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[cybalist] Re: Just Joined, got lots of questions -help?

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  • Alexander Stolbov
    ... There is a hypothesis: Philistines = Pelasgians. Alexander
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 30, 1999
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      >
      > Anyway, what can linguistics say about the Philistine▓s origins?
      >

      There is a hypothesis: Philistines = Pelasgians.

      Alexander
    • Ivanovas/Milatos
      Hello, on the subject of the Philistines: the Bible says they had come from Crete (Kaphtor) to the Levantine coast. The end of the thirteenth century saw a lot
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 1, 1999
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        Hello,
        on the subject of the Philistines:
        the Bible says they had come from Crete (Kaphtor) to the Levantine coast.
        The end of the thirteenth century saw a lot of moving peoples in the eastern
        Mediterranean, but only the Egyptians, seeing themselves threatened by those
        sea-farers from the North, wrote down their names. The Philistines are
        usually seen as the people called 'Peleset', one of those trying to invade
        Egypt from the East at around 1190 BC (during the reign of Ramses III).
        The one strange thing that might at some time in the future prove to be a
        linguistic link is the way the Peleset - warriors are painted in the temple
        of Ramses III at Medinet Habu. Their headgear looks like upright feathers
        slightly spread in the form of a fan and has for this reason be paralleled
        with the sign no. 2 of the famous Cretan Phaistos Disc depicting a man with
        exactly that kind of thing on his head. Well, may be we'll live to see...
        The languages found in the region of Palestine (name deriving from
        Philistines) are, as far as I know, all of the Western-Semitic kind. But
        actual connections between Western Galilee and the Minoan world before the
        end of the 17th cent. BC have been proven in excavations at Tel Kabri.
        Archaeologists found a painted floor with a typically Aegean decoration.
        (cf. W-D. Niemeier, New Archaeological Evidence for a 17th Century Date of
        the 'Minoan Eruption from Israel (Tel Kabri, Western Galilee), in: Thera and
        the Aegean World III/3, Lond. 1990. There is also another article by
        Niemeier you might want to have a look at on this subject, Brent: The
        Mycenaeans in Western Anatolia and the Problem of the origins of the Sea
        Peoples, in: Mediterranean Peoples in Transition, eds. Gitin/Mazar/Stern,
        Jerusalem 1998. This article contains a beautiful summary of all the
        theories made for the sea peoples since the beginning of the centuries and
        give you an idea of how much the early Greeks (Mycenaeans, i.e. Achaians,
        not Dorians etc.) had to do in the region at that time.
        Greetings from Crete
        Sabine
      • Brent Lords
        On Nov 30th Piotr Said: Hi, Brent, welcome to this group. You ask good questions. I wish I had equally good answers. 1. Tocharian doesn t fit into any neat
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 2, 1999
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          On Nov 30th Piotr Said:
          Hi, Brent, welcome to this group.
          You ask good questions. I wish I had equally good answers.
          1. Tocharian doesn't fit into any neat classificatory scheme, which
          probably means that it split off very early. On the other hand it's
          possible that linguistic traits reflecting the original affinities of
          Tocharian were obscured beyond recognition in the long course of its
          independent development and contacts with non-Indo-European
          languages....
          2. What I take to be the majority opinion is that Venetic is a close
          relative of Italic or even a member of the same branch as Latin, Oscan,
          Umbrian etc.....
          3. Certainly not later than about 2000 BC, but just how early -- hm,
          that's anybody's guess.
          4. The Cimmerians occupied the lands north of the Black Sea before the
          Scythians, who overran that area in the 8th century BC.....
          5. Some people say that the Philistines were Indo-European like some
          (most? all?) other groups involved in the Sea movement....


          Piotr
          Thanks for the detailed response, its much more than I expected.
          There is fascinating information here.

          The reason I asked questions 1-4 is because I am interested in seeing a
          IE Language tree, hopefully one reasonably associated with time
          intervals. I haven't been able to find one, so I am trying to draw
          one up from the information I have found on the Web, principally from
          Cyril site. Questions 1-4 dealt with areas for which there seemed to
          be contradictory or incomplete information.

          I spent some time re-reading and mulling over your informative
          response and I have a few comments, questions and remarks. All of
          which will undoubtedly reveal my naivete and inexperience on the
          subject area – I hope you don't mind.

          1. As I am beginning to understand from Cyril's site the Tocharian
          language is considered to be related to the Italo-Celtic-etc in
          language in general – with some ties to German-Balto-Slavic language
          structure/vocabulary. They were an apparently very nomadic group, that
          moved from some area close to Indo-Aryans (per Alexander's SIEM map)
          eastward to an area north of the Tibetian Plateau (+/- 80o longitude –
          from another source, sometime after the 5th Centuray BC) From your
          response I got that the language must have split off after the
          Anatolians left. I would assume, that since they shared language
          structure with the combined German-Balto-Slavic group that: 1. They
          must have been originally in direct contact with them, at an early
          stage. 2. That the German-etc. group was not yet separated into
          its factions and 3. That the German-etc. group had not yet migrated
          from its position adjacent to the Celtic-Italo group. 1 thru 3
          suggests that they must have left at a fairly early stage. Your
          comments that they don't have a lot in common with IE languages could
          confirm the early departure – as you noted.
          I haven't noticed anything being said about a high correlation with
          Indo-Aryan language structure/vocabulary – which was evidently also in
          the vicinity (don't know this is true, have to infer it – since I
          havn't seen it stated one way or the other). Does this suggest that
          the Tocharian language separated after the main PIE groups split into
          its 3 remaining braches, or before they separate? (Northern Branch,
          Indo-Aryan, and Balkain Branches). Cyril clickable tree implies a date
          of about 2500 BCE as an approximate time, and this is close to that
          time of separation – as I understand it. Other sources have implied a
          later date for the separation of the Tocharian Language. What are your
          thoughts?

          2. I was surprised by the information in item 2. I didn't realize that
          the relationships between the fractions were so much in dispute. But
          in general - from your responses, it sounds like Italic, Venetic and
          Celtic are more related to each other than to Illyrian – suggesting an
          early split off for Illyrian – if it is indeed related at all.-
          Italic+Venetic separated from Celtic next and Italic and Venetic
          separated last. Is this correct? Based on your comments, is it
          possible to estimate a time when the language groups may have separated?

          3. Very clear, thanks

          4. I understand, from incidentail comments at Cyril site, that the
          Cimmerians are considered to be descendants of the Indo-Aryans and
          probably are descendants of the group that was to also have invaded
          India (Indic). I am doing a lot of reading-between-the-lines here – do
          you know if that is correct? From what I can see of maps of the Indo
          group they originated somewheres -from North of the Caspian Sea, to
          East of it (Arial Sea) – But as you pointed out, the Cimmerians are
          usually thought to have come north of the Black Sea. So this seems
          contradictory. Do you have, or does anyone have any more information
          about this? Any idea when the language may have separated from the
          root group?

          5. Question 5 was a non-related question, meant to be addressed on the
          Sea People in general, not just focus on the Philistines. But I am
          glad it worked out that way – Learned a lot.

          Hope I haven't run you off, with my poorly informed questions. Really
          appreciated your first informative response.

          Best Wishes
          Brent
        • Piotr Gasiorowski
          ... From: Brent Lords To: cybalist@eGroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 9:49 AM Subject: [cybalist] Just Joined, got lots of questions -help? Brent
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 2, 1999
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            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 9:49 AM
            Subject: [cybalist] Just Joined, got lots of questions -help?

            
            Brent said:
            
                1. As I am beginning to understand from Cyril's site the Tocharian
            language is considered to be related to the Italo-Celtic-etc in
            language in general – with some ties to German-Balto-Slavic language
            structure/vocabulary.  They were an apparently very nomadic group, that
            moved from some area close to Indo-Aryans (per Alexander's SIEM map)
            eastward to an area north of the Tibetian Plateau (+/- 80o longitude –
            from another source, sometime after the 5th Centuray BC)  From your
            response  I got that the language must have split off after the
            Anatolians left.   I would assume, that since they shared language
            structure with the combined German-Balto-Slavic group that:     1. They
            must have been originally in direct contact with them, at an early
            stage.       2. That the German-etc. group was not yet separated into
            its factions and    3. That the German-etc. group had not yet migrated
            from its position adjacent to the Celtic-Italo group.    1 thru 3
            suggests that they must have left at a fairly early stage. Your
            comments that they don't have a lot in common with IE languages could
            confirm the early departure – as you noted. 
            I haven't noticed anything being said about a high correlation with
            Indo-Aryan language structure/vocabulary – which was evidently also in
            the vicinity (don't know this is true, have to infer it – since I
            havn't seen it stated one way or the other).  Does this suggest that
            the Tocharian language separated after the main PIE groups split into
            its 3 remaining braches, or before they separate?  (Northern Branch,
            Indo-Aryan, and  Balkain Branches). Cyril clickable tree implies a date
            of about 2500 BCE as an approximate time, and this is close to that
            time of separation – as I understand it. Other sources have implied a
            later date for the separation of the Tocharian Language.  What are your
            thoughts?
            
            2. I was surprised by the information in item 2. I didn't realize that
            the relationships between the fractions were so much in dispute.  But
            in general - from your responses, it sounds like Italic, Venetic and
            Celtic are more related to each other than to Illyrian – suggesting an
            early split off for Illyrian – if it is indeed related at all.-
            Italic+Venetic separated from Celtic next and Italic and Venetic
            separated last.  Is this correct? Based on your comments, is it
            possible to estimate a time when the language groups may have separated?
            ....
            4. I understand, from incidentail comments at Cyril site, that the
            Cimmerians are considered to be descendants of the Indo-Aryans and
            probably are descendants of the group that was to also have invaded
            India (Indic).  I am doing a lot of reading-between-the-lines here – do
            you know if that is correct?  From what I can see of maps of the Indo
            group they originated somewheres  -from North of the Caspian Sea, to
            East of it (Arial Sea) – But as you pointed out, the Cimmerians are
            usually thought to have come north of the Black Sea. So this seems
            contradictory.  Do you have, or does anyone have any more information
            about this?  Any idea when the language may have separated from the
            root group? 
            
            

            Brent,
            I'm too busy at the moment to answer all your questions at once. (1) and (2) will take some explaining, so let me take my time. As for (4), I'd say that the Cimmerians were quite likely Aryan (Indo-Iranian) or, if ethnically mixed, had a strong Aryan admixture, but this is just an educated guess which may be completely wrong. I daren't discuss the question if they were linguistically closer to the Indic branch that to the Iranian, as I'm far from sure that they were either. Even some of the extant Aryan languages (the "Dardic" group) cause serious classificatory difficulties. What can we say about a language of which we have no records whatsoever?
            Best regards,
            Piotr
          • Alexander Stolbov
            Brent:
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 2, 1999
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              Brent:
              <<Assuming, that the Philistines were from Crete - does that mean they were
              remants
              of the original inhabitants i.e. Minoans or the Achaean/Mycenaen Greeks
              who are thought to have invaded and taken over Crete in 1450 BCE and
              who were in turn probably invaded circa 1250 BCE?>>

              As Diodor (V, 80) informs us there was one more ethnic component among Crete
              inhabitants: Pelasgians. By the way, they were the next after Eteocretians
              (sorry, if spelling is wrong) and came there earlier then Dorians (folk # 3). By
              the way, the folk # 4 was "a mixture of barbarians".

              L.Gindin & V.Tsymburski in their book "Homer and History of the Eastern
              Mediterranean" write that
              Palaistine (or Palaiste) was the name of a seashore territory in Epirus (Caes.
              Bel. civ. 3, 6; Lucan, V,460; Lyd. de mag. III, 46). A variant of the name of
              Zeus from Dodona (Illiad, XVI, 233) is Pelastikos instead of Pelasgikos.

              A speculation: Palaistine, Pelasgian, Pw-r-s-tj and Philistine are 4 variants of
              the same name of a folk (correspondingly - original, Greek, Egyptian and Semitic
              versions).

              Alexander
            • Piotr Gasiorowski
              ... From: Brent Lords To: cybalist@eGroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 9:49 AM Subject: [cybalist] Just Joined, got lots of questions -help? In
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 3, 1999
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                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 9:49 AM
                Subject: [cybalist] Just Joined, got lots of questions -help?

                In response to Brent's questions about Tocharian, Italo-Celtic/Venetic/Illyrian and the branching order within the IE family tree.

                I must warn you that my own view of the absolute chronology of IE splits is not quite orthodox, and that the dates I prefer are deeper than assumed by most authorities (though not as deep as Colin Renfrew's, for example). I assume that the first branchings in the IE tree should be dated to ca. 5600 BC (the split into Anatolian and Non-Anatolian), and that the ancestor of Tocharian may have been a distinct dialect already in the fifth millennium BC, if it really arose from an early branching of the Non-Anatolian subfamily. If it could be clustered with Germanic, Italo-Celtic or any other branch, we'd need a shallower, possibly Bronze Age, date. The trouble is that the demonstrations I've seen are not convincing. The oft-cited lexical equations (the Northern SALMON word allegedly corresponding to Tocharian FISH, Germanic NECK having a seeming Tocharian cognate) are doubtful, being both isolated and based on superficial similarity. Morphological affinities connecting Tocharian on the one hand with Anatolian, and on the other with Italo-Celtic represent shared archaisms, not innovations, and as such don't prove anything, though they are very important for the reconstruction of PIE. I'm not aware of any special connectons between Tocharian and Aryan, despite their geographical closeness in historical times. Presumably the Tocharians spent some times in the souther Urals or thereabouts, in the neighbourhood of Altaic-speakers, and reached the Tarym basin and China from the northeast.
                 
                My personally preferred dating for the Italo/Celtic split would be some time in the 3rd millennium BC. At the time of the Italic expansion into modern Italy the branch seems to have consisted of a northern group (Venetic), which may have extended far into central and northern Europe, and a southern one (Italic proper). I regard the Illyrian group (insofar as it is a real grouping, rather than the historical linguist's waste-paper basket) as a residual offshoot of the IE movement up the Danube and into central Europe -- the one that produced Italo-Celtic and possibly Germanic. I tend to reject other than areal (Sprachbund) connections between Germanic and Balto-Slavic, though this again is my personal opinion; the genetic unity of Germanic and Balto-Slavic is something many linguists believe in (Alexander Stolbov and I have discussed this on Cybalist about a month ago).
                 
                Piotr
                 

              • John Croft
                Sabine wrote ... coast. ... eastern ... those ... invade ... be a ... temple ... feathers ... paralleled ... with ... see... ... But ... the ... decoration.
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 6, 2000
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                  Sabine wrote
                  >on the subject of the Philistines:
                  >the Bible says they had come from Crete (Kaphtor) to the Levantine
                  coast.
                  >The end of the thirteenth century saw a lot of moving peoples in the
                  eastern
                  >Mediterranean, but only the Egyptians, seeing themselves threatened by
                  those
                  >sea-farers from the North, wrote down their names. The Philistines are
                  >usually seen as the people called 'Peleset', one of those trying to
                  invade
                  >Egypt from the East at around 1190 BC (during the reign of Ramses III).
                  >The one strange thing that might at some time in the future prove to
                  be a
                  >linguistic link is the way the Peleset - warriors are painted in the
                  temple
                  >of Ramses III at Medinet Habu. Their headgear looks like upright
                  feathers
                  >slightly spread in the form of a fan and has for this reason be
                  paralleled
                  >with the sign no. 2 of the famous Cretan Phaistos Disc depicting a man
                  with
                  >exactly that kind of thing on his head. Well, may be we'll live to
                  see...
                  >The languages found in the region of Palestine (name deriving from
                  >Philistines) are, as far as I know, all of the Western-Semitic kind.
                  But
                  >actual connections between Western Galilee and the Minoan world before
                  the
                  >end of the 17th cent. BC have been proven in excavations at Tel Kabri.
                  >Archaeologists found a painted floor with a typically Aegean
                  decoration.
                  >(cf. W-D. Niemeier, New Archaeological Evidence for a 17th Century
                  Date of
                  >the 'Minoan Eruption from Israel (Tel Kabri, Western Galilee), in:
                  Thera and
                  >the Aegean World III/3, Lond. 1990. There is also another article by
                  >Niemeier you might want to have a look at on this subject, Brent: The
                  >Mycenaeans in Western Anatolia and the Problem of the origins of the
                  Sea
                  >Peoples, in: Mediterranean Peoples in Transition, eds.
                  Gitin/Mazar/Stern,
                  >Jerusalem 1998. This article contains a beautiful summary of all the
                  >theories made for the sea peoples since the beginning of the centuries
                  and
                  >give you an idea of how much the early Greeks (Mycenaeans, i.e.
                  Achaians,
                  >not Dorians etc.) had to do in the region at that time.

                  There is also the evidence of the appearance of Late Helladic IIIC
                  pottery finds associated with the Philistine/Peleset in Palestine,
                  which again points to an Aegean Mycenaean origin. Sabine is correct in
                  saying that from fairly early on the Philistines spoke a West Semetic
                  Caananite language, but there are elements which suggest an origin
                  elsewhere. The title used for Philistine monarchs, for instance,
                  Seren, has been linked to the Greek word ,Tyrant.

                  There is also the early story of Mopsus of Colophon, a city of the Asia
                  Minor coast, who seems to have been associated with the movement of the
                  Peoples of the Sea. Cilician geneaologies for instance speak of Moxus
                  amongst their ancestors. Robert Graves in his Greek myths tells of the
                  death of Mopsus in Askelon (the Philistine city), after a sojourn in
                  Egypt, where he died after being bitten by a viper for throwing a
                  statue of the Goddess into a lake.

                  Intriguingly Moxus/Mopsus in Egyptian would have been given the name
                  Moses, but that is another story entirely!

                  Hope this helps

                  John
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