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[cybalist] Pelasgian-Cretan-Philistines

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  • Ivanovas/Milatos
    Hello, it seems we need some more archaeological facts to discuss this subject! Let me give you some material: Proto-Canaanite, also known as Proto-Sinaitic,
    Message 1 of 6 , Dec 2, 1999
      ��<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content="text/html; charset=unicode" http-equiv=Content-Type> <META content="MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode">Hello,</FONT><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode"></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode">it seems we need some more archaeological facts to discuss this subject!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode">Let me give you some material:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Lucida Sans Unicode" size=1> <P>Proto-Canaanite, also known as Proto-Sinaitic, was the first consonantal alphabet. Even a quick and cursory glance at its inventory of signs makes it very apparent of this script's Egyptian origin. It is thought that at round 1700 BC, Sinai was conquered by Egypt (for its turquoise mines and trade routes). Egyptian influence must have poured into the local West-Semitic speaking population, who, among other things, adopted a small number of hieroglyphic signs (probably no more than 22) to write down their language. </P> <P>from: <A href="http://alumni.eecs.berkeley.edu/~lorentz/Ancient_Scripts">http://alumni.eecs.berkeley.edu/~lorentz/Ancient_Scripts</A>  where you'll find more( information, scipts, figures)</P> <P><FONT size=2>Now as for other languages in this region, think about the following: the oldest inscriptions in ancient Greek(alphabetic) are from the 8th century, as far as I know. Before that were the Linear B writings in Mycenean Greek that stopped around the middle of the 13th century all over (Greek mainland, Crete, wherever). Until recently scholars believed that Lin.B had developed in Crete from the writing system of the Minoans, Lin.A (writing system not yet deciphered, but probably phonetically roughly similar with Lin. B, language unknown - best chances it is somehow related with later Luwian and - closer - with even later Lycian). Some years now it looks as though Lin. B may have developed - still on the basis of Lin. A, may be even by Minoan scribes - not in Crete but in the 'Eastern Aegean': one Lin. B (!) inscription dating back to the Middle Helladic period (17th cent., Kafkania, Northern Peloponnese), together with some findings of inscriptions in the Levant (Tel Haror, Tel Lachish) first thought to be Lin. A (because of their age) with closer inspection may turn out to be an 'extra-Cretan' form of Lin. B, possibly used for 'General Understanding' in the eastern Aegean (?). There may have been something like a 'Cretan Koine', too, but that wouldn't explain the differences in spelling (all these 'non-Cretan' and 'non-Mycenaean' inscriptions consist unfortunately only of a few signs...)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>But: There are other Lin. A inscriptions outside Crete (few), one of them in Miletus, dating to LM I B, made of local clay - that means: not imported from Crete. So in the Cretan dominated Miletus (talking about architecture and pottery) of the 14th cent. someone also spoke (or at least wrote) the Cretan language. The Lachish inscription goes back to the time of LM III B (Ramses III reigned at that time in Egypt, ring a bell?).</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>There was only LM III C and the Minoans vanished, leaving some desperate sites far up on mountain peaks with very basic pottery and figurines and no writing any more.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Next we know there are early Archaic Cretan bilinguals (from Dreros, an originally Doric city state), originally supposed to be Greek and 'Eteocretan' (a language supposed to be Phoenician by Herodotus) that turned out to be Greek and some kind of late West-Semitic. Strange, they reminded me of modern Cretan street signs Greek/English! (meaning: <EM>cave</EM>, a second language doesn't necessarily mean a second people inhabiting the region!)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>So to me it seems the Cretans may have influenced Canaan artistically, may be even mythically (lots of parallels between Minoan and early Judaic motives, as far as I can see), but the more powerful language in the Eastern Aegean, may be even from the beginning of the Iron Age, seems to have been Semitic (cf. also the early Semitic language of Ugarit before).</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>So if the Cretans were among the sea peoples, they were not on the winning side!(same for the Mycenaeans who vanished from Greek maps about that time and left the country without writing for centuries...</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>This is about as much as I can say to the subject. For more information on the above mentioned, see: M. Finkelberg: Bronze Age Writing, Contacts between East and West, in: Aegeum 18/1998 (The Aegean and the Orient in the Second Millenium).</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Best wishes from Crete, where everybody speaks Cretan (a kind of Greek :-)) at the moment..</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Sabine.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>.</FONT></P> <P> </P></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
    • Piotr Gasiorowski
      ivanovas/milatos wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/cybalist/?start=391 ... subject! ... consonantal alphabet.
      Message 2 of 6 , Dec 3, 1999
        "ivanovas/milatos" <ivanova-@...> wrote:
        original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/cybalist/?start=391
        > Hello,
        > it seems we need some more archaeological facts to discuss this
        subject!
        > Let me give you some material:
        > Proto-Canaanite, also known as Proto-Sinaitic, was the first
        consonantal alphabet. Even a quick and cursory glance at its inventory
        of signs makes it very apparent of this script's Egyptian origin. It is
        thought that at round 1700 BC, Sinai was conquered by Egypt (for its
        turquoise mines and trade routes). Egyptian influence must have poured
        into the local West-Semitic speaking population, who, among other
        things, adopted a small number of hieroglyphic signs (probably no more
        than 22) to write down their language.
        >
        > from: http://alumni.eecs.berkeley.edu/~lorentz/Ancient_Scripts where
        you'll find more( information, scipts, figures)
        >
        > Now as for other languages in this region, think about the following:
        the oldest inscriptions in ancient Greek(alphabetic) are from the 8th
        century, as far as I know. Before that were the Linear B writings in
        Mycenean Greek that stopped around the middle of the 13th century all
        over (Greek mainland, Crete, wherever). Until recently scholars
        believed that Lin.B had developed in Crete from the writing system of
        the Minoans, Lin.A (writing system not yet deciphered, but probably
        phonetically roughly similar with Lin. B, language unknown - best
        chances it is somehow related with later Luwian and - closer - with
        even later Lycian). Some years now it looks as though Lin. B may have
        developed - still on the basis of Lin. A, may be even by Minoan scribes
        - not in Crete but in the 'Eastern Aegean': one Lin. B (!) inscription
        dating back to the Middle Helladic period (17th cent., Kafkania,
        Northern Peloponnese), together with some findings of inscriptions in
        the Levant (Tel Haror, Tel Lachish) first thought to be Lin. A (because
        of their age) with closer inspection may turn out to be an
        'extra-Cretan' form of Lin. B, possibly used for 'General
        Understanding' in the eastern Aegean (?). There may have been something
        like a 'Cretan Koine', too, but that wouldn't explain the differences
        in spelling (all these 'non-Cretan' and 'non-Mycenaean' inscriptions
        consist unfortunately only of a few signs...)
        >
        > But: There are other Lin. A inscriptions outside Crete (few), one of
        them in Miletus, dating to LM I B, made of local clay - that means: not
        imported from Crete. So in the Cretan dominated Miletus (talking about
        architecture and pottery) of the 14th cent. someone also spoke (or at
        least wrote) the Cretan language. The Lachish inscription goes back to
        the time of LM III B (Ramses III reigned at that time in Egypt, ring a
        bell?).
        >
        > There was only LM III C and the Minoans vanished, leaving some
        desperate sites far up on mountain peaks with very basic pottery and
        figurines and no writing any more.
        >
        > Next we know there are early Archaic Cretan bilinguals (from Dreros,
        an originally Doric city state), originally supposed to be Greek and
        'Eteocretan' (a language supposed to be Phoenician by Herodotus) that
        turned out to be Greek and some kind of late West-Semitic. Strange,
        they reminded me of modern Cretan street signs Greek/English! (meaning:
        cave, a second language doesn't necessarily mean a second people
        inhabiting the region!)
        >
        > So to me it seems the Cretans may have influenced Canaan
        artistically, may be even mythically (lots of parallels between Minoan
        and early Judaic motives, as far as I can see), but the more powerful
        language in the Eastern Aegean, may be even from the beginning of the
        Iron Age, seems to have been Semitic (cf. also the early Semitic
        language of Ugarit before).
        >
        > So if the Cretans were among the sea peoples, they were not on the
        winning side!(same for the Mycenaeans who vanished from Greek maps
        about that time and left the country without writing for centuries...
        >
        > This is about as much as I can say to the subject. For more
        information on the above mentioned, see: M. Finkelberg: Bronze Age
        Writing, Contacts between East and West, in: Aegeum 18/1998 (The Aegean
        and the Orient in the Second Millenium).
        >
        > Best wishes from Crete, where everybody speaks Cretan (a kind of
        Greek :-)) at the moment..
        >
        > Sabine.
        >

        You surely know that the Lycians are probably mentioned (as Luka or
        however the hieroglyphic name should be vocalised) in the Egyptian
        inventories of the Sea Peoples (I find this name rather clumsy,
        especially if I need to use it adjectivally; shouldn't we call them
        'Seafolk' or 'Thalassans' instead?). Like the Carians and Cilicians
        (presumably also Anatolian-speaking ethnoi) they were good sailors and
        notorious pirates. Perhaps the fellow in the feather-crowned hedgear on
        the Phaistos Disk represents the syllable LU ;-).

        Piotr
      • Ivanovas/Milatos
        Hello, ... Great idea! That would give US the REALLY OBJECTIVE FIRST syllable for reading the disc!! (In capitals: what most other explainers and code
        Message 3 of 6 , Dec 3, 1999
          Hello,
          Pjotr, you wrote:

          > Perhaps the fellow in the feather-crowned headgear on
          >the Phaistos Disk represents the syllable LU ;-).

          Great idea! That would give US the REALLY OBJECTIVE FIRST syllable for
          reading the disc!! (In capitals: what most other 'explainers and 'code
          breakers' write about their findings, too). Lets carry on, may be we'll get
          the rest just as easy! :-)) ;-))
          A little more serious:
          I've read somewhere (at a time I wasn't interested in that subject very much
          yet, but I remember it clearly, only not where ... so far my archaeological
          'expertise') that on the Canaanite coast Semitic (West Semitic, Ugaritic or
          the like) findings predate others, but many of the settlements were then
          mysteriously destructed and stayed uninhabited for some time. If we
          hypothesize (!) that this rather 'empty' moment was when the Philistines
          (where ever they were actually coming from, but their pottery resembled
          Mycenean and Cretan as well without being similar) found their place on the
          Levantine coast. They were well settled when the Israelites came from the
          deserts and took over. I imagine that even if the larger settlements were
          destroyed, small ones (with Semitic population) still existed, at some sites
          there seem to be graves from nomadic or similar non settled people. So
          within their - now again largely Semitic speaking surroundings - the
          Philistine (speaking something IE, as we are again hypothesizing...)
          settlers lead a somewhat insular life, concentrated on their seafaring (that
          bit really does make sense). Being culturally somewhat superior, it does
          make sense, too that the heretofore nomadic Hebrews borrowed some of the
          nice pottery ideas and certainly some of the mythology (Brinna Otto in:
          König Minos und sein Volk, Zürich 1997, hypothesizes a lot in the opposite
          direction, some probably correctly as all connections always have two sides
          and there are certain Semitic imports into Lin. B - that's as far as my
          'philological expertise' goes in this case).
          As Cretans had already had connections with Mari in the 19th century BC (the
          Marians noted that they needed a translator - and had one, too - for trading
          with them) and as their cultural influence also seems to have been
          noteworthy in the Levantine coast, it seems possible they exported some of
          their mythology, too (taking back parts and symbols, e.g. the holy palm tree
          that is rather scarce in Cretan climate but was one of the most important
          mythologems in Mesopotamia).
          To give you another philologically daring example, one of the oldest Greek
          gods that has already been documented in Mycenaean Greek was Dionysos (name
          except for the first part unclear). As his myth is partly based on his
          turning crazy and then being killed (sacrificed) to be reborn later, even
          the Greek story sounds very old. As Di-wo-nu-so (documented in 15th cent.
          Crete) he might be expressing an idea later taken up by religious reformers
          of the Hebrews: the God of suffering (nu-so being like the Ionian form
          'nousos' of 'nosos' meaning illness/suffering and (!) insanity). Now if you
          are a patriarchic Monotheist you then need to make him his son so everybody
          in the region would be satisfied, those of the old fertility religion and
          the patriarchs, too. Only those who prayed to a female goddess (I sometimes
          doubt the so-called Great Mother really existed in this way...!) would have
          problems. And looking at Crete today and the importance of the cult of Mary
          (also linguistically very interesting and certainly not as simple as usually
          given: from the Hebrew Mirjam - there are Cretan seals from the Middle
          Minoan time engraved with symbols that - read with Lin. B phonetics - would
          render ma-re-ja, ma being the symbol of a cat's head and reminding me a lot
          of Neolithic Anatolian females - goddesses? who knows - paired with or
          sitting on big cats like the later Cybele!) we can imagine that being the
          mother of god's son wasn't as bad, either.
          Enough with hypothesizing, if I say more of this kind no serious
          archaeologist will ever again talk to me - nothing of this can be proven, it
          all may be coincidence!
          But, Pjotr, your idea of looking into possible remnants of Anatolian,
          especially the Lykian branch, in early Hebrew and Western Semitic sounds
          interesting anyway!

          From the mythical land of magical spirals

          Sabine

          p.s. Has any of you ever had a look at Kjell Aartun's 'decipherment' of the
          Minoan languages (including the Phaistos Disc)?. He is a well known scholar
          of Ugaritic and takes the discos to be a typical Mesopotamian erotic hymn
          (the deep wet hollow earth is longing for the hard long plough etc, makes me
          blush although I've published a volume of erotic stories quite successfully.
          But mainly because his fantasy for associating syllables to symbols are by
          far not as convincing as Pjotr's LU-idea. E.g. the fish-sign for him is 'pi'
          as Western Semitic 'Torpedofisch', a branch with several leaves (to me) to
          him is 'pa' like WS 'Frucht'. The man with the Iroquois hairstyle Pjotr
          proposed to be LU for him is 'ka' as 'Priester' (see: K. Aartun, Minoische
          Schrift, Sprache und Texte tom. II, Wiesbaden 1997). With this kind of
          technique I'm quite certain someone with a lot of patience - any volunteers?
          Probably would publish well! - might prove it to be Old English or
          something like that!
        • John Croft
          Poitr wrote ... The idea of calling them Thalassoi, or even Athalassantoi makes me remember the stories of Plato in the Timaeus and Critias when the talks
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 6, 2000
            Poitr wrote

            >You surely know that the Lycians are probably mentioned (as Luka or
            >however the hieroglyphic name should be vocalised) in the Egyptian
            >inventories of the Sea Peoples (I find this name rather clumsy,
            >especially if I need to use it adjectivally; shouldn't we call them
            >'Seafolk' or 'Thalassans' instead?). Like the Carians and Cilicians
            >(presumably also Anatolian-speaking ethnoi) they were good sailors and
            >notorious pirates. Perhaps the fellow in the feather-crowned hedgear on
            >the Phaistos Disk represents the syllable LU ;-).

            The idea of calling them Thalassoi, or even Athalassantoi makes me
            remember the stories of Plato in the Timaeus and Critias when the talks
            about the people of the Ocean (to the Egyptians the "Great Green Ocean"
            was the Mediterranean, and Greece was just an island). There is
            etymologically not much distance between Atlantoi and Athalantoi.
            Could this also be a memory of "The Peoples of the Sea"?

            Regards

            John
          • Rex H. McTyeire
            Greetings; I read recently that the word mammoth was from Lithuanian.. and was derived from two words Ma Muth (or close to that) meaning large mole (or
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 14, 2000
              Greetings;
              I read recently that the word "mammoth" was from Lithuanian..
              and was derived from two words "Ma Muth" (or close to that) meaning
              large "mole" (or ground dwelling animal). I'm a few weeks away from the
              reference, but that is what I remember of it. Do any of you linguists
              know enough Lithuanian to comment or confirm/deny/correct this appraisal (or
              my memory of it)?

              La Revedere;
              Rex H. McTyeire
              Bucharest, Romania
              <rexbo@...>
            • Izzy_Cohen@bmc.com
              ... mammoth (mam uhth) n. 1. any extinct true elephant of the family genus Mammuthus. Compare MASTODON. 2. anything very large. 3. very large; enormous.
              Message 6 of 6 , Dec 26, 2000
                --- In cybalist@egroups.com, "Rex H. McTyeire" <rexbo@c...> wrote:
                > I read recently that the word "mammoth" was from Lithuanian...and
                > was derived from two words "Ma Muth" (or close to that) meaning
                > large "mole" (or ground dwelling animal)...Do any of you linguists
                > know enough Lithuanian to comment or confirm/deny/correct this
                > appraisal (or my memory of it)?
                >
                > La Revedere;
                > Rex H. McTyeire
                > Bucharest, Romania

                mammoth (mam'uhth) n.
                1. any extinct true elephant of the family
                genus Mammuthus. Compare MASTODON.
                2. anything very large.
                3. very large; enormous.
                [1690-1700; < Russ mam(m)ot (now mámont), first used in reference
                to remains of the animal found in permafrost regions; ulterior orig.
                uncert.]

                Perhaps mammoth is parallel to:
                behemoth (bi hee'muhth, bee'uh-) n.
                1. an animal, perhaps the hippopotamus, mentioned in Job 40: 15-24.
                2. any creature or thing of monstrous size or power.
                [1350-1400; ME bemoth < Heb behemoth, an aug. pl. of behemah beast]

                If true, this would be a Semitic bet - M parallel, such as
                Hebrew BaGaR = (reach) Latin MaJoR(ity). Other examples available.

                izzy_cohen@...
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