from Belfast c. 1750 or
            so.
            > My
            > > closest genetic relatives on websites, other than some other Mc
            > > Callisters, are in Central Asia, the Middle East and Eastern
            > Europe and
            > > tend to be Kahane or Muslims.
            > >
            > > I'm afraid I'm being a nitpicker, but isn't it rather misleading
            > to
            > > say "closest genetic relatives" when comparing less than .00005
            of
            > the
            > > genome?
            >
            > It is not clear whether you realise it, so I'll point it out: the
            Y
            > chromosome, while it indeed does really show "relatedness" in the
            > everyday sense (because in fact it carries very few working
            genes),
            > is passed on in near perfect copies from father to son, and so it
            is
            > very useful for trying to trace one ancestral line out of the
            > thousands we have, and therefore it is useful for studying ancient
            > migrations, especially males are felt to have played a key role.
            >
            > Mitochondrial DNA, similarly, is passed from mothers to children.
            >
            > Best Regards
            > Andrew
            >

            Useful?

            If we will name "the alpha-father" the original possesor of the Y-
            Chromozone => for sure you have his Y Chromozone

            But you don't know anything of "the others 1000... fathers" of
            your "mathers" => and for sure their "traces" are present too in
            the "other Chromozones"

            So this Y-determination tell you Only that "your father has for sure
            that 'alpha-father' among your ancestors" and nothing more...

            See below a diagram of '5-generations' (125-150 years) "in which"
            where we already have "7 fathers" to imagine how many ancestors are
            not taken into account in relation with the other Chromozones

            1-----2------3-------4-------5
            Y1----|
            X1----Y1

            Y2----|
            X2----X2----Y1

            Y3----|
            X3----X3----X3------Y1
            Y3'---Y3'---|

            Y4-----|
            X4----X4----X4------X4------Y1
            Y4'---Y4'---| |
            |
            Y4''--------Y4''-----


            Marius
          • alexandru_mg3
            ... ... Mc ... Mc ... misleading ... than .00005 ... the ... the ... it ... ancient ... children. ... sure ... are ... So to assert that ...
            Message 5 of 16 , May 3, 2006
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              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "andrew_and_inge"
              > <andrew.lancaster@> wrote:
              > >
              > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "ehlsmith" <ehlsmith@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister
              <gabaroo6958@>
              > > > wrote:
              > > > ..............
              > > > > Curiously, I myself have the J2 haplotype even though my
              Mc
              > > > Callister ancestors arrived in the US from Belfast c. 1750 or
              > so.
              > > My
              > > > closest genetic relatives on websites, other than some other
              Mc
              > > > Callisters, are in Central Asia, the Middle East and Eastern
              > > Europe and
              > > > tend to be Kahane or Muslims.
              > > >
              > > > I'm afraid I'm being a nitpicker, but isn't it rather
              misleading
              > > to
              > > > say "closest genetic relatives" when comparing less
              than .00005
              > of
              > > the
              > > > genome?
              > >
              > > It is not clear whether you realise it, so I'll point it out:
              the
              > Y
              > > chromosome, while it indeed does really show "relatedness" in
              the
              > > everyday sense (because in fact it carries very few working
              > genes),
              > > is passed on in near perfect copies from father to son, and so
              it
              > is
              > > very useful for trying to trace one ancestral line out of the
              > > thousands we have, and therefore it is useful for studying
              ancient
              > > migrations, especially males are felt to have played a key role.
              > >
              > > Mitochondrial DNA, similarly, is passed from mothers to
              children.
              > >
              > > Best Regards
              > > Andrew
              > >
              >
              > Useful?
              >
              > If we will name "the alpha-father" the original possesor of the Y-
              > Chromozone => for sure you have his Y Chromozone
              >
              > But you don't know anything of "the others 1000... fathers" of
              > your "mathers" => and for sure their "traces" are present too in
              > the "other Chromozones"
              >
              > So this Y-determination tell you Only that "your father has for
              sure
              > that 'alpha-father' among your ancestors" and nothing more...
              >
              > See below a diagram of '5-generations' (125-150 years) "in which"
              > where we already have "7 fathers" to imagine how many ancestors
              are
              > not taken into account in relation with the other Chromozones
              >
              > 1-----2------3-------4-------5
              > Y1----|
              > X1----Y1
              >
              > Y2----|
              > X2----X2----Y1
              >
              > Y3----|
              > X3----X3----X3------Y1
              > Y3'---Y3'---|
              >
              > Y4-----|
              > X4----X4----X4------X4------Y1
              > Y4'---Y4'---| |
              > |
              > Y4''--------Y4''-----
              >
              >
              > Marius
              >

              So to assert that

              "
              > My
              > > closest genetic relatives on websites, other than some other Mc
              > > Callisters, are in Central Asia, the Middle East and Eastern
              > Europe and
              > > tend to be Kahane or Muslims.
              "

              based on your Y-Chromozone is completely false

              You need to write in place:

              " At least one of my ancestors, among the total of about 1000xxx
              that I have ......other than some other Mc Callisters, are in
              Central Asia, the Middle East and Eastern Europe and tend to be
              Kahane or Muslims."

              What kind of 'global' migration of your ancestors could be indicated
              by this I ignore :) (-> maybe if 1 mil. people in the same region
              has the same Y-Chromozone this for sure can indicate something...but
              to applicate this to a single persons means nothing...)

              Marius
            • alexandru_mg3
              ... ... Mc ... Mc ... misleading ... than .00005 ... the ... the ... it ... ancient ... children. ... sure ... are ... So to assert that ...
              Message 6 of 16 , May 3, 2006
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                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "andrew_and_inge"
                > <andrew.lancaster@> wrote:
                > >
                > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "ehlsmith" <ehlsmith@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister
                <gabaroo6958@>
                > > > wrote:
                > > > ..............
                > > > > Curiously, I myself have the J2 haplotype even though my
                Mc
                > > > Callister ancestors arrived in the US from Belfast c. 1750 or
                > so.
                > > My
                > > > closest genetic relatives on websites, other than some other
                Mc
                > > > Callisters, are in Central Asia, the Middle East and Eastern
                > > Europe and
                > > > tend to be Kahane or Muslims.
                > > >
                > > > I'm afraid I'm being a nitpicker, but isn't it rather
                misleading
                > > to
                > > > say "closest genetic relatives" when comparing less
                than .00005
                > of
                > > the
                > > > genome?
                > >
                > > It is not clear whether you realise it, so I'll point it out:
                the
                > Y
                > > chromosome, while it indeed does really show "relatedness" in
                the
                > > everyday sense (because in fact it carries very few working
                > genes),
                > > is passed on in near perfect copies from father to son, and so
                it
                > is
                > > very useful for trying to trace one ancestral line out of the
                > > thousands we have, and therefore it is useful for studying
                ancient
                > > migrations, especially males are felt to have played a key role.
                > >
                > > Mitochondrial DNA, similarly, is passed from mothers to
                children.
                > >
                > > Best Regards
                > > Andrew
                > >
                >
                > Useful?
                >
                > If we will name "the alpha-father" the original possesor of the Y-
                > Chromozone => for sure you have his Y Chromozone
                >
                > But you don't know anything of "the others 1000... fathers" of
                > your "mathers" => and for sure their "traces" are present too in
                > the "other Chromozones"
                >
                > So this Y-determination tell you Only that "your father has for
                sure
                > that 'alpha-father' among your ancestors" and nothing more...
                >
                > See below a diagram of '5-generations' (125-150 years) "in which"
                > where we already have "7 fathers" to imagine how many ancestors
                are
                > not taken into account in relation with the other Chromozones
                >
                > 1-----2------3-------4-------5
                > Y1----|
                > X1----Y1
                >
                > Y2----|
                > X2----X2----Y1
                >
                > Y3----|
                > X3----X3----X3------Y1
                > Y3'---Y3'---|
                >
                > Y4-----|
                > X4----X4----X4------X4------Y1
                > Y4'---Y4'---| |
                > |
                > Y4''--------Y4''-----
                >
                >
                > Marius
                >

                So to assert that

                "
                > My
                > > closest genetic relatives on websites, other than some other Mc
                > > Callisters, are in Central Asia, the Middle East and Eastern
                > Europe and
                > > tend to be Kahane or Muslims.
                "

                based on your Y-Chromozone is completely false

                You need to write in place:

                " At least one of my ancestors, among the total of about 1000xxx
                that I have ......other than some other Mc Callisters, are in
                Central Asia, the Middle East and Eastern Europe and tend to be
                Kahane or Muslims."

                What kind of 'global' migration of your ancestors could be indicated
                by this I ignore :) (-> maybe if 1 mil. people in the same region
                has the same Y-Chromozone this for sure can indicate something...but
                to applicate this to a single persons means nothing...)

                Marius
              • andrew_and_inge
                ... The subject of this list is of course Indo European, and therefore the relevance here is trying to track population movements over time in a broad way (and
                Message 7 of 16 , May 10, 2006
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                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@...>
                  wrote:

                  > Useful?
                  ...
                  > See below a diagram of '5-generations' (125-150 years) "in which"
                  > where we already have "7 fathers" to imagine how many ancestors are
                  > not taken into account in relation with the other Chromozones

                  The subject of this list is of course Indo European, and therefore
                  the relevance here is trying to track population movements over time
                  in a broad way (and not simply relatedness of different people).

                  With that in mind it is important to realise that in such studies,
                  not only Y-DNA and mt-DNA studies are done, but also studies
                  of "autosomal" stretches of DNA from the recombinative chromosomes.
                  This is possible because even when DNA is combined (mixing the DNA of
                  the parents) this is normally transferred in quite stable chunks.

                  So while there are famous discussions about "Y DNA Adam" and "mt DNA
                  Eve" the same can be done (a family tree for all mankind, with one
                  common ancestor) for each of the stable chunks of autosomal DNA.

                  For someone trying to reconstruct unwritten history, for example
                  population movements in Eastern Europe, the same technique is then
                  applied to trying to find the ancestor of the first person showing a
                  particular mutation.

                  Best Regards
                  Andrew
                • andrew_and_inge
                  ... This seems correct. But more generally: the more data you work with the more useful the conclusions, and one type of data is the level of detail checked in
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 10, 2006
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                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@...>
                    wrote:

                    > What kind of 'global' migration of your ancestors could be indicated
                    > by this I ignore :) (-> maybe if 1 mil. people in the same region
                    > has the same Y-Chromozone this for sure can indicate something...but
                    > to applicate this to a single persons means nothing...)

                    This seems correct. But more generally: the more data you work with the
                    more useful the conclusions, and one type of data is the level of
                    detail checked in the DNA. No two people have exactly the same DNA of
                    course, and therefore it is possible to form a family tree of
                    mutations, so to speak.

                    For example it is not very interesting to say (as some people do now
                    that these tests are widely available) "I am R1a like many people in
                    central Eurasia" because R1a must have been founded many thousands of
                    years before any culture we know about in any detail and is also quite
                    common in many parts of Europe including the Balkans and Norway. But
                    what is more interesting is to look at the more recent splits within
                    R1a. If you do this, then the Norwegian R1a tends to show far less
                    diversity, seemingly because it represents a branching from the more
                    diverse inner Eurasian population, while the R1a in Britain tends to
                    look like a sub-branch of the Norwegian branch. Two migrations which
                    might explain this would be the original settlement of Scandinavia by
                    people from southern Russia, and the colonisation of parts of England
                    by Germanic peoples in the Dark Ages.

                    If the Scandiavian DNA (including not only R1a, but also other more
                    Eastern looking types like I1a) really represents that of the first
                    Indo European speakers, it is interesting that it is quite different
                    from typical Western European DNA, which is for example quite similar
                    to that of non Indo European speaking Basques.

                    I hope this manages to keep us reasonably close to the accepted subject
                    matter for this list.

                    Best Regards
                    Andrew
                  • mkelkar2003
                    ... are ... time ... of ...
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 11, 2006
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                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "andrew_and_inge"
                      <andrew.lancaster@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@>
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      > > Useful?
                      > ...
                      > > See below a diagram of '5-generations' (125-150 years) "in which"
                      > > where we already have "7 fathers" to imagine how many ancestors
                      are
                      > > not taken into account in relation with the other Chromozones
                      >
                      > The subject of this list is of course Indo European, and therefore
                      > the relevance here is trying to track population movements over
                      time
                      > in a broad way (and not simply relatedness of different people).
                      >
                      > With that in mind it is important to realise that in such studies,
                      > not only Y-DNA and mt-DNA studies are done, but also studies
                      > of "autosomal" stretches of DNA from the recombinative chromosomes.
                      > This is possible because even when DNA is combined (mixing the DNA
                      of
                      > the parents) this is normally transferred in quite stable chunks.
                      >
                      > Best Regards
                      > Andrew
                      >

                      <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_and_Archaeogenetics_of_South_As
                      ia>
                    • mkelkar2003
                      Scroll down to the middle of the page for Well s interview by CNN s A. Cooper (Feb 22, 2006).
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 11, 2006
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                        Scroll down to the middle of the page for Well's interview by CNN's
                        A. Cooper (Feb 22, 2006).

                        <http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0602/22/acd.01.html>

                        "WELLS: This is the public side of the project. So anybody around the
                        world can send off for one of these kits, go on to our Web site,
                        learn about the project and get their own DNA tested, yes.

                        COOPER: So it's $100 for the kit.

                        WELLS: That's right. That's right. "

                        "COOPER: Well, if you're interested in learning more about the
                        project or if you want to participate, go to National Geographic's
                        Web site. It's www.nationalgeographic.com. Click on the Genographic
                        Project link."

                        "R1A originated probably in southern Russia or Ukraine around 10,000
                        to 15,000 years ago, during the last ice age. And at the end of the
                        ice age, the population started to expand (Wells, Feb 2006)."




                        M. Kelkar
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