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Re: [tied] H4 - identity? Existance?

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  • Exu Yangi
    ... There certainly was *something* that, in identical contexts, gave two different results in Hittitle. There are many cases where we expet to find a
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 4, 2006
      >
      >--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "P&G" <G&P@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > >Are there other possible
      > > >identities for h4? Does h4 actually exist, and if not, where does
      >the
      > > >"h" in Albanian come from?
      > >
      > > I suspect the only source for h4 is the desire of linguists to
      >explain why
      > > some apparent h2 survive in Hittite while in other cases it
      >vanishes. Is
      > > there anything outside Hittite that would compel us to suggest
      >h4? If we
      > > could show that some Albanian initial h correspond precisely to
      >cases where
      > > Hittite loses h2, then you might be on to something. But I
      >suspect you'll
      > > only be able to find one or two instances at best.
      > >
      > > So my advice is to make sure we have to believe in it, before we
      >try to work
      > > out what it was.
      > >
      > > Peter
      >************
      >Due to the respect I have for Peter, I just like to reply to back
      >him up, based in one very good study, that one could also found in
      >the Internet under the title ���Albanian Tocharian B Glossary���,
      >written probably from experienced scholar, but whose name is not
      >mentioned and who refers too much to Adams. What I like to point out
      >is exactly the fact that author gives us no more then two examples:
      >
      >Albanian ftoh `cool off' (<*h4eps-top-eh1-sk��e/o-) from PIE *top-
      > ���firebrand���: Skt tapati ���is warm, burns���: Av tapaiti ���is
      >warm���: Lat
      >tepeo: ���am warm���: Hittite tapassa ���fever, heat���. I will add here
      >also Sl topao/topla/toplo ���warm���, toplina ���warmth���, istopiti ���to
      >melt��� etc.
      >
      >H4org���hiyeha:> Alb <herdhe> ���testicle���. It is to be noticed that
      >*g���h yields /d/, that preceded by /r/ ends in /dh/: MIr
      >uirgge ���id.��� < *H4org���hiyeha:.Av &r&zi ���id.���.
      >

      There certainly was *something* that, in identical contexts, gave two
      different results in Hittitle. There are many cases where we expet to find a
      laryngeal, and it just isn't there, and others where we eon't expect to find
      one, and it is there. H4, if it exsted at all, was probably one of the early
      casualties in the loss of laryngeals.

      And you are absolutely right -- if you ignore that, then here is no proof
      since it probably happenned in pre-anatolian PIE.
    • P&G
      ... I ve never worked with Hittite texts, so forgive this question if it s obvious. Are these examples which unexpectedly lack , or which unexpectedly
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 5, 2006
        > There certainly was *something* that, in identical contexts, gave two
        > different results in Hittitle.

        I've never worked with Hittite texts, so forgive this question if it's
        obvious. Are these examples which unexpectedly lack <h>, or which
        unexpectedly have <h>, consistently written? Or are they known only in
        single instances? Or is the usage inconsistent? I'm guessing there are
        multiple instances, and they are consistent in spelling, otherwise there
        would be little debate, but could some kind person confirm that?

        Peter
      • tgpedersen
        ... two ... to find a ... expect to find ... the early ... Myself I d get into trouble with my claim that the PIE water word *(H)ap-/*(H)akW- was related to
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 6, 2006
          > There certainly was *something* that, in identical contexts, gave
          two
          > different results in Hittitle. There are many cases where we expet
          to find a
          > laryngeal, and it just isn't there, and others where we eon't
          expect to find
          > one, and it is there. H4, if it exsted at all, was probably one of
          the early
          > casualties in the loss of laryngeals.
          >

          Myself I'd get into trouble with my claim that the PIE water word
          *(H)ap-/*(H)akW- was related to PIE direction adverbs (preverbs,
          prepositions), since in the former sense Hittite has h_ap- with
          laryngeal, in the latter ap-. But if I claim they are both loans and
          wanderwörter, the trouble goes away; they might have been loaned
          from separate donors.


          Torsten
        • alexandru_mg3
          ... expet ... of ... and ... I really doubt this fact in relation with the water word: knowing the kW/a,o p is a phonetic transformation that happens in
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 6, 2006
            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > > There certainly was *something* that, in identical contexts, gave
            > two
            > > different results in Hittitle. There are many cases where we
            expet
            > to find a
            > > laryngeal, and it just isn't there, and others where we eon't
            > expect to find
            > > one, and it is there. H4, if it exsted at all, was probably one
            of
            > the early
            > > casualties in the loss of laryngeals.
            > >
            >
            > Myself I'd get into trouble with my claim that the PIE water word
            > *(H)ap-/*(H)akW- was related to PIE direction adverbs (preverbs,
            > prepositions), since in the former sense Hittite has h_ap- with
            > laryngeal, in the latter ap-. But if I claim they are both loans
            and
            > wanderwörter, the trouble goes away; they might have been loaned
            > from separate donors.
            >
            >
            > Torsten
            >

            I really doubt this fact in relation with the 'water' word: knowing
            the kW/a,o > p is a phonetic transformation that happens in many
            languages (see as example Ancient Greek, Celtic-P dialects and maybe
            also Romanian ex. quatro~patru '4') this seems for me an internal PIE
            evolution that maybe happened in PIE Pre-Historic times

            Something like:
            *h2ekW/{-o(H),(H)o,-(e)h2,-(e)h3} > *h2ep- and h2ekW- otherwise

            Because the root h2ep- 'water' could be identified also in some
            Celtic and Latin words (ex. amnis etc..) seems not to be a PIE
            (later) dialectal transformation (at least is not related to the PIE
            dialectal split taht generated the known branches)

            Marius
          • tgpedersen
            ... gave ... one ... word ... loaned ... knowing ... maybe ... PIE ... If it s PIE pre-historic, ie. pre-PIE, then it s not internal PIE. Besides, the u- of
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 7, 2006
              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > > There certainly was *something* that, in identical contexts,
              gave
              > > two
              > > > different results in Hittitle. There are many cases where we
              > expet
              > > to find a
              > > > laryngeal, and it just isn't there, and others where we eon't
              > > expect to find
              > > > one, and it is there. H4, if it exsted at all, was probably
              one
              > of
              > > the early
              > > > casualties in the loss of laryngeals.
              > > >
              > >
              > > Myself I'd get into trouble with my claim that the PIE water
              word
              > > *(H)ap-/*(H)akW- was related to PIE direction adverbs (preverbs,
              > > prepositions), since in the former sense Hittite has h_ap- with
              > > laryngeal, in the latter ap-. But if I claim they are both loans
              > and
              > > wanderwörter, the trouble goes away; they might have been
              loaned
              > > from separate donors.
              > >
              > >
              > > Torsten
              > >
              >
              > I really doubt this fact in relation with the 'water' word:
              knowing
              > the kW/a,o > p is a phonetic transformation that happens in many
              > languages (see as example Ancient Greek, Celtic-P dialects and
              maybe
              > also Romanian ex. quatro~patru '4') this seems for me an internal
              PIE
              > evolution that maybe happened in PIE Pre-Historic times

              If it's PIE pre-historic, ie. pre-PIE, then it's not internal PIE.
              Besides, the u- of Lith. upe "water" would be difficult to explain,
              unless one assumes a loan from the (Semitic?) substrate ar-/ur-
              language.


              Torsten
            • C. Darwin Goranson
              ... gave ... one ... word ... loaned ... knowing ... maybe ... PIE ... PIE ... Why couldn t it have travelled to Italy from Greece, then spread through the
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 22, 2006
                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > > There certainly was *something* that, in identical contexts,
                gave
                > > two
                > > > different results in Hittitle. There are many cases where we
                > expet
                > > to find a
                > > > laryngeal, and it just isn't there, and others where we eon't
                > > expect to find
                > > > one, and it is there. H4, if it exsted at all, was probably
                one
                > of
                > > the early
                > > > casualties in the loss of laryngeals.
                > > >
                > >
                > > Myself I'd get into trouble with my claim that the PIE water
                word
                > > *(H)ap-/*(H)akW- was related to PIE direction adverbs (preverbs,
                > > prepositions), since in the former sense Hittite has h_ap- with
                > > laryngeal, in the latter ap-. But if I claim they are both loans
                > and
                > > wanderwörter, the trouble goes away; they might have been
                loaned
                > > from separate donors.
                > >
                > >
                > > Torsten
                > >
                >
                > I really doubt this fact in relation with the 'water' word:
                knowing
                > the kW/a,o > p is a phonetic transformation that happens in many
                > languages (see as example Ancient Greek, Celtic-P dialects and
                maybe
                > also Romanian ex. quatro~patru '4') this seems for me an internal
                PIE
                > evolution that maybe happened in PIE Pre-Historic times
                >
                > Something like:
                > *h2ekW/{-o(H),(H)o,-(e)h2,-(e)h3} > *h2ep- and h2ekW- otherwise
                >
                > Because the root h2ep- 'water' could be identified also in some
                > Celtic and Latin words (ex. amnis etc..) seems not to be a PIE
                > (later) dialectal transformation (at least is not related to the
                PIE
                > dialectal split taht generated the known branches)
                >
                > Marius

                Why couldn't it have travelled to Italy from Greece, then spread
                through the Celtic lands?
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