Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [tied] Re: Euxine Event.; DOGS; CUINTL

Expand Messages
  • João Simões Lopes Filho
    But Chihuaha was present in Mexico before the Spanish conquerors, wasn t it??? I don t believe it was brought by Spanish. Even Chihuahua was brought from
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 3, 2000
      But Chihuaha was present in Mexico before the Spanish conquerors, wasn't it??? I don't believe it was brought by Spanish. Even Chihuahua was brought from Spaniards, Mexico had Xolotzcuintl (Mexican hairless dog, literally Dog of Xolotl, the Aztecan dog-headed god of dead). Is it CUINTL so similar to IE *KWEN-, isn't it? Mystery...
       
      Joao SL
      Rio
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 9:43 PM
      Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Euxine Event.; DOGS

      An excellent post. As for the origin of the Chihuahua, this breed seems to have originated in the far east, getting to Mexico via the Manila galleons. It's by chance only that it picked up the name of a Mexican state, and by default, became the 'national dog' of Mexico.
       
      I am pretty sure Canis familiaris more or less co-evolved with man, towards man, but cross-breeding with local wolves: one domestication but multiple contributions from wild stock.
        

       
      I've ever think how the understanding about dogs races evolution would be so useful to understand IE migration. What kinds of dogs the IE people carried with them? The wolfish shepherd-dogs? The molossoid mastiffs? The bracoid bloodhound-like races? The fox-like spitz?
       
      A good article about dog genetic evolution is at SCIENCE vol 276 13-jun-1997; "MULTIPLE and ANCIENT ORIGINS OF THE DOMESTIC DOG"( Vilà, C., et alii)
      The study analyzed the haplotypes of circa 20 races of dogs and 20 wolves from different places and divided them in 4 groups:
      I
      the main group, including only dogs
      II
      derived from Greek and Italian wolves, this one include only the haplotype D8 (present in Sandinavian Elghund and Jämthund)
      III
      derived from Arabian wolves, include the haplotypes D7 (present in Siberian Husky, Alaskan Malamute, Giant Schnauzer, Jamthund, Airedale Terrier, West Highland White Terrier and German Shepherd), D19 (present in German Shepherd) and D21 (present in Mexican hairless dog)
      IV
      derived from Greek, Russian and Romanian wolves, this include the haplotypes D10 (present in Wire-haired Dachshund and Flat-Coated Retriever), D24 (present in Golden Retriever) and D6/W6 (present in Romanian and Russian wolves, and in Mexican hairless, German Shepherd, Golden Retriever, Basset, Bulldog, Belgian Groenendael, Afghanhound, Maremman, Otterhound, Toy Poodle, Irish Water Spaniel and Tibetan Spaniel)
       
      It's important to note that any race can have many different haplotypes. The split in 4 groups may point to four different domestications. A strong mystery to me is the origin of Aztecan races like Chihuahua and Hairless dog (Xolotzcuintl): did they come from North American wolves? From China? Egypt? Atlantis?
       
    • Piotr Gasiorowski
      ... From: João Simões Lopes Filho To: cybalist@egroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 4:06 AM Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Euxine Event.; DOGS; CUINTL
      Message 2 of 8 , Oct 4, 2000
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 4:06 AM
        Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Euxine Event.; DOGS; CUINTL<KWEN ?

        The IE word for 'dog' is *k(u)wo:n, Acc. *kwonm, Gen. *kunos. The e-grade form *kwen- is unknown to me.
         
        Anyway, your analysis of xoloitzcuintli is faulty. It's actually xolotl + itzcuintli = Nahuatl 'Xolotl's dog' (as far as I know, there are skulls of dogs resembling the xoloitzcuintli that date to over 3000 years BP). If, as seems to be the case, no indigenous American breeds were among those considered by the study you mentioned, no wonder that they are left out of the classification. I don't see any mention of the dingo either. It only menas that the classification is incomplete and can only be regarded as preliminary.
         
        Joao wrote:
         
        But Chihuaha was present in Mexico before the Spanish conquerors, wasn't it??? I don't believe it was brought by Spanish. Even Chihuahua was brought from Spaniards, Mexico had Xolotzcuintl (Mexican hairless dog, literally Dog of Xolotl, the Aztecan dog-headed god of dead). Is it CUINTL so similar to IE *KWEN-, isn't it? Mystery...
      • John Croft
        Piotr wrote ... among those considered by the study you mentioned, no wonder that they are left out of the classification. I don t see any mention of the dingo
        Message 3 of 8 , Oct 4, 2000
          Piotr wrote
          >If, as seems to be the case, no indigenous American breeds were
          among those considered by the study you mentioned, no wonder that
          they are left out of the classification. I don't see any mention of
          the dingo either. It only menas that the classification is incomplete
          and can only be regarded as preliminary.

          I understood that the American breeds show backcrossing to both wolf
          and coyote, but show the nearest connection is to the Husky, which
          makes sense.

          The Dingo, has on the basis of genetic work done by the Australian
          Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO),
          which has the best gene sequencing labs in Australia, is genetically
          indistinguishable from the pariah dog found from India to South East
          Asia. It was descended from the Arabian Type II mentioned by Joao.

          Regards

          John
        • Piotr Gasiorowski
          ... From: John Croft To: cybalist@egroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 12:06 PM Subject: [tied] Re: Euxine Event.; DOGS; CUINTL
          Message 4 of 8 , Oct 4, 2000
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 12:06 PM
            Subject: [tied] Re: Euxine Event.; DOGS; CUINTL<KWEN ?
             
             
            Thanks a lot; I've already apologised for misreading Joao's post as regards the indigenous breeds of America. Your information on the dingo is very interesting.
             
            Piotr
             
             
             
             
            John wrote:

            I understood that the American breeds show backcrossing to both wolf
            and coyote, but show the nearest connection is to the Husky, which
            makes sense.

            The Dingo, has on the basis of genetic work done by the Australian
            Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO),
            which has the best gene sequencing labs in Australia, is genetically
            indistinguishable from the pariah dog found from India to South East
            Asia.  It was descended from the Arabian Type II mentioned by Joao.

          • João Simões Lopes Filho
            Sure, the right is K WON-/K UN-. That was my error. Even itzcuintl have -cuintl, that was similar to *k won-, but can be a coincidence or some Nostratic root
            Message 5 of 8 , Oct 4, 2000
              Sure, the right is K'WON-/K'UN-. That was my error. Even itzcuintl have -cuintl, that was similar to *k'won-, but can be a coincidence or some Nostratic root (I think I've alkready read something like qunja or kunja).
              The article mentioned Dingo. It has the haplotype D18, present also in New Guinea Singing Dog and Siberian Husky. Surprisingly, according to the article it as not one of the oldest haplotypes. The study mentions 25 breeds of dogs and 26 wolves from Eurasia and America.
               
              Joao SL
              Rio
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 4:33 AM
              Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Euxine Event.; DOGS; CUINTL<KWEN ?

               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 4:06 AM
              Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Euxine Event.; DOGS; CUINTL<KWEN ?

              The IE word for 'dog' is *k(u)wo:n, Acc. *kwonm, Gen. *kunos. The e-grade form *kwen- is unknown to me.
               
              Anyway, your analysis of xoloitzcuintli is faulty. It's actually xolotl + itzcuintli = Nahuatl 'Xolotl's dog' (as far as I know, there are skulls of dogs resembling the xoloitzcuintli that date to over 3000 years BP). If, as seems to be the case, no indigenous American breeds were among those considered by the study you mentioned, no wonder that they are left out of the classification. I don't see any mention of the dingo either. It only menas that the classification is incomplete and can only be regarded as preliminary.
               
              Joao wrote:
               
              But Chihuaha was present in Mexico before the Spanish conquerors, wasn't it??? I don't believe it was brought by Spanish. Even Chihuahua was brought from Spaniards, Mexico had Xolotzcuintl (Mexican hairless dog, literally Dog of Xolotl, the Aztecan dog-headed god of dead). Is it CUINTL so similar to IE *KWEN-, isn't it? Mystery...
            • João Simões Lopes Filho
              The article denies the influence of coyotes or jackals in dog breeds. Surely there s coyote-dog hybrids, but all dog breeds came from wolf. Joao SL Rio ...
              Message 6 of 8 , Oct 4, 2000
                The article denies the influence of coyotes or jackals in dog breeds.
                Surely there's coyote-dog hybrids, but all dog breeds came from wolf.

                Joao SL
                Rio
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: John Croft <jdcroft@...>
                To: <cybalist@egroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 7:06 AM
                Subject: [tied] Re: Euxine Event.; DOGS; CUINTL<KWEN ?


                > Piotr wrote
                > >If, as seems to be the case, no indigenous American breeds were
                > among those considered by the study you mentioned, no wonder that
                > they are left out of the classification. I don't see any mention of
                > the dingo either. It only menas that the classification is incomplete
                > and can only be regarded as preliminary.
                >
                > I understood that the American breeds show backcrossing to both wolf
                > and coyote, but show the nearest connection is to the Husky, which
                > makes sense.
                >
                > The Dingo, has on the basis of genetic work done by the Australian
                > Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO),
                > which has the best gene sequencing labs in Australia, is genetically
                > indistinguishable from the pariah dog found from India to South East
                > Asia. It was descended from the Arabian Type II mentioned by Joao.
                >
                > Regards
                >
                > John
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Mark Odegard
                My error. I looked about about the web. The Chihuahua indeed would seem to be native to the Americas. Mark. From: João Simões Lopes Filho But Chihuaha was
                Message 7 of 8 , Oct 4, 2000
                  My error. I looked about about the web. The Chihuahua indeed would seem to be 'native' to the Americas.
                   
                  Mark.

                  But Chihuaha was present in Mexico before the Spanish conquerors, wasn't it=
                • John Croft
                  Joao wrote ... breeds. ... wolf. I have also heard that there are Jackal genes in the Egyptian saluki. Certainly Anubis, Egytpian God of the Dead seems to have
                  Message 8 of 8 , Oct 4, 2000
                    Joao wrote
                    > The article denies the influence of coyotes or jackals in dog
                    breeds.
                    > Surely there's coyote-dog hybrids, but all dog breeds came from
                    wolf.

                    I have also heard that there are Jackal genes in the Egyptian saluki.
                    Certainly Anubis, Egytpian God of the Dead seems to have been a
                    mixture of dog and jackal.

                    Regards

                    John
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.