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[tied] Re: Irish word >>mór<< 'BIG' and Romanian >>mare<< 'BIG'

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  • alexandru_mg3
    I. ... I know that the Irish word is . The same root (and derivation) matches well for the Romanian- Substratum word mare big with the PIE *-ro
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 4, 2005
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      I.
      >Brian wrote:
      > The Irish word is actually <mór> (/mo:r/, not /mor/);
      > according to Watkins (2000), it's from a suffixed o-grade
      > *mo:-ro-, from *meh1- 'big'.

      I know that the Irish word is <mór>.

      The same root (and derivation) matches well for the Romanian-
      Substratum word 'mare' 'big' with the PIE *-ro suffix too.

      PIE *meh1-ro- > [eh1>e:] >Early Dacian/PAlb *me:-ra- >[e:>a:]
      Dacian/PAlb *ma:-ra- or maybe even *ma:-ra-i >[a:>a] > Romanian ma-re

      (for a similar evolution of the Romanian ending see PAlb *wedzula >
      Rom. viezure <-> Alb. vjedhull)

      Note:
      In Romanian(-Substratum) the a: remain a (it didn't switch to *o as
      in PAlb)

      II.
      >Brian wrote:
      >It also meant 'great, famous'.

      This secondary sense exists also in Romanian:
      Ex: 'Stefan cel Mare' -> 'Steven the Great'

      url-2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_cel_Mare
      url-1: http://www.ici.ro/romania/en/istorie/hi32.html

      Best Regards,
      Marius
    • Abdullah Konushevci
      ... ************ In a big family of verbs, like: inflame, light (
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 4, 2005
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        On 8/4/05, alexandru_mg3 <alexandru_mg3@...> wrote:
        >
        > I.
        > >Brian wrote:
        > > The Irish word is actually <mór> (/mo:r/, not /mor/);
        > > according to Watkins (2000), it's from a suffixed o-grade
        > > *mo:-ro-, from *meh1- 'big'.
        >
        > I know that the Irish word is <mór>.
        >
        > The same root (and derivation) matches well for the Romanian-
        > Substratum word 'mare' 'big' with the PIE *-ro suffix too.
        >
        > PIE *meh1-ro- > [eh1>e:] >Early Dacian/PAlb *me:-ra- >[e:>a:]
        > Dacian/PAlb *ma:-ra- or maybe even *ma:-ra-i >[a:>a] > Romanian ma-re
        >
        > (for a similar evolution of the Romanian ending see PAlb *wedzula >
        > Rom. viezure <-> Alb. vjedhull)
        >
        > Note:
        > In Romanian(-Substratum) the a: remain a (it didn't switch to *o as
        > in PAlb)
        >
        > II.
        > >Brian wrote:
        > >It also meant 'great, famous'.
        >
        > This secondary sense exists also in Romanian:
        > Ex: 'Stefan cel Mare' -> 'Steven the Great'
        >
        > url-2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_cel_Mare
        > url-1: http://www.ici.ro/romania/en/istorie/hi32.html
        >
        > Best Regards,
        > Marius
        ************
        In a big family of verbs, like: <dhez/ndez> 'inflame, light'
        (<*dhoug'eyo), but <mër•dhez> 'to light up' (< *mer- < *mo:-ro-
        through darkened fo /e/ to /ë/ due to moving the accent in last
        syllable), mër•dhinj 'to feel ice cold, suffer from the icy cold' (<
        *mer- + *g'heimyo), mër•typ 'chew up' (cf. për•typ 'chew', sh•typ 'to
        press', probably from *(s)teip-o 'to stick, compress' > (sh)tip >
        shtyp due to bilabial /p/ we have as in many cases i > y); <thyej> 'to
        break', but <mër•thej> 'to break up', I find the presence of adverb
        <mer> used as prefix and replaced as adverb from comparative form
        <mâ/më> 'more'.

        Konushevci
      • alexandru_mg3
        ... cite ... You are right, sorry. a) DEX make reference to Latin male for: Rom. big – Probabil Lat. mas, maris b) next DEX make reference
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 4, 2005
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          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel J. Milton" <dmilt1896@a...>
          wrote:
          > Marius, when DEX has "Probabil lat. mas, maris.", it is citing a
          > Latin word (in this case meaning "male") in the usual dictionary
          > manner: Nom., gen. If the word for "sea" was involved, it would
          cite
          > "Mare, maris."
          >
          > Dan


          You are right, sorry.

          a) DEX make reference to 'Latin male' for:
          Rom. <<mare-1>> 'big' " – Probabil Lat. mas, maris"

          b) next DEX make reference to 'Latin sea' for:
          Rom. <<mare-2>> 'sea' " – Lat. mare, -is"
          (For sure the b) is a correct etymology).

          see url: http://dexonline.ro/search.php?cuv=mare&source=


          I well know the proposed etymologies for this word in the Romanian
          books, so from here my previous feedback:
          These are:

          1. Lat mas , marem 'male'

          2. Lat maris 'sea'

          3. in relation with Alb. madh 'big' -> that has a dialectal
          variant 'i mall' -> Rosetti talks about this variant in ILR II.
          see url:
          http://f2.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/4I_yQmpxLVeOlnNMUdzALhb5WiIltj7aglQsQf_Q
          fXoVp9js4Gz9KsSjJuXcDp4Mq_Y9dKYncffY5OE07sHk11R7LyNIB7fwQyX_xA/Rosett
          i/Rosetti_ILR_II_116_117.jpg

          (I'm not aware about this Albanian Dialectal variant -> but I'm not
          at all a specialist on these variants).


          ==> 4. But finally the link with the Irish (->Celtic)
          word 'mór' 'big' (see my derivation in a previous posting) is more
          than obvious (->my opinion) : PIE *meh1- + the PIE suffix *-ro


          By the way, how can we explain the relation between the PIE
          roots : *meh1- and *meh1g^-. More exactly, my question is what
          is 'the status' of this g^ in the second root ?

          Thanks,
          Marius
        • tgpedersen
          ... cite ... Gamkrelidze & Ivanov: IE and the IEs, p.782 Egypt. mr canal, irrigation reservoir , Hittite amiyara- canal , Hom. Gk. amáre: ditch, canal ,
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 5, 2005
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            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel J. Milton" <dmilt1896@a...>
            wrote:
            > Marius, when DEX has "Probabil lat. mas, maris.", it is citing a
            > Latin word (in this case meaning "male") in the usual dictionary
            > manner: Nom., gen. If the word for "sea" was involved, it would
            cite
            > "Mare, maris."
            >

            Gamkrelidze & Ivanov: IE and the IEs, p.782
            Egypt. mr 'canal, irrigation reservoir',
            Hittite amiyara- "canal",
            Hom. Gk. amáre: "ditch, canal",
            Amárunthos, name of a place connected with the water supply for
            Eretria,
            Myc. Gk. A-ma-ru-ta,
            cf Alb. âmë


            Torsten
          • Brian M. Scott
            At 7:24:22 PM on Thursday, August 4, 2005, alexandru_mg3 ... Do you mean *meg^- great ? Brian
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 6, 2005
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              At 7:24:22 PM on Thursday, August 4, 2005, alexandru_mg3
              wrote:

              > By the way, how can we explain the relation between the
              > PIE roots : *meh1- and *meh1g^-.

              Do you mean *meg^- 'great'?

              Brian
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