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Re: [tied] Re: Albanian pre and Romanian prada

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  • Piotr Gasiorowski
    ... The nasalised form is cited by Demiraj and Cimochowski; the latter also mentions Old Albanian (which I haven t been able to verify, since he has no
    Message 1 of 154 , Dec 2 7:45 AM
      Abdullah Konushevci wrote:

      > As far as I know, nasalized forms are characteristic only for zero-grade
      > forms, so I can't see how to derive Alb. <re>, without any trace of
      > nasal, from *rung-. Indeed, suffixed form *reug-n-yo should have yielded
      > Alb. <(g.) v-rânj> 'to beconme dark', Alb. Geg <i v-rân-të> and Tosk <i
      > vrër-të>, as well as in <vrân-si> 'cloud'. You may ask anyone you like
      > that there is no articulatory distinction between Alb. <re> 'you fell'
      > and <re> 'cloud'.

      The nasalised form is cited by Demiraj and Cimochowski; the latter also
      mentions Old Albanian <ren> (which I haven't been able to verify, since
      he has no reference to the source of the form). I'll do more checking later.

      > Furthermore its certainty is questioned too. Curiously you have no
      > objection about Alb. <be> 'oath', derived from *bhoidh-eH2 (cf. Sl.
      > beda, Lat. foedus), but such possibility you deny for <re> and <pre>.

      It's just a question of the most plausible derivation, given the
      available data. I don't object to the standard etymology of <be> because
      there is no better explanation known to me.

    • tolgs001
      [fullquote deleted] ... I.e. in Ottoman Turkish, right? (Well, it might be seen as a parallel to what s in Hungarian u o, u-Umlaut o-umlaut.) ... In
      Message 154 of 154 , Dec 6 6:52 AM
        [fullquote deleted]

        >It's Turkic characteristic to change /u/ > /o/: Arabic <burani>
        >'some kind of meat' > Turk. <borani>, Persian <bustan> 'garden'
        >> Turkish <bostan>, Persian <buza> 'some kinde of drink' > Turk.
        ><boza>, Per. <shurba> 'soup' > Turk. <�orba>, Persian <dust>
        >'friend' (like in Dust-e man 'My friend') > Turkish <dost>,
        >etc., etc.

        I.e. in "Ottoman" Turkish, right? (Well, it might be seen as
        a parallel to what's in Hungarian u > o, u-Umlaut > o-umlaut.)

        >So, primary forms are always with <u>, until in Romanian and
        >Albanian exists tendency to change /o/ to /u/ where first vocal
        >is followed by nasals /m/, /n/, /gn/

        In Romanian additionally or rather the tendency in these 3
        environments to convert both u and o (and a) into circumflexed-i
        (or circumflexed-a), which in Russian is written bI and in
        Turkish as an i without the dot. (I can type them but now
        I'm using my new Firefox 1.5 browser, and I'm afraid it won't
        render the nonASCII fonts in the proper way.)

        >and has nothing to do with any kind of Umlaut.

        In Romance idioms/dialects in the Southern regions of
        former "Romania" (I mean the ancient realm lead by SPQR), the
        tendency is o > u; in various phon. environments Romanian can
        be seen as the number one in this "top", ahead of the Sicily
        and Sardinian isles and of Portugal. In the neighboring,
        germanic world, there is IMHO a similar tendency in the South
        rather u and u-Umlaut, in the North rather o and o-Umlaut -
        the "border" running across Germany; cf. Mueller-Moeller,
        gruen-groen (incl. Gr�nland), Fuesse (& Fiass)-Foe:ss/Foe:t,
        Blut-Bloot/Blood; Blum(e)-Bloom; pan-German & North-German
        komm! ("come (on/here)") vs. Bavarian+Austrian kumm!
        ("Lieber Gott, mach mich stumm, dass ich net nach Dachau
        kumm!" was the popular adage betw. 1933-1945, as the
        average German knew of the 1st concentration camp.)

        And cf. pan+standard German was ("what") [vas], South
        German (esp. Bavarian+Austrain) wos [vos, vo:s], and
        Yiddish wus [vus, vu:s]. (North of a Cologne-Berlin line,
        the dialectal "what" is wat [vat, va:t].)


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