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spanish perro

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  • William H.
    i think this was addressed before, but i will bring it up again. i am curious to know where the spanish word perro originated. it appears not to have arrived
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 19 7:14 PM
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      i think this was addressed before, but i will bring it up again. i
      am curious to know where the spanish word perro originated. it
      appears not to have arrived from latin "caninus" or
      nahuatl "chichi". could it be from a prehispanic language of the
      iberian peninsula such a lusitanian, aquitanian, or iberian?
    • Miguel Carrasquer
      On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 03:14:33 +0000, William H. ... Certainly not from the last two, which didn t have p-. The word probaaly comes from prrr , or brrr , the
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 20 2:36 AM
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        On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 03:14:33 +0000, "William H."
        <hittite1221@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        >i think this was addressed before, but i will bring it up again. i
        >am curious to know where the spanish word perro originated. it
        >appears not to have arrived from latin "caninus" or
        >nahuatl "chichi". could it be from a prehispanic language of the
        >iberian peninsula such a lusitanian, aquitanian, or iberian?

        Certainly not from the last two, which didn't have p-.

        The word probaaly comes from "prrr", or "brrr", the
        traditional command given to sheepdogs to assemble the
        flock. Cf. Catalan <gos> "dog", from a similar calling cry
        ("k(u)sss, "gusss"). The original words, Sp. <can>, Cat.
        <ca> were displaced by the neologisms, as in English <hound>
        vs. <dog>.

        =======================
        Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
        mcv@...
      • andrew_and_inge
        ... What is the etymology of dog?
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 21 7:55 AM
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          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@w...> wrote:
          > On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 03:14:33 +0000, "William H."
          > <hittite1221@y...> wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >
          > >i think this was addressed before, but i will bring it up again. i
          > >am curious to know where the spanish word perro originated. it
          > >appears not to have arrived from latin "caninus" or
          > >nahuatl "chichi". could it be from a prehispanic language of the
          > >iberian peninsula such a lusitanian, aquitanian, or iberian?
          >
          > Certainly not from the last two, which didn't have p-.
          >
          > The word probaaly comes from "prrr", or "brrr", the
          > traditional command given to sheepdogs to assemble the
          > flock. Cf. Catalan <gos> "dog", from a similar calling cry
          > ("k(u)sss, "gusss"). The original words, Sp. <can>, Cat.
          > <ca> were displaced by the neologisms, as in English <hound>
          > vs. <dog>.
          >

          What is the etymology of dog?
        • Miguel Carrasquer
          On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 15:55:00 +0000, andrew_and_inge ... OE docga, unknown etymology. I have suggested, but it may be a bit far-fetched, a Celtic *dago-cu:,
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 21 1:17 PM
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            On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 15:55:00 +0000, andrew_and_inge
            <100761.200@...> wrote:

            >What is the etymology of dog?

            OE docga, unknown etymology.

            I have suggested, but it may be a bit far-fetched, a Celtic
            *dago-cu:, -cunos "good dog" (cf. OIr. divine name Dagda <
            *dago-de:wos, Gaulish dagomota "good fuck(?)" in the Autun
            inscription).

            *dagocun- (> *daggun-) might then explain both English
            dogga(n) and Basque zakur "dog" < *daggur, or, if -r was
            originally /r/ not /rr/, < *daggun.

            =======================
            Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
            mcv@...
          • Piotr Gasiorowski
            ... If all goes well, my article on the etymology of , currently under peer review, will settle the problem :). Please have a little patience. The details
            Message 5 of 6 , Feb 22 12:39 AM
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              On 05-02-21 16:55, andrew_and_inge wrote:

              > What is the etymology of dog?

              If all goes well, my article on the etymology of <dog>, currently under
              peer review, will settle the problem :). Please have a little patience.
              The details will be available soon.

              Piotr
            • Gordon Barlow
              ... GB: Does anybody really know enough about the deduced spoken languages of the pre-IE cultures of Iberia tens of centuries ago, to know whether they could
              Message 6 of 6 , Feb 22 2:40 PM
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                > > i think this was addressed before, but i will bring it up again. i
                > >am curious to know where the spanish word perro originated. it
                > >appears not to have arrived from latin "caninus" or
                > >nahuatl "chichi". could it be from a prehispanic language of the
                > >iberian peninsula such a lusitanian, aquitanian, or iberian?
                >
                > Certainly not from the last two, which didn't have p-.

                GB: Does anybody really know enough about the deduced spoken languages of
                the pre-IE cultures of Iberia tens of centuries ago, to know whether they
                could or couldn't say their pees?
                I have an old book on language that makes a very basic observation. "As
                there is no
                break at any point between the rims of the teeth back to the uvula, nor from
                the tip of the tongue back to its root, ... all the articulations involving
                the tongue form a continuous organic and acoustic series." I am no
                anthropologist, but this seems a fairly unexceptional observation to me. It
                seems risky to presume any long-term boycott of any sound in any place.

                > The word probably comes from "prrr", or "brrr", the
                > traditional command given to sheepdogs to assemble the
                > flock. Cf. Catalan <gos> "dog", from a similar calling cry
                > ("k(u)sss, "gusss"). The original words, Sp. <can>, Cat.
                > <ca> were displaced by the neologisms, as in English <hound>
                > vs. <dog>.
                GB: I'd be interested to know how long it was or has been the tradition in
                any part of Iberia to say "prrr" or "brrr" as a command to sheepdogs to do
                anything. Are we sure we're not mixing it up with "grrr", the common
                sheepdog-command meaning, "Stay out of my life!"? From my own experience as
                a young lad on a sheep farm, I can say that we used to yell "way back!" I
                would not expect any English dialect-word for dog to reflect that usage,
                since (again in my personal experience only) dogs spend a surprising amount
                of their time in other pursuits than assembling flocks.

                Andrew/Inge: >>What is the etymology of dog?

                Miguel: >OE docga, unknown etymology.
                I have suggested, but it may be a bit far-fetched, a Celtic
                *dago-cu:, -cunos "good dog" (cf. OIr. divine name Dagda <
                *dago-de:wos, Gaulish dagomota "good fuck(?)" in the Autun
                inscription).
                *dagocun- (> *daggun-) might then explain both English
                dogga(n) and Basque zakur "dog" < *daggur, or, if -r was
                originally /r/ not /rr/, < *daggun.

                GB: A few months ago I spent a few idle hours looking for a pattern for the
                names of animals in English (and, with the help of a dictionary, one or two
                other IE-derived languages). Very difficult. Allowing for the
                interchangeability of vowels in all languages, Latin lepis=hare and
                lupus=wolf would have driven me crazy even if wolf/vulpine=fox hadn't done
                the job already. Didn't our ancestors know the difference between a wolf
                and a fox and a hare? (A wolf goes 'woof': easy enough to remember, you'd
                think...) The conclusion I came to - very tentatively - was that animals'
                names in any one community must have been replaced by the names used by the
                latest occupying foreigners. If I had grown up in some slave village of
                ancient Greece calling a horse a hippo, and fashion changed (forcibly or
                not) the name of the beast to "caba(ll...)", then I would have gone along
                with that without too much of a grumble. Who am I to grumble? If my latest
                conquerors call the damn thing a mare or a colt or whatever, we slaves know
                better than to be stubborn about it.

                Today we identify "cattle" as a bunch of cows, but there were times when
                "cattle" referred to deer. (Maybe 'cat' - and 'rat' - once meant just
                "small animal", just as 'kid' does today - though maybe such speculation
                takes us outside the terms of reference of this IE-related List. Piotr?).
                If we can imagine ourselves in the shoes (if only!) of an often-conquered
                community, we can perhaps imagine the context in which the names of things
                might have changed. The closest English word to "perro" may be 'farrow',
                which is a young pig, or used to be. Is it the same word? Is 'pig' the
                same word as 'dog'? A p-d transition is no more or less uncommon than a p-f
                one, in our IE family. Could "burro" have been an earlier generic name for
                a small domestic animal? Is 'hind' the same word as 'hound', in its
                origins? I don't say it is or it isn't. In my ignorance I don't have
                enough knowledge of all the options to rule on the probabilities. Other
                Listers, less ignorant, will I hope offer their own thoughts on this general
                topic.


                Gordon Barlow
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