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[tied] Re: Albanian pre and Romanian prada

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  • m_iacomi
    ... Intervocalic or may disappear in Balkan Romance, as a well known evolution (caballus cal, pavimentum pãmânt, *expavorere speria, cubitus
    Message 1 of 154 , Dec 1, 2005
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      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Wordingham" wrote:

      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@y...>
      > wrote:
      >
      >> 2. And another question for you : how Latin *abellona (<
      >> abellana [nux] see DEX) could give Romanian aluna ?
      >>
      >> Is somehow via b>zero and next ae>a ?
      >
      > Yes. Intervocalic Latin <b> and <v> usually drops in Romanian.
      > Consequent contraction of the vowels to a single vowel is common -
      > I don't claim to know the precise details.

      Intervocalic <b> or <v> may disappear in Balkan Romance, as a well
      known evolution (caballus > cal, pavimentum > pãmânt, *expavorere >
      speria, cubitus > cot; stress plays also some role). The resulting
      hiatus (not diphthong) is usually reduced (in Balkan Romance, not in
      Latin) to the open vowel (/a/), if unstressed.
      The stress issue is still to be remembered when dealing with vowels,
      that's why all "examples" for /ae/ > /*aa/ > /a/ (already fallacious
      for other reasons) cannot be taken into account for stressed vocalism
      as in praeda > pràdã.
      Speaking about the latter, formation of plural doesn't show anything
      but the word has some centuries in the language. The same pattern is
      shown by more recent loanwords as Sl. <kadI> > Rom. <cadã> pl. <cãzi>
      or Germ. <Lade> > Rom. <ladã> pl. <lãzi>; but Fr. <rade> > Rom. <radã>
      pl. <rade>, Fr. <fade> > Rom. <fad>, fem. <fadã>, fem. pl. <fade>. The
      choice between the two ways of plural formation is essentially related
      to style: the normal alternations a-ã and d-z are perceived as "rude"
      because they affect the stem, so one would try to avoid them if not
      already accustomed with.

      Regards,
      Marius Iacomi

      PS - TILR gives actually an Aromanian form <fluér>, with emphasis on
      stress position, not <flùer> as I wrote in my earlier message (with
      similar stress as in DR), I apologize for hurry typing

      PPS - I still think these issues have little to do with (P)IE but
      with (Balkan) Romance linguistics
    • tolgs001
      [fullquote deleted] ... I.e. in Ottoman Turkish, right? (Well, it might be seen as a parallel to what s in Hungarian u o, u-Umlaut o-umlaut.) ... In
      Message 154 of 154 , Dec 6, 2005
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        [fullquote deleted]

        >It's Turkic characteristic to change /u/ > /o/: Arabic <burani>
        >'some kind of meat' > Turk. <borani>, Persian <bustan> 'garden'
        >> Turkish <bostan>, Persian <buza> 'some kinde of drink' > Turk.
        ><boza>, Per. <shurba> 'soup' > Turk. <�orba>, Persian <dust>
        >'friend' (like in Dust-e man 'My friend') > Turkish <dost>,
        >etc., etc.

        I.e. in "Ottoman" Turkish, right? (Well, it might be seen as
        a parallel to what's in Hungarian u > o, u-Umlaut > o-umlaut.)

        >So, primary forms are always with <u>, until in Romanian and
        >Albanian exists tendency to change /o/ to /u/ where first vocal
        >is followed by nasals /m/, /n/, /gn/

        In Romanian additionally or rather the tendency in these 3
        environments to convert both u and o (and a) into circumflexed-i
        (or circumflexed-a), which in Russian is written bI and in
        Turkish as an i without the dot. (I can type them but now
        I'm using my new Firefox 1.5 browser, and I'm afraid it won't
        render the nonASCII fonts in the proper way.)

        >and has nothing to do with any kind of Umlaut.

        In Romance idioms/dialects in the Southern regions of
        former "Romania" (I mean the ancient realm lead by SPQR), the
        tendency is o > u; in various phon. environments Romanian can
        be seen as the number one in this "top", ahead of the Sicily
        and Sardinian isles and of Portugal. In the neighboring,
        germanic world, there is IMHO a similar tendency in the South
        rather u and u-Umlaut, in the North rather o and o-Umlaut -
        the "border" running across Germany; cf. Mueller-Moeller,
        gruen-groen (incl. Gr�nland), Fuesse (& Fiass)-Foe:ss/Foe:t,
        Blut-Bloot/Blood; Blum(e)-Bloom; pan-German & North-German
        komm! ("come (on/here)") vs. Bavarian+Austrian kumm!
        ("Lieber Gott, mach mich stumm, dass ich net nach Dachau
        kumm!" was the popular adage betw. 1933-1945, as the
        average German knew of the 1st concentration camp.)

        And cf. pan+standard German was ("what") [vas], South
        German (esp. Bavarian+Austrain) wos [vos, vo:s], and
        Yiddish wus [vus, vu:s]. (North of a Cologne-Berlin line,
        the dialectal "what" is wat [vat, va:t].)

        >Konushevci

        George
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