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Re: [tied] Old Czech hp án vs. Modern Czech pan, pán

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  • Miguel Carrasquer
    On Mon, 31 May 2004 22:30:32 +0200, Petr Hrubi¹ ... The second option is dear to my heart because I thought of that years ago. However, there are big
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 1, 2004
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      On Mon, 31 May 2004 22:30:32 +0200, Petr Hrubiš
      <hrubisp@...> wrote:

      >There are two discussed etymologies of the Czech expressions for "Mr." (pan) or "lord". (pán)
      >
      >Oldest attested form of both of them is OCz. hpán [hpa:n] which has following possibilities to reconstruct.
      >
      >1. Cz. pan, pán < OCz. hpán < OS *gUpan- where we might see the ablaut *gup > gUp- to *geup- (as in "z^upan")
      >
      >2. Cz. pan, pán was newly recreated after orig. femin. paní [pan^i:] "lady", later also "Mrs." < *pot-n-ija

      The second option is dear to my heart because I thought of
      that years ago. However, there are big problems with a
      derivation from *potnih2: OCz. hpán is one of them, as the
      h- (< *gU-) cannot be explained from an etymon *potn-.
      Another problem is the /a/ vocalism: *potn- should have
      given Slavic *pon-. Even if the /t/ had been voiced to /d/
      before /n/ (cf. gospodI ~ *gosti-pot(n?)-), Winter's law is
      seemingly not triggered before an immediately following
      sonorant.

      As to the first option, I don't know if we can depart from
      an Ablaut pair *geupa:n ~ *gupa:n as if the word was
      directly inherited from PIE. My understanding is that the
      word was borrowed from Iranian, but I can't remember how the
      Iranian prototype was exactly.

      =======================
      Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
      mcv@...
    • andelkod
      Oldest form of that term in Croatia are stone inscriptions from 9. cent. with readings: EGO GASTICA HUPPANUS and PRISTINA IUPANO . One question: Can someone
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 1, 2004
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        Oldest form of that term in Croatia are stone inscriptions from 9.
        cent. with readings:
        "EGO GASTICA HUPPANUS"
        and
        "PRISTINA IUPANO".

        One question:
        Can someone give me etymology of personal names (supposed to be
        slavic) written in Greek as THOUTHEMERIS and FALIMERES?



        --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@w...> wrote:
        > On Mon, 31 May 2004 22:30:32 +0200, Petr Hrubi¹
        > <hrubisp@e...> wrote:
        >
        > >There are two discussed etymologies of the Czech expressions
        for "Mr." (pan) or "lord". (pán)
        > >
        > >Oldest attested form of both of them is OCz. hpán [hpa:n] which
        has following possibilities to reconstruct.
        > >
        > >1. Cz. pan, pán < OCz. hpán < OS *gUpan- where we might see the
        ablaut *gup > gUp- to *geup- (as in "z^upan")
        > >
        > >2. Cz. pan, pán was newly recreated after orig. femin. paní
        [pan^i:] "lady", later also "Mrs." < *pot-n-ija
        >
        > The second option is dear to my heart because I thought of
        > that years ago. However, there are big problems with a
        > derivation from *potnih2: OCz. hpán is one of them, as the
        > h- (< *gU-) cannot be explained from an etymon *potn-.
        > Another problem is the /a/ vocalism: *potn- should have
        > given Slavic *pon-. Even if the /t/ had been voiced to /d/
        > before /n/ (cf. gospodI ~ *gosti-pot(n?)-), Winter's law is
        > seemingly not triggered before an immediately following
        > sonorant.
        >
        > As to the first option, I don't know if we can depart from
        > an Ablaut pair *geupa:n ~ *gupa:n as if the word was
        > directly inherited from PIE. My understanding is that the
        > word was borrowed from Iranian, but I can't remember how the
        > Iranian prototype was exactly.
        >
        > =======================
        > Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
        > mcv@w...
      • tgpedersen
        ... for Mr. (pan) or lord . (pán) ... has following possibilities to reconstruct. ... ablaut *gup gUp- to *geup- (as in z^upan ) ... [pan^i:] lady ,
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 1, 2004
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          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@w...> wrote:
          > On Mon, 31 May 2004 22:30:32 +0200, Petr Hrubi¹
          > <hrubisp@e...> wrote:
          >
          > >There are two discussed etymologies of the Czech expressions
          for "Mr." (pan) or "lord". (pán)
          > >
          > >Oldest attested form of both of them is OCz. hpán [hpa:n] which
          has following possibilities to reconstruct.
          > >
          > >1. Cz. pan, pán < OCz. hpán < OS *gUpan- where we might see the
          ablaut *gup > gUp- to *geup- (as in "z^upan")
          > >
          > >2. Cz. pan, pán was newly recreated after orig. femin. paní
          [pan^i:] "lady", later also "Mrs." < *pot-n-ija
          >
          > The second option is dear to my heart because I thought of
          > that years ago. However, there are big problems with a
          > derivation from *potnih2: OCz. hpán is one of them, as the
          > h- (< *gU-) cannot be explained from an etymon *potn-.
          > Another problem is the /a/ vocalism: *potn- should have
          > given Slavic *pon-. Even if the /t/ had been voiced to /d/
          > before /n/ (cf. gospodI ~ *gosti-pot(n?)-), Winter's law is
          > seemingly not triggered before an immediately following
          > sonorant.
          >
          Burrows: The Sanskrit Language p. 169
          "
          p-ati 'master'

          Footnote
          From pa:- 'to protect, govern'. That the /t/ in this word is suffixal
          is evident from its absence inGk. <despoina>. Therefore <páti-> is to
          pá- (<nr.pa-, etc) as <vr.káti-> to <vr.ka->.
          "

          Torsten
        • Sergejus Tarasovas
          ... undounbtedly stays for *Xvalime^rU (*xvali- imper. of *xvaliti praise , *me^r- (more or less) eminent (the latter occurs in nomina
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 1, 2004
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            > From: andelkod [mailto:andelkod@...]
            >
            > One question:
            > Can someone give me etymology of personal names (supposed to be
            > slavic) written in Greek as THOUTHEMERIS and FALIMERES?
            >

            <pHalimere(:)s> undounbtedly stays for *Xvalime^rU (*xvali- imper. of
            *xvaliti 'praise', *me^r- (more or less) 'eminent' (the latter occurs in
            nomina propria only; may be a native lexeme or a loan from Germanic *me:r-
            -- the jury is still out on that).

            As for <tHoutHemeris> (?), would you re-check the spelling? Does the name
            really contain two thetas? They would look very unusual in a Greek rendering
            of a Slavic name.

            Sergei
          • Miguel Carrasquer
            On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 11:51:31 +0000, andelkod ... I assume these are spellings of z^upan. The HU- in the first one is strange, but seeing that there are G s in
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 1, 2004
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              On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 11:51:31 +0000, andelkod
              <andelkod@...> wrote:

              >Oldest form of that term in Croatia are stone inscriptions from 9.
              >cent. with readings:
              > "EGO GASTICA HUPPANUS"
              >and
              > "PRISTINA IUPANO".

              I assume these are spellings of z^upan. The HU- in the
              first one is strange, but seeing that there are G's in the
              two other words, it can't have anything to do with OCz.
              hpán.


              =======================
              Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
              mcv@...
            • Miguel Carrasquer
              On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 16:20:18 +0000, tgpedersen ... Burrows is wrong. There is no way *pot- can be derived from *poh3-. ======================= Miguel
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 1, 2004
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                On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 16:20:18 +0000, tgpedersen
                <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

                >Burrows: The Sanskrit Language p. 169
                >"
                >p-ati 'master'
                >
                >Footnote
                >From pa:- 'to protect, govern'. That the /t/ in this word is suffixal
                >is evident from its absence inGk. <despoina>. Therefore <páti-> is to
                >pá- (<nr.pa-, etc) as <vr.káti-> to <vr.ka->.
                >"

                Burrows is wrong. There is no way *pot- can be derived from
                *poh3-.

                =======================
                Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
                mcv@...
              • andelkod
                ... the name ... rendering ... Sorry, greek original is: TZOUTZEMERIS (Τζουτζήμερις)
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 2, 2004
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                  --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Sergejus Tarasovas"
                  <S.Tarasovas@s...> wrote:
                  > > From: andelkod [mailto:andelkod@y...]
                  > >

                  > As for <tHoutHemeris> (?), would you re-check the spelling? Does
                  the name
                  > really contain two thetas? They would look very unusual in a Greek
                  rendering
                  > of a Slavic name.
                  >
                  > Sergei

                  Sorry, greek original is: TZOUTZEMERIS (Τζουτζήμερις)
                • tgpedersen
                  ... suffixal ... to ... Not even zero grade *pH3ti- ? Torsten
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 2, 2004
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                    --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@w...> wrote:
                    > On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 16:20:18 +0000, tgpedersen
                    > <tgpedersen@h...> wrote:
                    >
                    > >Burrows: The Sanskrit Language p. 169
                    > >"
                    > >p-ati 'master'
                    > >
                    > >Footnote
                    > >From pa:- 'to protect, govern'. That the /t/ in this word is
                    suffixal
                    > >is evident from its absence inGk. <despoina>. Therefore <páti-> is
                    to
                    > >pá- (<nr.pa-, etc) as <vr.káti-> to <vr.ka->.
                    > >"
                    >
                    > Burrows is wrong. There is no way *pot- can be derived from
                    > *poh3-.
                    >
                    >

                    Not even zero grade *pH3ti- ?

                    Torsten
                  • Sergejus Tarasovas
                    ... Looks as if from *C^udjIme^rI or *TjudjIme^rI with *c^udjI -- a possessive adj. from *c^udo wonder , *tjudjI foreign, somebody else s (both with
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 2, 2004
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                      > From: andelkod [mailto:andelkod@...]
                      >
                      > Sorry, greek original is: TZOUTZEMERIS (Τζουτζήμερις) (<Tzoutzé:meris> [tsu'tsimeris]-- ST)
                      >

                      Looks as if from *C^udjIme^rI or *TjudjIme^rI with *c^udjI -- a possessive adj. from *c^udo 'wonder', *tjudjI 'foreign, somebody else's' (both with word-final vocalism (-I) -- this is legal in Slavic compound proper names), but I must admit I've never come across a Slavic compound proper name with these components (*c^ud-,*tjudj-) before. Other ideas?

                      Sergei
                    • Miguel Carrasquer
                      On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 09:25:40 +0000, tgpedersen ... That would give Skt. *piti- (or *biti-). The only possibility might be a zero-grade *ph3-ot- (as in nr.pá-
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 2, 2004
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                        On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 09:25:40 +0000, tgpedersen
                        <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

                        >--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@w...> wrote:
                        >> On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 16:20:18 +0000, tgpedersen
                        >> <tgpedersen@h...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >> >Burrows: The Sanskrit Language p. 169
                        >> >"
                        >> >p-ati 'master'
                        >> >
                        >> >Footnote
                        >> >From pa:- 'to protect, govern'. That the /t/ in this word is
                        >suffixal
                        >> >is evident from its absence inGk. <despoina>. Therefore <páti-> is
                        >to
                        >> >pá- (<nr.pa-, etc) as <vr.káti-> to <vr.ka->.
                        >> >"
                        >>
                        >> Burrows is wrong. There is no way *pot- can be derived from
                        >> *poh3-.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >Not even zero grade *pH3ti- ?

                        That would give Skt. *piti- (or *biti-).

                        The only possibility might be a zero-grade *ph3-ot- (as in
                        nr.pá- < *h2nr-ph3-ó-), if that hadn't given *bot-, but that
                        would be a very peculiar root structure. On the other hand,
                        it would explain the persistent o-grade in the word...


                        =======================
                        Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
                        mcv@...
                      • tgpedersen
                        ... Yes, that s a problem, right? I was thinking of looking at it from the semantic angle, starting all over from a meaning something like above/below
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jun 3, 2004
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                          --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@w...> wrote:
                          > On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 09:25:40 +0000, tgpedersen
                          > <tgpedersen@h...> wrote:
                          >
                          > >--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@w...>
                          wrote:
                          > >> On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 16:20:18 +0000, tgpedersen
                          > >> <tgpedersen@h...> wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >> >Burrows: The Sanskrit Language p. 169
                          > >> >"
                          > >> >p-ati 'master'
                          > >> >
                          > >> >Footnote
                          > >> >From pa:- 'to protect, govern'. That the /t/ in this word is
                          > >suffixal
                          > >> >is evident from its absence inGk. <despoina>. Therefore <páti-
                          > is
                          > >to
                          > >> >pá- (<nr.pa-, etc) as <vr.káti-> to <vr.ka->.
                          > >> >"
                          > >>
                          > >> Burrows is wrong. There is no way *pot- can be derived from
                          > >> *poh3-.
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > >Not even zero grade *pH3ti- ?
                          >
                          > That would give Skt. *piti- (or *biti-).
                          >
                          > The only possibility might be a zero-grade *ph3-ot- (as in
                          > nr.pá- < *h2nr-ph3-ó-), if that hadn't given *bot-, but that
                          > would be a very peculiar root structure. On the other hand,
                          > it would explain the persistent o-grade in the word...
                          >
                          >

                          Yes, that's a problem, right? I was thinking of looking at it from
                          the semantic angle, starting all over from a meaning something
                          like "above/below" (whichever!) and get that to encompass *po-
                          "dominate", *p-d- "foot", *pa:- "let graze" (on the low lush banks
                          of a river). Of course normally there's no good path (there that
                          word was again) from /a/ to /o:/. The exception, curiosly enough, is
                          the Nordwestblock (ex. <hook>, German <Haken>, <cake>, Dutch
                          <koek>). That, incidentally, would also solve a problem I have
                          getting from *apa- to German Ufer, Dutch <oever>, which BTW involves
                          that pesky water word again. I'l have to find some way of
                          manipulating a long sequence of loans and developments.
                          And BTW, as Kuhn points out, many localised Celtic/Italic/Germanic
                          words (Gothic athn-, Latin annus comes to mind) have /a/ as stem
                          vowel.

                          Torsten
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