Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Indo-European /a/

Expand Messages
  • elmeras2000
    ... Could you give a little list - and a specific reference? That could be very helpful. Any possible connection with Schrijver s language of bird names? Jens
    Message 1 of 27 , Apr 5, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...> wrote:

      >
      > Kuhn points out that the latest-acquired domesticated plants and
      > animals seem to have root /a/. That would speak for all such words
      > being loans.

      Could you give a little list - and a specific reference? That could be
      very helpful. Any possible connection with Schrijver's language of
      bird names?

      Jens
    • elmeras2000
      ... was ... participate ... to ... *a ... Could you explain the nature of such a process? Jens
      Message 2 of 27 , Apr 5, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@i...> wrote:
        >
        > As an alternative, one might consider the possibility that early *a
        was
        > relegated to the peripheries of the system since it did not
        participate
        > in productive vowel alternations and so had no grammatical function
        to
        > play. This is more or less Kurylowicz's position: he points out that
        *a
        > occurs mostly in isolated "concrete" lexemes.

        Could you explain the nature of such a process?

        Jens
      • Daniel J. Milton
        ... occurs ... to ... make ... evaporate ... verbs ... ********** Solar evaporation of sea water is one way to get salt. Mining salt deposits is another. The
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 5, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...> wrote:
          >
          > > Yes, I must accept /a/ as a PIE phoneme, since it sometimes
          occurs
          > > in environments where it would cause even greater embarrassment
          to
          > > posit /H2e/ or /eH2/. Some examples are *yag^- 'sacrifice', *sal-
          > > 'salt', *na:s- 'nose', but there are not many.
          >
          > I was wondering if there might be a way to connect sun, *sh2-wel-,
          > with salt, *sh2el-? (also sea, salt water). Semantically it would
          make
          > sense, since the way you got salt was by letting sea water
          evaporate
          > in the sun in dammed-in fields (note also the various Germanic
          verbs
          > in sw-, German schwelen "smolder", sweat (*swed-), seethe (*seud-)).
          >
          >
          > Torsten
          **********
          Solar evaporation of sea water is one way to get salt. Mining
          salt deposits is another. The latter was probably preceded by simply
          scraping efflorescences off rocks of the proper chemistry (usually
          nasty bitter stuff but I've done it in a emergency myself).
          So your suggestion, if true, has implications for the homeland of
          IE, which is generally considered lacking originally maritime words.
          Dan Milton
        • Piotr Gasiorowski
          ... In Poland s oldest salt mine, Wieliczka (now on the outskirts of Kraków), where there is evidence of a thriving salt industry as far back as ca. 3500 BC,
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 5, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Daniel J. Milton wrote:

            > Solar evaporation of sea water is one way to get salt. Mining
            > salt deposits is another. The latter was probably preceded by simply
            > scraping efflorescences off rocks of the proper chemistry (usually
            > nasty bitter stuff but I've done it in a emergency myself).
            > So your suggestion, if true, has implications for the homeland of
            > IE, which is generally considered lacking originally maritime words.

            In Poland's oldest salt mine, Wieliczka (now on the outskirts of
            Kraków), where there is evidence of a thriving salt industry as far back
            as ca. 3500 BC, salt was originally obtained by boiling saturated brine
            and letting it crystalize in conical clay pots. Wieliczka is in southern
            Poland, far inland.

            Piotr
          • Piotr Gasiorowski
            ... With pleasure, but it will have to wait till tomorrow. Piotr
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 5, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              elmeras2000 wrote:
              >
              > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@i...>
              > wrote:

              >> As an alternative, one might consider the possibility that early *a
              >> was relegated to the peripheries of the system since it did not participate
              >> in productive vowel alternations ...

              > Could you explain the nature of such a process?

              With pleasure, but it will have to wait till tomorrow.

              Piotr
            • mkelkar2003
              ... Please refer to the following article by Nicholas Kazanas Sanskrit and Proto Indo European, M.
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 5, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Jarrette <anjarrette@r...>
                > wrote:
                > > Is the sound /a/ considered to be an original phoneme of Proto-
                > Indo-European? Or is it only the result of laryngeal colouring of
                > former *e (or *o?). In the vocabularies I have seen of Indo-
                > European, /a/ is especially frequent initially and before and
                > after /k/ (and sometimes /g/ or /gh/ - usually the velar stops, but
                > sometimes also the palatals). This suggests that it is a colouring
                > of another vowel (probably *e) in the vicinity of guttural
                > consonants, including the vanished laryngeal H2. But is there any
                > evidence that there was an original /a/ independent of surrounding
                > sounds? I know that postulated *a is rare in verb roots outside of
                > initially and near /k g gh/, but if one looks at attested IE
                > languages, one finds that /a/ seems quite frequent in Latin. What
                > explains /a/'s frequency in Latin? Where also does Celtic (Irish,
                > Welsh, Breton, Scots) /a/ come from (besides syllabic m and n
                > becoming am, an)? Is it common in these languages, or relatively
                > infrequent, since it was
                > > relatively infrequent in PIE? The same remarks and questions
                > apply to the diphthongs *ai and *au, which seem to be common only
                > initially and after /k/, although in Latin ae and au are not
                > infrequent. What explains these diphthongs' frequency in Latin?
                > >
                > > I invite any and all to reply to my questions.
                > >
                >
                >
                > The ablaut vowel of PIE might have been aa /a/ in pre-PIE. IE
                > speakers invaded Europe in several waves, separated by centuries. In
                > the languages of the last wave, the ablaut proces was finished, but
                > in the languages of earlier waves it might not have been. Therefore,
                > if a last-wave IE language borrows a word from their previous-wave
                > substrate that might contain an /a/, a vowel whose place had been
                > vacated by the ablaut process in the borrowing language. Cf. the
                > situation in English where /a/ exists only in borrowed words
                > like 'spa' (except for a few cases: father, rather etc).
                >
                > Palatal stops might in PIE have been alternating k/c^ and labiovelar
                > stops alternating kW/k, depending on context (especially the one of
                > ablaut e/o), later regularised as /c^ /> /s^/ > /s/ and /k/ in satem
                > languages and regularised (depalatised) as /k/ and /kW/ in centum
                > languages. Words borrowed fron a not-yet-ablauted language would
                > have non-alternating velar stops. Hence the association between
                > velar stops and /a/.
                >
                >
                > Torsten

                Please refer to the following article by Nicholas Kazanas

                "Sanskrit and Proto Indo European,"

                <http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/english/documents/SPIE.pdf>

                M. Kelkar
              • tgpedersen
                ... Mining ... simply ... (usually ... homeland of ... words. ... far back ... brine ... southern ... Another thing that puzzled me is that areas with old salt
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 6, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@i...>
                  wrote:
                  > Daniel J. Milton wrote:
                  >
                  > > Solar evaporation of sea water is one way to get salt.
                  Mining
                  > > salt deposits is another. The latter was probably preceded by
                  simply
                  > > scraping efflorescences off rocks of the proper chemistry
                  (usually
                  > > nasty bitter stuff but I've done it in a emergency myself).
                  > > So your suggestion, if true, has implications for the
                  homeland of
                  > > IE, which is generally considered lacking originally maritime
                  words.
                  >
                  > In Poland's oldest salt mine, Wieliczka (now on the outskirts of
                  > Kraków), where there is evidence of a thriving salt industry as
                  far back
                  > as ca. 3500 BC, salt was originally obtained by boiling saturated
                  brine
                  > and letting it crystalize in conical clay pots. Wieliczka is in
                  southern
                  > Poland, far inland.
                  >

                  Another thing that puzzled me is that areas with old salt mines have
                  names like Halle (on the Saale river), Bad Hallein etc. Now these
                  areas were once Celtic, but would a Celtic h- be borrowed into
                  Germanic as h-?


                  Torsten
                • tgpedersen
                  ... words ... could be ... *dam- zähmen , *ag- treiben , *ar- pflügen . alternating with a:, ai, au : OE *a:te Hafer
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 6, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "elmeras2000" <jer@c...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > > Kuhn points out that the latest-acquired domesticated plants and
                    > > animals seem to have root /a/. That would speak for all such
                    words
                    > > being loans.
                    >
                    > Could you give a little list - and a specific reference? That
                    could
                    be
                    > very helpful. Any possible connection with Schrijver's language of
                    > bird names?
                    >
                    *dam- "zähmen", *ag- "treiben", *ar- "pflügen".
                    alternating with a:, ai, au :
                    OE *a:te "Hafer" < *aito:(n), got. atisk "Saatfeld", lat
                    ador "Spelt".
                    *agros "Acker", *bhars-/*bharis (lat. far "Spelz", germ.
                    *bariz "Gerste", gk phe:ron "Nahrung" < *bharsom), gr.
                    kapos/ke:pos "Garten", germ. *ho:Bo: "Hufe", gr. ákhne: germ.
                    *ah(a)no:/*ag(a)no: "Spreu" lat. agna "Ähre", lat. acus "Spreu",
                    germ.*ahs-/**ahis- "Ähre", gr. kaláme: germ *halmaz OBg slama
                    "Halm, Stroh". Of these only agros is found in IndIr.
                    Lat. fa:ba "Bohne", ra:pa "Rübe"
                    gr aiks etc "goat"
                    lat. caper "goat"
                    MHG hatele etc "goat"
                    lat. haedus etc "goat"

                    *ghans- "goose"
                    *anat-/*natja "duck"

                    Of these, the duck word shows the aCC-/CaC- alternation
                    charateristic
                    of the words from Schriijver's language of bird names.

                    Many of them belong to a group of words that have /a/ in both Latin
                    and Germanic: ad/at, aqua/ahwa, arcus/earh etc. Among them is
                    Latin annum, Gothic athn- "year", to which I'll compare Basque
                    adin "age". This is obviously not a Basque loan from Latin.

                    Further, a lot of water words: aqua, lacus, stagnum, na:vis,
                    na:re/nata:re, vadum, mare. + Greek: *sandaz, *o:fero, OE
                    no:sa "peninsula" vs gr. ne:sos (For some reason, all these occur on
                    my list of possible Austronesian cognates).

                    And further, Kuhn points out that in the system of Old European
                    hydronyms, /a/ is very frequent, especially initially. Obviously,
                    the last invading wave of IE-speakers must have arrived after
                    pre-PIE /a/ was finished getting ablauted, leaving a vacant
                    place in the vowel system.


                    Torsten
                  • Piotr Gasiorowski
                    ... I d imagine it as follows: The pre-PIE arrangement of non-high vowels was vertical without a front/back contrast, i.e. there were two true vowels
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 6, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      elmeras2000 wrote:

                      > Could you explain the nature of such a process?

                      I'd imagine it as follows:

                      The pre-PIE arrangement of non-high vowels was vertical without a
                      front/back contrast, i.e. there were two "true" vowels differing in height:

                      [-low] *&
                      [+low] *a

                      Their distribution was unbalanced: *a was restricted to root morphemes,
                      while *& could occur freely also in derivational affixes and
                      inflectional endings. This fact alone made *& by far the more frequent
                      vowel quality. A possible reason for such an asymmetry would have been
                      root stress at some stage in the development of pre-PIE, permitting the
                      full range of vocalic and consonantal contrasts in roots but
                      constraining it in other morphemes. As is often the case with
                      mid-central vowels, *& developed several allophones, and eventually
                      split into two mid-vowel phonemes, front *e and back *o (the latter
                      originally the conditioned member of the pair). Various phonological
                      processes produced also their lengthened counterparts (*e: and *o:) in
                      certain environments, and caused the elision of the vowel in others. On
                      the other hand, *a could be lengthened or lost, but did not alternate
                      with other vowels.

                      Patterns of alternation involving *e as the fundamental vocalism
                      alongside derived o-grades and nil-grades became grammaticalised, so
                      that the choice of a given grade depended largely on its morphological
                      function. Roots containing old *a remained outside the ablaut system,
                      and rare alternations like *na:s-/*nas- were perceived as aberrant
                      (partly because their defective distribution: they did not occur in
                      suffixes). Original a-roots had no o-grade derivatives, and there may
                      have been a tendency to get rid of their lengthened and reduced
                      allomorphs, generalising constant a-vocalism instead. A number of such
                      roots survived as a marginal component of the PIE lexicon, but otherwise
                      the PIE morphophonological system (and especially derivational
                      morphology) was pervaded and dominated by ablaut rules defining the
                      various productive transformations of fundamental *e.

                      Compare with the above the later tendency to eliminate ablaut from roots
                      with *e coloured (more recently) by an adjacent consonant. Alternations
                      such as *h2ak^- (< *h2ek^-)/*h2ok^-/*h2e:k^- are attested but
                      infrequent, while those like *kan- (< *ken-)/*kon- or *kap- (<
                      *kep-)/*ke:p- are extremely rare indeed. Other minor patterns (such as
                      Narten ablaut -- also, like "independent *a", restricted to root
                      syllables) were likewise marginalised.

                      To sum up, it's possible to view "independent *a" as a peripheral
                      archaism rather than an innovation. If this scenario makes any sense,
                      PIE came very close to being a monovocalic language at a sufficiently
                      abstract level of phonological description (its derivational morphemes
                      can be so analysed, and so can _most_ roots), but the messy residue of
                      an earlier stage survived at least in the phonemic makeup of root
                      morphemes, whose fundamental vowel may have been something else than *e.

                      Piotr
                    • elmeras2000
                      ... and ... of ... Generally posited as *demH2-, but there is not a single attestation of the root vowel as /e/. Interesting. *ag- treiben Generally posited
                      Message 10 of 27 , Apr 6, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "elmeras2000" <jer@c...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Kuhn points out that the latest-acquired domesticated plants
                        and
                        > > > animals seem to have root /a/. That would speak for all such
                        > words
                        > > > being loans.
                        > >
                        > > Could you give a little list - and a specific reference? That
                        > could
                        > be
                        > > very helpful. Any possible connection with Schrijver's language
                        of
                        > > bird names?
                        > >
                        > *dam- "zähmen"

                        Generally posited as *demH2-, but there is not a single attestation
                        of the root vowel as /e/. Interesting.

                        *ag- "treiben"

                        Generally posited as *H2eg^-, laryngeal proved by Ved. í:jate from
                        *Hí-Hg^-e-tor, but laryngeal colour unsupported; note Hitt. akkalan
                        (acc., ntr.?) 'furrow' which speaks against *H2-. Root really *H1ag^-
                        ?

                        > *ar- "pflügen"

                        Generally posited as *H2erH3-; loan relation with Semitic possible.
                        Tocharian A and B have a:re 'plow' (sbst.).

                        > alternating with a:, ai, au :
                        > OE *a:te "Hafer" < *aito:(n), got. atisk "Saatfeld", lat
                        > ador "Spelt".

                        ai/a as in the birds' names. Points to substratum.

                        > *agros "Acker"

                        Certainly PIE word, but earlier borrowing possible. Connection with
                        *Hag^- 'drive' seems obvious. Word-formation not clear: *-ro- should
                        form adjectives.

                        > *bhars-/*bharis (lat. far "Spelz", germ.
                        > *bariz "Gerste", gk phe:ron "Nahrung" < *bharsom),

                        Impressive with its stable /a/.

                        > gr. kapos/ke:pos "Garten", germ. *ho:Bo: "Hufe",

                        Looks like a locus/loca pair with accent shift.

                        > gr. ákhne: germ.
                        > *ah(a)no:/*ag(a)no: "Spreu" lat. agna "Ähre", lat. acus "Spreu",
                        > germ.*ahs-/**ahis- "Ähre",

                        This looks indigenous IE: *H2ek^- 'prick, be sharp', *H2(e)k^-ro-
                        'sharp'. s-stem normal in IE adjectival nouns, *H2ák^-os/es- would
                        be 'sharpness'.

                        > gr. kaláme: germ *halmaz OBg slama
                        > "Halm, Stroh".

                        Looks like *k^ál&-mos, *-maH2

                        > Of these only agros is found in IndIr.

                        > Lat. fa:ba "Bohne"

                        Recte faba. Collective corresponding to Sl. bobU. Strange
                        relationship to Gk. phákos, Alb. bathë, even stranger to Germ.
                        *bauno: .

                        > ra:pa "Rübe"

                        Slavic re^pa would demand positing a pair *ré:H2p-/*ráH2p-. That
                        could be inherited, but if re^p- is from *raip- it is rather a bird-
                        language word.

                        > gr aiks etc "goat"

                        Even strengthened by the vacillation *(H)ayg^-/*(H)ag^-, cf. Skt.
                        ajá:-, Lith. oz^y~s, probably even OCS koza. The palatal is
                        supported by Armenian ayc.

                        > lat. caper "goat"

                        Again *-ro- not forming adjectives. Looks foreign.

                        > MHG hatele etc "goat"
                        > lat. haedus etc "goat"

                        Very impressive. I understand the Semitic form is *gadj-. Can't
                        check here right now.

                        > *ghans- "goose"

                        Skt. ham.sá- ensures PIE age. But that could be a borrowing already.

                        > *anat-/*natja "duck"
                        >
                        > Of these, the duck word shows the aCC-/CaC- alternation
                        > charateristic
                        > of the words from Schriijver's language of bird names.

                        It works fine as *án&2t-iH2/*n.H2t-yáH2-, but the vocalism is
                        remarkable: initial plain /a-/. Looks like a borrowed word in PIE
                        already.

                        >
                        > Many of them belong to a group of words that have /a/ in both
                        Latin
                        > and Germanic: ad/at, aqua/ahwa, arcus/earh etc. Among them is
                        > Latin annum, Gothic athn- "year", to which I'll compare Basque
                        > adin "age". This is obviously not a Basque loan from Latin.
                        >
                        > Further, a lot of water words: aqua, lacus, stagnum, na:vis,
                        > na:re/nata:re, vadum, mare. + Greek: *sandaz, *o:fero, OE
                        > no:sa "peninsula" vs gr. ne:sos (For some reason, all these occur
                        on
                        > my list of possible Austronesian cognates).

                        'Peninsula' could be derived from 'nose', but that is strange too.

                        Ufer looks old, Gmc. *o:fera-, Gk. é:peiros pointing to *á:per-o-/*-
                        yo-. Derived from *ap- 'water' or from *apo 'off'? Or are both
                        related?

                        Celtic -o- in OIr. loch, muir is strange.

                        MHG sampt 'sand' points to accent doublets: PGmc. *samft/*sand- from
                        *sámHt-/*samHt-´ (regular Verner-sensitive treatment of mt in
                        Germanic).

                        stagnum could have regular schwa secundum: /stgno-/ would be
                        regularly realized as [st'gno-] with a rudimentary vowel.

                        na:vis is well-supported by other IE languages; so is na:re, Ved.
                        sná:ti 'wash'.

                        > And further, Kuhn points out that in the system of Old European
                        > hydronyms, /a/ is very frequent, especially initially. Obviously,
                        > the last invading wave of IE-speakers must have arrived after
                        > pre-PIE /a/ was finished getting ablauted, leaving a vacant
                        > place in the vowel system.


                        This is a very interesting and most impressive list, certainly
                        showing something we have to take seriously.

                        I do not understand the last sentence of yours, about /a/
                        being "finished getting ablauted". I agree if it just means that the
                        foreign /a/ added a new vowel to the language at a time when any
                        earlier /a/ had already been changed to /e/ (or its prestage) in pre-
                        PIE. Your wording sounds cryptic to me; could you to specify what
                        you really mean?

                        Jens
                      • mkapovic@ffzg.hr
                        ... Lat. far and faba are not very conviencing in proving an IE *a since in Latin a/o difference is not very stabile after labials, that is *o tends to change
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 6, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...>
                          > wrote:
                          >>
                          >> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "elmeras2000" <jer@c...> wrote:
                          >> >
                          >> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...>
                          >> wrote:

                          >> *bhars-/*bharis (lat. far "Spelz", germ.
                          >> *bariz "Gerste", gk phe:ron "Nahrung" < *bharsom),
                          >
                          > Impressive with its stable /a/.
                          >> Lat. fa:ba "Bohne"
                          >
                          > Recte faba. Collective corresponding to Sl. bobU. Strange
                          > relationship to Gk. phákos, Alb. bathë, even stranger to Germ.
                          > *bauno: .

                          Lat. far and faba are not very conviencing in proving an IE *a since in
                          Latin a/o difference is not very stabile after labials, that is *o tends
                          to change to /a/ (mare, ca:seus, canis, parie:s, margo: etc.), cf.
                          Schrijver 1991.

                          Mate
                        • tgpedersen
                          ... Sory for the smartalecky wording. What I meant is this: According to Møller and Cuny, the ablaut vowel was /a/ in pre-PIE (and of course e/o/zero in PIE).
                          Message 12 of 27 , Apr 6, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            > I do not understand the last sentence of yours, about /a/
                            > being "finished getting ablauted". I agree if it just means that the
                            > foreign /a/ added a new vowel to the language at a time when any
                            > earlier /a/ had already been changed to /e/ (or its prestage) in pre-
                            > PIE. Your wording sounds cryptic to me; could you to specify what
                            > you really mean?
                            >

                            Sory for the smartalecky wording. What I meant is this: According to
                            Møller and Cuny, the ablaut vowel was /a/ in pre-PIE (and of course
                            e/o/zero in PIE). Therefore loans with /a/ (into a three-vowel system
                            i/u/a ?) into pre-PIE would appear in the daughter languaes as having
                            ablaut (since their /a/ would be subject to the laws which produced
                            the ablaut alternations), while those borrowed later (into a five-
                            vowel system i/e/(vacant)a/u/o ?) would appear to have stable /a/.


                            Torsten
                          • Miguel Carrasquer
                            On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:19:37 +0000, elmeras2000 ... Well, Hitt. also speaks against *g^. I read in Melchert that Oettinger sees not as
                            Message 13 of 27 , Apr 6, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:19:37 +0000, elmeras2000
                              <jer@...> wrote:

                              >*ag- "treiben"
                              >
                              >Generally posited as *H2eg^-, laryngeal proved by Ved. í:jate from
                              >*Hí-Hg^-e-tor, but laryngeal colour unsupported; note Hitt. akkalan
                              >(acc., ntr.?) 'furrow' which speaks against *H2-. Root really *H1ag^-
                              >?

                              Well, Hitt. <akkalan> also speaks against *g^.

                              I read in Melchert that Oettinger sees <akkalan> not as
                              "furrow" as a kind of plow. A connection with *ok^-,
                              *o:k^-, *ak^- "sharp" seems likely (cf. *ok^eta: "Egge", and
                              the words with -l- formants listed in IEW).


                              =======================
                              Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
                              mcv@...
                            • elmeras2000
                              ... from ... akkalan ... *H1ag^- ... I do not find any examples showing a difference between *-gl- and *- kl-, let alone *-g-tl- and *-k-tl-. I am aware that
                              Message 14 of 27 , Apr 6, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@w...> wrote:
                                > On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:19:37 +0000, elmeras2000
                                > <jer@c...> wrote:
                                >
                                > >*ag- "treiben"
                                > >
                                > >Generally posited as *H2eg^-, laryngeal proved by Ved. í:jate
                                from
                                > >*Hí-Hg^-e-tor, but laryngeal colour unsupported; note Hitt.
                                akkalan
                                > >(acc., ntr.?) 'furrow' which speaks against *H2-. Root really
                                *H1ag^-
                                > >?
                                >
                                > Well, Hitt. <akkalan> also speaks against *g^.
                                >
                                > I read in Melchert that Oettinger sees <akkalan> not as
                                > "furrow" as a kind of plow. A connection with *ok^-,
                                > *o:k^-, *ak^- "sharp" seems likely (cf. *ok^eta: "Egge", and
                                > the words with -l- formants listed in IEW).

                                I do not find any examples showing a difference between *-gl- and *-
                                kl-, let alone *-g-tl- and *-k-tl-. I am aware that this only
                                weakens the probative value if the etymological suggestion.

                                Jens
                              • Piotr Gasiorowski
                                ... There are quite a few puzzling lexical correspondences connecting Slavic with Italic -- things like Lat. secu:ris, Slavic sekyra axe , or Lat. lu:na,
                                Message 15 of 27 , Apr 7, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  elmeras2000 wrote:

                                  > Recte faba. Collective corresponding to Sl. bobU.

                                  There are quite a few puzzling lexical correspondences connecting Slavic
                                  with Italic -- things like Lat. secu:ris, Slavic sekyra 'axe', or Lat.
                                  lu:na, Slavic *luna < *louksnah2 (with reference to the moon). They
                                  might point to prehistoric contacts somewhere in Central Europe.
                                  *bHabHo-/*bHabHah2 looks like one of those.

                                  > Strange
                                  > relationship to Gk. phákos, Alb. bathë, even stranger to Germ.
                                  > *bauno: .

                                  *bauno: could easily result from early dissimilatory lenition of a
                                  bilabial fricative in *BaBna: < *bHabH-nah2, making the relationship
                                  less strange (though leaving the *n unexplained). The "Balkan" variant
                                  *bHak^o-/*bHak^ah2 remains fully strange, of course.

                                  Piotr
                                • tgpedersen
                                  ... Slavic ... Lat. ... They ... relationship ... variant ... -bÓnÒ castor-oil bean, plant from http://www.cbold.ddl.ish-lyon.cnrs.fr/Docs/Guthrie.html
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Apr 7, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@i...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > elmeras2000 wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Recte faba. Collective corresponding to Sl. bobU.
                                    >
                                    > There are quite a few puzzling lexical correspondences connecting
                                    Slavic
                                    > with Italic -- things like Lat. secu:ris, Slavic sekyra 'axe', or
                                    Lat.
                                    > lu:na, Slavic *luna < *louksnah2 (with reference to the moon).
                                    They
                                    > might point to prehistoric contacts somewhere in Central Europe.
                                    > *bHabHo-/*bHabHah2 looks like one of those.
                                    >
                                    > > Strange
                                    > > relationship to Gk. phákos, Alb. bathë, even stranger to Germ.
                                    > > *bauno: .
                                    >
                                    > *bauno: could easily result from early dissimilatory lenition of a
                                    > bilabial fricative in *BaBna: < *bHabH-nah2, making the
                                    relationship
                                    > less strange (though leaving the *n unexplained). The "Balkan"
                                    variant
                                    > *bHak^o-/*bHak^ah2 remains fully strange, of course.
                                    >


                                    -bÓnÒ castor-oil bean, plant


                                    from
                                    http://www.cbold.ddl.ish-lyon.cnrs.fr/Docs/Guthrie.html

                                    believe it or not.


                                    Torsten
                                  • tgpedersen
                                    ... ... language ... Has Semitic connections. ... would ... Might also be part of loan complex with Lat. co:s whetstone , cudo strike ,
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Apr 7, 2005
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "elmeras2000" <jer@c...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "elmeras2000" <jer@c...> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen"
                                      <tgpedersen@h...>
                                      > > wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Kuhn points out that the latest-acquired domesticated plants
                                      > and
                                      > > > > animals seem to have root /a/. That would speak for all such
                                      > > words
                                      > > > > being loans.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Could you give a little list - and a specific reference? That
                                      > > could
                                      > > be
                                      > > > very helpful. Any possible connection with Schrijver's
                                      language
                                      > of
                                      > > > bird names?
                                      > > >
                                      >
                                      > > *bhars-/*bharis (lat. far "Spelz", germ.
                                      > > *bariz "Gerste", gk phe:ron "Nahrung" < *bharsom),
                                      >
                                      > Impressive with its stable /a/.
                                      >

                                      Has Semitic connections.


                                      > > gr. ákhne: germ.
                                      > > *ah(a)no:/*ag(a)no: "Spreu" lat. agna "Ähre", lat. acus "Spreu",
                                      > > germ.*ahs-/**ahis- "Ähre",
                                      >
                                      > This looks indigenous IE: *H2ek^- 'prick, be sharp', *H2(e)k^-ro-
                                      > 'sharp'. s-stem normal in IE adjectival nouns, *H2ák^-os/es-
                                      would
                                      > be 'sharpness'.

                                      Might also be part of loan complex with Lat. co:s "whetstone",
                                      cudo "strike", which looks like a language-of-bird-names type
                                      alternation.

                                      > Ufer looks old, Gmc. *o:fera-, Gk. é:peiros pointing to *á:per-o-
                                      /*-
                                      > yo-. Derived from *ap- 'water' or from *apo 'off'? Or are both
                                      > related?

                                      On that subject, Hittite eku-/aku- "drink" and appa "away" vs. h_ap-
                                      "water" is a problem with respect to the initial laryngeal. But
                                      then, the words might have been borrowed and reborrowed with and
                                      without the laryngeal.


                                      Torsten
                                    • tgpedersen
                                      ... make ... And BTW, German schwinden be reduced, run low might suddenly also turn out to be semantically relevant and therefore related. Torsten
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Apr 15, 2005
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > Yes, I must accept /a/ as a PIE phoneme, since it sometimes occurs
                                        > > in environments where it would cause even greater embarrassment to
                                        > > posit /H2e/ or /eH2/. Some examples are *yag^- 'sacrifice', *sal-
                                        > > 'salt', *na:s- 'nose', but there are not many.
                                        >
                                        > I was wondering if there might be a way to connect sun, *sh2-wel-,
                                        > with salt, *sh2el-? (also sea, salt water). Semantically it would
                                        make
                                        > sense, since the way you got salt was by letting sea water evaporate
                                        > in the sun in dammed-in fields (note also the various Germanic verbs
                                        > in sw-, German schwelen "smolder", sweat (*swed-), seethe (*seud-)).


                                        And BTW, German 'schwinden' "be reduced, run low" might suddenly also
                                        turn out to be semantically relevant and therefore related.


                                        Torsten
                                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.