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[tied] Re: Indo-European /a/

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  • elmeras2000
    ... was ... participate ... to ... *a ... Could you explain the nature of such a process? Jens
    Message 1 of 27 , Apr 5, 2005
      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@i...> wrote:
      >
      > As an alternative, one might consider the possibility that early *a
      was
      > relegated to the peripheries of the system since it did not
      participate
      > in productive vowel alternations and so had no grammatical function
      to
      > play. This is more or less Kurylowicz's position: he points out that
      *a
      > occurs mostly in isolated "concrete" lexemes.

      Could you explain the nature of such a process?

      Jens
    • Daniel J. Milton
      ... occurs ... to ... make ... evaporate ... verbs ... ********** Solar evaporation of sea water is one way to get salt. Mining salt deposits is another. The
      Message 2 of 27 , Apr 5, 2005
        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...> wrote:
        >
        > > Yes, I must accept /a/ as a PIE phoneme, since it sometimes
        occurs
        > > in environments where it would cause even greater embarrassment
        to
        > > posit /H2e/ or /eH2/. Some examples are *yag^- 'sacrifice', *sal-
        > > 'salt', *na:s- 'nose', but there are not many.
        >
        > I was wondering if there might be a way to connect sun, *sh2-wel-,
        > with salt, *sh2el-? (also sea, salt water). Semantically it would
        make
        > sense, since the way you got salt was by letting sea water
        evaporate
        > in the sun in dammed-in fields (note also the various Germanic
        verbs
        > in sw-, German schwelen "smolder", sweat (*swed-), seethe (*seud-)).
        >
        >
        > Torsten
        **********
        Solar evaporation of sea water is one way to get salt. Mining
        salt deposits is another. The latter was probably preceded by simply
        scraping efflorescences off rocks of the proper chemistry (usually
        nasty bitter stuff but I've done it in a emergency myself).
        So your suggestion, if true, has implications for the homeland of
        IE, which is generally considered lacking originally maritime words.
        Dan Milton
      • Piotr Gasiorowski
        ... In Poland s oldest salt mine, Wieliczka (now on the outskirts of Kraków), where there is evidence of a thriving salt industry as far back as ca. 3500 BC,
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 5, 2005
          Daniel J. Milton wrote:

          > Solar evaporation of sea water is one way to get salt. Mining
          > salt deposits is another. The latter was probably preceded by simply
          > scraping efflorescences off rocks of the proper chemistry (usually
          > nasty bitter stuff but I've done it in a emergency myself).
          > So your suggestion, if true, has implications for the homeland of
          > IE, which is generally considered lacking originally maritime words.

          In Poland's oldest salt mine, Wieliczka (now on the outskirts of
          Kraków), where there is evidence of a thriving salt industry as far back
          as ca. 3500 BC, salt was originally obtained by boiling saturated brine
          and letting it crystalize in conical clay pots. Wieliczka is in southern
          Poland, far inland.

          Piotr
        • Piotr Gasiorowski
          ... With pleasure, but it will have to wait till tomorrow. Piotr
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 5, 2005
            elmeras2000 wrote:
            >
            > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@i...>
            > wrote:

            >> As an alternative, one might consider the possibility that early *a
            >> was relegated to the peripheries of the system since it did not participate
            >> in productive vowel alternations ...

            > Could you explain the nature of such a process?

            With pleasure, but it will have to wait till tomorrow.

            Piotr
          • mkelkar2003
            ... Please refer to the following article by Nicholas Kazanas Sanskrit and Proto Indo European, M.
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 5, 2005
              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@r...>
              > wrote:
              > > Is the sound /a/ considered to be an original phoneme of Proto-
              > Indo-European? Or is it only the result of laryngeal colouring of
              > former *e (or *o?). In the vocabularies I have seen of Indo-
              > European, /a/ is especially frequent initially and before and
              > after /k/ (and sometimes /g/ or /gh/ - usually the velar stops, but
              > sometimes also the palatals). This suggests that it is a colouring
              > of another vowel (probably *e) in the vicinity of guttural
              > consonants, including the vanished laryngeal H2. But is there any
              > evidence that there was an original /a/ independent of surrounding
              > sounds? I know that postulated *a is rare in verb roots outside of
              > initially and near /k g gh/, but if one looks at attested IE
              > languages, one finds that /a/ seems quite frequent in Latin. What
              > explains /a/'s frequency in Latin? Where also does Celtic (Irish,
              > Welsh, Breton, Scots) /a/ come from (besides syllabic m and n
              > becoming am, an)? Is it common in these languages, or relatively
              > infrequent, since it was
              > > relatively infrequent in PIE? The same remarks and questions
              > apply to the diphthongs *ai and *au, which seem to be common only
              > initially and after /k/, although in Latin ae and au are not
              > infrequent. What explains these diphthongs' frequency in Latin?
              > >
              > > I invite any and all to reply to my questions.
              > >
              >
              >
              > The ablaut vowel of PIE might have been aa /a/ in pre-PIE. IE
              > speakers invaded Europe in several waves, separated by centuries. In
              > the languages of the last wave, the ablaut proces was finished, but
              > in the languages of earlier waves it might not have been. Therefore,
              > if a last-wave IE language borrows a word from their previous-wave
              > substrate that might contain an /a/, a vowel whose place had been
              > vacated by the ablaut process in the borrowing language. Cf. the
              > situation in English where /a/ exists only in borrowed words
              > like 'spa' (except for a few cases: father, rather etc).
              >
              > Palatal stops might in PIE have been alternating k/c^ and labiovelar
              > stops alternating kW/k, depending on context (especially the one of
              > ablaut e/o), later regularised as /c^ /> /s^/ > /s/ and /k/ in satem
              > languages and regularised (depalatised) as /k/ and /kW/ in centum
              > languages. Words borrowed fron a not-yet-ablauted language would
              > have non-alternating velar stops. Hence the association between
              > velar stops and /a/.
              >
              >
              > Torsten

              Please refer to the following article by Nicholas Kazanas

              "Sanskrit and Proto Indo European,"

              <http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/english/documents/SPIE.pdf>

              M. Kelkar
            • tgpedersen
              ... Mining ... simply ... (usually ... homeland of ... words. ... far back ... brine ... southern ... Another thing that puzzled me is that areas with old salt
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 6, 2005
                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@i...>
                wrote:
                > Daniel J. Milton wrote:
                >
                > > Solar evaporation of sea water is one way to get salt.
                Mining
                > > salt deposits is another. The latter was probably preceded by
                simply
                > > scraping efflorescences off rocks of the proper chemistry
                (usually
                > > nasty bitter stuff but I've done it in a emergency myself).
                > > So your suggestion, if true, has implications for the
                homeland of
                > > IE, which is generally considered lacking originally maritime
                words.
                >
                > In Poland's oldest salt mine, Wieliczka (now on the outskirts of
                > Kraków), where there is evidence of a thriving salt industry as
                far back
                > as ca. 3500 BC, salt was originally obtained by boiling saturated
                brine
                > and letting it crystalize in conical clay pots. Wieliczka is in
                southern
                > Poland, far inland.
                >

                Another thing that puzzled me is that areas with old salt mines have
                names like Halle (on the Saale river), Bad Hallein etc. Now these
                areas were once Celtic, but would a Celtic h- be borrowed into
                Germanic as h-?


                Torsten
              • tgpedersen
                ... words ... could be ... *dam- zähmen , *ag- treiben , *ar- pflügen . alternating with a:, ai, au : OE *a:te Hafer
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 6, 2005
                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "elmeras2000" <jer@c...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Kuhn points out that the latest-acquired domesticated plants and
                  > > animals seem to have root /a/. That would speak for all such
                  words
                  > > being loans.
                  >
                  > Could you give a little list - and a specific reference? That
                  could
                  be
                  > very helpful. Any possible connection with Schrijver's language of
                  > bird names?
                  >
                  *dam- "zähmen", *ag- "treiben", *ar- "pflügen".
                  alternating with a:, ai, au :
                  OE *a:te "Hafer" < *aito:(n), got. atisk "Saatfeld", lat
                  ador "Spelt".
                  *agros "Acker", *bhars-/*bharis (lat. far "Spelz", germ.
                  *bariz "Gerste", gk phe:ron "Nahrung" < *bharsom), gr.
                  kapos/ke:pos "Garten", germ. *ho:Bo: "Hufe", gr. ákhne: germ.
                  *ah(a)no:/*ag(a)no: "Spreu" lat. agna "Ähre", lat. acus "Spreu",
                  germ.*ahs-/**ahis- "Ähre", gr. kaláme: germ *halmaz OBg slama
                  "Halm, Stroh". Of these only agros is found in IndIr.
                  Lat. fa:ba "Bohne", ra:pa "Rübe"
                  gr aiks etc "goat"
                  lat. caper "goat"
                  MHG hatele etc "goat"
                  lat. haedus etc "goat"

                  *ghans- "goose"
                  *anat-/*natja "duck"

                  Of these, the duck word shows the aCC-/CaC- alternation
                  charateristic
                  of the words from Schriijver's language of bird names.

                  Many of them belong to a group of words that have /a/ in both Latin
                  and Germanic: ad/at, aqua/ahwa, arcus/earh etc. Among them is
                  Latin annum, Gothic athn- "year", to which I'll compare Basque
                  adin "age". This is obviously not a Basque loan from Latin.

                  Further, a lot of water words: aqua, lacus, stagnum, na:vis,
                  na:re/nata:re, vadum, mare. + Greek: *sandaz, *o:fero, OE
                  no:sa "peninsula" vs gr. ne:sos (For some reason, all these occur on
                  my list of possible Austronesian cognates).

                  And further, Kuhn points out that in the system of Old European
                  hydronyms, /a/ is very frequent, especially initially. Obviously,
                  the last invading wave of IE-speakers must have arrived after
                  pre-PIE /a/ was finished getting ablauted, leaving a vacant
                  place in the vowel system.


                  Torsten
                • Piotr Gasiorowski
                  ... I d imagine it as follows: The pre-PIE arrangement of non-high vowels was vertical without a front/back contrast, i.e. there were two true vowels
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 6, 2005
                    elmeras2000 wrote:

                    > Could you explain the nature of such a process?

                    I'd imagine it as follows:

                    The pre-PIE arrangement of non-high vowels was vertical without a
                    front/back contrast, i.e. there were two "true" vowels differing in height:

                    [-low] *&
                    [+low] *a

                    Their distribution was unbalanced: *a was restricted to root morphemes,
                    while *& could occur freely also in derivational affixes and
                    inflectional endings. This fact alone made *& by far the more frequent
                    vowel quality. A possible reason for such an asymmetry would have been
                    root stress at some stage in the development of pre-PIE, permitting the
                    full range of vocalic and consonantal contrasts in roots but
                    constraining it in other morphemes. As is often the case with
                    mid-central vowels, *& developed several allophones, and eventually
                    split into two mid-vowel phonemes, front *e and back *o (the latter
                    originally the conditioned member of the pair). Various phonological
                    processes produced also their lengthened counterparts (*e: and *o:) in
                    certain environments, and caused the elision of the vowel in others. On
                    the other hand, *a could be lengthened or lost, but did not alternate
                    with other vowels.

                    Patterns of alternation involving *e as the fundamental vocalism
                    alongside derived o-grades and nil-grades became grammaticalised, so
                    that the choice of a given grade depended largely on its morphological
                    function. Roots containing old *a remained outside the ablaut system,
                    and rare alternations like *na:s-/*nas- were perceived as aberrant
                    (partly because their defective distribution: they did not occur in
                    suffixes). Original a-roots had no o-grade derivatives, and there may
                    have been a tendency to get rid of their lengthened and reduced
                    allomorphs, generalising constant a-vocalism instead. A number of such
                    roots survived as a marginal component of the PIE lexicon, but otherwise
                    the PIE morphophonological system (and especially derivational
                    morphology) was pervaded and dominated by ablaut rules defining the
                    various productive transformations of fundamental *e.

                    Compare with the above the later tendency to eliminate ablaut from roots
                    with *e coloured (more recently) by an adjacent consonant. Alternations
                    such as *h2ak^- (< *h2ek^-)/*h2ok^-/*h2e:k^- are attested but
                    infrequent, while those like *kan- (< *ken-)/*kon- or *kap- (<
                    *kep-)/*ke:p- are extremely rare indeed. Other minor patterns (such as
                    Narten ablaut -- also, like "independent *a", restricted to root
                    syllables) were likewise marginalised.

                    To sum up, it's possible to view "independent *a" as a peripheral
                    archaism rather than an innovation. If this scenario makes any sense,
                    PIE came very close to being a monovocalic language at a sufficiently
                    abstract level of phonological description (its derivational morphemes
                    can be so analysed, and so can _most_ roots), but the messy residue of
                    an earlier stage survived at least in the phonemic makeup of root
                    morphemes, whose fundamental vowel may have been something else than *e.

                    Piotr
                  • elmeras2000
                    ... and ... of ... Generally posited as *demH2-, but there is not a single attestation of the root vowel as /e/. Interesting. *ag- treiben Generally posited
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 6, 2005
                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "elmeras2000" <jer@c...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Kuhn points out that the latest-acquired domesticated plants
                      and
                      > > > animals seem to have root /a/. That would speak for all such
                      > words
                      > > > being loans.
                      > >
                      > > Could you give a little list - and a specific reference? That
                      > could
                      > be
                      > > very helpful. Any possible connection with Schrijver's language
                      of
                      > > bird names?
                      > >
                      > *dam- "zähmen"

                      Generally posited as *demH2-, but there is not a single attestation
                      of the root vowel as /e/. Interesting.

                      *ag- "treiben"

                      Generally posited as *H2eg^-, laryngeal proved by Ved. í:jate from
                      *Hí-Hg^-e-tor, but laryngeal colour unsupported; note Hitt. akkalan
                      (acc., ntr.?) 'furrow' which speaks against *H2-. Root really *H1ag^-
                      ?

                      > *ar- "pflügen"

                      Generally posited as *H2erH3-; loan relation with Semitic possible.
                      Tocharian A and B have a:re 'plow' (sbst.).

                      > alternating with a:, ai, au :
                      > OE *a:te "Hafer" < *aito:(n), got. atisk "Saatfeld", lat
                      > ador "Spelt".

                      ai/a as in the birds' names. Points to substratum.

                      > *agros "Acker"

                      Certainly PIE word, but earlier borrowing possible. Connection with
                      *Hag^- 'drive' seems obvious. Word-formation not clear: *-ro- should
                      form adjectives.

                      > *bhars-/*bharis (lat. far "Spelz", germ.
                      > *bariz "Gerste", gk phe:ron "Nahrung" < *bharsom),

                      Impressive with its stable /a/.

                      > gr. kapos/ke:pos "Garten", germ. *ho:Bo: "Hufe",

                      Looks like a locus/loca pair with accent shift.

                      > gr. ákhne: germ.
                      > *ah(a)no:/*ag(a)no: "Spreu" lat. agna "Ähre", lat. acus "Spreu",
                      > germ.*ahs-/**ahis- "Ähre",

                      This looks indigenous IE: *H2ek^- 'prick, be sharp', *H2(e)k^-ro-
                      'sharp'. s-stem normal in IE adjectival nouns, *H2ák^-os/es- would
                      be 'sharpness'.

                      > gr. kaláme: germ *halmaz OBg slama
                      > "Halm, Stroh".

                      Looks like *k^ál&-mos, *-maH2

                      > Of these only agros is found in IndIr.

                      > Lat. fa:ba "Bohne"

                      Recte faba. Collective corresponding to Sl. bobU. Strange
                      relationship to Gk. phákos, Alb. bathë, even stranger to Germ.
                      *bauno: .

                      > ra:pa "Rübe"

                      Slavic re^pa would demand positing a pair *ré:H2p-/*ráH2p-. That
                      could be inherited, but if re^p- is from *raip- it is rather a bird-
                      language word.

                      > gr aiks etc "goat"

                      Even strengthened by the vacillation *(H)ayg^-/*(H)ag^-, cf. Skt.
                      ajá:-, Lith. oz^y~s, probably even OCS koza. The palatal is
                      supported by Armenian ayc.

                      > lat. caper "goat"

                      Again *-ro- not forming adjectives. Looks foreign.

                      > MHG hatele etc "goat"
                      > lat. haedus etc "goat"

                      Very impressive. I understand the Semitic form is *gadj-. Can't
                      check here right now.

                      > *ghans- "goose"

                      Skt. ham.sá- ensures PIE age. But that could be a borrowing already.

                      > *anat-/*natja "duck"
                      >
                      > Of these, the duck word shows the aCC-/CaC- alternation
                      > charateristic
                      > of the words from Schriijver's language of bird names.

                      It works fine as *án&2t-iH2/*n.H2t-yáH2-, but the vocalism is
                      remarkable: initial plain /a-/. Looks like a borrowed word in PIE
                      already.

                      >
                      > Many of them belong to a group of words that have /a/ in both
                      Latin
                      > and Germanic: ad/at, aqua/ahwa, arcus/earh etc. Among them is
                      > Latin annum, Gothic athn- "year", to which I'll compare Basque
                      > adin "age". This is obviously not a Basque loan from Latin.
                      >
                      > Further, a lot of water words: aqua, lacus, stagnum, na:vis,
                      > na:re/nata:re, vadum, mare. + Greek: *sandaz, *o:fero, OE
                      > no:sa "peninsula" vs gr. ne:sos (For some reason, all these occur
                      on
                      > my list of possible Austronesian cognates).

                      'Peninsula' could be derived from 'nose', but that is strange too.

                      Ufer looks old, Gmc. *o:fera-, Gk. é:peiros pointing to *á:per-o-/*-
                      yo-. Derived from *ap- 'water' or from *apo 'off'? Or are both
                      related?

                      Celtic -o- in OIr. loch, muir is strange.

                      MHG sampt 'sand' points to accent doublets: PGmc. *samft/*sand- from
                      *sámHt-/*samHt-´ (regular Verner-sensitive treatment of mt in
                      Germanic).

                      stagnum could have regular schwa secundum: /stgno-/ would be
                      regularly realized as [st'gno-] with a rudimentary vowel.

                      na:vis is well-supported by other IE languages; so is na:re, Ved.
                      sná:ti 'wash'.

                      > And further, Kuhn points out that in the system of Old European
                      > hydronyms, /a/ is very frequent, especially initially. Obviously,
                      > the last invading wave of IE-speakers must have arrived after
                      > pre-PIE /a/ was finished getting ablauted, leaving a vacant
                      > place in the vowel system.


                      This is a very interesting and most impressive list, certainly
                      showing something we have to take seriously.

                      I do not understand the last sentence of yours, about /a/
                      being "finished getting ablauted". I agree if it just means that the
                      foreign /a/ added a new vowel to the language at a time when any
                      earlier /a/ had already been changed to /e/ (or its prestage) in pre-
                      PIE. Your wording sounds cryptic to me; could you to specify what
                      you really mean?

                      Jens
                    • mkapovic@ffzg.hr
                      ... Lat. far and faba are not very conviencing in proving an IE *a since in Latin a/o difference is not very stabile after labials, that is *o tends to change
                      Message 10 of 27 , Apr 6, 2005
                        > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...>
                        > wrote:
                        >>
                        >> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "elmeras2000" <jer@c...> wrote:
                        >> >
                        >> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...>
                        >> wrote:

                        >> *bhars-/*bharis (lat. far "Spelz", germ.
                        >> *bariz "Gerste", gk phe:ron "Nahrung" < *bharsom),
                        >
                        > Impressive with its stable /a/.
                        >> Lat. fa:ba "Bohne"
                        >
                        > Recte faba. Collective corresponding to Sl. bobU. Strange
                        > relationship to Gk. phákos, Alb. bathë, even stranger to Germ.
                        > *bauno: .

                        Lat. far and faba are not very conviencing in proving an IE *a since in
                        Latin a/o difference is not very stabile after labials, that is *o tends
                        to change to /a/ (mare, ca:seus, canis, parie:s, margo: etc.), cf.
                        Schrijver 1991.

                        Mate
                      • tgpedersen
                        ... Sory for the smartalecky wording. What I meant is this: According to Møller and Cuny, the ablaut vowel was /a/ in pre-PIE (and of course e/o/zero in PIE).
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 6, 2005
                          > I do not understand the last sentence of yours, about /a/
                          > being "finished getting ablauted". I agree if it just means that the
                          > foreign /a/ added a new vowel to the language at a time when any
                          > earlier /a/ had already been changed to /e/ (or its prestage) in pre-
                          > PIE. Your wording sounds cryptic to me; could you to specify what
                          > you really mean?
                          >

                          Sory for the smartalecky wording. What I meant is this: According to
                          Møller and Cuny, the ablaut vowel was /a/ in pre-PIE (and of course
                          e/o/zero in PIE). Therefore loans with /a/ (into a three-vowel system
                          i/u/a ?) into pre-PIE would appear in the daughter languaes as having
                          ablaut (since their /a/ would be subject to the laws which produced
                          the ablaut alternations), while those borrowed later (into a five-
                          vowel system i/e/(vacant)a/u/o ?) would appear to have stable /a/.


                          Torsten
                        • Miguel Carrasquer
                          On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:19:37 +0000, elmeras2000 ... Well, Hitt. also speaks against *g^. I read in Melchert that Oettinger sees not as
                          Message 12 of 27 , Apr 6, 2005
                            On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:19:37 +0000, elmeras2000
                            <jer@...> wrote:

                            >*ag- "treiben"
                            >
                            >Generally posited as *H2eg^-, laryngeal proved by Ved. í:jate from
                            >*Hí-Hg^-e-tor, but laryngeal colour unsupported; note Hitt. akkalan
                            >(acc., ntr.?) 'furrow' which speaks against *H2-. Root really *H1ag^-
                            >?

                            Well, Hitt. <akkalan> also speaks against *g^.

                            I read in Melchert that Oettinger sees <akkalan> not as
                            "furrow" as a kind of plow. A connection with *ok^-,
                            *o:k^-, *ak^- "sharp" seems likely (cf. *ok^eta: "Egge", and
                            the words with -l- formants listed in IEW).


                            =======================
                            Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
                            mcv@...
                          • elmeras2000
                            ... from ... akkalan ... *H1ag^- ... I do not find any examples showing a difference between *-gl- and *- kl-, let alone *-g-tl- and *-k-tl-. I am aware that
                            Message 13 of 27 , Apr 6, 2005
                              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@w...> wrote:
                              > On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:19:37 +0000, elmeras2000
                              > <jer@c...> wrote:
                              >
                              > >*ag- "treiben"
                              > >
                              > >Generally posited as *H2eg^-, laryngeal proved by Ved. í:jate
                              from
                              > >*Hí-Hg^-e-tor, but laryngeal colour unsupported; note Hitt.
                              akkalan
                              > >(acc., ntr.?) 'furrow' which speaks against *H2-. Root really
                              *H1ag^-
                              > >?
                              >
                              > Well, Hitt. <akkalan> also speaks against *g^.
                              >
                              > I read in Melchert that Oettinger sees <akkalan> not as
                              > "furrow" as a kind of plow. A connection with *ok^-,
                              > *o:k^-, *ak^- "sharp" seems likely (cf. *ok^eta: "Egge", and
                              > the words with -l- formants listed in IEW).

                              I do not find any examples showing a difference between *-gl- and *-
                              kl-, let alone *-g-tl- and *-k-tl-. I am aware that this only
                              weakens the probative value if the etymological suggestion.

                              Jens
                            • Piotr Gasiorowski
                              ... There are quite a few puzzling lexical correspondences connecting Slavic with Italic -- things like Lat. secu:ris, Slavic sekyra axe , or Lat. lu:na,
                              Message 14 of 27 , Apr 7, 2005
                                elmeras2000 wrote:

                                > Recte faba. Collective corresponding to Sl. bobU.

                                There are quite a few puzzling lexical correspondences connecting Slavic
                                with Italic -- things like Lat. secu:ris, Slavic sekyra 'axe', or Lat.
                                lu:na, Slavic *luna < *louksnah2 (with reference to the moon). They
                                might point to prehistoric contacts somewhere in Central Europe.
                                *bHabHo-/*bHabHah2 looks like one of those.

                                > Strange
                                > relationship to Gk. phákos, Alb. bathë, even stranger to Germ.
                                > *bauno: .

                                *bauno: could easily result from early dissimilatory lenition of a
                                bilabial fricative in *BaBna: < *bHabH-nah2, making the relationship
                                less strange (though leaving the *n unexplained). The "Balkan" variant
                                *bHak^o-/*bHak^ah2 remains fully strange, of course.

                                Piotr
                              • tgpedersen
                                ... Slavic ... Lat. ... They ... relationship ... variant ... -bÓnÒ castor-oil bean, plant from http://www.cbold.ddl.ish-lyon.cnrs.fr/Docs/Guthrie.html
                                Message 15 of 27 , Apr 7, 2005
                                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@i...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > elmeras2000 wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Recte faba. Collective corresponding to Sl. bobU.
                                  >
                                  > There are quite a few puzzling lexical correspondences connecting
                                  Slavic
                                  > with Italic -- things like Lat. secu:ris, Slavic sekyra 'axe', or
                                  Lat.
                                  > lu:na, Slavic *luna < *louksnah2 (with reference to the moon).
                                  They
                                  > might point to prehistoric contacts somewhere in Central Europe.
                                  > *bHabHo-/*bHabHah2 looks like one of those.
                                  >
                                  > > Strange
                                  > > relationship to Gk. phákos, Alb. bathë, even stranger to Germ.
                                  > > *bauno: .
                                  >
                                  > *bauno: could easily result from early dissimilatory lenition of a
                                  > bilabial fricative in *BaBna: < *bHabH-nah2, making the
                                  relationship
                                  > less strange (though leaving the *n unexplained). The "Balkan"
                                  variant
                                  > *bHak^o-/*bHak^ah2 remains fully strange, of course.
                                  >


                                  -bÓnÒ castor-oil bean, plant


                                  from
                                  http://www.cbold.ddl.ish-lyon.cnrs.fr/Docs/Guthrie.html

                                  believe it or not.


                                  Torsten
                                • tgpedersen
                                  ... ... language ... Has Semitic connections. ... would ... Might also be part of loan complex with Lat. co:s whetstone , cudo strike ,
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Apr 7, 2005
                                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "elmeras2000" <jer@c...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "elmeras2000" <jer@c...> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen"
                                    <tgpedersen@h...>
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Kuhn points out that the latest-acquired domesticated plants
                                    > and
                                    > > > > animals seem to have root /a/. That would speak for all such
                                    > > words
                                    > > > > being loans.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Could you give a little list - and a specific reference? That
                                    > > could
                                    > > be
                                    > > > very helpful. Any possible connection with Schrijver's
                                    language
                                    > of
                                    > > > bird names?
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > > *bhars-/*bharis (lat. far "Spelz", germ.
                                    > > *bariz "Gerste", gk phe:ron "Nahrung" < *bharsom),
                                    >
                                    > Impressive with its stable /a/.
                                    >

                                    Has Semitic connections.


                                    > > gr. ákhne: germ.
                                    > > *ah(a)no:/*ag(a)no: "Spreu" lat. agna "Ähre", lat. acus "Spreu",
                                    > > germ.*ahs-/**ahis- "Ähre",
                                    >
                                    > This looks indigenous IE: *H2ek^- 'prick, be sharp', *H2(e)k^-ro-
                                    > 'sharp'. s-stem normal in IE adjectival nouns, *H2ák^-os/es-
                                    would
                                    > be 'sharpness'.

                                    Might also be part of loan complex with Lat. co:s "whetstone",
                                    cudo "strike", which looks like a language-of-bird-names type
                                    alternation.

                                    > Ufer looks old, Gmc. *o:fera-, Gk. é:peiros pointing to *á:per-o-
                                    /*-
                                    > yo-. Derived from *ap- 'water' or from *apo 'off'? Or are both
                                    > related?

                                    On that subject, Hittite eku-/aku- "drink" and appa "away" vs. h_ap-
                                    "water" is a problem with respect to the initial laryngeal. But
                                    then, the words might have been borrowed and reborrowed with and
                                    without the laryngeal.


                                    Torsten
                                  • tgpedersen
                                    ... make ... And BTW, German schwinden be reduced, run low might suddenly also turn out to be semantically relevant and therefore related. Torsten
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Apr 15, 2005
                                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Yes, I must accept /a/ as a PIE phoneme, since it sometimes occurs
                                      > > in environments where it would cause even greater embarrassment to
                                      > > posit /H2e/ or /eH2/. Some examples are *yag^- 'sacrifice', *sal-
                                      > > 'salt', *na:s- 'nose', but there are not many.
                                      >
                                      > I was wondering if there might be a way to connect sun, *sh2-wel-,
                                      > with salt, *sh2el-? (also sea, salt water). Semantically it would
                                      make
                                      > sense, since the way you got salt was by letting sea water evaporate
                                      > in the sun in dammed-in fields (note also the various Germanic verbs
                                      > in sw-, German schwelen "smolder", sweat (*swed-), seethe (*seud-)).


                                      And BTW, German 'schwinden' "be reduced, run low" might suddenly also
                                      turn out to be semantically relevant and therefore related.


                                      Torsten
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