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Re: Integrating linguistics, archaeology, genetics and paleoclimatology

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  • tgpedersen
    ... ... European ... IE ... the take- ... population. ... nomads elite ... the ... Linguistics, of course. No, seriously, some culture would have
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 1, 2006
      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "mkelkar2003" <smykelkar@c...>
      wrote:
      >
      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Jens Elmegård Rasmussen
      <elme@h...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jdcroft@y...> wrote:
      > >
      > > > Certainly M17 appears to be the Indo-European marker,
      > > > whilst M343 R1b appears to be the marker of the pre-Indo-
      European
      > > > substrate in Western Europe.
      > >
      > > This seems to be incompatible with the widespread view that the
      IE
      > > languages did not spread by massive migrations, but merely by
      the take-
      > > over of a new elite that imposed its language on the local
      population.
      >
      > What would make these pathetic Indo-European speaking
      nomads "elite"
      > if they did not possess overwhelming numbers or military muscle?
      >
      > M. Kelkar
      >
      >
      > > Can that be true? Did the locals not propagate their genes? Did
      the
      > > IEs just wipe them out? Interesting questions - any answers?
      > >
      > > Jens
      > >
      >

      Linguistics, of course.
      No, seriously, some culture would have to be first with a worked-out
      theory of the grammar of its language, although orally transmitted.
      Such a language would be superior for mnemotechnic feats, such as
      would be needed to preserve various knowledge, and would enjoy
      enormous prestige.


      Torsten
    • Gordon Selway
      Sorry to be moving off-topic, but in connection with Jens point, how are the genes transmitted? By male descent, by female descent, or both? There have been
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 1, 2006
        Sorry to be moving off-topic, but in connection
        with Jens' point, how are the genes transmitted?
        By male descent, by female descent, or both?

        There have been reports that the Ireland and UK
        gene pool has a large male component in the east
        of England which can plausibly be linked with
        mainland Europe, and therefore putatively with
        the 'Anglo-Saxon conquests', but there is little
        evidence of that component in Ireland or Wales,
        or in parts of the Welsh marcher counties and
        parts of Scotland, while it distinctly less
        frequent in what was once Wessex (which has an
        overlap with the marcher counties) than in the
        rest of England. The notion underlay a BBC TV
        series called 'The Blood of the Vikings' which
        may have been referred to on this list.

        The marcher counties concerned (Herefordshire,
        parts of Shropshire, Worcestershire and
        Gloucestershire, as I understand it) have of
        course been mostly English-speaking since the
        seventh and eighth centuries CE

        In terms of the appropriate topics on this list,
        perhaps this is beginning to conflate colour and
        extension.

        Gordon
        <gordonselway@...>

        At 10:16 last night Jens Elmegård Rasmussen wrote:
        >--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jdcroft@y...> wrote:
        > >Certainly M17 appears to be the Indo-European
        >marker, whilst M343 R1b appears to be the
        >marker >of the pre-Indo-European substrate in
        >Western Europe.
        >
        >This seems to be incompatible with the
        >widespread view that the IE languages did not
        >spread by massive migrations, but merely by the
        >take-over of a new elite that imposed its
        >language on the local population.
        >Can that be true? Did the locals not propagate
        >their genes? Did the IEs just wipe them out?
        >Interesting questions - any answers?
        >
        >Jens
      • george knysh
        ... ****GK: I don t believe such a categorical either/or solution is either plausible or helpful. The best working hypothesis seems to me to be much more
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 1, 2006
          --- Gordon Selway <gordonselway@...> wrote:

          >
          > At 10:16 last night Jens Elmegård Rasmussen wrote:
          > >--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "John"
          > <jdcroft@y...> wrote:
          > > >Certainly M17 appears to be the Indo-European
          > >marker, whilst M343 R1b appears to be the
          > >marker >of the pre-Indo-European substrate in
          > >Western Europe.
          > >
          > >This seems to be incompatible with the
          > >widespread view that the IE languages did not
          > >spread by massive migrations, but merely by the
          > >take-over of a new elite that imposed its
          > >language on the local population.

          ****GK: I don't believe such a categorical either/or
          solution is either plausible or helpful. The best
          working hypothesis seems to me to be much more
          flexible. In other words "it depends", and one
          situation of IE spread and change may vary from
          another. Sometimes it might indeed have merely been
          the activity of a relatively narrow if powerful and
          influential elite (and there are various scenarios of
          this, including a "mimetic" one, which involves a
          prior elite adopting IE from its allies, and then
          spreading it with little or no accompanying migration
          of any sort.) Sometimes that might have been
          accompanied by a minor "popular" migration. Sometimes
          this migration might have been larger. Sometimes quite
          large. We should look at each particular situation
          from all angles (genetic, linguistic, archaeological,
          folkloric, etc.) with no hard preconceptions.*****


          __________________________________________________
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        • mkelkar2003
          ... Growing up in India which is today classified as a thrid world country I never for even a second, thought that the people from Russian/Urkranian steppes
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 1, 2006
            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@y...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > --- Gordon Selway <gordonselway@g...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > At 10:16 last night Jens Elmegård Rasmussen wrote:
            > > >--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "John"
            > > <jdcroft@y...> wrote:
            > > > >Certainly M17 appears to be the Indo-European
            > > >marker, whilst M343 R1b appears to be the
            > > >marker >of the pre-Indo-European substrate in
            > > >Western Europe.
            > > >
            > > >This seems to be incompatible with the
            > > >widespread view that the IE languages did not
            > > >spread by massive migrations, but merely by the
            > > >take-over of a new elite that imposed its
            > > >language on the local population.
            >
            > ****GK: I don't believe such a categorical either/or
            > solution is either plausible or helpful. The best
            > working hypothesis seems to me to be much more
            > flexible. In other words "it depends", and one
            > situation of IE spread and change may vary from
            > another. Sometimes it might indeed have merely been
            > the activity of a relatively narrow if powerful and
            > influential elite (and there are various scenarios of
            > this, including a "mimetic" one, which involves a
            > prior elite adopting IE from its allies,


            Growing up in India which is today classified as a thrid world country
            I never for even a second, thought that the people from
            Russian/Urkranian steppes were elite, or more populous, or powerful in
            any sense of these terms. I never considered learning their language
            or finding out about their religion and culture, or ever visting their
            land. It is very hard to imagine why things would have been any
            different 5000 years ago.

            The Soviets could not even get pass a rag tag Taliban "army" in the
            80's. If they ever succeeded in crossing the Hindukush they would have
            met a highly trained army armed with nuclear weapons.

            But seriously, the Vedic culture/civilization is the only continously
            practiced tradition in the "Indo-European" world that has been
            supported by a large fertile landmass, favorable climate, agriculture,
            writing (the undeciphered "Indus" script), etc. etc. to have a shot
            at an elite status. Wandering nomads just do not orally preserve
            texts for thousands and thousands of years as if they were tape
            recorded yesterday.


            M. Kelkar


            and then
            > spreading it with little or no accompanying migration
            > of any sort.) Sometimes that might have been
            > accompanied by a minor "popular" migration. Sometimes
            > this migration might have been larger. Sometimes quite
            > large. We should look at each particular situation
            > from all angles (genetic, linguistic, archaeological,
            > folkloric, etc.) with no hard preconceptions.*****
            >
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            > http://mail.yahoo.com
            >
          • tgpedersen
            ... They are usually mixed, but if one wants to trace male or female inheritance, check the genes on the Y chromosome and mitochondrial genes, respectively,
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 1, 2006
              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Selway <gordonselway@g...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Sorry to be moving off-topic, but in connection
              > with Jens' point, how are the genes transmitted?
              > By male descent, by female descent, or both?
              >
              > There have been reports that the Ireland and UK
              > gene pool has a large male component in the east
              > of England which can plausibly be linked with
              > mainland Europe, and therefore putatively with
              > the 'Anglo-Saxon conquests', but there is little
              > evidence of that component in Ireland or Wales,
              > or in parts of the Welsh marcher counties and
              > parts of Scotland, while it distinctly less
              > frequent in what was once Wessex (which has an
              > overlap with the marcher counties) than in the
              > rest of England. The notion underlay a BBC TV
              > series called 'The Blood of the Vikings' which
              > may have been referred to on this list.
              >
              > The marcher counties concerned (Herefordshire,
              > parts of Shropshire, Worcestershire and
              > Gloucestershire, as I understand it) have of
              > course been mostly English-speaking since the
              > seventh and eighth centuries CE
              >

              They are usually mixed, but if one wants to trace male or female
              inheritance, check the genes on the Y chromosome and mitochondrial
              genes, respectively, which aren't.


              Torsten
            • pielewe
              ... It is these very facts that attract unscrupulous outsiders. A close parallel is provided by Mesopotamia, where the language of those who created urban
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 1, 2006
                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "mkelkar2003" <smykelkar@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > the Vedic culture/civilization is the only continously
                > practiced tradition in the "Indo-European" world that has been
                > supported by a large fertile landmass, favorable climate, agriculture,
                > writing (the undeciphered "Indus" script), etc. etc. to have a shot
                > at an elite status.


                It is these very facts that attract unscrupulous outsiders. A close
                parallel is provided by Mesopotamia, where the language of those who
                created urban civilization was eventually replaced by the language of
                enterprising shepherds who came in from the desert and took matter in
                hand. And went on developing the civilization they had disturbed. After
                which their language yielded to the language of newcomers who took
                charge. There is an interesting contrast between the continuity of
                Mesopotamian civilization and the numerous discontinuities of the
                linguistic situation.

                The archeologists' use of the word "elite" is highly misleading. Any
                group of ruffians who takes charge of affairs thereby becomes "elite"
                in the archeological sense. This runs counter to everyday usage, where
                the word elite tends to be reserved for those with "old money", with
                above-average education and similar accomplishments. If organized crime
                takes over a town, they are "elite" in the archeologists' sense. It is
                in my view an extremely regrettible choice of terminology.


                The essential point is the following. Life in the Eurasian steppe areas
                puts a premium on the type of skills that come in useful if one wants
                to exploit sedentary populations. Neither language nor genes has
                anything to do with it.



                Willem
              • tgpedersen
                ... country ... powerful in ... language ... their ... We gathered that much. ... And that s why there can t have been an emigration from India. ... Who s
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 2, 2006
                  >
                  > Growing up in India which is today classified as a thrid world
                  country
                  > I never for even a second, thought that the people from
                  > Russian/Urkranian steppes were elite, or more populous, or
                  powerful in
                  > any sense of these terms. I never considered learning their
                  language
                  > or finding out about their religion and culture, or ever visting
                  their
                  > land.

                  We gathered that much.


                  >It is very hard to imagine why things would have been any
                  > different 5000 years ago.

                  And that's why there can't have been an emigration from India.


                  > The Soviets could not even get pass a rag tag Taliban "army" in the
                  > 80's.
                  > If they ever succeeded in crossing the Hindukush they would have
                  > met a highly trained army armed with nuclear weapons.

                  Who's being prejudiced now?


                  > But seriously, the Vedic culture/civilization is the only
                  continously
                  > practiced tradition in the "Indo-European" world that has been
                  > supported by a large fertile landmass, favorable climate,
                  agriculture,
                  > writing (the undeciphered "Indus" script), etc. etc. to have a
                  shot
                  > at an elite status.

                  If it makes you feel good to think of yourself as belonging to an
                  elite, by all means do.


                  > Wandering nomads just do not orally preserve
                  > texts for thousands and thousands of years as if they were tape
                  > recorded yesterday.


                  How do you know that, with your professed disinterest in anything
                  that has to do with them?


                  Torsten
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