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Re: [tied] Moldova Confusion

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  • Piotr Gasiorowski
    ... From: Mark Odegard To: cybalist@egroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [tied] Moldova Confusion Mark wonders: I wonder what they
    Message 1 of 14 , Sep 3, 2000
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      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 8:52 PM
      Subject: Re: [tied] Moldova Confusion


      Mark wonders: I wonder what they call that chunk of Ukraine between the Dneister [Mark, it may be spelt Dniester, Dn(i)estr or Dnister" but not "Dneister"!] and the Danube. Considering the fact we have the term 'Trans-Dneisterian Republic' for that former part of Moldova east of the Dneister, would it be 'Cis-Dneisterian Ruthenia?'
       
      This coastal strip is known as Southern Ukrainian Bessarabia. Can you see the town of Bilhorod-upon-Dniester on your map? It's ancient Tyras, a Milesian colony established in the 6th c. BC on the Dniester Lagoon. Bilhorod translates its old  Romanian name Citate (Cetatea) Alba 'White Stronghold'. When the Turks seized it in the 15th century, they translated the same name as Akerman, and the town bore that name until very recently. In the 19th century the Polish poet Adam Mickiewicz (my university is named after him) made a trip there and encapsulated his impressions in a beautiful sonnet entitled The Steppes of Akerman -- this is my private name for southern Bessarabia.
       
      Piotr
    • Mark Odegard
      From: Piotr Gasiorowski Mark, it may be spelt Dniester, Dn(i)estr or Dnister but not Dneister ! ... And I think I even know better. Outside of English, /ei/
      Message 2 of 14 , Sep 3, 2000
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        Mark, it may be spelt Dniester, Dn(i)estr or Dnister" but not "Dneister"!

        And I think I even know better. Outside of English, /ei/  is consistently the vowel in 'buy', with /ie/  representing that in 'be'. It's not the nigh-stir, but the knee-stir.
         
        It's also difficult to keep the Dniester and Dnieper clear in one's head. It's rather much the same confusion the ancients seem to have had with the lower Danube Ister and that little river that gives Istria (in Crotia, at the head of the Adriatic, near Trieste) its name. The two Moravas, the two Bugs, these are actually quite easy to keep straight.
         
        Mark.
      • Rex H. McTyeire
        From: Moldova: Early History Moldova s Latin origins can be traced to the period of Roman occupation of nearby Dacia (in present-day Romania, Bulgaria, and
        Message 3 of 14 , Sep 3, 2000
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          From: Moldova: Early History
              Moldova's Latin origins can be traced to the period of Roman occupation of nearby Dacia (in present-day Romania, Bulgaria, and Serbia), ca. A.D. 105-270, when a culture was formed from the intermingling of Roman colonists and the local population. After the Roman Empire and its influence waned and its troops left the region in A.D. 271, a number of groups passed through the area, often violently: Huns, Ostrogoths, and Antes (who were Slavs). The Bulgarian Empire, the Magyars, the Pechenegs, and the Golden Horde (Mongols) also held sway temporarily. In the thirteenth century, Hungary expanded into the area and established a line of fortifications in Moldova near the Siretul River (in present-day Romania) and beyond. The region came under Hungarian suzerainty until an independent Moldovan principality was established by Prince Bogdan in 1349. Originally called Bogdania, the principality stretched from the Carpathian Mountains to the Nistru River and was later renamed Moldova, after the Moldova River in present-day Romania.  Piotr
           
          No contest on the origin of this specific political entity in the region. (Bogdan was from Maramures, BTW) The issue is the local claim that the regional name Moldova was (much) older than this post 1349 renaming of a specific political entity that grew to the Principality of the same name. (And whether it could even predate the River name)  It would seem that any use of Moldova/Moldavia prior to 1349 (14th century) would defeat the above reference....but still leave open the River/Place first issue.  One step at a time:
          From:  A History of Romania -  The Political and Religious Situation East of the Carpathians (12th to 13th  centuries)
           
          1) multiple literary sources dated 12th and 13th century:  "Volohoveni"  is defined as a Romanian state in the "north of Moldavia", some with reference to the capitol city named Bolohovo.
          2) Papal letter to Prince of Hungary, 1234:  requested intervention against "Romanians in Moldavia" on behalf of the bishopric of the Cuman, because they (Moldoveni) had their own 'pseudo bishops' (ie Orthodox hierarchs) and ignored the directives of the Catholic bishop.
          3) German Franciscan Monk, Thomas Tuscus, writes in 1276:  "the Romanians in northern Moldavia were at war with their Ruthenian neighbors."   
           
          Same book: 
              "In subsequent years ..(..referring to a series of leaders expanding from Bogdan's holding).. and Roman I
          (c.1391-1394), the territorial unification of Moldavia, within its historical borders ,was complete."
          (Obviously , this chronicler sees Moldova as something older that was "re-attained" ca 1394, and we are outside Roman province borders so that is not his intent.)  
           
          I think Moldova is older than Bogdania as a place/region name, Piotr.
           
          La Revedere;
          Rex H. McTyeire
          Bucharest, Romania
          <rexbo@...>
           
           
        • Glen Gordon
          ... Erh, I ve been pronouncing it din-KNEE-stir . Is this a silent thing as in pneumonia, psychology and knife? English pronunciation is oh so confusing :) -
          Message 4 of 14 , Sep 4, 2000
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            > And I think I even know better. Outside of English, /ei/ is
            > >consistently the vowel in 'buy', with /ie/ representing that in 'be'.
            > >It's not the nigh-stir, but the knee-stir.

            Erh, I've been pronouncing it "din-KNEE-stir". Is this a silent thing as in
            pneumonia, psychology and knife? English pronunciation is oh so confusing :)

            - gLeN
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          • Piotr Gasiorowski
            ... From: Rex H. McTyeire To: cybalist@egroups.com Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 3:51 AM Subject: Re: [tied] Moldova Confusion I wouldn t contest that. It
            Message 5 of 14 , Sep 4, 2000
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              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 3:51 AM
              Subject: Re: [tied] Moldova Confusion

               
              I wouldn't contest that. It just seems most likely to me, on typological and linguistic grounds, that Moldova was ORIGINALLY a rivername. Moldova (Hungarian Moldva) is precisely what would have resulted from adding a feminising suffix to the adjective *mldu-, and numerous descriptive rivernames are formed from u-stem adjectives in this way.
               
              Piotr
              I think Moldova is older than Bogdania as a place/region name, Piotr.
            • Piotr Gasiorowski
              ... From: Glen Gordon To: cybalist@egroups.com Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 9:31 AM Subject: Re: [tied] Moldova Confusion It s only me, Piotr, packing my
              Message 6 of 14 , Sep 4, 2000
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                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 9:31 AM
                Subject: Re: [tied] Moldova Confusion

                It's only me, Piotr, packing my suitcase.
                 
                1. DNISTER. The Ukrainian pronunciation is ['dnister] ("dneester": two syllables, a tense [i], [d] pronounced).
                 
                2. DNIESTR. The Polish pronunciation is ['dnjestr] ("dnyestr": one syllable, [nj] = palatal nasal like French "gn", voiceless [r], [d] pronounced).
                 
                3. DNESTR. The Russian pronunciation is ['dnjestr], more or less the same as in Polish.
                 
                Impress your friends with your flawless Slavic. If you can't quite make the [dn], "Duh-NIECE-ter" or "Din-YES-ter" should sound tolerable.
                 
                Piotr


                >     And I think I even know better. Outside of English, /ei/  is
                > >consistently the vowel in 'buy', with /ie/  representing that in 'be'.
                > >It's not the nigh-stir, but the knee-stir.

                Erh, I've been pronouncing it "din-KNEE-stir". Is this a silent thing as in
                pneumonia, psychology and knife? English pronunciation is oh so confusing :)

                - gLeN

              • Mark Odegard
                I treat it as a silent letter, like the p in pterydactyl or the ch in chthonic. Duh-neice-ter sounds like the sister of duh-nephew-ster. ... From: Piotr
                Message 7 of 14 , Sep 4, 2000
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                  I treat it as a silent letter, like the p in pterydactyl or the ch in chthonic. Duh-neice-ter sounds like the sister of duh-nephew-ster.
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----

                  It's only me, Piotr, packing my suitcase.
                   
                  1. DNISTER. The Ukrainian pronunciation is ['dnister] ("dneester": two syllables, a tense [i], [d] pronounced).
                   
                  2. DNIESTR. The Polish pronunciation is ['dnjestr] ("dnyestr": one syllable, [nj] = palatal nasal like French "gn", voiceless [r], [d] pronounced).
                   
                  3. DNESTR. The Russian pronunciation is ['dnjestr], more or less the same as in Polish.
                   
                  Impress your friends with your flawless Slavic. If you can't quite make the [dn], "Duh-NIECE-ter" or "Din-YES-ter" should sound tolerable.
                   
                  Piotr


                  >     And I think I even know better. Outside of English, /ei/  is
                  > >consistently the vowel in 'buy', with /ie/  representing that in 'be'.
                  > >It's not the nigh-stir, but the knee-stir.

                  Erh, I've been pronouncing it "din-KNEE-stir". Is this a silent thing as in
                  pneumonia, psychology and knife? English pronunciation is oh so confusing :)

                  - gLeN

                • Steve Woodson
                  ... [eGroups] My Groups | cybalist Main Page | Start a new group! ... Piotr, I accidently deleted your letter on the town of Akerman. Due to its sound I often
                  Message 8 of 14 , Sep 4, 2000
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                    Piotr Gasiorowski wrote:

                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message ----- To: cybalist@egroups.comSent: Monday, September 04, 2000 9:31 AMSubject: Re: [tied] Moldova Confusion
                     It's only me, Piotr, packing my suitcase. 1. DNISTER. The Ukrainian pronunciation is ['dnister] ("dneester": two syllables, a tense [i], [d] pronounced). 2. DNIESTR. The Polish pronunciation is ['dnjestr] ("dnyestr": one syllable, [nj] = palatal nasal like French "gn", voiceless [r], [d] pronounced). 3. DNESTR. The Russian pronunciation is ['dnjestr], more or less the same as in Polish. Impress your friends with your flawless Slavic. If you can't quite make the [dn], "Duh-NIECE-ter" or "Din-YES-ter" should sound tolerable. Piotr
                     

                    >     And I think I even know better. Outside of English, /ei/  is
                    > >consistently the vowel in 'buy', with /ie/  representing that in 'be'.
                    > >It's not the nigh-stir, but the knee-stir.

                    Erh, I've been pronouncing it "din-KNEE-stir". Is this a silent thing as in
                    pneumonia, psychology and knife? English pronunciation is oh so confusing :)

                    - gLeN

                      Piotr,
                        I accidently deleted your letter on the town of Akerman.  Due to its sound I often wondered if it was any way connected with the German settlements in Bessarabia.  They were a little north of Akerman around the cities of Leipzig and Kulm.  I don't have a modern atlas detailed enough to know if either exist today or not.  Oh well, thanks for clearing up one more detail for me.
                                                                                Steve
                  • Glen Gordon
                    ... Erh, I say kuh-thonic too. Yikes. But it could be just me. For a long time, when I was a toddler reading linguistic articles, I thought that akin was
                    Message 9 of 14 , Sep 6, 2000
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                      Mark O:
                      >I treat it as a silent letter, like the p in pterydactyl or the ch in
                      > >chthonic. Duh-neice-ter sounds like the sister of duh-nephew-ster.

                      Erh, I say "kuh-thonic" too. Yikes.

                      But it could be just me. For a long time, when I was a toddler reading
                      linguistic articles, I thought that "akin" was pronounced "achin'" until I
                      realised that it's related (or "akin" :) to "kin". Duh! Oh well.
                      No need to go puh-sychotic about 'ronunciation, I always say.

                      - gLeN
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