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Re: [tied] English /p/ in "up" and "open"

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  • tgpedersen
    ... should ... shift, ... now ... úpa). ... The alternative explanation is that it is a Nordwestblock loan, with unchanged /p/. I think it s striking how a
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 1, 2005
      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@w...> wrote:
      > On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:43:05 +0100, Rasmus Underbjerg
      > Pinnerup <pinnerup@p...> wrote:
      >
      > >The issue is the /p/ in the English word "up" (and in "open") - it
      > >allegedly goes back to PIE *upo-, but by way of Grimm's Law it
      should
      > >have become /f/ - and I can't seem to find any answer to why it
      > >hasn't.
      >
      > >The /p/ appears in most other Germanic languages as well (with the
      > >exception of those who have gone through the high German sound
      shift,
      > >who have /f/). Old Norse has /upp/, Gothic /iup/. Old English also
      now
      > >and then displays two p's. Could it have been a PIE geminate? Are
      > >there such things - and are they exempt from Grimm's Law?
      >
      > The PIE form was either *upó (Greek upó) or *úpo (Skt.
      úpa).
      > The first would have given Germanic *ub, the second Germanic
      > *uf, and both seem to be present: OHG oba > G. ob; ON uf, OE
      > ufe-. The forms with /p/ may be explained as coming from
      > *ub in the Auslaut, but that doesn't explain the geminate in
      > OS/OE upp(a/e), ON upp. A geminate in this position
      > suggests a PIE form like *upnó (or *ubnó, or *ubhnó, it
      > doesn't make a difference), which should give Germanic *upp,
      > at least according to... I think it's Bugge's law, but I'm
      > not sure I'm remembering the name correctly.
      >

      The alternative explanation is that it is a Nordwestblock loan, with
      unchanged /p/. I think it's striking how a number of
      preverbs/prepositions are similar to the the "water" word *ap-/*up-
      (with its odd non-IE 'ablaut', making one think of Kuhn's 'other Old
      European', also called the ar-/ur- language). 'ob', the 'proper
      Germanic' cognate, survives in German in placenames referring to
      rivers, eg. 'Rothenburg ob der Tauber'. Similarly, I think
      'ap-'/'up-' etc entered the language as directional adverbs referring
      to 'the river' (ie. the neighbourhood river): 'up river', 'down
      river' (cf. German 'flussauf', 'flussab'), but in absolute, not
      relative terms; 'up/down _our_ river' etc. Note that it seems to have
      been inflected for case (in the donor language?): 'apo' vs Gr. 'epi'
      (with 'umlaut'?). Cf. the corresonding constructions in Finnish and
      Basque: 'under' + NP is constructed as NP + the appropriate case form
      (allative, locative) of 'bottom'.

      The other 'water preverb/pre-/postposition' is *w-d-,


      Torsten
    • Miguel Carrasquer
      On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 01:03:36 +0100, Miguel Carrasquer ... Kluge s law. I knew I was having a black-out. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 1, 2005
        On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 01:03:36 +0100, Miguel Carrasquer
        <mcv@...> wrote:

        >The forms with /p/ may be explained as coming from
        >*ub in the Auslaut, but that doesn't explain the geminate in
        >OS/OE upp(a/e), ON upp. A geminate in this position
        >suggests a PIE form like *upnó (or *ubnó, or *ubhnó, it
        >doesn't make a difference), which should give Germanic *upp,
        >at least according to...

        Kluge's law. I knew I was having a black-out.


        =======================
        Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
        mcv@...
      • tgpedersen
        ... it ... Both ab / (s)ub and *ud- take suffix -s (in Latin and Germanic). And the third in that company is *(a/u)per- across (from *ap-/*up- ). Torsten
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 11, 2005
          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@w...> wrote:
          > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:43:05 +0100, Rasmus Underbjerg
          > > Pinnerup <pinnerup@p...> wrote:
          > >
          > > >The issue is the /p/ in the English word "up" (and in "open") -
          it
          > > >allegedly goes back to PIE *upo-, but by way of Grimm's Law it
          > should
          > > >have become /f/ - and I can't seem to find any answer to why it
          > > >hasn't.
          > >

          >
          > The other 'water preverb/pre-/postposition' is *w-d-,

          Both 'ab'/'(s)ub' and *ud- take suffix -s (in Latin and Germanic).

          And the third in that company is *(a/u)per- "across" (from *ap-/*up-
          ).


          Torsten
        • Rob
          ... They do? Where? ... Do you think there is a suffix *-er there? - Rob
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 11, 2005
            --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...>
            wrote:

            > Both 'ab'/'(s)ub' and *ud- take suffix -s (in Latin and Germanic).

            They do? Where?

            > And the third in that company is *(a/u)per- "across" (from *ap-
            > /*up-).

            Do you think there is a suffix *-er there?

            - Rob
          • Patrick Ryan
            ... From: Rob To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 10:28 AM Subject: Re:
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 11, 2005
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Rob
              Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 10:28 AM
              Subject: Re: [tied] English /p/ in "up" and "open"



              --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...>
              wrote:

              > Both 'ab'/'(s)ub' and *ud- take suffix -s (in Latin and Germanic).

              They do?  Where?

              > And the third in that company is *(a/u)per- "across" (from *ap-
              > /*up-).

              Do you think there is a suffix *-er there?

              - Rob


              In my opinion, *(a/u)per- is almost certainly derived from Pokorny's 2. A & B*per-.

              Patrick
               
               

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            • tgpedersen
              ... Latin preverbs abs-, s-us-, Germanic *uds- ur. ... Yup. up/over. http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/Op.html
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 12, 2005
                --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <magwich78@y...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...>
                > wrote:
                >
                > > Both 'ab'/'(s)ub' and *ud- take suffix -s (in Latin and Germanic).
                >
                > They do? Where?
                Latin preverbs abs-, s-us-, Germanic *uds- > ur.
                >
                > > And the third in that company is *(a/u)per- "across" (from *ap-
                > > /*up-).
                >
                > Do you think there is a suffix *-er there?
                >

                Yup. up/over.

                http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/Op.html
                http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/Opr.html

                Torsten
              • tgpedersen
                ... Pokorny s 2. A & B*per-. ... And in my opinion, Pokorny s 2. A & B*per- is almost certainly derived from *(a/u)per-. Torsten
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 12, 2005
                  >
                  >
                  > In my opinion, *(a/u)per- is almost certainly derived from
                  Pokorny's 2. A & B*per-.
                  >
                  >
                  > Patrick
                  >

                  And in my opinion, Pokorny's 2. A & B*per- is almost certainly
                  derived from *(a/u)per-.

                  Torsten
                • Patrick Ryan
                  ... From: tgpedersen To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 4:26 AM
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 12, 2005
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 4:26 AM
                    Subject: Re: [tied] English /p/ in "up" and "open"



                    >
                    >
                    >   In my opinion, *(a/u)per- is almost certainly derived from
                    Pokorny's 2. A & B*per-.
                    >
                    >
                    >   Patrick
                    >

                    And in my opinion, Pokorny's 2. A & B*per- is almost certainly
                    derived from  *(a/u)per-.
                     
                    Torsten
                     

                    So we have a CVCVC root?
                     
                    Get real.
                     
                     
                    Patrick




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                  • tgpedersen
                    ... CVC-VC. Get glasses. Torsten
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 14, 2005
                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-
                      language@m...> wrote:
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: tgpedersen<mailto:tgpedersen@h...>
                      > To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 4:26 AM
                      > Subject: Re: [tied] English /p/ in "up" and "open"
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > In my opinion, *(a/u)per- is almost certainly derived from
                      > Pokorny's 2. A & B*per-.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Patrick
                      > >
                      >
                      > And in my opinion, Pokorny's 2. A & B*per- is almost certainly
                      > derived from *(a/u)per-.
                      >
                      > Torsten
                      >
                      >
                      > So we have a CVCVC root?
                      >
                      > Get real.
                      >

                      CVC-VC.

                      Get glasses.

                      Torsten
                    • Patrick Ryan
                      ... From: tgpedersen To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 3:29 AM
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 14, 2005
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 3:29 AM
                        Subject: Re: [tied] English /p/ in "up" and "open"



                        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-
                        language@m...> wrote:
                        >
                        >   ----- Original Message -----
                        >   From: tgpedersen<mailto:tgpedersen@h...>
                        >   To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
                        >   Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 4:26 AM
                        >   Subject: Re: [tied] English /p/ in "up" and "open"
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >   >
                        >   >
                        >   >   In my opinion, *(a/u)per- is almost certainly derived from
                        >   Pokorny's 2. A & B*per-.
                        >   >
                        >   >
                        >   >   Patrick
                        >   >
                        >
                        >   And in my opinion, Pokorny's 2. A & B*per- is almost certainly
                        >   derived from  *(a/u)per-.
                        >   
                        >   Torsten
                        >   
                        >
                        >   So we have a CVCVC root?
                        >
                        >   Get real.
                        >

                        CVC-VC.

                        Get glasses.

                        Torsten

                        There is no such thing as a CVCVC root nor a yet CVC-VC root. Some few roots are CV (e.g. *me) but most (really all) others are CVC.
                         
                        I already have glasses.
                         
                        Perhaps you should consider obtaining a thinking cap?
                         
                         
                        Patrick




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                      • tgpedersen
                        ... Some few roots are CV (e.g. *me) but most (really all) others are CVC. ... CVC-VC means a root (CVC) with a suffix (-VC) cf PIE *up-er Proto-Celtic
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 14, 2005
                          > There is no such thing as a CVCVC root nor a yet CVC-VC root.
                          Some few roots are CV (e.g. *me) but most (really all) others are
                          CVC.
                          >
                          > I already have glasses.
                          >
                          > Perhaps you should consider obtaining a thinking cap?
                          >
                          >

                          CVC-VC means
                          a root (CVC)
                          with a suffix (-VC)

                          cf PIE *up-er > Proto-Celtic *wer-.

                          Torsten
                        • Patrick Ryan
                          ... From: tgpedersen To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 9:30 AM
                          Message 12 of 23 , Feb 14, 2005
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 9:30 AM
                            Subject: Re: [tied] English /p/ in "up" and "open"



                            >   There is no such thing as a CVCVC root nor a yet CVC-VC root.
                            Some few roots are CV (e.g. *me) but most (really all) others are
                            CVC.
                            >
                            >   I already have glasses.
                            >
                            >   Perhaps you should consider obtaining a thinking cap?
                            >
                            >

                            CVC-VC means
                            a root (CVC)
                            with a suffix (-VC)

                            cf PIE *up-er > Proto-Celtic *wer-.

                            Torsten

                            Did you not assert that *per- was derived from *(a/u)per-?
                             
                             
                            Patrick




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                          • tgpedersen
                            ... Make it VC-VC then. Torsten
                            Message 13 of 23 , Feb 15, 2005
                              >
                              >
                              > > There is no such thing as a CVCVC root nor a yet CVC-VC root.
                              > Some few roots are CV (e.g. *me) but most (really all) others are
                              > CVC.
                              > >
                              > > I already have glasses.
                              > >
                              > > Perhaps you should consider obtaining a thinking cap?
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > CVC-VC means
                              > a root (CVC)
                              > with a suffix (-VC)
                              >
                              > cf PIE *up-er > Proto-Celtic *wer-.
                              >
                              > Torsten
                              >
                              > Did you not assert that *per- was derived from *(a/u)per-?
                              >

                              Make it VC-VC then.


                              Torsten
                            • tgpedersen
                              ... Actually I think *h2ap- or *ap- is a loan, not an IE root. Kuhn lists the following names of rivers (and assorted lakes and mountains: Durius (Duero) Spain
                              Message 14 of 23 , Feb 17, 2005
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > > CVC-VC means
                                > > a root (CVC)
                                > > with a suffix (-VC)
                                > >
                                > > cf PIE *up-er > Proto-Celtic *wer-.
                                > >
                                > > Torsten
                                > >
                                > > Did you not assert that *per- was derived from *(a/u)per-?
                                > >
                                >
                                > Make it VC-VC then.


                                Actually I think *h2ap- or *ap- is a loan, not an IE root.


                                Kuhn lists the following names of rivers (and assorted lakes and
                                mountains:
                                Durius (Duero) Spain
                                Duranius (Dordogne) S. Fr.
                                Duri (2x) N. Iral.

                                Upper Po valley:
                                Stura (several), Nure, Curone, Taro, Ira, Stirone, Lacus Larius (Lake
                                Como), Maria (Mera), Lura, Monte Duria

                                Lower Po valley: nothing

                                Rhone valley: nothing
                                Mountains to the west of it: many examples of -ur-, -ar-, -ir-

                                Mountains of Switzerland, around Aare
                                Dura (Thur) (-> Rhine)
                                Suhre (-> Aare)
                                Jura Mountains
                                with suffix:
                                Orbe, Surb (-> Aare), Urnäsch (-> Sitter -> Thur), Uerke, Murten
                                (town), Murtensee, Sorne (-> Birs -> Rhine), Sarine, Sarnen (town),
                                Sarnersee, ri (town), Urnersee, 5 x Murg.

                                with -k- suffix, especially many in the Nertherlands, in an area
                                delimited by
                                w: Ourcq (-> Marne)
                                e: Orke (-> Eder -> Weser)
                                s: Ource (-> Seine)
                                n: Urk (island)
                                many names of the type
                                Urk-, Burk-, Kurk-, Lurk-
                                Ark-, Bark-, Kark-, Sark-, Mark-, Wark-

                                in the mountains to the right of the Rhine
                                Or-pe/Urf, Dor-pe, Sor-pe, Lor-fe,
                                Ar-pe, Mar-pe, Sar-pe.

                                in Lithuania:
                                Durupis, Nurupis, Surupis, Urkupis.


                                Kuhn: the areas of the ur-/ar-/(ir-) names are relic ares.

                                He identifies the -pe/-fe suffix (and Lituanian -up-?) as PIE *ap-
                                "water" and thinks therefore these composites with the non-IE ar-/ur-
                                placename roots as late. But the suffix is ap-/up- and is therefore
                                itself an non-IE ar-/ur- word-


                                I think *ap-/*up- is the origin of the preverbs/pre/postpositions *ab
                                and *up. Since it means also "river", *ab/*up was loaned as a noun
                                and perhaps in a single or two cases (locative, allative?). So what
                                we see in Or-pe etc is perhaps "on" or "up the Or- river", depending
                                on whatever old case used to be discernible in the now eroded -pe.

                                In a language with cases, the number of "semantic cases" can be
                                extended by using a noun indicating position, in a positional or
                                directional case, as a post/preposition of a noun which is then in
                                the genitive or some other suitable case, eg. Finnish 'Porin ja Turun
                                välillä' "between Pori and Turku" (-n genitive, välilleä
                                adessive "on the middleroad", thus "on the middleroad of Pori and
                                Turku"; 'keskellä järveä' "in the middle of the lake", keski-
                                "middle" in the adessive, järveä inessive of järve "lake).
                                But one might also see keskellä as an adverb "centrally"
                                and järveä as "on the lake".


                                *ab/*up in suitable case also behaves like an adverb (one
                                might want to compare it to a similar "international"
                                system of directional adverbs, that of 'starboard'
                                (Danish styrbord) and 'port' (German Backbord, Danish
                                bagbord, French babord)).


                                This means that -r of all the non-IE ur-/ar- place names may
                                be a genitive or locative marker (if I can explain away the
                                -k- of Lithuanian Urkupis). IE does have a relic -r locative
                                in pronouns (here, there, where, Lat. cur).

                                Cf.
                                German dar-auf "thereon"
                                Dutch daar-op "thereon"
                                rivername Or-pe "on the U river(?)" etc

                                which means going back to the strange fact that the Germanic
                                languages use this old locative(?) with 'floating' (Dutch) or
                                postposed prepositions, for which there is no logical
                                explanation.

                                Especially Dutch is nuts about this preference for locatives with
                                prepositions.
                                Not only
                                er-voor
                                hier-voor
                                daar-voor
                                waar-voor
                                as in the other Germanic languages, but also
                                ergens voor lit. "somewhere for" ie. "for something"
                                nergens voor lit. "nowhere for" ie. "for nothing"
                                overal voor lit. "everywhere for" ie. "for everything"


                                Perhaps -r is the mark of a genitive/locative used as the subject
                                marker in stative sentences in an active/stative language?

                                "water" has at least four forms in IE:
                                *w-d- : Greek hudro-, water
                                *w-g- : Greek hugro-
                                *w-s-
                                *w-r- : Latin u:ri:na (Varro: u:rina:ri est merger in aquam), urium
                                (Pliny: vitium lavandi est, si fluens amnis lutum importet, id genus
                                terrae urium vocant, Iberian?, cf river Urium in Sp.), urceus "pot",
                                urna, Greek oureo: "I urinate", Skt. vá:r, vá:ri, Tokh A wa:r,
                                OPr wurs "pond", ON úr "drizzle". Cf. Basque ur "water", irura
                                "vega, valle". Cf the town Aurbach <- Ur-augia; the latter is then
                                PIE *akW- "water", which, being a variant of *ap-, also must be a
                                loan from the ur-/ar- language.

                                One is tempted to consider Latin 'urbs' which has had a whole
                                supposed substratum language in Latin named after it: Urbian, as
                                related to the ur-/ar- language.


                                Torsten
                              • tgpedersen
                                ... Kuhn mentions that the river Dur (Ireland) and Nar (Italy, - Tiber) have endingless nominatives. As do Latin nouns in -er. Torsten
                                Message 15 of 23 , Feb 17, 2005
                                  > Perhaps -r is the mark of a genitive/locative used as the subject
                                  > marker in stative sentences in an active/stative language?

                                  Kuhn mentions that the river Dur (Ireland) and Nar (Italy, -> Tiber)
                                  have endingless nominatives. As do Latin nouns in -er.

                                  Torsten
                                • Peter P
                                  ... välillä - at the in between (place) (of Pori and of Turku). ... Actually, keskellä järveä at the middle part of the lake. Järveä is in the
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Feb 17, 2005
                                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > In a language with cases, the number of "semantic cases" can be
                                    > extended by using a noun indicating position, in a positional or
                                    > directional case, as a post/preposition of a noun which is then in
                                    > the genitive or some other suitable case, eg. Finnish 'Porin ja Turun
                                    > välillä' "between Pori and Turku" (-n genitive, välilleä

                                    välillä - at the in between (place) (of Pori and of Turku).

                                    > adessive "on the middleroad", thus "on the middleroad of Pori and
                                    > Turku"; 'keskellä järveä' "in the middle of the lake", keski-
                                    > "middle" in the adessive, järveä inessive of järve "lake).

                                    Actually, 'keskellä järveä' at the middle part of the lake. 'Järveä'
                                    is in the partitive case and the nominative is 'järvi'

                                    > But one might also see keskellä as an adverb "centrally"
                                    > and järveä as "on the lake".

                                    Keskellä järveä (at the centre, part of the lake), 'keskellä' is an
                                    adverb in the adessive case and 'järveä' is a noun in the partitive
                                    case. You could just as easily say 'järven keskellä' (lake's, at the
                                    centre). 'Järven' is a noun in the genitive case and 'keskellä' is a
                                    postposition again in the adessive case.

                                    Welcome to Finnish cases.

                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Torsten

                                    Peter P
                                  • tgpedersen
                                    ... in ... Turun ... and ... lake. Järveä ... the ... is a ... Thanks for the correction. I was copying from Collinder s De uraliska språken and he
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Feb 18, 2005
                                      --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Peter P" <roskis@s...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...>
                                      wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > In a language with cases, the number of "semantic cases" can be
                                      > > extended by using a noun indicating position, in a positional or
                                      > > directional case, as a post/preposition of a noun which is then
                                      in
                                      > > the genitive or some other suitable case, eg. Finnish 'Porin ja
                                      Turun
                                      > > välillä' "between Pori and Turku" (-n genitive, välilleä
                                      >
                                      > välillä - at the in between (place) (of Pori and of Turku).
                                      >
                                      > > adessive "on the middleroad", thus "on the middleroad of Pori
                                      and
                                      > > Turku"; 'keskellä järveä' "in the middle of the lake", keski-
                                      > > "middle" in the adessive, järveä inessive of järve "lake).
                                      >
                                      > Actually, 'keskellä järveä' at the middle part of the
                                      lake. 'Järveä'
                                      > is in the partitive case and the nominative is 'järvi'
                                      >
                                      > > But one might also see keskellä as an adverb "centrally"
                                      > > and järveä as "on the lake".
                                      >
                                      > Keskellä järveä (at the centre, part of the lake), 'keskellä' is an
                                      > adverb in the adessive case and 'järveä' is a noun in the partitive
                                      > case. You could just as easily say 'järven keskellä' (lake's, at
                                      the
                                      > centre). 'Järven' is a noun in the genitive case and 'keskellä'
                                      is a
                                      > postposition again in the adessive case.
                                      >
                                      > Welcome to Finnish cases.
                                      >

                                      Thanks for the correction. I was copying from Collinder's 'De
                                      uraliska språken' and he left out the information of the case
                                      of 'järveä'. Next time I'll try Basque. It uses the same device to
                                      expand the number of semantic cases.


                                      Torsten
                                    • whetex_lewx
                                      I know that ura in Basque is water. ... be ... or ... then ... ja ... an ... partitive ... at
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Feb 18, 2005
                                        I know that "ura" in Basque is water.



                                        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Peter P" <roskis@s...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@h...>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > In a language with cases, the number of "semantic cases" can
                                        be
                                        > > > extended by using a noun indicating position, in a positional
                                        or
                                        > > > directional case, as a post/preposition of a noun which is
                                        then
                                        > in
                                        > > > the genitive or some other suitable case, eg. Finnish 'Porin
                                        ja
                                        > Turun
                                        > > > välillä' "between Pori and Turku" (-n genitive, välilleä
                                        > >
                                        > > välillä - at the in between (place) (of Pori and of Turku).
                                        > >
                                        > > > adessive "on the middleroad", thus "on the middleroad of Pori
                                        > and
                                        > > > Turku"; 'keskellä järveä' "in the middle of the lake", keski-
                                        > > > "middle" in the adessive, järveä inessive of järve "lake).
                                        > >
                                        > > Actually, 'keskellä järveä' at the middle part of the
                                        > lake. 'Järveä'
                                        > > is in the partitive case and the nominative is 'järvi'
                                        > >
                                        > > > But one might also see keskellä as an adverb "centrally"
                                        > > > and järveä as "on the lake".
                                        > >
                                        > > Keskellä järveä (at the centre, part of the lake), 'keskellä' is
                                        an
                                        > > adverb in the adessive case and 'järveä' is a noun in the
                                        partitive
                                        > > case. You could just as easily say 'järven keskellä' (lake's,
                                        at
                                        > the
                                        > > centre). 'Järven' is a noun in the genitive case and 'keskellä'
                                        > is a
                                        > > postposition again in the adessive case.
                                        > >
                                        > > Welcome to Finnish cases.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > Thanks for the correction. I was copying from Collinder's 'De
                                        > uraliska språken' and he left out the information of the case
                                        > of 'järveä'. Next time I'll try Basque. It uses the same device to
                                        > expand the number of semantic cases.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Torsten
                                      • tgpedersen
                                        ... Actually the water ; -a is the postponed definite article. Water is ur . BTW, Old High German has the variants ur-, ar-, ir- (er-) of the
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Feb 18, 2005
                                          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "whetex_lewx" <whetex_lewx@y...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I know that "ura" in Basque is water.
                                          >

                                          Actually "the water"; -a is the postponed definite article. Water
                                          is 'ur'.


                                          BTW, Old High German has the variants ur-, ar-, ir- (er-) of the
                                          preverb/preposition ur- < *uds-, ur- and ar- occuring in the same
                                          verbal noun and finite forms of the same verb (Grimm's Wörterbuch).
                                          Besides High German 'ab' and 'aber' (originally "again") and Low
                                          German 'up' -> auf, + über, Gothic has 'ip-dalja'. /u/,/a/,/i/
                                          again; very un-IE.


                                          Torsten
                                        • tgpedersen
                                          ... Latin u:ligo:, -inis humide naturelle de la terre u:meo: être humide u:veo: do. u:ve:sco: devenir humide u:vidus (u:dus) humide Arm. oyc frais ,
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Feb 19, 2005
                                            >
                                            > This means that -r of all the non-IE ur-/ar- place names may
                                            > be a genitive or locative marker (if I can explain away the
                                            > -k- of Lithuanian Urkupis). IE does have a relic -r locative
                                            > in pronouns (here, there, where, Lat. cur).
                                            >
                                            > Perhaps -r is the mark of a genitive/locative used as the subject
                                            > marker in stative sentences in an active/stative language?
                                            >
                                            > "water" has at least four forms in IE:
                                            > *w-d- : Greek hudro-, water
                                            > *w-g- : Greek hugro-
                                            Latin
                                            u:ligo:, -inis "humide naturelle de la terre"
                                            u:meo: "être humide"
                                            u:veo: do.
                                            u:ve:sco: "devenir humide"
                                            u:vidus (u:dus) "humide"
                                            Arm. oyc "frais", ON vo,kr "humide"
                                            according to Meillet < *ug-sm-, *oug-sm- and- *e/oug-w-, aucune
                                            histoire précise
                                            It seems *w-gW- would fit better
                                            > *w-s-
                                            > *w-r- : Latin u:ri:na (Varro: u:rina:ri est merger in aquam),
                                            urium
                                            > (Pliny: vitium lavandi est, si fluens amnis lutum importet, id
                                            genus
                                            > terrae urium vocant, Iberian?, cf river Urium in Sp.),
                                            urceus "pot",
                                            > urna, Greek oureo: "I urinate", Skt. vá:r, vá:ri, Tokh A wa:r,
                                            > OPr wurs "pond", ON úr "drizzle". Cf. Basque ur "water", irura
                                            > "vega, valle". Cf the town Aurbach <- Ur-augia; the latter is then
                                            > PIE *akW- "water", which, being a variant of *ap-, also must be a
                                            > loan from the ur-/ar- language.
                                            >

                                            It turns out Basque 'ur' "water" has a combining form 'u-'. That
                                            looks promising for '-r' being an old case ending (on the other
                                            hand, -r- is often used in Basque as a linking vowel between vowels,
                                            and ur- exists also as a combining form). It combines
                                            with 'alde', 'halde' (< *kalde) "side" to Ubalde
                                            (name), 'ugalde', 'uhalde' "stream".

                                            Cf. 'ibai' "river", 'bide' "road", 'ibide' "ford", 'ubide' "ford"

                                            Perhaps we should assume *u-GW- for *w-g-? That makes it tempting to
                                            suggest that *akwa (> *aGWa) is related to all the *w-C (**GW-
                                            C?) "water" words. It would make *akWa/*w-C- similar to the words of
                                            Scrijver's language of bird names (Gaul. in Lat. 'alauda',
                                            OEng 'læwirki' "lark", OHG 'arut' "ore", Finn. 'rauta' "iron",
                                            possibly English axe, Latin cudo "hit").


                                            After all, how would one get away with claiming the adverb
                                            (preverb/pre/postposition) *ab is IE? It's got an /a/, it's got
                                            a /b/, it's got nothing else, and once you said /a/, and you
                                            said /b/, you'll have to say 'non-IE'


                                            Torsten
                                          • tgpedersen
                                            ... /ur- ... therefore ... *ab ... what ... depending ... Turun ... Silvia Luraghi: Old Hittite Sentence Structure, p. 34 As a consequence of their being
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Feb 23, 2005
                                              > Kuhn: the areas of the ur-/ar-/(ir-) names are relic ares.
                                              >
                                              > He identifies the -pe/-fe suffix (and Lituanian -up-?) as PIE *ap-
                                              > "water" and thinks therefore these composites with the non-IE ar-
                                              /ur-
                                              > placename roots as late. But the suffix is ap-/up- and is
                                              therefore
                                              > itself an non-IE ar-/ur- word-
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I think *ap-/*up- is the origin of the preverbs/pre/postpositions
                                              *ab
                                              > and *up. Since it means also "river", *ab/*up was loaned as a noun
                                              > and perhaps in a single or two cases (locative, allative?). So
                                              what
                                              > we see in Or-pe etc is perhaps "on" or "up the Or- river",
                                              depending
                                              > on whatever old case used to be discernible in the now eroded -pe.
                                              >
                                              > In a language with cases, the number of "semantic cases" can be
                                              > extended by using a noun indicating position, in a positional or
                                              > directional case, as a post/preposition of a noun which is then in
                                              > the genitive or some other suitable case, eg. Finnish 'Porin ja
                                              Turun
                                              > välillä' "between Pori and Turku" (-n genitive, välilleä
                                              > adessive "on the middleroad", thus "on the middleroad of Pori and
                                              > Turku"; 'keskellä järveä' "in the middle of the lake", keski-
                                              > "middle" in the adessive, järveä inessive of järve "lake).
                                              > But one might also see keskellä as an adverb "centrally"
                                              > and järveä as "on the lake".
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > *ab/*up in suitable case also behaves like an adverb (one
                                              > might want to compare it to a similar "international"
                                              > system of directional adverbs, that of 'starboard'
                                              > (Danish styrbord) and 'port' (German Backbord, Danish
                                              > bagbord, French babord)).
                                              >




                                              Silvia Luraghi: Old Hittite Sentence Structure, p. 34
                                              "As a consequence of their being nominal in origin, stative place-
                                              words can take a nominal Attribute in the genitive ..."


                                              Torsten
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