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Re: [tied] Re: Kabardian antipassives

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  • petegray
    ... This is partly true of Greek, but are we right to read it back into PIE? Even in Greek the resultative perfect , showing the result of an action
    Message 1 of 59 , Aug 5, 2004
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      > Also, the meaning of the
      > perfect is not so much completion as having an enduring effect.

      This is partly true of Greek, but are we right to read it back into PIE?
      Even in Greek the "resultative perfect", showing the result of an action
      continuing up to the present, is not found as early as Homer (see Szemerenyi
      p293). We do find very early the perfect used for actions which continue
      in their subject, which is closer to a stative, or an antipassive. A large
      number of Homeric perfects indicate attitude or mood, and they describe the
      subject, not the object (e.g.: is ablaze,is astir,is undone, fits, has as a
      share, etc). Verbs which are transitive in later Greek are often
      intransitive as perfects in Homer. (See Monro's Homeric Grammar, p31).

      The perfect in Skt is one of three past tenses which at times are not to be
      distinguished, and when they are distinguished, even scholars fight over the
      difference. In Latin the completion is a stronger element than the
      enduring effect. (Remember Cicero's one-word speech, "vixerunt", meaning
      "their lives are over."; and Vergil's fuit Ilium = Troy is no more) In
      Germanic it appears, in strong verbs, simply as the simple past.

      The meaning of the perfect in PIE is hard to establish. It appears to be a
      highly marked form of the verb, which may have connections in form to the
      middle, and connections in meaning to a stative. But it does seem to
      describe the subject, not the object.

      Peter
    • Torsten
      ... In case someone isn t yet tired of the subject: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65995
      Message 59 of 59 , Mar 3 3:02 AM
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        > For semantic reason I think *Haw-il- vel sim. is a loanword belonging
        > in with a package of astronomo-religious concepts originating with a
        > group known later as
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabians
        > (note the similarity of the Syriac root S-b-' "conversion by
        > submersion"
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabians#Etymology
        > with my proposed *saN- "salt brine hole, with preserving properties"
        > (with derivative *saN-l- "the hole in the sky known as the sun") with
        > the submersion (in brine) imparting some kind of symbolic
        > incorruptibility.

        In case someone isn't yet tired of the subject:
        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65995
        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66006
        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66191


        Torsten
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